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Classic != better/Fireballs as the thing that sets SF apart from others-Discuss (Read 9298 times)

Started by Alhambra, October 24, 2008, 05:23:10 am
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c001357

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#21  October 25, 2008, 06:50:21 am
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oh well, all right then

SF4 is cool

edit: deep gameplay? how about gameplay so deep you drown in its fustrations?
Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 07:17:11 am by c001357

the_mith

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#22  October 25, 2008, 01:40:17 pm
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c001357 said, October 25, 2008, 06:25:42 am
But the funny thing is... well, there's nowhere left for the game itself to go!

Well, the problem is that the game has simply grown stale. And not because no one is trying new things, it's because there is absolutely nothing new left in this game to try. I think the game is literally at a point where nothing new can be discovered at all.

Erm... Isn't this a little silly?? With any fighting game (or any game period) there is only a certain point you can reach.

Looking at fighting games specifically, every character has certain moves and combos coded in which is all they can do save for glitches in game mechanics. Once all characters have showen their moves and combos and exploited the game glitches then of course theres nothing new to discover, you've discovered all there is to get out of the game! If anything the console version of SF3:3S has "system direction" which adds new elements to the game play but obviously this is limited as well because it can only change certain aspects.

The game can't magically grow and get new features.

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PotS

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#23  October 25, 2008, 02:05:01 pm
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Byakko

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#24  October 25, 2008, 03:53:43 pm
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P.o.t.S. said, October 25, 2008, 02:05:01 pm
Another reason (article written by S-Kill, who helps running EVO):
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=34752
But... That article is retarded :blank: fireballs lolwut ? Not only the argument is wrong in 2D (it often enables "repeated Hadouken" face-offs as well as the usual Hadouken->Shouryuuken tactic, and he just brushes that by boasting about how it sets an obstacle that one must overcome, how are these two tactics any good ?) but also for 3D (weapons, characters have limbs or whatever that stretch, and, dun dun dun ! some 3D fighting games have fireballs too... And pick any DBZ game and fireballs are not only present but also become irrelevant thanks to how you can just dash the same distance in a split second) and then he acts like MvC beam-friendliness is a good thing.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 04:00:38 pm by [B]yakko

PotS

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#25  October 25, 2008, 04:13:18 pm
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[B]yakko said, October 25, 2008, 03:53:43 pm
how are these two tactics any good ?
For the reasons stated in the article, i.e. fights don't get stale if characters are too far apart, and allows set-ups.
"Repeated Hadouken" isn't a bad thing because they require correct spacing from P1 and are a dumb move once P2 gets outside that zone.  This is something KOF and SF3 players don't really understand because of the presence of rolls and whatnot (which is fine), but such fireball wars in SF aren't hard to get around and more often end up with the char who threw one projectile too many being jump attacked than with the Hadouken->Shoryuken tactic (example).
For all this, I mean except older SF2 versions where fireballs can dominate some chars.

And he's not defending MvC beams, just says how they don't have the same gameplay depth of a normal projectile, and then how that's compensated by the presence of strikers... but don't ask me to defend Capcom based on the VS games haha.
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Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 05:07:49 pm by P.o.t.S.

Byakko

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#26  October 25, 2008, 05:14:01 pm
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"Repeated Hadouken" isn't a bad thing because they require correct spacing from P1 and are a dumb move once P2 gets outside that zone. [...]
The only thing is that it forces the characters to come close to each other *sooner* than by just doing without the fireballs. With fireballs, there's only so many things you can do to get out of the infinite loop : jump attack or roll. Rolling is... Basically ignoring the fireballs, meaning doing nothing more than forcing the players to get closer earlier than if the fireballs wasn't here in the first place. Jump attack is what it is - limited. By that reasoning, fireballs would only reduce the number of things you can do. Especially in 2D where you can only go either up or forward, and fireballs suppress one of these two options.
Granted, with the roll, you can do some fine setup through fireballs depending on how the roll works - how early you recover from rolling, how early you're vulnerable...
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 05:19:16 pm by [B]yakko

c001357

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#27  October 25, 2008, 05:20:24 pm
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you haven't counted the different things each games and characters deal with this.
plus the human factor - how long can the player keep doing a special motion?

Bastard Mami

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#28  October 25, 2008, 07:15:48 pm
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You can just walk and block.

Alhambra

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#29  October 26, 2008, 07:00:29 am
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I can't help but lol at the fact that one stray comment I posted caused all this debate. Fireballs have been annoying since they first appeared, but they've never broken a game... fireballs definitely don't break SF3 (any of them) as far as I've seen. Truth be told, I hardly see people use them.

Byakko

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#30  October 26, 2008, 12:18:22 pm
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None of the above was responding to a comment of yours, and I haven't said anything about breaking a game either. I'm saying that the article is sacralizing fireballs as the ultimate difference between a 2D game and 3D game, wrongly so both for how fireballs also exist in 3D game and for how fireballs are definitely not the best thing there is in 2D fighting games.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

c001357

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#31  October 26, 2008, 12:40:09 pm
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  • all right, there might be fireballs in 3d games but you can easily dodge them anyway. Note how he recognizes Virtual-on.
  • do you have a better idea?
  • requesting the last few pages to be separated.
  • 2nd part.

PotS

Re: Classic != better/Fireballs as the thing that sets SF apart from others-Discuss
#32  October 26, 2008, 02:31:31 pm
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He didn't really add much there. :P
Was this really worth splitting? Only a handful of posts are relevant to the new title, and unless someone starts saying X game sucks it's gonna stay like that (be my guests, haha).
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Byakko

Re: Classic != better/Fireballs as the thing that sets SF apart from others-Discuss
#33  October 26, 2008, 04:01:46 pm
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all right, there might be fireballs in 3d games but you can easily dodge them anyway.
That's my point. And why are you saying "alright, maybe X, BUT Y" and then ask me if I have a better idea like I was arguing this with you ? And a better idea for what anyway ? The only thing I'm saying is that this article uses wrong arguments to differenciate 2D from 3D.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

PotS

Re: Classic != better/Fireballs as the thing that sets SF apart from others-Discuss
#34  October 26, 2008, 07:01:18 pm
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If a game has projectiles that can be so easily dodge, it might've just as well not have them, only use in theory would be stopping a move that was made from across the screen but that doesn't happen (or isn't supposed to). KOF MI is a good example of this, while the use of fireballs in KOF was already limited, in MI it practically stopped existing.

Btw, and referring to the previous post, in DBZ Tenkaichi (can only speak for 2 and 3) you can actually do stuff with fireballs, either supers or charged ones (just not with the rapid type), I personally liked to throw a max charged one then get to P2 before it did and break his guard, so when it got there it added to the combo.
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Bastard Mami

Re: Classic != better/Fireballs as the thing that sets SF apart from others-Discuss
#35  October 26, 2008, 07:37:28 pm
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kof dropped fireballs to diferentiate the characters more (try playing 94 or 95 and compare it to the later kofs).

c001357

Re: Classic != better/Fireballs as the thing that sets SF apart from others-Discuss
#36  October 27, 2008, 03:27:00 pm
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[B]yakko said, October 26, 2008, 04:01:46 pm
And why are you saying "alright, maybe X, BUT Y" and then ask me if I have a better idea like I was arguing this with you ?

I only wanted your opinion. Just interested in what you think.

[B]yakko said, October 26, 2008, 04:01:46 pm
And a better idea for what anyway ? The only thing I'm saying is that this article uses wrong arguments to differenciate 2D from 3D.

I think its mostly about controlling space. Its easier to do that in 2D games, you know?

Bastard Mami

Re: Classic != better/Fireballs as the thing that sets SF apart from others-Discuss
#37  October 27, 2008, 05:03:53 pm
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I wonder if the discussion is even worth it; is not like any of us is expert at both 2d and 3d fighting games.

Shaggy

Re: Classic != better/Fireballs as the thing that sets SF apart from others-Disc
#38  October 27, 2008, 08:06:32 pm
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I like what the article said about the use of fireballs in 2d and 3d games, and their differences.  As mentioned above the KOF: MI made most fireballs useless and same goes for most other 3d fighters.  The only 3d game(s) i've come across where fireballs still have a purpose is the Rival School/ Project Justice series.  Yes, they were still easier to get around and all with there being a side step but their priority was higher in those games than recent 2d to 3d efforts.  It's a shame more 2d games taken to 3d haven't used that series as a basis because while everything moved in 3d you could still carry over some of the same fireball set ups from a 2d game.
(i know this rant was slightly off topic, but just wanted to put in my 2 cents)

felineki

Re: STREET FIGHTER 4!!!
#39  October 27, 2008, 08:17:35 pm
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[B]yakko said, October 25, 2008, 03:53:43 pm
(it often enables "repeated Hadouken" face-offs as well as the usual Hadouken->Shouryuuken tactic, and he just brushes that by boasting about how it sets an obstacle that one must overcome, how are these two tactics any good ?)
How is crouch MK -> Super any good?

PotS

Re: Classic != better/Fireballs as the thing that sets SF apart from others-Discuss
#40  October 27, 2008, 08:26:11 pm
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Haruhi said, October 27, 2008, 05:03:53 pm
I wonder if the discussion is even worth it; is not like any of us is expert at both 2d and 3d fighting games.
It's more about SF3 vs SF2/SF4 and the role of projectiles and whatnot, the 2D vs 3D article was just a bit thrown in against SF3.

Shaggy said, October 27, 2008, 08:06:32 pm
(i know this rant was slightly off topic, but just wanted to put in my 2 cents)
That wasn't really off-topic.
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