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Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X. Updated 12/10/18 (Read 9861 times)

Started by R@CE AKIR@, December 04, 2018, 10:03:52 pm
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Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X. Updated 12/10/18
#1  December 04, 2018, 10:03:52 pm
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Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 06:55:14 am by ~Hale "R@CE" Caesar~
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@
#2  December 04, 2018, 10:14:04 pm
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Now this looks interesting. Gonna test him out and report here if i find any bugs.

-Burning Deshikakato can cancel into itself
-Multi colored hit sparks do not seem to work even when the value is = 2
-he moves forward a tad bit near the end of his backwards roll
-Collision boxes could use some work

Pretty fun character overall. nice job race.
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"Oh its all happening! Everything that's ever existed is happening at once!"
Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 11:40:46 pm by ReddBrink
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@
#3  December 04, 2018, 10:15:30 pm
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awesome our very first fighter's history character in PotS style
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@
#4  December 04, 2018, 10:41:55 pm
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He looks fun AF, I'll have to test him out once my PC is back up and running. Good to see you back in action again R@ce!
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@
#5  December 04, 2018, 11:53:24 pm
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Awesome!
The result is just awesome!
R@ce, your comeback make a great addition to mugen world.
Leo was great, but your Zazie is a masterpiece!

I hope you will continue... ^^
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@
#6  December 05, 2018, 12:10:22 am
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I say this with all due respect, but I really think you are rushing on your releases. This Zazie needs a lot of work. None of this is a personal attack, it is intended to help your character improve. You can feel free to disregard all of this if you want, but I want you to understand why people might have issues with your work.

First off, the CLSN boxes. You've said before, I believe, that you don't really know much about CLSN boxes? I don't remember exactly what you said, but its clear from Zazie that you don't know (or care) about the hitboxes. I really think you should try and fix them. They make your character very imbalanced. And these CLSNs are BAD. They look like you used some tool to put them on automatically, because I find it hard to believe you sat there and actually drew these boxes:



If you don't understand the problem here, I'll break it down for you. Firstly, that sliver of blue clsn/hurtbox will be extremely hard to punish under all of that. It just makes it too good,  you can think of it as "priority" if that makes it easier, but priority isnt really a thing. The issue is that his hitboxes, and this is almost everything he has, are just too big, and his hurtboxes too small in comparison. In effect, he beats out anyone with hurtboxes actually balanced to be fair. And secondly, it is just ugly and unprofessional to have that many boxes- not only will they cause weird problems with your character, it gives off a vibe that you do not care about them. I would like to believe you care about quality in your releases.

What my friend Arpa used to say in regards to hitboxes is always the best advice I can give: functionality over realism! You don't need to use 5+ boxes to cover every bit of the character, you just need hitboxes that get the job done. 2 boxes for the body in a neutral stand animation works, and then an extra blue clsn for the leg of that kick, and one red hitbox. You usually extend the red clsn slightly outside the blue, but you want enough blue that it could trade or potentially be stuffed or punished for the sake of balance, unless you intend that kick to be unpunishable. Look at how KOF's hitboxes look:



See that? Simple and to the point, but also functional enough- it leaves her exposed  that she can be punished by a jumping attack, or a fireball or something. In the case of Zazie there is so little blue that his animation ends and he can block, making it extremely hard to punish him.

Now onto other things...

First off, why is his stand animation looped so fast? It looks unnatural, his other animations aren't sped up like this, I suggest making the keyframes last longer.

Cancelling his QCF +  into his QCFx2 + K super causes it to whiff on the last hit, Training by Stupa drops to the floor instead. It only hits the full super in the corner.

CTRL+D gives a constant error message to this effect:



Did you remove his ducking and step back moves? They are a big part of Zazie and imo it severely limits him to not have his duck > hellfire and other variations. I suppose you meant to replace them with back and forward rolls, but I cant seem to get them to even work on this character to do a comparison.

You should use training by Stupa to check his frame data, he has pretty good advantage on block for most of his basics on top of the CLSNs, making him even harder to punish.

The most important thing is this... I play a lot of Zazie in the source game, and I know this is not supposed to be accurate, but he just doesn't feel right, he doesn't play like Zazie should, he just feels like a template with his sprites added. When I play Infinite, PoTS, Divine characters by the original authors I can at least get a feel that they fit the niche and game feel of the original characters with their conversions. That is lacking here. Giving him a fireball and a tatsu makes no sense, if you kept in his hellfire, vulcan hooks and his feints he would feel that much more faithful and also unique!

My genuine advice to you is to start from square one on this character, and to load up Karnov/FHD when you get a chance and try some arcade runs or matches with Zazie, and look up videos of him at least. He has a very unique and defined playstyle that I think you will benefit from experiencing if you have not already. I think you should, please, at very least redo his CLSNs and consider the feints and removing the fireball,

What I also highly recommend you do for your next update is to open your character up in fighter factory 3, and navigate to the issues tab on the bottom. He has a lot of issues in his code that you should think about cleaning up, maybe not the Beta/1.0 deprecated parameters, but there are other issues.

I hope you view this seriously, as something meant to help you and this character improve. I and many others can answer questions you have, if needed.
Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 01:18:20 am by Umezono
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@
#7  December 05, 2018, 02:04:13 am
  • ****
  • This big boy spitting out 250 rounds a minute!!!
    • USA
    • https://infiniteff.forumotion.com/t533-all-chars-by-rce-akir-jeanne-d-arc-released
I say this with all due respect, but I really think you are rushing on your releases. This Zazie needs a lot of work. None of this is a personal attack, it is intended to help your character improve. You can feel free to disregard all of this if you want, but I want you to understand why people might have issues with your work.

First off, the CLSN boxes. You've said before, I believe, that you don't really know much about CLSN boxes? I don't remember exactly what you said, but its clear from Zazie that you don't know (or care) about the hitboxes. I really think you should try and fix them. They make your character very imbalanced. And these CLSNs are BAD. They look like you used some tool to put them on automatically, because I find it hard to believe you sat there and actually drew these boxes:



If you don't understand the problem here, I'll break it down for you. Firstly, that sliver of blue clsn/hurtbox will be extremely hard to punish under all of that. It just makes it too good,  you can think of it as "priority" if that makes it easier, but priority isnt really a thing. The issue is that his hitboxes, and this is almost everything he has, are just too big, and his hurtboxes too small in comparison. In effect, he beats out anyone with hurtboxes actually balanced to be fair. And secondly, it is just ugly and unprofessional to have that many boxes- not only will they cause weird problems with your character, it gives off a vibe that you do not care about them. I would like to believe you care about quality in your releases.

What my friend Arpa used to say in regards to hitboxes is always the best advice I can give: functionality over realism! You don't need to use 5+ boxes to cover every bit of the character, you just need hitboxes that get the job done. 2 boxes for the body in a neutral stand animation works, and then an extra blue clsn for the leg of that kick, and one red hitbox. You usually extend the red clsn slightly outside the blue, but you want enough blue that it could trade or potentially be stuffed or punished for the sake of balance, unless you intend that kick to be unpunishable. Look at how KOF's hitboxes look:



See that? Simple and to the point, but also functional enough- it leaves her exposed  that she can be punished by a jumping attack, or a fireball or something. In the case of Zazie there is so little blue that his animation ends and he can block, making it extremely hard to punish him.

Now onto other things...

First off, why is his stand animation looped so fast? It looks unnatural, his other animations aren't sped up like this, I suggest making the keyframes last longer.

Cancelling his QCF +  into his QCFx2 + K super causes it to whiff on the last hit, Training by Stupa drops to the floor instead. It only hits the full super in the corner.

CTRL+D gives a constant error message to this effect:



Did you remove his ducking and step back moves? They are a big part of Zazie and imo it severely limits him to not have his duck > hellfire and other variations. I suppose you meant to replace them with back and forward rolls, but I cant seem to get them to even work on this character to do a comparison.

You should use training by Stupa to check his frame data, he has pretty good advantage on block for most of his basics on top of the CLSNs, making him even harder to punish.

The most important thing is this... I play a lot of Zazie in the source game, and I know this is not supposed to be accurate, but he just doesn't feel right, he doesn't play like Zazie should, he just feels like a template with his sprites added. When I play Infinite, PoTS, Divine characters by the original authors I can at least get a feel that they fit the niche and game feel of the original characters with their conversions. That is lacking here. Giving him a fireball and a tatsu makes no sense, if you kept in his hellfire, vulcan hooks and his feints he would feel that much more faithful and also unique!

My genuine advice to you is to start from square one on this character, and to load up Karnov/FHD when you get a chance and try some arcade runs or matches with Zazie, and look up videos of him at least. He has a very unique and defined playstyle that I think you will benefit from experiencing if you have not already. I think you should, please, at very least redo his CLSNs and consider the feints and removing the fireball,

What I also highly recommend you do for your next update is to open your character up in fighter factory 3, and navigate to the issues tab on the bottom. He has a lot of issues in his code that you should think about cleaning up, maybe not the Beta/1.0 deprecated parameters, but there are other issues.

I hope you view this seriously, as something meant to help you and this character improve. I and many others can answer questions you have, if needed.

I appreciate the feedback. I do. Your points are well taken. However, when I release things, I already know there will be issues, and I know there will be bugs found. I dont make betas or anything, I would rather do this, get the feedback I need and then go about my business.

The hit boxes like I said, im not big on, however I know these same ones were used by others and it wasn't an issue with them. I know how hitboxes work where you don't need to use more a lot but I already used what was there previously in the animation file.

His standing animation was already like that from the beginning. I saw no issue with it.

The Ctrl D thing I wasn't aware of. Good find, I looked into and that was a mistake i wasnt aware of when i put the new sprites back in. Some how the palettes that change the color of the hitsparks got deleted so i will definitely fix that asap. I'll do a quick update to fix it

As far as anything different with the things ive added in or changed, I simply did it because of personal preference.  Characters gameplay and move sets change all the time in certain games. While I did't include the step back and doge, I felt no need for it if the general system of this gameplay style already includes it, where as in source game he was pretty much the only one who had it. But that's just my opinion tho.

Im sorry if there are things you dont agree with as far as what ive added but these things will be staying. I respect your honest opinion so please dont take what ive said as a disregard of what your saying. Sometimes when you make things you will please others and sometimes you won't.

I'll try to go back in and polish up the hitboxes tho., Thanks for the feedback man

(Guys go back and redownload him to fix the palette color issue on the hitspatks)
Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 02:34:27 am by ~Hale "R@CE" Caesar~
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X.
#8  December 05, 2018, 08:43:17 am
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Here's my feedback on the character:

-Standing and walking animations feel too fast (It feels like the game's speed was increased, but it's just the character himself).
-I think it's better if you change Zazie's run into a dash since the source game doesn't have a running animation (Plus he doesn't have an animation where the character slides after he stops running).
-The landing animation has not been changed (I don't know why would do it for Leonardo and then skip the rest. Plus his ground Senpu Fire Kick uses the new one. I know you said it's just ground fx a few weeks back, but at least try to be consistent with your other characters).
-There's is no landing fx if performs Senpu Fire Kick in the air and his back dodge since he jumps and lands on two feet.
-The fire sounds don't cut off after he finishes his Senpu Fire Kick.
-Burning Deshikakato and Crazy Vulcan Hooks can be super cancelled to each other and themselves.
-Burning Deshikakato gains meter if it hits successfully.
-Ultimate Hell Driver can't be blocked (Not sure if it's intentional).
-If the opponent blocks Volcanic Eruption, they can freely move around safely (but can't attack Zazie) until the super ends.

That's all for now. Will post again I find anything else.
I will still do detail and aesthetic feedback for the rest.
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X.
#9  December 05, 2018, 11:33:02 am
  • ****
  • This big boy spitting out 250 rounds a minute!!!
    • USA
    • https://infiniteff.forumotion.com/t533-all-chars-by-rce-akir-jeanne-d-arc-released
Here's my feedback on the character:

-Standing and walking animations feel too fast (It feels like the game's speed was increased, but it's just the character himself).
-I think it's better if you change Zazie's run into a dash since the source game doesn't have a running animation (Plus he doesn't have an animation where the character slides after he stops running).
-The landing animation has not been changed (I don't know why would do it for Leonardo and then skip the rest. Plus his ground Senpu Fire Kick uses the new one. I know you said it's just ground fx a few weeks back, but at least try to be consistent with your other characters).
-There's is no landing fx if performs Senpu Fire Kick in the air and his back dodge since he jumps and lands on two feet.
-The fire sounds don't cut off after he finishes his Senpu Fire Kick.
-Burning Deshikakato and Crazy Vulcan Hooks can be super cancelled to each other and themselves.
-Burning Deshikakato gains meter if it hits successfully.
-Ultimate Hell Driver can't be blocked (Not sure if it's intentional).
-If the opponent blocks Volcanic Eruption, they can freely move around safely (but can't attack Zazie) until the super ends.

That's all for now. Will post again I find anything else.

Thanks for the feedback. And wow, obviously the landing FX was something I missed or just didnt think about because like I told you before, its not something I find as a big deal. Your literally THE ONLY person who takes issue with it lol But its nothing that cant be changed easily. its merely something that i forgot to do.

As for everything else, thanks for finding this stuff out man. I"ll look into it
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X.
#10  December 05, 2018, 12:52:27 pm
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Thanks for the feedback. And wow, obviously the landing FX was something I missed or just didnt think about because like I told you before, its not something I find as a big deal. Your literally THE ONLY person who takes issue with it lol But its nothing that cant be changed easily. its merely something that i forgot to do.

As for everything else, thanks for finding this stuff out man. I"ll look into it
No problem. And I apologize if I am being a little antsy about it. I'm a stickler when it comes to aesthetics as I tend to notice them more easily than actual bugs. I would have told you on your earlier PotS/Infinite style characters, but I wasn't very active with feedback at the time. Never knew I was the only one and I guess other people who post feedback pay more attention to the game breaking issues than the small details that can be easily missed. I shall not mention it anymore that way I won't bug you about it from here on out.

Sure thing. Glad I could help.
I will still do detail and aesthetic feedback for the rest.
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X.
#11  December 05, 2018, 12:54:00 pm
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First of all, I only watched the preview video nor did I play the source game, so I am just judging from that.

To the point, the character looks like he's on turbo, maybe slow down his (standing) animation a bit?

My next point is about that special move where he punches multiple times. (About the 50 second mark in your video.)
You gave the character hires effects, why not replace the aura in the sprites as well?
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X.
#12  December 05, 2018, 01:26:50 pm
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  • This big boy spitting out 250 rounds a minute!!!
    • USA
    • https://infiniteff.forumotion.com/t533-all-chars-by-rce-akir-jeanne-d-arc-released
First of all, I only watched the preview video nor did I play the source game, so I am just judging from that.

To the point, the character looks like he's on turbo, maybe slow down his (standing) animation a bit?

My next point is about that special move where he punches multiple times. (About the 50 second mark in your video.)
You gave the character hires effects, why not replace the aura in the sprites as well?

That's more of a personal preference kind of thing because that's exactly the same speed he had originally from his own game

And about his Vulcan Punch, I would do that if I knew how to sprite and successfully separate them from the charscter but I don't and it's not really bad how it is. Again that's still more a personal preference kind of thing. I might consider it tho if some separates them from Zazie
Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 02:41:51 pm by ~Hale "R@CE" Caesar~
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X.
#13  December 05, 2018, 01:31:21 pm
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No problem. And I apologize if I am being a little antsy about it. I'm a stickler when it comes to aesthetics as I tend to notice them more easily than actual bugs. I would have told you on your earlier PotS/Infinite style characters, but I wasn't very active with feedback at the time. Never knew I was the only one and I guess other people who post feedback pay more attention to the game breaking issues than the small details that can be easily missed. I shall not mention it anymore that way I won't bug you about it from here on out.

Sure thing. Glad I could help.

You aren't being antsy here as your feedbacks are completely legitimate and the aesthetic-related bugs are just as important as other kind of bugs, which any competent authors should have fixed them in a heartbeat. I also noticed that problem but I didn't post it because I had a feeling that R@ce liked it that way so you shouldn't be worried to be the only one who noticed it. Your feedbacks should really be more appreciated and there is nothing for you to be sorry about.
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X.
#14  December 05, 2018, 02:26:23 pm
  • ****
  • This big boy spitting out 250 rounds a minute!!!
    • USA
    • https://infiniteff.forumotion.com/t533-all-chars-by-rce-akir-jeanne-d-arc-released
No problem. And I apologize if I am being a little antsy about it. I'm a stickler when it comes to aesthetics as I tend to notice them more easily than actual bugs. I would have told you on your earlier PotS/Infinite style characters, but I wasn't very active with feedback at the time. Never knew I was the only one and I guess other people who post feedback pay more attention to the game breaking issues than the small details that can be easily missed. I shall not mention it anymore that way I won't bug you about it from here on out.

Sure thing. Glad I could help.

Yeah you don't have to apologize at all dude. Don't take what I said the wrong way. It's nothing wrong with you pointing it out. I appreciate your feedback dude because it helps me fix what's wrong with my character and I definitely want that. I just noticed that it really bugs you about the landing FX not being changed is all bro lol. Like I said before its not a big deal, I'll make sure it's changed.

And one more thing, I want to point out, I appreciate everybody's feedback and I always thanked everybody for it. Some things I will change and fix and certain things I might not depending on what it is or etc (Like a personal preference thing) But at the end of the day your feedback although appreciated it's still my choice whether or not to follow up on it. And judging by the many updates I always do, I do listen to most of it, if not all.
Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 02:33:42 pm by ~Hale "R@CE" Caesar~
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X.
#15  December 05, 2018, 03:22:43 pm
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Holy Shit this is epic!!!

I've always wanted Zazie and Clown from FHD to translate into this sort of style! Thank you so much.
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Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X.
#16  December 05, 2018, 03:43:27 pm
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That's more of a personal preference kind of thing because that's exactly the same speed he had originally from his own game

And about his Vulcan Punch, I would do that if I knew how to sprite and successfully separate them from the charscter but I don't and it's not really bad how it is. Again that's still more a personal preference kind of thing. I might consider it tho if some separates them from Zazie

I totally agree, it's a personal thing. Or rather design choices.

For the vulcan punch, maybe someone talented can give you a hand in the effects.

If you got the effects, you only need to remove the aura from the sprites.
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X.
#17  December 08, 2018, 11:36:58 am
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After testing, I have to say it's not so perfect, but I can see you put some effortsd on it.

A lot of stuff have been reported already.

Visually I would say, during the super move when he finishes with german suplex slam, he should have a different pose until he actually slams the opponent. Just a detail, but would looks better.

Same for his crouch HK, that looks a little cheap in term of animation, since it's like MK but with some velocity.

Otherwise I really like what you did visually with the sprites.
I'm really curious about all the steps you followed.
Scalling, reduicing the amont of colors, CS some parts, redraw some parts? Can you explain a bit, I'm curious! ^^

I really hope we'll have the chance to see more FHD characters, It's good to have SNK characters, but other licences need some love, just imagine POTS/cvs style for ADK characters, Power Instinct series...
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X. Updated 12/10/18
#18  December 10, 2018, 07:08:33 am
  • ****
  • This big boy spitting out 250 rounds a minute!!!
    • USA
    • https://infiniteff.forumotion.com/t533-all-chars-by-rce-akir-jeanne-d-arc-released
Zazie Muhaba Updated 12/10/2018

- Redid pretty much all collision boxes
- Added Zazie's Duck & Step Back special move (See Config)
- Adjusted Standing Animation Speed
- Fixed Palette Issue with Hitsparks
- Adjusted Animation Speed On Hard version of Deshikakato
- Tweaked the shading on Zazie's left foot
- Adjusted Velocity on Roll Back
- Made it so now all super shouldn't be able to cancel into themselves
- Fixed Hell Fire Infinite in the corner
- Adjusted Landing FX Animation
- Fixed it where fire sound will not continue on landing in the Senpu Fire Kick
- Added Landing FX to Air Senpu Fire Kick
- Fixed it where Burning Deshikakato doesn't gain meter
- Minor tweaks


More updates & fixes to come.
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X. Updated 12/10/18
#19  December 10, 2018, 07:43:31 am
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  • I'm 100% Team OHMSBY now.
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When I clicked the page to your OneDrive, I noticed the dates of Zazie and Leonardo and they have been on the drive since last Tuesday. Did you forget to upload the updates?
I will still do detail and aesthetic feedback for the rest.
Re: Zazie Muhaba by R@CE AKIR@ & Skeletor E.X. Updated 12/10/18
#20  December 10, 2018, 07:47:55 am
  • ****
  • This big boy spitting out 250 rounds a minute!!!
    • USA
    • https://infiniteff.forumotion.com/t533-all-chars-by-rce-akir-jeanne-d-arc-released
When I clicked the page to your OneDrive, I noticed the dates of Zazie and Leonardo and they have been on the drive since last Tuesday. Did you forget to upload the updates?

No, must've been an error on their part. Try it now