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JOE (Read 60318 times)

Started by Just No Point, June 12, 2014, 05:51:19 pm
JOE
#1  June 12, 2014, 05:51:19 pm
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Here's a preliminary move list (names pending) Link to drop box with Joe's folder/files

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Elbow Smash Target combo
f+LP, f+MP, f+SP - Joe does a quick rapid 3 hit elbow combo.
Over Head Elbow
f+MP overhead attack similar to Ryu's collarbone breaker
Advancing Hook punch
f+HP - Joe takes 2 steps then does his hook punch. This move may have 1 hit of armor as it advances
Sliding Spectre
df+SP - Joe does a slide punch across the ground
Spinning Elbow ReAct
In air Press SP after Jumping SP connects - Joe does a second spinning Elbow
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Punch/forward Throw = Spin throw (think TMNT4 where they throw the bad guy toward the screen. This one does a violent spin like that and throws you forward... secondary imagery assistance: bar fight throw where someone spins around to through the opponent over the bar table in a belly sliding manner)
Kick/backwards Throw = Rapid knees to the head. left knee, right knee, so on

Comeback Technique 1 (defense type) = Come at me Bro
- db+2P (backwards) or df+2P (forward) after being knocked down. Costs half a bar.
-Joe rolls forward or backwards and on get up he has armor for a limited time, all damage taken can be regained ala SF4 focus
Comeback Technique 2 (attack type) = Ruthless
- d+2K after being knocked down. Costs a bar.
All attacks become unblockable for a limited time

Guard Break Attack = Out of here (Bryan Fury's roundhouse)
Zero Counter Punch = ???
Zero Counter Kick = Rising Knee
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Ghost Step
HCF + P - Joe does a ducking dash forward. Goes under most projectiles and he can do the following attacks at any time during this move
LP -  Head Games (throw grabs then headbutt) - this move causes Joe slight damage when it connects
MP - Slash Elbow (over head) - Advancing overhead elbow strike
SP - Furious Flurry (moves forward with a bunch of rapid punches like Iced suggested)
LK - Rising Knee (good for anti air and juggling)
MK - Scythe Kick (mid kick)
SK - Soul Sweeper (spinning sweep kick)

[EX] Ghost Step
HCF + 2P - The Ghost Step portion is now completely invincible (No CLSN) and faster

Ghost Fade
HCB + P - Reverse Ghost Step (Joe slides backwards while ducking) the following moves can be used at any time during
LP - In Your Face (Quick forward elbow dash)
MP - Descent  (Jumping forward overhead Double Axe Handle)
SP - Furious Flurry (moves forward with a bunch of rapid punches like Iced suggested)
LK - Rising Knee (good for anti air and juggling)
MK - Scythe Kick (mid kick)
SK - Soul Sweeper (spinning sweep kick)

[EX]Ghost Fade
HCB + 2P - The Ghost Fade portion is now completely invincible (No CLSN) and faster

Crack Kick
QCF + K - different heights + distances (for those not familiar this is the same command basic Cody has with F+MK)

[EX]Crack Kick
QCF + 2K - faster, goes as far as opponent then kicks with slightly further distance potential than SP version, creates wall bounce

Spirit Bringer
F, D, DF + K - This is a rising knee but the hit and arc properties are not the same as a Tiger Knee. Not a good anti air option. It hit's more in front and lower than the visual look and then on the way down he continues the knee momentum for a secondary hit similar to Terry's Power Dunk. He then slams the opponent down on the ground under his knee.

[EX] Spirit Bringer
F, D, DF + 2K - same as above but faster. Better anti air properties, and after the slam to the ground he raises his foot and slams it down violently on the downed opponent

Flying Ghost
(in air only)QCB + P - Joe does an arcing elbow slash punch similar to Adon's Jaguar kick. This move has great frame advantage on hit and block. But if Joe misses he crashes into the ground and it causes him slight damage.

[EX]Flying Ghost
(in air only)QCB + 2P - Same as above but the move has homing properties and heads straight towards the opponent.
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[Super 1]Giving Up the Ghost
This move makes Joe do a flying body press type move that if misses causes him damage. But on hit he grabs them and headbutts them with his momentum then runs up their body, kicks off the opponent's head launching himself off and towards the side of the screen. He then jumps off the wall with a flying elbow drop on the now downed opponent. When he lands he hits he takes slight damage and rolls on the ground holding his ribs a bit. This move is unblockable

[Max Super 1] Giving Up the Ghost
simply doesn't cause Joe any damage

[Super 2] Driving up the stakes
A super spirit bringer or super crack kick

[Max Super2]Driving up the stakes


[Super3] Out of Body Experience
This move has several options. All start with him drinking a beer then going into a different combo/move attribute state. Feel free to submit more ideas. Later there will be a poll to decide the winner

Since custom combos are a default thing how will this be different? Will it be more like Yun's Genei Jin where he gets infinite juggle points, and some move properties change like adding hits or becoming faster?

I also have an idea where all his basics get a "ghost" hit. For example I'd take his SP and copy it in the air with a new state number. I'd add a CLSN1 to the 2nd frame where no punch is even occurring.

Most basics would get something similar either before or after their original CLSN1. This extra hit would have it's own hitdef that would be duplicated from the actual move's hit def.

You could make it like Makoto's super, where all of his attacks get a big damage boost. You could even add something like he can't block while it's activated, but all his moves do like 40-50 percent more damage.

Bonus damage(Id prefer a defense drop with it since not being able to guard is a cc thing too), armor for specials, shadows, etc. This bud's for you!

Id like altered specials properties + shadows + a 7% damage bonus + he can't guard and he takes 7% more damage himself. Maybe bonus chip/dizzy points too

Iced came up with an interesting and unique idea too. His suggestion was to make every attack make a ghost Joe that appears in the spot the attack took place in around 2 seconds later. He said to make it do every other attack.

I expanded on this to keep it being every attack. But there is a random chance of the ghost attack occurring within 5 ticks and 600 ticks (that'd be 10 seconds, right?)

An example would be that you would do LP, LP, LP
then you move somewhere else. A ghost of Joe will appear at that spot you made the LP at any time between 3 and 600 ticks. Then another, and another. Do to the random time fluctuations it may not be the same order. Like MK, SP, LK could create ghosts in this order SP, LK, MK due to the random time placement. The max version would probably narrow down the time frame the ghosts would appear so you could control it better?


[Max Super3]Out of Body Experience

Finished sprites:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty



Possible colour separation:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 11:22:57 pm by Just No Point
Re: JOE
#2  June 12, 2014, 06:15:17 pm
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Throws, comeback techniques, guard break and alpha counters are all debatable.  Keep in mind that either the Guard Break or a Alpha Counter needs to also look/act like a focus attack from SF4 because we don't want to make a special animation just for that optional move.

Here is a list of previously discussed ideas for him.

I'm thinking the crack kick should be a special for him instead of a command basic. We can buff it. And he can trade health to do supers.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty


Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 06:45:51 pm by Just No Point
Re: JOE
#3  June 13, 2014, 02:58:23 am
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Will he also have Feints to trick manual controlled characters? So far, he already have suggested ideas for Specials that would let him evade Projectiles.
Re: JOE
#4  June 13, 2014, 05:18:33 am
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Everything is a possibility at this stage. Right now I just want everyone to throw ideas at the wall and we'll discuss how well it might (or not)be implemented. I've began separating the gifs and applying his palette. Will make his sff and air tomorrow. Can probably code them pretty fast using the Ryu template.

I'll start breaking down the suggestions as well tomorrow. I may make some more myself. @Balthazar: @Iced: @Sean Altly: @Ink: @[Judas]: @Alex Sinigaglia: All of you guys will have the loudest voice to help decide which moves we'll use.

Also got more suggestions through PM

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Re: JOE
#5  June 13, 2014, 11:12:22 am
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Elbow Smash Target combo
f+LP, f+MP, f+SP - Joe does a quick rapid 3 hit elbow combo.

Why not just f+LP, then MP and after that SP? Without pressing forward every time?

One of the EX moves could be a throw like the second throw in your list, but faster and the last hit puts the enemy in another custom state (the EX KFM Palm state). You know, like Hugo's 'HCB+any kick' throw, he would instead use two buttons ('HCB+two kicks').

But I have to see more sprites to have some more ideas.

I edited the first post with all the finished sprites plus the colour separation in case someone wants to try their hand at it.
Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 12:09:36 pm by Alex Sinigaglia
Re: JOE
#6  June 13, 2014, 07:36:50 pm
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https://www.dropbox.com/sh/40jxw081j9vsx6v/AAAet0cumb0_WXejlF5EiYDea

Joe Folder started. He has stand (1 sprite) walk forward, crouch, and all 4 attacks. Should I keep his SP attacks coded like I have them using velset? Or should I vel set each frame individually? What's the best way to reproduce his movement from the gifs? Or does this work well enough?

The rest of the sprites are created and indexed. I just have yet to add them. This will have to be my stopping point for the day.

Why not just f+LP, then MP and after that SP? Without pressing forward every time?
Either way really. I wasn't thinking someone had to tap f+punch each time. Just hold f while taping the punches.
Re: JOE
#7  June 13, 2014, 07:47:54 pm
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Should I keep his SP attacks coded like I have them using velset? Or should I vel set each frame individually? What's the best way to reproduce his movement from the gifs? Or does this work well enough?
One velset at the start, and everything else is based on friction (unless the animation has him visibly push twice on his legs) (you can cheat and delay friction by setting physics to N for a part of the animation if the friction requires a too high starting velocity), it's more logical/fitting reality. It's also the standard on this type of movement.

I usually like it better to use posadds based on the footing, I find that the movement looks smoother when it fits the legs movements (that's from when I did a Kyo and I tried both versions on his Doku Gami qcf+HP). It would also be the better way to reproduce exactly the movement from the .gif.
However, when using posadds, depending on the movement, you're running the risk that a posadd is too high, making it easier to slip behind the opponent between two frames. The trick for that is to move the axis little by little on each frame so that each posadd isn't too high (like, you move the axis forward on the frame before the big step, and you split the posadd between those two frames).
The difference from using a velocity instead of posadds is not always too noticeable, but in something like that, it probably would. Velocity makes it slide a lot more, but that's what's used the most.

Edit - hang on, I haven't actually looked at your files yet. I'm talking about the advancing hook, I'm not sure what the SP is, I see no gif of it.
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Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 07:55:34 pm by DKDC
Re: JOE
#8  June 13, 2014, 08:01:25 pm
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Your feedback still applies. HP and advancing hook both advance. HP only takes one step while adv hook takes 2

They are both hook punches.
Re: JOE
#9  June 14, 2014, 12:11:32 am
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Just noting I've updated the sff with some more frames. They are not aligned yet. Added my work forlder for his sprites for my own convenience since I'll be going to my mom's tonight and staying for my next 3 work days. I hope to finish adding all the current sprites and fix the SP movement over my work weekend.

@Lost_Avenger: If you have any time to start messing with the config stuff please try to work on it while I'm working. Rajaa's set up is absolutely fantastic. Base the config coding/layout on his.

The 1st config option I began working on is the CvS2 accurate cancels for Ryu.
Re: JOE
#10  June 14, 2014, 01:27:40 am
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Which config file? I was using something like Jz's. I'm still super busy at work so I haven't had much of a chance for mugen lately

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http://www.Trinitymugen.net/Hosted/CFJ2/
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Re: JOE
#11  June 14, 2014, 04:36:19 am
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Rajaa's Necro. But I'll take a look at JZ's config too. And it's cool. If you are busy it can't be helped! Real life 1st. Have a great weekend. Hopefully you won't have to work the whole thing like I do.
Re: JOE
#12  June 14, 2014, 04:41:00 am
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I do lol. While sick. I don't know how old my copy of Necro is. Ive got like 16 characters in my downloads folder that aren't even unrared yet.

If that kicks is unblockable, the damage is low right? Why not make that your recovery thing?

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http://www.Trinitymugen.net/Hosted/CFJ2/
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thanks again Vans/Jesuszilla!
Re: JOE
#13  June 14, 2014, 05:03:12 am
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Temporary unblockable attacks on get up as an offensive comeback mechanic might not be a bad idea. The unblockable LK attack was going to be experimental. Yes, I was worried that a light attack having a nature like that even rarely would make it way too OP

He has a few other system/move properties that will be experimental too. Like the armor on that advancing hook punch and the ability to trade life for super bar/super moves.
Re: JOE
#14  June 15, 2014, 03:07:47 am
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Discussed specials and supers laid out

Rushing duck move that goes under most projectiles the --
--throw
--knee - pops up for juggle
--headbutt
--sweep kick
--a strong spinning kick to the mid-section - good range, speed, knocks down
--Slash Elbow, where Joe fakes low and then does a downward moving elbow slash. It would have a lot of start-up but would be an overhead.

Ghost Fade (a reverse version of the above )

Rushing multi punch move similar to Decapre's berserker barrage  (rushing and brawling)

I also thought about lifting that nasty knee attack that Bryan Fury has in SFxT, the one that looks a bit like a Tiger Knee, but when it hits he drives them down with his knee. There could also be a follow up by pressing D,D+P or K and he'd add a ground pound or a stomp, to show his violent side.

A auto guard into hit counter move ( hold pose then strike) where if he hits the opponent blocking he gets damaged, although slightly

Crack shoot, sliding kick attack with three heights, based on cody move.

jumping downward elbow slash

Tackle and punch while opponent is on the ground

Kicking opponent while they are down similar to Yamazaki

leaping pursuit where he lands on knee/fist on ground

counter attack while being hit

3 kinds of projectiles: rocks, dust and mentioned earlier alcohol, bottled or in case of Chu's move not. Picking rocks will make him too much like Cody, so instead og picking 'em Joe might just kick 'em with different strength = different arcs. As for dust, you probably saw Jubilee by Chimoru, she have move to make enemy temporary blind, that's the case - rise some dust and punch/kick while enemy is blinded(either variation with attack after blinding included in move or without it can work, maybe even dust then his firm kick special as one move). I don't really like unlimited bottles to throw idea, but drinking can of beer to replenish energy with ability of interrupt it to spray move like Chu's(make him spray it forward or in air with no damage but push effect) might work nice.


Supers
Giving Up the Ghost
headbutting the opponent , climbing them up, jumping to the far wall and then back with a elbow, ending with both in pain on the ground. 

Emperor's knee
he performs a tiger knee type move, followed by a kick at the apex to throw the opponent down
desperation does more hits and a second knee strike

Driving up the stakes
he does a beer drinking anim, gains trailing afterimages and can combo easier after

A leaping attack where he drives the opponent head down and proceeds to stomp them

A counter type could be fun if it really pressed how fast he could be

auto combo super

he does the Bryan Fury knee smash move, drives them down, and then jumps and repels off the wall, doing a huge elbow drop
Re: JOE
#15  June 15, 2014, 03:17:41 am
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he could have something like juri counter. Leaving a afterimage behind as he rushes with no hitboxes a portion of the screen.  weak makes him dash back, medium dash forward, hard dash upwards
Re: JOE
#16  June 15, 2014, 03:59:43 am
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Here are my thoughts from this list.
For starters I want to touch on the projectiles suggestions. This character's basics have all already been made with projectiles not on the table for him.
Now with that being said, you did inspire me today @ExL: when you PMed me those great motif suggestions. It made me decide to try something if you are interested. Basically, once Joe's sprite are finished I think there will be enough to work with to create a projectile throw attack. 1 or more of these suggestions you made.

What I'm considering doing is going ahead and coding your move for you as a thank you. Because none of them would be too tough to make. I might extend this incentive out to other users as well for simplistic things. Still brainstorming the best way to do this. I'd like it to be an incentive for users that don't code to contribute in other areas. The idea is that I would release 2 versions. 1 with the projectile and one without for the balanced game purposes. After all, the idea is to have customization and help unlock MUGEN potential/enjoyment as well as make a stand alone balanced game.

Now onto my choices for special attacks, I suggested a leap attack but I'm taking that off the table because lie down time is only 8 ticks. I think it might be too short to use a jumping pursuit effectively.

Crack kick
QCF + K - different heights + distances
EX- faster, goes as far as opponent then kicks with slightly further distance potential than SP version, creates wall bounce

Advancing Ghost (move that advances and ducks forward)
HCF + P - different distances press one of the following buttons at any point to cancel into attack
LP -  throw (grabs then headbutt)**
MP - Slash Elbow (over head)
SP - flurry punches (moves forward with a bunch of punches like Iced suggested)
LK - knee
MK - scythe kick (mid kick)
SK - sweep
EX - Faster and no CLSN2

Ghost Fade
HCB + P - different distances press one of the following buttons at any point to cancel into attack
LP - Quick forward elbow dash
MP - Jumping forward overhead Double Axe Handle
SP - flurry punches (moves forward with a bunch of punches like Iced suggested)
LK - knee
MK - scythe kick (mid kick)
SK - sweep
EX - Faster and no CLSN2

Knee Lift Slam - The knee attack that slams (I personally like the idea of this move acting similar to Terry's Power Dunk but with the knee)
f,D,DF + K - different heights
EX - bigger CLSN1 on rise and after slam he does a foot stomp to the ground opponent

Elbow slasher (similar to jaguar kick, kinda) *
(in air only) QCB + P - changes arc
EX - homing

* if missed Joe slams on ground causing damage to himself
** causes slight damage to Joe

thoughts?
(I did read your Juri counter idea Iced)
Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 12:35:42 am by Just No Point

SNT

Re: JOE
#17  June 15, 2014, 04:05:41 am
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Elbow Smash Target combo
f+LP, f+MP, f+SP - Joe does a quick rapid 3 hit elbow combo.
If we're leaning on Bryan Fury for inspiration, I feel this should be his Hands Of Doom (1:22): two spinning back elbows followed by a brutal straight punch.  Better yet, make it just f+MP > f+HP and have it cancelable into those Ghost specials, to reflect Bryan's mixup options from that chain.
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Re: JOE
#18  June 15, 2014, 04:20:46 am
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Updated the 1st post because I saw 2 command basics I'd forgotten that Sean suggested for Joe
Over head Elbow and changed slide kick to the sliding punch with df+SP

SNT: Inspiration for the elbow target combo actually came from Bruce Irvin
Though that does not take cancelling out of the target combo into the Ghost attacks off the table either.
Re: JOE
#19  June 15, 2014, 10:16:08 am
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I worry if the Knee Lift Slam has the trajectory and utility of something like Terry's Power Dunk, it would overlap with the Elbow Slasher special.  Although if I'm reading that right, you want Elbow Slasher to be an air only move? Just want to clarify.
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Re: JOE
#20  June 15, 2014, 11:36:17 am
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Yeah. He has a lot of options. The knee lift move sounded like a decent anti air. Power dunk isn't as good for that. Though his EX would be better. Anyway, I figured his anti air game might be weak. Elbow slasher would be an air only move. Am I correct in the assumption of how you wanted to utilize the 2 moves? I figure this way would also make it so you could sprite the stuff the same way or maybe just need to tweak a frame or 2 and that's all.

All moves can be discussed further of course!