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C. VIPER (Read 106182 times)

Started by MGMURROW, November 30, 2012, 01:44:45 am
Re: C. VIPER
#41  December 25, 2012, 04:35:57 pm
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Re: C. VIPER
#42  December 25, 2012, 04:56:04 pm
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Re: C. VIPER
#43  December 26, 2012, 01:26:33 am
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Felo i have already implemented the Optic Laser, i will let you know what sprites i used(and the ones that i was going to ask you to finish when i get home from the holidays). and i will talk to you about the ideas when i get back from the holidays. also i have both ultras done so no "need" to finish the second ultra sprites unless you want to for cosmetic purposes. will get with you soon to discuss more

thanks

MGMURROW

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Re: C. VIPER
#44  December 27, 2012, 06:09:51 pm
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Yes, Viper will have new moves. how many depend on how much Felo "approves" seeing he is making the sprites. I have alot of things planned for her but we will have to see how it comes to light. As for the AI, we haven't discussed that from the project standpoint but as for my stand alone C. Viper, her AI will be up to par with all my releases.
Hope i answered your questions
MGMURROW
Yes, you did. Thank you.

- Are you going to add new moves to Viper, because her current moveset is a little impractical(weak/disadvantageous) from a competitive (AI) Mugen standpoint?
It was something I wanted to give her, but then I realized that:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Aside that, I'm open to any ideas, so feel free to comment. I would include her EYEBEAM! from MvC3 only if I find a vid where it's shown, but no luck ATM.
- MGMURROW: tell me your ideas!
Thanks for the response. I'll provide more detailed feedback in a few days.
- Thunder Knuckle low and mid/high were two moves I took issue with. On both guard and hit they can be unsafe because they leave C.Viper easily open to a counter if cmk isn't timed correctly in order to combo. I was wondering if you'd give her a new, reanimated version with knockdown properties which I will outline later on.
- Burning Kick. Burning Kick also has crossup properties which is what will really get messed up because the majority of people who code AI in mugen use seriously broken guarding.
These, therefore, will never work.
4:10-6:06
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foJRckgem1Y#t=4m10s
- Seismic Hammer is also useless because of the broken guarding. Had it been a real projectile, I could have used it to allow Viper to follow, then pull the Burning Kick crossup just before the projectile made contact effectively trapping p2. Also, being a short "explosion" at set distances, it's bound to get blocked every time.
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 07:01:47 pm by hjk
Re: C. VIPER
#45  December 28, 2012, 04:33:53 am
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few questions, will burn kicks be cancelable like mvc3? also which versions of moves are you implementing? for example in the sf4 series seismo hits low and burnkick hits mid, in mvc3 they changed this, siesmo hits mid and burnkicks are overheads, think it would be broken to have seismo's as lows and burnkicks as highs lol, and another thing rapid seismo's in mvc3 don't require your opponent guard it to be able to execute it? how are you planning to execute it in this instance?

good job to you and Felo, my fave sf4 character by far!

edit: also hard tk feint has 2-3 frames of invincibility
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Last Edit: December 28, 2012, 04:37:34 am by Alchemist
Re: C. VIPER
#46  January 05, 2013, 04:59:33 pm
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No fool. Read the quote again.
I know about her SSF4 tier standing... that's not going to hold up well in Mugen aka, I was planning on making an AI patch for her, but I have enough insight to recognize that her SSF4 movelist isn't going to cut it.
this claim is kind of ridiculous - saying viper's moveset doesn't hold up in mugen is completely useless information. a mugen select screen can have characters that are way overpowered compared to viper. this, however, is a full game with some sense of balance.
Re: C. VIPER
#47  January 05, 2013, 05:53:44 pm
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After playing the Alpha version, I can say she's pretty solid.

Loved the captcha in this: French fried(LOL?)



Dunno if this one is a small mistake or just Catuar's hitbox trolling time:
Re: C. VIPER
#48  January 06, 2013, 07:49:32 am
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Its the hitbox my friend. :)

hjk

Re: C. VIPER
#49  January 06, 2013, 12:13:27 pm
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No fool. Read the quote again.
I know about her SSF4 tier standing... that's not going to hold up well in Mugen aka, I was planning on making an AI patch for her, but I have enough insight to recognize that her SSF4 movelist isn't going to cut it.
this claim is kind of ridiculous - saying viper's moveset doesn't hold up in mugen is completely useless information. a mugen select screen can have characters that are way overpowered compared to viper. this, however, is a full game with some sense of balance.
First I'll say I was reacting to this post by Felo:
Aside CFAS, there will be at least 2 versions more... Anyway, CFAS demo has the character folders available, so I guess it will be possible to play with her in regular mugen.

Second:
If Felo plans to keep things accurate and I was to apply a fair AI to the character, trust me when I say that I wouldn't be able to do jack 'ish (in terms of fighting other AIs).  You see that Nash I sent you, I had to change around so much BS, especially some of his CLSNs, in order to make him more competitive. A better example for you would be to try to code a fair/human-like AI for warusaki3's stock Benimaru. Because Beni lacks range, invulnerability on many of his moves, and has extremely short CLSN attacks, any fair AI you apply is bound to fail. I could respond by breaking the triggers, yes, but I don't like pulling that horse crap... so what I do instead is "balance" the character to make it more competitive with other mugen AIs.

Third:
What Viper needs is more distancing options. Because of the way AIs trigger their basics and their guards(which I barely if ever code because it's naturally broken), Viper, whose moves don't provide much distancing range on block, is bound to get caught by badly triggered combos because she'll wind up too close to p2 (I'm speaking specifically about Burning Kick and Thunder Knuckle). It's complicated, but I'll demonstrate it for you when she comes out if indeed she can be converted to regular mugen.
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 04:13:31 pm by hjk
Re: C. VIPER
#50  January 07, 2013, 07:14:22 pm
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Quote
If Felo plans to keep things accurate and I was to apply a fair AI to the character, trust me when I say that I wouldn't be able to do jack 'ish (in terms of fighting other AIs).
who cares? changing a character's moveset because the ai might not be able to use it properly is a terrible design decision
Re: C. VIPER
#51  January 07, 2013, 07:22:55 pm
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And the whole "make it competitive with other AI" is terrible thinking.
Re: C. VIPER
#52  January 07, 2013, 07:23:12 pm
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Because of the way AIs trigger their basics and their guards(which I barely if ever code because it's naturally broken)

Can you explain the issue?
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Re: C. VIPER
#53  January 07, 2013, 07:29:46 pm
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The primary purpose of a Mugen character (or fighting game character in general for that matter) is to be used by the player.  The AI being able to do do this or whatever is irrelevant unless it's a boss.

hjk

Re: C. VIPER
#54  January 07, 2013, 08:21:05 pm
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Before I respond, let me say that my aim, if it wasn't already obvious, was to offer my services in the department which is my focus. I thought that I had already implied that, but...

Quote
If Felo plans to keep things accurate and I was to apply a fair AI to the character, trust me when I say that I wouldn't be able to do jack 'ish (in terms of fighting other AIs).
who cares? changing a character's moveset because the ai might not be able to use it properly is a terrible design decision
Did I say that? I asked for one move to have knockdown properties, which imo, it should have had in the game in the first place.
Edit:
Excuse me, that's what I initially asked for.
Edit:
And let me clarify. I'm talking mainly about competing with truly CvSish, Kof-ish, and SF3'ish characters...

And the whole "make it competitive with other AI" is terrible thinking.
Why? Why would that be terrible thinking? I REALLY want you to explain this...

The primary purpose of a Mugen character (or fighting game character in general for that matter) is to be used by the player.  The AI being able to do do this or whatever is irrelevant unless it's a boss.
Honestly, I've been trying not to offend you, but you piss me off a lot. Dude, shut up. There have been countless times where I've given feedback on characters that lack AI. If you don't have the forethought to understand WHY I posted what I did (i.e. my plan to help with coding her AI so I can do something similar to Ultimate Terry minus the parts where I broke him) then seriously, shut the fuck up, because you always sound like a presumptious assinine little idiot and you do it consistently. God MC2, just THINK before you make posts because you're intolerably annoying.

Because of the way AIs trigger their basics and their guards(which I barely if ever code because it's naturally broken)
Can you explain the issue?
The standard practice amongst AI coders is to trigger your close ranged basics immediately, especially if p2 is idle. So if Burning Kick gets blocked and Viper is within range during her minimal landing recovery frames (should Felo choose to add them), she is going to get attacked and hit by basics which often lead to broken BS combos.
The guard code is as broken as shit with most people. There isn't a single AI coder that recognizes how broken their guard codes are, starting with PotS, resulting in AI's that can block stringed assaults that should have been virtually unguardable. Watching them block entire strings of Custom Combos because their codes are based on p2's movetype and statetype is such horseshit. I'll have to make a video about this shit because it pisses me off every time I have to code.
On top of that, I watch pro matches all the time and know that no one comes remotely close to coding anything similar to what I see, but force me to code broken nonsense in response to their broken shit. It kills me to have to sacrifice creativity, authenticity, and realism for competitiveness in what is essentially a broken "market."
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 08:57:00 pm by hjk
Re: C. VIPER
#55  January 07, 2013, 09:24:03 pm
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Why? Why would that be terrible thinking? I REALLY want you to explain this...
because, like mc2 said, fighting games are primarily meant to be played by human beings against human beings. changing a move's properties just for the sake of competitive AI is bad

hjk

Re: C. VIPER
#56  January 07, 2013, 09:33:06 pm
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Why? Why would that be terrible thinking? I REALLY want you to explain this...
because, like mc2 said, fighting games are primarily meant to be played by human beings against human beings. changing a move's properties just for the sake of competitive AI is bad
I'll technically take that point, but I have to leave you with this:
- What's bad for the AI, will be equally as disadvantageous for the player. Characters aren't necessarily designed for the "player" more than they're designed to the specifications and preferences of "the creator." With those properties, Viper's not going to be "my" main, but for whichever player is okay with it, then it's okay.
- I like your interpretation, but MC2's response came only after you posted. He could easily have said the same thing in his first response to me, or in reply to my second, but didn't. Couldn't he have?

Edit:
And, let me be clear. Felo has teh right to simply deny my earlier request. I can't force it down his throught. It's his creation and he's putting in the hard work for it... which I'll back end.
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Last Edit: January 07, 2013, 09:38:29 pm by hjk
Re: C. VIPER
#57  January 08, 2013, 07:07:03 am
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The guard code is as broken as shit with most people. There isn't a single AI coder that recognizes how broken their guard codes are, starting with PotS, resulting in AI's that can block stringed assaults that should have been virtually unguardable. Watching them block entire strings of Custom Combos because their codes are based on p2's movetype and statetype is such horseshit. I'll have to make a video about this shit because it pisses me off every time I have to code.

You say this, and then I seem to recall a lot of 'standard' fighting games do this sort of thing also(Even though I can't recall direct examples)-blocking the unblockable, impossible combos and so on.  There's probably a lot of examples out there, not just in MUGEN.  Hmm.  It'd be an interesting video just tracking all the examples of that sort of thing down.
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Re: C. VIPER
#58  January 08, 2013, 07:55:37 am
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And, let me be clear. Felo has teh right to simply deny my earlier request. I can't force it down his throught. It's his creation and he's putting in the hard work for it... which I'll back end.
Technically ... It's MgMurrow's call as he is lead programmer. That being said, the current level of AI implemented is competitive, but not the point of SNK Boss syndrome, as the design aspect was for the game to be fun  to play and a frustrating experience, as many mugen players aren't hardcore fighting gamers. Yes, this is catering to the more casual crowd, but that's just the route we are going right now. Furthermore, as far as I know, when the game is released, all files will probably be available, at that time you are free to add your AI version.

And I kind of have to agree with MC2 on this case, the characters are being made to play with, not to watch it play itself.

hjk

Re: C. VIPER
#59  January 08, 2013, 01:15:35 pm
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You say this, and then I seem to recall a lot of 'standard' fighting games do this sort of thing also(Even though I can't recall direct examples)-blocking the unblockable, impossible combos and so on.  There's probably a lot of examples out there, not just in MUGEN.  Hmm.  It'd be an interesting video
The AI coders whom I'm talking about are those who claim their AIs aren't broken and additionally claim that their AIs are humanlike, when this presents a glaring example of a contradiction. I'd say like 100% of the AIs I'd end up testing would fall into this category, except maybe Cyanide's because he recognized it as well.

Technically ... It's MgMurrow's call as he is lead programmer. That being said, the current level of AI implemented is competitive, but not the point of SNK Boss syndrome, as the design aspect was for the game to be fun  to play and a frustrating experience, as many mugen players aren't hardcore fighting gamers. Yes, this is catering to the more casual crowd, but that's just the route we are going right now. Furthermore, as far as I know, when the game is released, all files will probably be available, at that time you are free to add your AI version.
Thanks for the correction.

And I kind of have to agree with MC2 on this case, the characters are being made to play with, not to watch it play itself.
That's not the point I'm making. I was merely trying to offer some help if you guys wanted it. Two; I'm just pointing this out, but you can't necessarily make a character that is suited to the player because TONs of players have different preferences. What you're doing in reality is making characters that are suited to your preferences that hopefully match up to what most players want.
All that I was saying in the end was that should you accept my offer, would you be willing to add new properties to the move, because I intend to hold any AI I program to the original character's standards. Finito.
Yes, I understand that the AI is not the primary thing. Set that aside. This was an offer, you have the right to accept or decline...

But we'll say MG already answered the question. He will code his own and that is fine. Thank you very much.
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Re: C. VIPER
#60  January 30, 2013, 10:45:04 pm
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- Thunder Knuckle has different properties depending on which button you hit: Light has the abbility to cross through projectiles, but it can be easily blocked. Mid it's the same as light, but not that easy to block, and can break a defense. And finally, her Hard one has the properties of a juggle/uppercut where you can easily go for an air strategy(if timed correctly). It also has the property of a reversal. Both Mid and hard hs the properties to be cancelled, so combo strategies can go from them.



I would like some input on this move please....Here is my debate

I coded the Thunder Knuckle off of SSF4AE...Then i remembered she was in UMVC3 so i started to look into her moves there seeing CFAS is a "versus" type game. Give me your thoughts on the move and what properties they should have(Light, Medium and Hard Thunder Knuckle).

All the startup times are the same(normal startup as in any versus game but is not slow)

As of now the Light Knuckle's distance is short and is the "crouching" one, highest damage 

Medium distance is longer(maybe half the screen) and is the "standing" one

Hard is like the EX version in UMVC3 and can cover the screen length, lowest damage(was the "upward" one but i liked the EX UMVC3 one better)


I would like some input on what attributes each might have(from either SSF4 or UMVC3, if i should keep the HARD UPWARD THUNDER KNUCKLE, what are the properties of a "reversal" that felo mentioned??

give me your thoughts please so i can get some insight and some direction on this move please

thanks

MGMURROW