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Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro! (Read 27915 times)

Started by Gladiacloud, November 19, 2018, 08:40:21 pm
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Nep Heart

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#21  November 24, 2018, 04:53:27 am
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Macaulyn97 said, November 24, 2018, 04:36:37 am
Well, I did ask Darkflare in the comments and he said it was because of the frame data, 'cause her moves are too safe. If this can be made better, then I'd love for it to happen, 'cause these MvC assist characters are really good, and I want them to be the best they can.

 It's kinda weird since it's more of a case of moves that are risky too safe and moves that are meant to be safe are too risky, creating a double whammy with frame data imbalance. That's just Darkflare's video, there are other issues like a plethora of infinite combos as Dissidia has discovered on his own and even more wonky stuff from using Beximus' questionable template.

Baby Bonnie Hood

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#22  November 24, 2018, 04:54:32 am
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There's also a thing where her attacks seem to have infinite guard distance as shown by KFM trying to block her jabs despite them being at the extreme opposite ends of the screen.

The way I see it, nothing being explained in the video itself tells me that it's up to the creator whether to do anything about them or not.  What might look like a bug to someone might actually be intentional by the creator.

Umezono

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#23  November 24, 2018, 05:05:03 am
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i find those videos exceptionally lazy honestly, its easy to just make a video showcasing all the flaws without explaining anything, especially to a community full of sophomore coders and game designers, and pass it off as some biting commentary (by also including the compliments of people who don't really understand the issues). but its not. it just looks a jaded, spiteful attempt to insult the character, not serious feedback. the comments here clarifying the issues presented in the video are infinitely more useful to me educationally than that video. looking at the comments, darkflare took the time to respond to someone and explain some issues with the character, which begs the question why he wouldnt even do that in the first place.

Macaulyn97

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#24  November 24, 2018, 05:41:29 am
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Umezono said, November 24, 2018, 05:05:03 am
i find those videos exceptionally lazy honestly, its easy to just make a video showcasing all the flaws without explaining anything, especially to a community full of sophomore coders and game designers, and pass it off as some biting commentary (by also including the compliments of people who don't really understand the issues). but its not. it just looks a jaded, spiteful attempt to insult the character, not serious feedback. the comments here clarifying the issues presented in the video are infinitely more useful to me educationally than that video. looking at the comments, darkflare took the time to respond to someone and explain some issues with the character, which begs the question why he wouldnt even do that in the first place.
I think I can explain this. I am not 100% sure, but I know that long time ago, these creators that make "insult" videos used to give actual feedback on their videos (angrily, yes, but still, solid complaints with evidence and examples) and most creators didn't do much regarding feedback, with some even taking the videos as offensive and bashing the ones giving that type of feedback (not saying this is the case with Gladiacloud, Beximus or ShinZankuro), which led to the ones giving feedback to lose their patience and just make videos beating the shit out of those characters and potentially cool characters ending up broken because creators wouldn't listen to feedback.

ShinZankuro

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#25  November 24, 2018, 07:28:59 am
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I don't think I nor Gladia are expert level coders to see what are exactly the problem of the character we work in terms of frame-data and etcetera. [Tho I will absolutely look about the infinite combo issues asap]

And i'm not exactly a efficient english reader/writer and I probably will misinterpret the intentions of that video if I give any opinion about that, so I prefer to pass that thing and give a focus on what is really important, which is the character released.


If there's any type of issue on the character released both of us will look and try to fix the problems. It takes some time, sometimes a lot of time, but we will try to give our best on these creations. We have RL too so I sincerely asks for patience so we will see and try to adjust the problems of the character. As much I did with my previous works and Gladia too, proof of that is that update for Michelle Heart.

Thanks to everyone who played and gave feedback to help us improving the character! :)






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Gladiacloud

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#26  November 24, 2018, 08:52:35 am
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Darkflare

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#27  November 24, 2018, 09:10:55 am
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I'll try to keep it simple to not drag this much.

First off, why Michelle? It was being talked about often in one of the discords I hang out at. I got curious and well...

Why the mocking tone regarding the praise that was given? Considering that everything in the video is what I found on a basic surface level that didn't took me more than 5 minutes of testing to look, it really says a lot about those that just jumped into praising.

For the video, the basic surface level was the only intention for it. It has been really hard to be motivated to look for anything much deeper than that. I have no issue explaining anything, but otherwise, I'm sticking to just that.

Walruslui said, November 24, 2018, 04:16:45 am
darkflare atleast post your own vid here if you're gonna be like that lol
I can at least feign ignorance if I don't post it myself.

Nep Heart

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#28  November 24, 2018, 09:11:14 am
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ShinZankuro said, November 24, 2018, 07:28:59 am
I don't think I nor Gladia are expert level coders to see what are exactly the problem of the character we work in terms of frame-data and etcetera. [Tho I will absolutely look about the infinite combo issues asap]

And i'm not exactly a efficient english reader/writer and I probably will misinterpret the intentions of that video if I give any opinion about that, so I prefer to pass that thing and give a focus on what is really important, which is the character released.


If there's any type of issue on the character released both of us will look and try to fix the problems. It takes some time, sometimes a lot of time, but we will try to give our best on these creations. We have RL too so I sincerely asks for patience so we will see and try to adjust the problems of the character. As much I did with my previous works and Gladia too, proof of that is that update for Michelle Heart.

Thanks to everyone who played and gave feedback to help us improving the character! :)

 It takes a lot of time to tweak hitdef pausetimes and hittimes to ideal values, so, that much is understandable. What I normally do that I recommend to everyone else is use Training by Stupa as a test subject like Darkflare did in that video to check how many frames an attack recovers before or after the opponent is hit/blocks. Sometimes, button mashing can work to do random combos and if it's too crazy from mindless mashing, check to see if anything bad can come out of it. As for the infinite combos, I would ask Dissidia (who mostly hangs out at MFFA) what those are since he was the guy who found them.

ShiroTori

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#29  November 24, 2018, 10:24:32 am
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Darkflare said, November 24, 2018, 09:10:55 am
I can at least feign ignorance if I don't post it myself.

I seriously don't get you. You clearly have knowledge of coding and you explain things when people ask. So why go through the time and effort to make these needlessly snide videos behind people's backs instead of just approaching them and offering feedback in the first place? You have the potential to make a more positive impact man!

Sorry to briefly derail the topic, I just wanted to get this off my chest.

Umezono

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#30  November 24, 2018, 05:28:36 pm
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I mean has it occurred to anyone that the majority of those downloading characters off major MUGEN website release threads aren't seasoned fighting game players or coders by any stretch? MUGEN simply as a collection hobby is really easy to get into and requires almost no knowledge of what makes a fighting game character or fighting game itself good. When looking at the lavish praise these characters get regardless of the integrity of their coding and design it's probably a safe bet that people more appreciate the chance to have a character for their personal MUGEN that looks and plays how they want rather than what's going on under the hood

IKEISLEGEND

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#31  November 24, 2018, 06:51:31 pm
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whos playing competitively for it to matter so much
thats why they started updating their games in the first place like chars specific updates
and what about the opponent your facing that matters as well big time
mvc2 is a safe ass game in general all the vs games are  you worried about frame data jus to sit home and fight broken AI's ?  This would matter if you actually play competitively like against other people. Those men did a good job
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ShinZankuro

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#32  November 25, 2018, 07:22:52 am
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Umezono said, November 24, 2018, 05:28:36 pm
I mean has it occurred to anyone that the majority of those downloading characters off major MUGEN website release threads aren't seasoned fighting game players or coders by any stretch? MUGEN simply as a collection hobby is really easy to get into and requires almost no knowledge of what makes a fighting game character or fighting game itself good. When looking at the lavish praise these characters get regardless of the integrity of their coding and design it's probably a safe bet that people more appreciate the chance to have a character for their personal MUGEN that looks and plays how they want rather than what's going on under the hood

Exactly what Umezono said, is the same way of what I think about my mugen works. [And i'm almost sure Gladia thinks on that way too]

I forgot to give a special point about everything about the feedback and the """description"""" of that video now after I saw it:

We're not doing characters to put on "fullgames", the addition of these in potential fullgames are consequences of the decision from the fullgame coders and there's a big possibility they could do a much better work than us[Because YES, there's better coders than me and Gladiacloud, and that's not a surprise at all]. We're simply doing our job of making characters for casual usage and for everyone own fun.

To be more simple: If anyone actually WANTS to see on a more 'hardcore' coded character for competitive use, there's a lot of better coders which you can suggest to use our characters and make them to look more "professional" and "decent", but be very prepared to spend some bucks for a giant amount of time for perfecting the gameplay for a mugen character.

Anyway, again.... Issues like infinites or potential bugs are being looked deeply and we're try to fix that asap.
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Gladiacloud

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#33  November 25, 2018, 11:07:48 am
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I did not expect all this mess for one of my release ... it had never happened since I started work on Mugen.

Macaulyn97

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#34  November 25, 2018, 07:15:46 pm
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Gladiacloud said, November 25, 2018, 11:07:48 am
I did not expect all this mess for one of my release ... it had never happened since I started work on Mugen.
I don't consider your characters bad by any means, but if there is feedback given, as harsh as it is, I think its worth looking into.

ShinZankuro

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#35  November 25, 2018, 07:50:49 pm
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Feedback is always welcome. We actually READ and try to put our best. Takes time? Of course, why not? We don't have 100% of the time needed for dedicating ourselves for mugen characters like before xD

And thanks for the Training_Stupa thing recommendation, I really think that tool will be useful since, at least, I don't have a fully knowledge of advanced fighting game mechanics. Gonna download that :)
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Last Edit: November 25, 2018, 07:59:26 pm by ShinZankuro

R565

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#36  November 25, 2018, 07:53:51 pm
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Yeah, as cynical as Darkflare can be, he's really good at finding frame data and stuff. I just wish he could be more friendly about it instead of being so passive aggressive about things. Dark was even worse back then, but they calmed down a little bit over the years. Anywho, let's just forget about the drama and work on making this character better cause

Nep Heart

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#37  November 25, 2018, 10:27:08 pm
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 Yeah, I also don't think anyone meant harm here, we just think that these custom MvC characters have potential to be really amazing (I'm not gonna lie when I say that Pure & Fur is a load of fun from trying her out, although there could be some additional fixes to make her funner to use). Making them the best they can be is definitely ideal. Sure, they can't be perfect because MUGEN's limitations give the middle finger to all authors, but they can be great and that makes me want to play the character over and over.

DNZRX768

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#38  November 25, 2018, 11:23:41 pm
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Well, if there is one thing that I would like to request for the next update of the character is that the files be placed into a .zip file instead of a .rar file. During the weekend, I tried to download and extract the character for testing and playing, but I was unable to do so for some reason due to the fact that the 7zip program refusing to read the file as an archive...
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Amidweiz

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#39  November 25, 2018, 11:47:11 pm
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DarkWolf13

Re: Michelle Heart revamped by Gladiacloud, Beximus and Shinzankuro!
#40  November 26, 2018, 12:22:46 am
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Damn, I wasn't expecting this kind of mess on any of Gladia's release threads at all but basically what Umezono said. I've been currently working on a fullgame project myself and I always tend to fix moves that are infinites or cut short of combo potential like normals for instance and I'm trying my best to make it as balanced as possible. I really don't look at frame data myself cuz I really don't necessarily go for accuracy and whatever character I convert I have to adjust their hitpauses, hittimes and damage output so they won't be too OP and sometimes fix their hitboxes if a move feels too inconsistent with hitbox/hurtbox placement.

Try not to take it too hard, Gladia. Some feedback, like ShinZankuro said, should be looked into no matter how harsh the content of the feedback is.
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