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Feedback to Warnings/Decisions (Read 650145 times)

Started by Iced, February 24, 2012, 09:43:26 pm
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Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3941  July 27, 2018, 05:32:58 am
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The rest of the staff didn't know I edited the insults to direct back at him. It was all me, I've advocated not doing it for almost 2 decades. If he can't handle someone that has never EVER done anything back to him after he has targeted me for so many years simply redirecting his silly insults back at him then i dunno. It wasn't right for me to do it. But you're also being ridiculous and pedantic. You're defending someone that has lashed out at people for nearly 15 years. Of course some of them may want him gone. TBF if the cycle had been going sooner he'd been perma banned long ago. Dude's been banned so many times for the same BS. You can't just hand wave that he's not an asshole.
Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3942  July 27, 2018, 05:39:17 am
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Hi, this is Speedpreacher. I was co-chair for the legal defense this week. On a personal note, I'd like to thank some of you for making it so clear that speaking so passionately against making the ban longer in the first place was a failure on my part. Stupid me!
Oh, why must I tell 'em again?
What must I tell 'em, my friend?
That we are born into sin
And we are worshiping murderers
Nothing but evil duplicitous men
I know you heard of 'em all
We should just murder 'em all
We should just murder and ball
We dance on the ruins we looting from all of they palace's walls

DW

Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3943  July 27, 2018, 05:43:44 am
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The rest of the staff didn't know I edited the insults to direct back at him. It was all me, I've advocated not doing it for almost 2 decades. If he can't handle someone that has never EVER done anything back to him after he has targeted me for so many years simply redirecting his silly insults back at him then i dunno. It wasn't right for me to do it. But you're also being ridiculous and pedantic. You're defending someone that has lashed out at people for nearly 15 years. Of course some of them may want him gone. TBF if the cycle had been going sooner he'd been perma banned long ago. Dude's been banned so many times for the same BS. You can't just hand wave that he's not an asshole.

I suppose in the grand scheme of things, that's your opinion of him. Granted it may be justified, IDK you guys' history, though still. Wounds may run deep, and that's just something you guys will have to come to terms with/hash out some day. I don't pay a huge amount of attention to everything that goes on, though speaking from my own personal experience, JZ is my dude lol. For real though. It's crazy how one person can loathe someone, while another holds that same person in high regard.

He always helps me with my char development. I don't talk to anyone that much, but generally speaking he's a cool guy to converse with. He gave me a home in these mean MUGEN streets and he always keeps it 100%. IDK man... I guess if people brought up old slights about him or w/e, but I wouldn't judge him on that stuff anyway. I can only speak on my personal feelings toward him.
Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3944  July 27, 2018, 05:54:18 am
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Hi~!

Just posting to say that I don't support a year on this one, I'm sure the rest of the staff know my reasons.

That's all.
Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3945  July 27, 2018, 06:05:14 am
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True, I try to keep out of the politics in this forum myself and from what I had seen of JZ is he can be pretty hard to be around with but you can't deny his talent for creating stuff for MUGEN, and the people close to him will vouch for him hands down. But at the same time, he really shouldn't have put that stuff in his signature or characters, knowing that he's been doing this kind of behavior on and off for over 15 years is crazy. I would probably want to keep that stuff in the past but with his personality and elder standing it's pretty darn hard to do that, since he likes to be on the edge of either . He still should be banned no doubt; permabanned might be a little excessive, but more than three months will be more than fair since he did lie to Gill about it.

Like I said earlier, this seems like something between the old heads around here.
Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3946  July 27, 2018, 06:08:31 am
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he did lie to Gill about it.

Yeah I'm just going to nip this right now.

He did not.

and I know he did not.

Why? Because he's never had reason to lie to me in the past. That YT link was long dead, and I know he has a habit of fucking around with his knowledge of Japanese. From what I've seen from him in the past, there's no way that block of Japanese was aimed at anyone.
Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3947  July 27, 2018, 06:10:05 am
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DivineWolf, all I want to ask is if you've ever had to step in and tell JZ to stop insulting anyone? It tends to not go well. I could show you PMs =p
Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3948  July 27, 2018, 06:16:55 am
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For those of you who look at the current situation in a vacuum, JZ's ban might seem excessive use of force for what's just a handful of petty insults. Thing is, we're not talking about a single action here but a clearly established pattern on his side. Let's take a look his posting history shall we:

- JZ had the bad habit of making posts and the deleting them quickly, said ephemeral masterpieces were usually insults or variations of the word "nigger". His editing privileges were revoked for a while for this:

http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/the-edit-button--108955.20.html

- Jesuszilla was one of the few users who mourned the loss of the transparent tag (yours truly did as well). He used it for similar purposes as the quick edits. Worth noting is that he kept trying different workarounds such as specific hues of blue to blend with the forum's background color.

http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/okay-whos-genius-who-decided-that-no-form-trans-text-be-allowed-137832.0.html

- Jesuszilla has also taken shots at people directly through his own mugen works. He thought it'd be clever to hide stuff in Bluestreak's CNS files.

http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/split-jzss-wip-thread-tied-recent-releases-ethics-feedback-thread-157067.0.html

- My memory is a bit hazy on this one and I can't find a useful link, but at one point JZ used his signature to jab at people in japanese (Sean Altly maybe?). He was told to cut that shit off. It's referenced in the link above, if you bother to read thru all of it.

- And here we stand today, at the apex of JZ passive agressiveness: hidden text and hidden text in *japanese* beneath his signature, where only he himself he could see it (or so he thought). This game of cat and mouse has obviously gone way too fucking far.
Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3949  July 27, 2018, 06:56:39 am
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what the actual fuck was that last thread
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#3950  July 27, 2018, 07:09:46 am
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Again, it was—at most—barely a year ago, because it references a thing that didn't exist until a year ago. In fact, it probably was edited in around the time of this post. That's not something that anyone could confuse as being written 5 years ago.

Adding something completely unrelated to something you wrote 5 years ago a year ago (Among quite a lot of text to boot if we include the image links and all the bloat caused by code tags) isn't the same thing as writing the entire thing a year ago. I know that very well because I used to have more complex signatures in the past and whenever I added something new to it I completely glanced over the old text (Which is why I kinda disagree with what Walruslui said) but all of this is irrelevant crap, you're just spinning the focus to another point here.

My point wasn't to discuss whether he added it 1 year ago or 5, I specifically mention how BS it is that he got permabanned for not remembering something as uneventful as when was the last time he edited his post. Especially when a year ago is still a fuckton of time and you're expecting him to remember something as stupid as the date he added a reference to a buffering method he most likely doesn't even remember when was first posted (I know I don't, it feels like it's been YEARS since it was first talked about when it's like a year old at max) and maybe doesn't even remember that it was part of his sig by now.


I mean, it was in fact just a random user who had ad-blocked images and thus had the message show up, but I guess that's not gonna convince anyone who's talking about "contrived stories". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A random user who just happened to care about his sig, about the user in particular, about the meaning of the text of that sig, went far enough to figure out that it talked about a staff member or something like that, had the foresight to think that it was anything remotely interesting to the staff team to boot and sent a picture of it to the mods. It's so convoluted I would've named that person a moderator right on the spot just for doing all of that, but I'm not an admin so I can't do something that stupid. This forum is lucky to have admins that edit insults into other peoples' profiles instead of doing stupid shit like that.

The worst part is that I believe it, I don't think you're actually lying there. I was interested in knowing how the fuck does anyone find that message after so many years and if that's the answer I'll take it. Is not like I have a way to know whether it's a lie or not and is not like it ultimately changes anything when it comes to the permaban anyway.

None of us besides JNP knew because, well, JZ was banned, and wasn't making new posts. It's not some weird conspiracy, man! We all agreed to remove that stuff as soon as we were alerted to it!

I'm aware that moderators often take solo action here, and that's the damn problem to begin with. How isn't the mod staff instructed to stay professional and not do this kind of stupid crap is beyond me and if you are instructed to do so yet do this anyway then if anything you as a team should at least reflect on that and do better from here on.

At no point should anyone ever take a decision such as negatively modify a profile this way alone and people expect better from people like you who are in this position since years. If you all are against swapping moderators and admin spots every few years to keep the team level headed and believe the current team to be as solid as it can then the least you can do is not do this shit ever again. Not even "For fun". This is the "Feedback to warnings/decisions" thread right? In case my feedback was too long to read then here's the TL;DR: Get your shit together.

Also, just an FYI, the initial decision to increase the ban length to perma was not discussed with the mod team, so we had to grab everyone and have a big conversation about all this. We discussed the whole lying thing and whether stuff said off the forum has bearing on ban length, but it's still such a blatant, obvious falsehood and skeezy that the original ban was simply not severe enough.

So: the permaban is off the table, but the original ban has been increased from three months to a year. That is all.

Again, why are these decisions taken so lightly and not discussed beforehand to begin with? Why are they announced so gallantly with no thought behind them? I've seen this happen over and over and the staff having to backtrack every now and then I'm surprised that you guys have yet to get the hint. You discuss these things with your team first, you check as many point of views as possible beforehand. This is one of the main problems with the mod team, that you just lack variety in general among the actually active members so almost all of you think the same, and the ones who don't think the same somehow get their shit spun into your point of view anyway like what happened exactly in this thread.

The original ban was more than fine, he broke the rules he pays the price and that's it. But spinning what OG said into "HE LIED TO A STAFF MEMBER, BAN HIM EVEN MORE" is stupid, ridiculous and personal as fuck and you'll be hard pressed to convince most of the people that's not personal at all. He didn't deliberately lie to Orochigill because why the fuck would he do that when it would've changed shit if he told him he edited his sig a year ago instead of five? The ban was going to stay anyway, Orochigill would've thought the same about the event anyway, there was literally no reason to lie about it.

The rest of the staff didn't know I edited the insults to direct back at him. It was all me, I've advocated not doing it for almost 2 decades. If he can't handle someone that has never EVER done anything back to him after he has targeted me for so many years simply redirecting his silly insults back at him then i dunno. It wasn't right for me to do it. But you're also being ridiculous and pedantic. You're defending someone that has lashed out at people for nearly 15 years. Of course some of them may want him gone. TBF if the cycle had been going sooner he'd been perma banned long ago. Dude's been banned so many times for the same BS. You can't just hand wave that he's not an asshole.

Let me be as blunt as I've never been to you in all these years, I sincerely don't give a flying fuck about your history with him and how many times you had to tolerate him saying shit about you and neither I give a fuck about whether you said anything bad about him in all these years or not via forum posts or in private. I'm sure he gives a flying fuck about your opinion on him too, that was never the point of my post.

My point was that you as a moderator abused your position to do exactly the same thing you're punishing somebody for, thus not only being a hypocrite but also terrible moderator in the process. I don't recall anywhere in my last post saying that he wasn't an asshole or that he didn't deserve a ban, I said that the permanent ban was a blatantly personal move and that his profile editing was a very unprofessional move from the mod team in general (I don't care WHO did it, you should move AS A TEAM, that's why you are a MOD TEAM).

You fixed the profile? Good. That's progress, you're excused, no one died and we all move on. Now never do it again. You're part of the mod staff for a reason, if you cannot behave like one then leave. This is my feedback, in the feedback thread, take it or leave it, your choice. I don't have a personal problem with you so you can take my feedback at face value, be it positively or negatively, your choice too.

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#3951  July 27, 2018, 07:09:58 am
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All this looks like is an excuse to try to justify that he suddenly deserved a permaban because he edited a sig 1 year ago instead of 5 (Exactly what it was said in the warnings thread, no one ever brought all that shit up and it wasn't relevant to the extension and you know it). Are you telling me that absolutely all of those things you just posted had anything to do with spinning Orochigill's story from telling him a wrong date to an outright deliberate lie even though ultimately none of those things (That go all the way back to 2009) had anything to do with purposely misinterpreting him to begin with?

Furthermore, if he deserved to be permabanned years ago like JNP implies, then you should've done that on the spot back then, not wait five years for him to fuck up with a statement where he wasn't even deliberately lying to begin with. In fact, as a private forum, I would have far more respect towards the staff if you all outright banned him just because you don't like him rather than wait for the "Perfect" excuse. This is a private forum, you have the right to prohibit the admission of anyone you personally don't like, yet you went with this convoluted and stupid plan in order to not to taint the forum's image in the process (Because obviously people wont go to a forum where others are banned just because).

Also since we're going back to freakin 2009 to justify a permaban with petty shit, should we worry about the patterns you established for yourself over the years with tasteless jokes and out of touch and cynic statements? Because it's not everyday that you see a gem like this being posted by a moderator:



(Even more "Hilarious" when you find out that Billy's actor was bullied for being gay and ended up quitting the show because he couldn't take it anymore)

Yet no one in the staff seems to object your position anyway. That funny part when you can be part of the mod staff and joke about gay people yet can't have hidden messages in your characters because?????????????????????????????? But I digress, and I hope you realize that just because I've done stupid shit in the past (And oh boy can you fill an entire forum's worth with that) doesn't mean I cannot call you out.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Just keep in mind that this wall of text isn't necessarily about Jesuszilla. If you've not even permabanned but just extended his or anyone else's ban over something like this (Right after spinning a fellow moderator's words to fit your narrative) I would be just as disappointed (With the only difference here being that I have some background on the people involved). And you know what's the best part? That this is the feedback to warnings discussion yet you're going to dismiss all the negativity towards this decision because it's clear that the most decisive part of the staff thinks exactly the same about everything and that you're not here to get feedback, you're here to look who's """Defending""" him to have a laugh at them and move on, completely missing the point of the feedback.

Keep his initial ban but remove the extension to prove that it's not a personal issue. Anything more than that proves that the mod is taking things way too personal. Your choice.

lui

Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3952  July 27, 2018, 07:16:06 am
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it's been reduced to a year.

it was reduced way before you posted this paragraph.

while i think perma isn't neccessary at all i am not opposed to anything that's long either. as long as something is done so other users don't get any funny ideas.
Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3953  July 27, 2018, 07:20:34 am
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You're full of shit RedNavi. There's your professionalism

lui

Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3954  July 27, 2018, 07:27:41 am
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Keep his initial ban but remove the extension to prove that it's not a personal issue. Anything more than that proves that the mod is taking things way too personal. Your choice.

ah, this feels like 2010 all over again.

we back in the golden age bois

DW

Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3955  July 27, 2018, 08:07:20 am
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DivineWolf, all I want to ask is if you've ever had to step in and tell JZ to stop insulting anyone? It tends to not go well. I could show you PMs =p

I'm not a moderator, so I would never really be in a position to do that for anyone. I'm not gonna do it just to do it. I barely pay any attention to anyone. If you ain't talking MUGEN, and even that isn't guaranteed, I'm more than likely to just keep it moving.

You're full of shit RedNavi. There's your professionalism

Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3956  July 27, 2018, 08:24:29 am
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daamn. never thought this would spiral into a full on attack on the mods, but yeah red is right (also, how you managed to piss off jnp to that point is beyond me lol).

let me make something clear: i didn't defend JZ. i don't even like him.
i was curious about that japanese text, and i thought that permaban was extremely unfair and silly for anyone. thats why i commented.
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Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3957  July 27, 2018, 08:36:33 am
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rednavi's post is

1: extremely convoluted and brings up comepletely unrelated subjects just to try and make some sorta jumbled arguement including bringing up stuff that involved a bad-in-taste gay joke that had nothing do with jz or the subject of the post whatsoever. he tries to spin it as "if we're banning him for making stupid remarks like that why don't we ban everyone else that does dumb jokes" when he didnt even see that jz wasnt banned for the remarks themselves by default.

2: is pretty silly in itself as it derails completely from why jz was actually banned in favor of trying to spin this narrative that it was essentially a mob thing and that boohoo they're too hard on jz.

3: is even worse considering the last sentence trying to do a whole "either lessen his ban or it shows you're completely unfair and abusive" spin on everyone that agreed to ban him which is again, pretty fucking dumb considering they lessened his ban way before he fucking posted.


it gets even worse considering EVERYTHING was summed up in the last sentence making that whole drunken, jarred and jumbled mess of a paragraph completely pointless.

he's saying this is all petty when he literally logged on after such a long time just to post this shit because im assuming jz asked him to. cant even be bothered to do a decent cohesive post.


anyone who posts like he did and wants to think just like him is a damn child. we're all adults here, stop acting as if it's some dude bullying another guy for the sake of other reasons. i am not past lessening JZ's ban but you're not doing him any favors by thinking this way, it's just showing he hasn't really improved at all when this is the thing that gets posted right after he lies :/

Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 08:42:01 am by Walruslui
Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3958  July 27, 2018, 08:40:06 am
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I'm not pissed :P

I'm just not going to go into that crazy long winded post in detail. I explained what happened. I can't help that his buddy has burned bridges for one and a half decades.
Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3959  July 27, 2018, 09:26:18 am
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Since reading is not your forte here's an abridged version:

* User gets banned.
* User talks about it with a mod somewhere else, in a casual talk (Not even trying to get himself unbanned).
* He commits the sin of forgetting when was the last time he edited his sig <- Something COMPLETELY irrelevant to this as it wasn't going to change anything.
* Somehow, that detail is now grounds for a permanent ban (Which would've stayed that way if it wasn't because of people posting here).
* Around half of the mod team wanted to get rid of him since forever but were waiting for an excuse to not to make it look personal.
* Somehow after 5 years of waiting they still fail at that.

How do you expect anyone to not to even get the slightest impression that this isn't a personal thing is beyond me, especially you with your years here.

he's saying this is all petty when he literally logged on after such a long time just to post this shit because im assuming jz asked him to. cant even be bothered to do a decent cohesive post.

anyone who posts like he did and wants to think just like him is a damn child. we're all adults here, stop acting as if it's some dude bullying another guy for the sake of other reasons. i am not past lessening JZ's ban but you're not doing him any favors by thinking this way, it's just showing he hasn't really improved at all when this is the thing that gets posted right after he lies :/

...Actually don't bother answering that, I can get where you're coming from with this.

Unlike more than half of the staff here, I have my own ideals. He doesn't even know the mess this thread is yet. In fact, he knows that I would never EVER post on behalf of someone else when asked precisely because he understands that I've never been that kind of person (He never EVER asked me to defend him once in almost TEN YEARS) and that I take that shit as an offense (And your admin thinking otherwise was the point where I said "Fuck it" and cut all ties). I wasn't here during the last 10 times he had a crash with the mod staff yet me being here right now is such a big deal?

In fact, you're doing EXACTLY what your admin talked about, tagging anyone who DARES to disagree with his extension as part of the so-called defense force, when I'm doing this entirely on my own and I would've done the same for anyone I remotely knew of for years including you.
So please spare me the edgy shit while you're at it, I thought you were done with that phase a year ago.

If anything, I'm actually MORE annoyed by the fact that the mod team used Orochigill for such end than about the extension itself being BS (Even now after no longer being a permanent one). Dude's a nice guy and he doesn't deserve to go through this shitty event. Is not like the staff makes that much use of dissident opinions anyway, with pretty much the rest of the team always gravitating towards one particular person so I'm not sure why he's still part of it at this point, I would've quit eons ago.
Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions
#3960  July 27, 2018, 09:31:07 am
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* Somehow, that detail is now grounds for a permanent ban (Which would've stayed that way if it wasn't because of people posting here).
* Around half of the mod team wanted to get rid of him since forever but were waiting for an excuse to not to make it look personal.
Hey bud, but just a quick head's up: it's usually considered poor form to make grand assumptions about conversations you aren't privy to. You might be surprised to learn that not a single mod, other than the one who switched to the ban to permanent, wanted anything other than a ban that would eventually expire. You might also be surprised to learn that we were having our big, drawn out mod-talk conversation well before any of the uproar in this thread!

My point wasn't to discuss whether he added it 1 year ago or 5, I specifically mention how BS it is that he got permabanned for not remembering something as uneventful as when was the last time he edited his post. Especially when a year ago is still a fuckton of time and you're expecting him to remember something as stupid as the date he added a reference to a buffering method he most likely doesn't even remember when was first posted (I know I don't, it feels like it's been YEARS since it was first talked about when it's like a year old at max) and maybe doesn't even remember that it was part of his sig by now.
Sorry, but I don't think literally anyone on the mod team can believe that someone could confuse "a few months ago" with "five years ago" so easily. It was very obviously an attempt to elide the issue, and is such an absurd deflection that it called into question what we had decided would be the original ban length.

A random user who just happened to care about his sig, about the user in particular, about the meaning of the text of that sig, went far enough to figure out that it talked about a staff member or something like that, had the foresight to think that it was anything remotely interesting to the staff team to boot and sent a picture of it to the mods. It's so convoluted I would've named that person a moderator right on the spot just for doing all of that, but I'm not an admin so I can't do something that stupid. This forum is lucky to have admins that edit insults into other peoples' profiles instead of doing stupid shit like that.
I know you haven't been around lately, so you've probably missed all this very dumb, pointless drama about buffering systems; suffice it to say, it's somewhat well known enough that the user in question was vaguely familiar with it, and thus noticed the part about the buffer. It's really not that inexplicable that, after scrolling past the same sig over and over, that that user might eventually pick up on it.

At no point should anyone ever take a decision such as negatively modify a profile this way alone and people expect better from people like you who are in this position since years. If you all are against swapping moderators and admin spots every few years to keep the team level headed and believe the current team to be as solid as it can then the least you can do is not do this shit ever again. Not even "For fun". This is the "Feedback to warnings/decisions" thread right? In case my feedback was too long to read then here's the TL;DR: Get your shit together.
The party responsible has said they're sorry (which, incidentally, was more than the user who got banned has done :V). I dunno what else you want here, dude.

As mighty and flawless as we mods might appear, in the end we're only human! We can make mistakes, think better of them, and try and apologize for them. This is an unpaid gig for small forum of a dying, 20 year old fighting game engine; it's not exactly high stakes or anything.

Again, why are these decisions taken so lightly and not discussed beforehand to begin with? Why are they announced so gallantly with no thought behind them? I've seen this happen over and over and the staff having to backtrack every now and then I'm surprised that you guys have yet to get the hint. You discuss these things with your team first, you check as many point of views as possible beforehand. This is one of the main problems with the mod team, that you just lack variety in general among the actually active members so almost all of you think the same, and the ones who don't think the same somehow get their shit spun into your point of view anyway like what happened exactly in this thread.
Sometimes a mod might make a rash decision that they think is an obvious choice that everyone will agree with, only to find out that things are more complicated than they thought. This is far from the first time it's happened, and it's honestly not that big of a deal: extending a ban from 3 months to forever and then back to 1 year in the span of a few hours is simply not much of an issue. We've had many a disagreement about ban durations before, and there's like, one time where things turned out to actually be a problem (a user that should've been banned for several months was only given a temporary 3 day ban while the staff figured out how long the "real" length should be, but then the conversation never concluded and the 3 days passed and the user was unbanned).

This, fortunately, was not one of those situations. The ban was set for such a long duration that us switching things back and forth didn't actually impact anything. We had a big round table and argued a bunch and eventually worked it out, with no major problems.

Keep his initial ban but remove the extension to prove that it's not a personal issue. Anything more than that proves that the mod is taking things way too personal. Your choice.
Thanks for the suggestion, but the moderation staff has already made its decision. :)