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Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami (Read 4768 times)

Started by Not a Blanka player, April 21, 2019, 02:40:00 am
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Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#1  April 21, 2019, 02:40:00 am
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Working on Genjuro from Samurai Shodown in Jmorphman's CvS-ish system.

Features:
- Moveset from Samurai Shodown V Special, the best Samurai Shodown game.
- Accurate hitboxes from Samurai Shodown V Special.
- Fame data adjusted to CvS standards by comparing Haohmaru and Nakoruru.
- Small color separation.
- A character that should feel right for both CvS2 and SSVSP players.

I've been toying around with Fighter Factory for about one year now. Started this project ten days ago. This is my first character and I'm learning a lot stuff on the get go. I would like to thank people from MUGEN.NET and Cyanide, Bannana, and Vans for helping me out when in trouble. Also Jmorphman for both the template and helping.


Spoiler: To do (click to see content)

I still don't know how to do a palette template but I'll look in to it later and post the result here to get some palettes.
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#2  April 21, 2019, 02:44:57 am
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Ooooh. Nice FX on the Slash Moves.
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#3  April 21, 2019, 02:55:53 am
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First of: good choice!
Second: nice FX!
Third: why not using Dampir's CvS sheet, if you're with a Jmorphman's style?(just a suggestion, not a request).
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

PS: And also a cool user portrait. Touch-a touch-a touch-a touch me / I wanna be dirty! Chill me, thrill me, fulfill me / Creature of the night!
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#4  April 21, 2019, 04:09:32 am
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I prefer SSV sprites, they're more consistent.

Also cool user portrait too.
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#5  April 21, 2019, 06:32:01 am
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hey! Glad to see you're making progress with him!
when you're ready for beta testing I will gladly continue to help you with this.
more SamSho chars are always welcome.
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#6  April 21, 2019, 04:23:56 pm
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holy crap! nice! one of my favs from ss!
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#7  April 21, 2019, 05:32:54 pm
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One of my dream characters for mugen. I wish you good luck in your endeavours - Genjuro looks good so far.
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#8  April 21, 2019, 06:38:15 pm
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Very cool.

I would like the samurai spirits chars could be more valorized in CVS style, Charlotte,jubei and ukyo can be great in this style.
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#9  April 22, 2019, 07:53:40 pm
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So I've been working on Genjuro a little bit more, mainly on fixing and adding stuff. Now the crossup on MP and HP rekkas work as they should.

Spoiler: To do (click to see content)

I think I'm gonna release a beta version of Genjuro and his palette template once the highlighted issues are done.

Thanks to everyone for the support.
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#10  April 23, 2019, 03:31:25 pm
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Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#11  April 23, 2019, 04:35:37 pm
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here's my feedback

- the cancel window from one stage of Sanrensatsu to the next seems very strict, both by SS standards and CvS standards, you can look at Kyo or Iori's rekkas for reference.
- Jumping slashes FX continue to play after you land if you do it close to the ground, it looks very weird because the attack didn't come out, but the slash FX did.
- his back throw animation looks very very odd, he seems to turn around but then he's on the same side, if you look at how it's done on SSV: Special it looks much better there.
- the sword stays in front of P2 on Hyakkisatsu success animation, you could crop the sword in a different animation and spawn a helper / explod to make it look like it goes through the enemy.
- he goes below the ground when bouncing from a knockdown
- his crouching HP is extremely fast for the range and damage it does, I think some balancing is necessary there.

- I think close MP should be special cancellable, that's just my personal opinion, not a flaw with the character.

that's all I found for now.
Aside from that, he feels really good to play coming from a SSV Genjuro player. I'll post if I find anything else.

DW

Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#12  April 23, 2019, 07:13:03 pm
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-While using something like SSV as a guideline for range and priority of attacks and his overall clsns is cool, I advise against using them exactly from said game. None of the chars use their hitboxes from another specific/respective game in CvS. The pacing is different. SS is a slower, poking, high risk/high reward kinda game. CvS is Capcom based. Faster, more combo oriented. You'll have to adjust the char overall to reflect that, so in sync, his hitboxes should follow suit. A approximation of a CvS theme is what you're striving for after all.

-Back roll has no invulnerability.

-Projectiles are not restricted properly:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
His slow animation will not make up for this.

-Dodge kick variant leads to invalid state:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

-DP has no invulnerability on startup, or any type of clsns mapping to compensate. Which means you won't be using this for any type of interrupting. Also, HP version just flies over most people's heads. The damage on these attacks aren't very good either. Disregard the first part. Clsns are mapped to give him priority on startup.

-Should use CvS slash whiff and sword guard SFX for sword attacks.

-A suggestion: Instead of neutral j.HP having an alternate animation, while having j.MK/HK being the same thing, just slightly sped up for HK; Using that anim for his j.HK would give him more variety and give the player incentive to use at least one of his jump kick attacks. Cause as they are now, they're not very good.

-Why is stand far HP basically 100 damage stronger than close HP? I know far attacks should be stronger than close, but that's quite a boost. On that note, close stand LP/LK cause the same damage as their far variants. Also, you have another odd damage spike with close/far stand MP(32/70).

Feels good for the most part. Can't really get a full picture until he's further along. Though you have a solid/strong foundation and that's where it all starts.
Last Edit: April 23, 2019, 07:25:43 pm by DW
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#13  April 23, 2019, 08:20:57 pm
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A quick custom palette.
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#14  April 23, 2019, 11:20:33 pm
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Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 12:11:39 am by sabockee
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#15  April 23, 2019, 11:44:54 pm
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- the cancel window from one stage of Sanrensatsu to the next seems very strict, both by SS standards and CvS standards, you can look at Kyo or Iori's rekkas for reference.
- Fixed.
- Jumping slashes FX continue to play after you land if you do it close to the ground, it looks very weird because the attack didn't come out, but the slash FX did.
- Fixed.
- his back throw animation looks very very odd, he seems to turn around but then he's on the same side, if you look at how it's done on SSV: Special it looks much better there.
- Now it's done just like SSV: Special, I was trying to be consistent with Jmorphman characters but you're right.
- the sword stays in front of P2 on Hyakkisatsu success animation, you could crop the sword in a different animation and spawn a helper / explod to make it look like it goes through the enemy.
-Hahahaha it looked really stupid. Fixed, thanks for the suggestion, I actually did not have any clue on how to handle that.
- he goes below the ground when bouncing from a knockdown
- Agaisnt which moves? I can't seem to replicate this.
- his crouching HP is extremely fast for the range and damage it does, I think some balancing is necessary there.
- I overlooked this so bad, you're right. Gotta nerf that soon.
- I think close MP should be special cancellable, that's just my personal opinion, not a flaw with the character.
- It supposed to be canceled actually, but a piece of code was preventing it. Fixed, thanks.
-While using something like SSV as a guideline for range and priority of attacks and his overall clsns is cool, I advise against using them exactly from said game. None of the chars use their hitboxes from another specific/respective game in CvS. The pacing is different. SS is a slower, poking, high risk/high reward kinda game. CvS is Capcom based. Faster, more combo oriented. You'll have to adjust the char overall to reflect that, so in sync, his hitboxes should follow suit. A approximation of a CvS theme is what you're striving for after all.
- I partially agree with you on this, and I'll try to look into it towards the final release mainly because I'm not really sure on how to handle hitboxes. It's true that none of CvS characters use the hitboxes from source, but I honestly don't get the criteria behind on how Capcom adapted them. I mean, they make the game from scratch, don't really think that there's that much criteria. For now the hitboxes are functional enough, and my gameplay design is not good enough to pull hitboxes out of my ass and have a good result.

Now let's be clear on something. While it's true that CvS is faster and more combo oriented, Haohmaru playstyle in CvS is not. At least not if you want to play him in an optimal way. Maybe that's why he's kinda bad even having a solid match up agaisnt Sagat. He's more about pokes than specials and comboing, with a high risk/high reward kinda game (just like you descrived SS). Haohmaru honestly feels like he's a character from a different game, which is good IMO (nearly every character from SSVSP feel like they come from another game due to their stupid gimmicks, and that's what makes SSVSP one of my favourite fightning games of all times). I tried to speed up most of Genjuro's stuff by comparing his moves to the two adaptations of Haohmaru (in terms of velocities, frame data and damage). As a result Genjuro should feel just like Haohmaru in terms of slow gameplay.

Sorry for the wall of text but I wanted to substantiate mi vision on how Genjuro could have been if he was on CvS.
-Back roll has no invulnerability.
- Fixed. There were a fuck ton of issues with the roll and dodges thank you so much for reporting this.
-Projectiles are not restricted properly:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
His slow animation will not make up for this.
- Fixed.

-Dodge kick variant leads to invalid state:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
- Fixed.

-DP has no invulnerability on startup, or any type of clsns mapping to compensate. Which means you won't be using this for any type of interrupting. Also, HP version just flies over most people's heads. The damage on these attacks aren't very good either. Disregard the first part. Clsns are mapped to give him priority on startup.
- He's supposed to have invul on the top part of his body, ye. Actually that's how HP version works in source, he just flies over regular standing opponents (I think he can hit gedo). The move has really good range and fast startup but goes over most of the standing characters, which is why LP version is way more useful. In SvC the move works very differently, but I'm trying to avoid using SvC as reference mainly because I hate that crappy game and love SamSho V haha. About damage, the move does tiny damage on source but I'll look into it.

-Should use CvS slash whiff and sword guard SFX for sword attacks.
- With whiff you mean the woosh sounds of snd's Group 2? I'm using the same as POTS Nakoruru. Added sword guard sfx.

-A suggestion: Instead of neutral j.HP having an alternate animation, while having j.MK/HK being the same thing, just slightly sped up for HK; Using that anim for his j.HK would give him more variety and give the player incentive to use at least one of his jump kick attacks. Cause as they are now, they're not very good.
- Gotta be honest, I'm really tempted on making this change, but I want to avoid using slash animations for jumping kicks really bad. j.lp and j.mp are based on Haohmaru air kicks on CvS (he even uses the same anim for both j.mp and j.hp haha). I agree that they're not that good. I'll see what I do.

-Why is stand far HP basically 100 damage stronger than close HP? I know far attacks should be stronger than close, but that's quite a boost. On that note, close stand LP/LK cause the same damage as their far variants. Also, you have another odd damage spike with close/far stand MP(32/70).
- HP damage difference cames from CvS Haohmaru too. far HP does 3000 damage and cl HP does 1800, reasonable considering how open Haohmaru is when he doesn't hit far HP. Fixed LP/LK. Will look into close/far MP, the jump is quite high in SSV but I did something wrong because is not more than double.

Feels good for the most part. Can't really get a full picture until he's further along. Though you have a solid/strong foundation and that's where it all starts.
- I'll start working on EX and Supers once I can polish the foundation a little bit more.

Thanks to you both for the feedback, is really helpful. You might have play this beta and feel that a lot of things are out of place, that's because this is my very first character and while I'm having a lot of fun, some things are quite hard to get into.

And thanks you both sabockee and RagingRowen for the palettes, those are quite nice.

If anyone is interested on helping me out, I would really appreciate a small portrait and palettes. Would also be really cool if someone comes up with any idea of special intros agaisnt Sagat (scar thing), Iori (red hair thing) and Haohmaru (rival thing) using existing sprites. Coding help is well received too ofc.
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#16  April 24, 2019, 12:35:13 am
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DW

Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#17  April 24, 2019, 02:52:32 am
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- I partially agree with you on this, and I'll try to look into it towards the final release mainly because I'm not really sure on how to handle hitboxes. It's true that none of CvS characters use the hitboxes from source, but I honestly don't get the criteria behind on how Capcom adapted them. I mean, they make the game from scratch, don't really think that there's that much criteria. For now the hitboxes are functional enough, and my gameplay design is not good enough to pull hitboxes out of my ass and have a good result.

Now let's be clear on something. While it's true that CvS is faster and more combo oriented, Haohmaru playstyle in CvS is not. At least not if you want to play him in an optimal way. Maybe that's why he's kinda bad even having a solid match up agaisnt Sagat. He's more about pokes than specials and comboing, with a high risk/high reward kinda game (just like you descrived SS). Haohmaru honestly feels like he's a character from a different game, which is good IMO (nearly every character from SSVSP feel like they come from another game due to their stupid gimmicks, and that's what makes SSVSP one of my favourite fightning games of all times). I tried to speed up most of Genjuro's stuff by comparing his moves to the two adaptations of Haohmaru (in terms of velocities, frame data and damage). As a result Genjuro should feel just like Haohmaru in terms of slow gameplay.

You're jumping to assumptions. I never said Haohmaru was a faster combo char in CvS. Though he is a fair bit faster than his SS incarnations. Haohmaru is a slower char in the cast, but I disagree that he feels out of place. It's just a different approach you have to take with him. Your Genjuro speed wise, feels alright. That was never a cause for concern. I'm saying his clsns are odd for the format you adapting to, because the game they're pulled from are from that slower paced style. At any rate, don't worry about it too much, you're good. This is something that can be tweaked over time.

- He's supposed to have invul on the top part of his body, ye. Actually that's how HP version works in source, he just flies over regular standing opponents (I think he can hit gedo). The move has really good range and fast startup but goes over most of the standing characters, which is why LP version is way more useful. In SvC the move works very differently, but I'm trying to avoid using SvC as reference mainly because I hate that crappy game and love SamSho V haha. About damage, the move does tiny damage on source but I'll look into it.

NGBC could be used as a good reference. That game was good, albeit a bit boring.

- With whiff you mean the woosh sounds of snd's Group 2? I'm using the same as POTS Nakoruru. Added sword guard sfx.

I guess? Don't remember what group it is. It sounds different from Haohmaru though.

You might have play this beta and feel that a lot of things are out of place, that's because this is my very first character and while I'm having a lot of fun, some things are quite hard to get into.

Relax man. You're on the right track as I've already said. Just keep having fun and learning as you go.

Would also be really cool if someone comes up with any idea of special intros agaisnt Sagat (scar thing), Iori (red hair thing) and Haohmaru (rival thing) using existing sprites.

Red hair thing?(Iori) I got nothing now, though why Iori and Sagat specifically? I get Haohmaru. Meh, reasoning isn't important. I'll ponder on it a bit and see if I can come up with something.
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#18  April 24, 2019, 09:39:05 pm
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Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#19  April 24, 2019, 10:55:32 pm
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Rivals.
Easy = Issen cross over(ngbc dual assault)
Advanced = Choreograph a fight scene(This is the easiest way to have a special intro with any group of characters)
I would also suggest something to do with rage. Idk if you were going to incorporate as a move.

The coolest thing would be the weapon clash, lack of sprites unfortunately.
Re: Susan Sarandon's WIP thread: Genjuro Kibagami
#20  April 24, 2019, 11:16:34 pm
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Looking forward to this.

As for intros, I would just add an intro with a Jman char as a little nod, let's say an intro with Jman's chun ?
https://youtu.be/n07MHnzAqg0?t=72
Genjuro is a killer after all so that Chun intro won't be out of place.( I have no idea what chun is saying)

Or maybe an intro with Yamazaki/Geese/Rugal/Akuma/Bison/ something among those lines.