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Way to go Dev >:( =P (Read 19114 times)

Started by Just No Point, June 30, 2004, 03:19:01 am
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#41  July 07, 2004, 11:33:25 pm
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I know I'm always off topic ::)

... but Oh - my - God :shocked: !
I can't believe it only took me an hour and a half to read this thread :D

my comments on it later . . .
Last Edit: July 07, 2004, 11:34:13 pm by Spiderboobs
Re: Shortest post so far =P
#42  July 09, 2004, 01:34:26 pm
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Last Edit: July 09, 2004, 01:34:52 pm by Sepp
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#43  July 13, 2004, 01:04:27 am
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Personally, I think I'll wait until I get around to trying to contact someone from Elecbyte myself, probably the weekend after this one (don't wanna bother him while he's busy), before deciding about anything in regard to WinMugen.

The weekend in question ended yesterday... how's the status on that research?...

Not having coordinated efforts with dev (even if involuntarily) did give us some extra liberty to take some more time checking on stuff like this, but it'd come in handy to have some idea of when such info might be available...


As for implications of possibly allowing the discussion of the hack here, would anyone be fundamentaly against the allowing of creation updates made in the same mold as Rou Hei's hack (couple of years of original creator's absence that makes him practically impossible to contact, proper credit given where its due, compromise to withdraw the update if the original creator asks for it) if the original creator never left anything specifically stated about the use of his stuff?...
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#44  July 13, 2004, 02:07:13 am
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Along these same lines, what about taking characters with stolen code/sprites, and cleaning them up (like Ogre, for example)?

You mean taking the illegitimate parts of the character, keeping the legitimate stuff, and hosting it, for example?...
Wouldn't that be technically speaking stealing the legitimate work of the person who stole in the first place?...
Assuming, that is, that after all of the necessary removals enough would remain to work from...
Then again, if handled by the above guidelines (which I should have also applied to partial uses instead of complete creation updates... my bad, but it's still in time to be discussed, I guess...) it might eventually considered legitimate... but extremely controversial...
In fact, wasn't one of the reasons why Eli's version of Silent Storm was kept private (despite being remade from scratch) and toned down (removal of moves) into Tetsu Yatogi for the general public th fact that the concept of the character still belonged in principle to the individual who went by the name Silent Storm and created a character with that same name, and the individual was no longer reacheable?...
Last Edit: July 13, 2004, 02:20:00 am by Loona
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#45  July 13, 2004, 02:17:05 am
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You mean taking the illegitimate parts of the character, keeping the legitimate stuff, and hosting it, for example?...

...and replacing the illegitimate parts with legitimate ones... :P
Last Edit: July 13, 2004, 02:20:06 am by Agent Deku
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#46  July 13, 2004, 02:22:10 am
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I edited my previous post with a tidbit about Eli's take on Silent Storm, but you guys replied in the meantime, so no deleting my own post to repost it for a thread-bump that'll get the changes noticed :P
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#47  July 13, 2004, 03:11:18 am
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Assuming each and every stolen thing is accounted for and replaced, maybe it could be viable... but with the huge amount of stuff released out there that might have gotten stuff taken from, how could one possibly be 100% sure?...

Perhpas for now it'd be better to try and reach an agreement on the simpler cases, and from there move on the to more thorny possibilities based on the previously reached conclusions...
But then again, some might not post at all...
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#48  July 14, 2004, 01:26:09 am
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I don't see any problem with it.
In the case of Ogre you have ALOT to correct though :P

Not talking codewise but accuracy wise.

But how does one know what all coding is stolen and what coding is Jun's?

Unless it is like Psycho Ball d,f,x or something =P
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#49  July 14, 2004, 01:40:58 am
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As for implications of possibly allowing the discussion of the hack here, would anyone be fundamentaly against the allowing of creation updates made in the same mold as Rou Hei's hack (couple of years of original creator's absence that makes him practically impossible to contact, proper credit given where its due, compromise to withdraw the update if the original creator asks for it) if the original creator never left anything specifically stated about the use of his stuff?...

That's something that was long time discussed in DEV and I'm glad that you have mentioned it. It will be great to have a different approach and opinions.

We originally thought about setting a standard of procedure for updating/using abandoned creations. Any creation not following this standard won't be authorized and thus, considered as forbidden. The standard allows protection for both old creations and recent creations. Also, it allows for the rest of the community to easily doublecheck if the updated/modified creation is legit.

What classifies a creation to be updated for being abandoned:

1) Creator cannot be reached by email, IRC, ICQ, MSN or any other way.
2) Creator's site doesn't exist anymore
3) No known friends or contacts that are in touch with the creator, or that can authorize/deny the use fo the abandoned creator.
4) More than 2 years have passed since the release of the character.

Once all these conditions have been checked, the creation can be used as long as a text file is attached with the updated creation.

This text file will contain:

1) Email addresses or methods used to contact the creator without success
2) url of the site that is not existing anymore
3) Name of the people that have been contacted in order to find out if the character was allowed to be used.
4) Date of the last public release.
5) A statement that if the original creator ever returns or decides that no one should work on that creation, the distribution of the updated creation must cease.

Of course, the original creator must be credited always. And if part of sprites/code is used in another character, then the "borrowed" parts must be credited as well.

Private releases and creations that already contained stolen stuff aren't applicable to this new standard.


What do you guys think about it? I would liek to hear your opinion.

 
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Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#50  July 14, 2004, 01:52:29 am
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My 2 cents: I agree with you on those counts pretty much XD, with the exception of excluding creations with stolen stuff: as I already said, cleaning them up might be the best way to do away with them altogether, IMHO.

Certainly, that's easier to be said than to be done. How can you remove stolen stuff from a character like ravenous? :P
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Re: >:( =P
#51  July 14, 2004, 02:03:45 am
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Hooray for bureaucracy.

Can we please not make The Rules of MUGEN 354 pages long? Thank you.

Don't even try to cover every possible case. Updating MUGEN creations that contain stolen material AND ARE AGES OLD?

I admire your imagination. Seriously, deal with that as and if it comes.

Edit: My
"Unless vanished creator was known for messages like DO NOT MODIFY or REDISTRIBUTE, yes." from 3 billion words earlier in this topic stands, and should enough for a guidline.

Exceptions can be dealt with individually, I dare say.

Edit 2:

So, XG's list sounds okay. Who cares if it's been 2 years or 1.75, though? I hope we won't.

Same for things like urls to pages that don't exist. XD
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Last Edit: July 14, 2004, 02:11:18 am by Sepp
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#52  July 14, 2004, 02:28:52 am
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I am one for any leniancy towards a more open community. I always thought a bunch of these rules were a bit rigid.

But don't we have to verify this with other communities 1st? If I recall the japanese community is very picky about "updating".

If not we will be in the same situation as MGBR. Many creators in that community believe all is open source.
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#53  July 14, 2004, 09:47:06 am
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In the case of Ogre you have ALOT to correct though :P

Not talking codewise but accuracy wise.

Ogre doesn't really strike me the kind of character that was meant to be accurate... :P

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But how does one know what all coding is stolen and what coding is Jun's?

In a case like Ogre's, I suspect only the edits and maybe some Clsns would be "salvageable"(?)...


Might be best to go touch and go: ask the community what *exactly* has been stolen in what character/stage etc, and go from there, fixing it up as it comes out.

There might be a problem with that (at least community-wise) if more stolen stuff was identified after a "clean"/"fixed" release...

It might end up being less troublesome to do what Eli did with Silent Storm (I'm not aware of anything stolen in the original - the situations are a bit different, but some controversy applies to both) and remake the creation from scractch, trying to stay somewhat faithful to the concept, but avoiding all of the problems the original had - giving credit to the one who came up with the character concept and all that.


What classifies a creation to be updated for being abandoned:

1) Creator cannot be reached by email, IRC, ICQ, MSN or any other way.
2) Creator's site doesn't exist anymore

There might be cases where the site still exists, but was abandoned, and any contact information there might be outdated...

Quote
3) No known friends or contacts that are in touch with the creator, or that can authorize/deny the use fo the abandoned creator.
4) More than 2 years have passed since the release of the character.

Once all these conditions have been checked, the creation can be used as long as a text file is attached with the updated creation.

This text file will contain:

1) Email addresses or methods used to contact the creator without success
2) url of the site that is not existing anymore

There are cases where people release their creations as attachements in posts of forums that allow for that option, and some people release their stuff direct-linking to the compressed character file in a friend's server - both those cases (and others that I may be forgetting) are examples of creators who didn't have/need actual sites for their stuff...

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3) Name of the people that have been contacted in order to find out if the character was allowed to be used.

I take it this is only worth mentioning if one managed to get an actual reply?...

For example, not that long ago I tried to contact Mouser by e-mail about his Hon-Fu, and got no reply; so some time later I tried to contact H', who released the Sagat Mouser started, also by e-mail, and got no reply either...

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4) Date of the last public release.

This one is important, but can make things quite tricky depending on how accurate you expect it to be - with the absence of a site and the elimination of forums where releases have been made (the EZboard Dev would have been a great resource to check on 2-year-old releases and their exact dates, but it's gone; maybe Charasoon can help with part of it, if it still keeps info from back then...).
Some creators may also leave out date information in their stuff, which makes this a tricky subject...

And then there are things like Mugen Museum's character list - where practically all creator names are mentioned, I think - I think it's a relevant, even if unpopular, example in this case, for it may be one of the very few ways to get or know about really stuff that can't be found anywhere else due to sites and creators leaving alost without a trace...

Due to these factors, accuracy in dates is almost an utopia in some cases, so a rough "tolerance border" of a few months or so might help... like Sepp, I think things might get silly if this talk of dates leads to arguments where no one can be absolutely sure exactly how long it has been, despite the fact that everyone knows it has been well over a year (and a half?) ago..

Quote
5) A statement that if the original creator ever returns or decides that no one should work on that creation, the distribution of the updated creation must cease.

Of course, the original creator must be credited always. And if part of sprites/code is used in another character, then the "borrowed" parts must be credited as well.

Private releases and creations that already contained stolen stuff aren't applicable to this new standard.

If the private release was a quite visibly unfinished beta/alpha and practically everything else above that still applies is true, I do wonder if it'd be that unlegitimate to complete a work that wasn't gong to be completed anyway - but this is a very specific (and unlikely?) case that might be better to handle later after the more "mainstream" situations are agreed on.

As for the stolen stuff, if the stolen stuff was removed in the process... well, same as above - let's deal with the simpler issues first.


Edit: My
"Unless vanished creator was known for messages like DO NOT MODIFY or REDISTRIBUTE, yes." from 3 billion words earlier in this topic stands, and should enough for a guidline.

I'm of that opinion as well, and surely I'm not the only one - however, considering the amount and variety of people in this forum, we really can't afford to ignore other views.

So now that there's a new factor affecting the community, we can at least try to work from the principles under which it was accepted and see how close we can get to "it's OK if the creator said anothing against it" while maintaining a general agreement - hopefully the variety of people who access this section covers a wide enough spectrum of views and experiences for us to end up with something no one in this section or in the community in general will be totally displeased with...


But don't we have to verify this with other communities 1st? If I recall the japanese community is very picky about "updating".

Quite a relevant point...

Well, with RouHei being japanese and characters like Nobuyuki(sp?)'s Magneto already being made compliant with his hack, it seems quite likely that some discussion on these matters has already come up in the Japanese community in one form or another...

Has anyone here looked over Charasoon or another Japanese community hangout and found any mention/discussion on this?...

Or does anyone feel comfortable with Japanese translation engines and their interpretation to try and look for such discussions, and possibly try to toss in some questions there?...

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If not we will be in the same situation as MGBR. Many creators in that community believe all is open source.

And some don't expect to get caught...

DeleteBR doing stuff like hosting RouHei's hack doesn't really help as an example... -_-

ky0

Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#54  July 14, 2004, 12:01:50 pm
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Can we please not make The Rules of MUGEN 354 pages long? Thank you.
you are so right!
Original mugen creations and Vk episodes:
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#55  July 14, 2004, 05:10:07 pm
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Why don't we just base the way we allow these updates on the standard of procedure XG said.

Stating that leniency straying away from these abit will be tolerated under certain circumstances.

I don't want the rules getting longer either :P The standard is a nice base and Loona has good points too so some leaveway from the standard should be acceptable.

If there is more doubt about the way the boards can handle this there are two ways that may make it less explosive.

Make a new release/wip board for creations like this. This way the creator can announce the WIP and ask if he/she is unshure if they are straying too far away from the standard.

Or make it so that only creators can do so in the creator release and private release boards.

The pros of this are that if the person has the creator status it is generally accepted that that person took a descent amount of time and knows the trials and time consuming nature of creating. This way it may be easier for other communities to accept since the creator has already established a knowhow.

The cons of that one is not all people that are creators have this status. OrochiKOF97 for one. And it would not be a good way for any other forums that do not have creator classes to deal with this.

Untill it is cemented a special board would probably be best. This way we can have different mindsets helping the flexibility of this standard.

Who knows maybe we will even find out that we are so tuned to upholding these rules that most other people do not care anymore what all happens to there work.

I am glad we are having this discussion. I never thought I would see the day when we try to ease up on this stuff.

Quote
Ogre doesn't really strike me the kind of character that was meant to be accurate...  :P
His basic structure needs to be more accurate :P Not his moveset. I figure the creator at least wanted the core of the character to be more accurate. At least he better had >:)
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#56  July 15, 2004, 02:56:53 am
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http://www.mugenguild.com/forum/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=11840;start=new;boardseen=1

I think our 1st act should be to change the rules a bit more. WinMugen is still not allowed. However the muting should not be enforced.

We should deal with WinMugen posts as Dev does with requests. The give a link to our request forum.

When someone asks about WinMugen stuff we should just lock the topic and give a link to the WinMugen board at dev.

Of course this is only for WinMugen questions itself and not character/stage/etc development that is the same for Linux or Dos Mugen.

EDIT: I know we cannot combine Dev and The Guild since there are certain things that each do not agree on but is there any other ways we could share the same resources easier?

Like perhaps posting a link to Dev at the top of the Guild forum and on the main site and Dev could add the Guild to the bottom of there page?

EDIT2: I went ahead and did what I said above. There is no reason to keep hiding WinMugen, and no links to it are being posted.

I am trying to get the users to ask WinMugen questions at Dev. Creation questions here. I really need to stop voicing my opinion on this in public though >_< I may start an argument.
Last Edit: July 15, 2004, 04:34:54 am by The Dreamslayer
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#57  July 15, 2004, 04:12:55 pm
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Why don't we just base the way we allow these updates on the standard of procedure XG said.

Stating that leniency straying away from these abit will be tolerated under certain circumstances.

I don't want the rules getting longer either :P The standard is a nice base and Loona has good points too so some leaveway from the standard should be acceptable.

The way I see it, unreacheable creator + lack of any statement against use of stuff + credit where it's due (Sepp and I seem to have forgotten that one in our previous posts in this thread, but it's most certainly a critical aspect that should avoid many problems and misunderstandings) + compromise to withdraw stff if the original creator requests it should be enough. Most other details would appreciated, but hard to enforce...


If something like this were to become acceptable at the forum, should a list of these criteria be posted somewhere as a Sticky?...

If it were posted, it might be taken as encouragement, and we might get, at least at the begining, a flood of "updates" and whatnot, and there might be a lot to check for each of them durng a relatively brief amount of time...

If it weren't posted anywhere, we'd be left to hope that anyone who eventually made such releases would have the good sense to at least mention basic stuff, like credit... as cases that did things right people would gradually begin to see what's required, what's accepted and what's not... hopefully that would lead to a slower, but more stable situation on the long run...

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Make a new release/wip board for creations like this. This way the creator can announce the WIP and ask if he/she is unshure if they are straying too far away from the standard.

Such questions can already be asked in Mugen Discussion before even such a WIP begins... I don't think a special section for it would be necessary...

At most, a Sticky with what may be considered acceptable, as mentioned above...

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Or make it so that only creators can do so in the creator release and private release boards.

The pros of this are that if the person has the creator status it is generally accepted that that person took a descent amount of time and knows the trials and time consuming nature of creating. This way it may be easier for other communities to accept since the creator has already established a knowhow.

Someone who's already earned such a title in most  cases probably shouldn't need to rely on the work of others - modifying stuff is usually more educational for the beginners than it is useful for the veterans...

Didn't Reu and Eli start out by modifying other's work to create their own versions, and didn't that eventually help them to learn to do their own work pretty much from scratch later on?...

Only allowing this for veterans doesn't seem that reasonable IMO...

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The cons of that one is not all people that are creators have this status. OrochiKOF97 for one.

His title was changed some time ago - I guess Nunor must have changed his mind...
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#58  July 15, 2004, 04:55:00 pm
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umm... hello...? winmugen...?

please get to a conclusion fast...
Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#59  July 19, 2004, 12:41:45 am
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[00:27]<Sepp> Next time I post in the topic will so contain "Anyone still wondering why Guild wasn't asked beforehand?" Ugh. Not that I plan to post again there. XD

he's right! this discussion took 5 page full of monster-posts, 1 of them being off-topic about old creators and char updates.

the conclusion will either be "we allow it" or "there is no other way, so we allow it", so what are you discussing about?!

This isn't getting nowhere, so I conclude: We allow it. If there was some other way we could react without killing ourselves, I'd like to hear it.

And we can not wait for Nunor's opinion everytime something's to be decided, because he's just too rarely around.  
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Re:Way to go Dev >:( =P
#60  July 19, 2004, 01:25:11 am
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I'll allow it

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