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In-game Transformations into Other Characters (Read 34433 times)

Started by SSJKJ, October 26, 2014, 03:11:40 am
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In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#1  October 26, 2014, 03:11:40 am
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YO!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm new to Mugen and stuff, and I already have a question.

1) What versions of fighter factory should I be using with Mugen 1.0 characters?
2) Is there a way to make a character transform into another character using that said version? Such as Goku Z2 into SSJ Goku Z2?

That's two questions actually xD.

Any help is most appreciated!

Thanks,

SSJKJ
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#2  October 26, 2014, 05:38:15 am
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I'm curious about this too.. Is there a trigger or sctrl to switch def files  :???: I know you can switch palettes and sffs.. but this I'm not so sure.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#3  October 26, 2014, 05:43:56 am
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In response to OP:
1. FF3
2. It's... not as easy as opening up a program.

In response to the previous post, no, there isn't.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#4  October 26, 2014, 06:51:18 am
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Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#5  October 26, 2014, 06:51:56 am
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You can't switch SFF's.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#6  October 26, 2014, 06:53:30 am
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Thought as much :/
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#7  October 26, 2014, 07:47:49 am
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In theory it should work, it would coincide with RemapPal
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#8  October 26, 2014, 08:00:26 am
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There's no SCTRL or anything of the sort for it.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#9  October 29, 2014, 10:44:58 pm
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Gouketsuji sisters and Neogouki's/LuvlyAngel's KOF Newfaces Team have a word to say to you, people...

"Switch" between characters can be possible in MUGEN, but it's very difficult to do and very few creators achieved it with success. It's A LOT of coding (and helpers, and var(x) and so on) to do, and both characters' sprites and anims should be in the same SFF and AIR respectively. In the case of Z2's Goku (normal and SSJ), you probably have to remake SFF to add both characters into one, then remake the anims in AIR and make a code to change them between the fight

And before you ask: NO. It's impossible to pick 2 already created characters and make the thing you want. If you want to create a character that can switch during the fight, you've to create by yourself.

I hope this helps ;)
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#10  October 30, 2014, 04:50:11 pm
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The problem with that basara is that if goku gets custom stated he wont be "ssj" anymore. It would look really tacky and that's why people have never gone that far with the concept.
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Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#11  October 30, 2014, 05:10:13 pm
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That's why I said that few people achieved it. In most of cases I saw about that, the "transformation" should stop if the character is in a gethit state, but I know cases when it's by time instead hit and the character has custom gethits for his/her alternate self

Other case I forgot was NGBC Yuki and his Atomic Boy transformation, also the change of gameplay and basics (but gethits), mostly seen in KOF, in Korea Team, especifically (May Lee and Jhun Hoon) and in Street Fighter series in the form of Gen
Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 05:13:27 pm by Basara Dandy
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#12  November 07, 2014, 06:46:28 pm
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In game transformations aren't too bad. However, you are basically coding two characters at that point. You have to fully flesh out your base character, then go through the motions for your transformed character as well.

The one major flaw with transformations as the two above me said, is that when the transformed character is put in a custom state, they will use the untransformed sprites. There isn't a practical way around this, BUT, what I did in my character smooths the transition.

Whenever the transformed character goes into a custom state you can flash the screen and add small FX to your character (energy leaving them, etc.) under a helper or state -2, so that it looks like they were forced to detransform by losing power. Then when they come back into their own states (transformed animations, etc.) have the special FX reverse, so it looks like they gained power back and retransformed. That's the best solution I could come up with for the transformation flaw.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#13  November 08, 2014, 03:11:28 am
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Every other solution put forward needs cooperation.

Probably the least intrusive which doesn't need a variable was one E came up with some time ago. Where you actually include each required animation in your .air file. That way the person at the other end can do changeanim if anim = blah, without it buggering up. You would not then use an animation, but assemble it with changeanim2's. The transformee needs them as well for each transformation, but that's something you'd do anyway.

It still requires people to start coding like that. If there is no willingness to set aside a variable it's unlikely to happen.


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Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#14  November 08, 2014, 03:29:45 am
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Wow Cyanide you're still around?

Also, I've never seen that solution around although it makes sense. Can you point out any chars that exist today with E's method implemented?
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#15  November 08, 2014, 03:56:31 am
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Nope, nobody has done it. It's time consuming. The person would have to make 30 or so special animations, and then any custom state is done with a bunch of changeanim2's rather than a single one. It doesn't screw your variables round or require a community variable for it.

Does require the transformations to use a constant + 10000 for all the anims though.


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Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#16  November 09, 2014, 05:12:08 pm
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Every other solution put forward needs cooperation.

Probably the least intrusive which doesn't need a variable was one E came up with some time ago. Where you actually include each required animation in your .air file. That way the person at the other end can do changeanim if anim = blah, without it buggering up. You would not then use an animation, but assemble it with changeanim2's. The transformee needs them as well for each transformation, but that's something you'd do anyway.

It still requires people to start coding like that. If there is no willingness to set aside a variable it's unlikely to happen.
That would only help with the required animations.
But what if an opponent sets the character in question into a custom state (this can happen to almost every regular throw)? Then, E's idea wont work.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#17  November 09, 2014, 08:01:03 pm
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you have no idea what you are talking about, re-read cyanide's posts.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#18  November 09, 2014, 10:19:47 pm
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Every other solution put forward needs cooperation.

Probably the least intrusive which doesn't need a variable was one E came up with some time ago. Where you actually include each required animation in your .air file. That way the person at the other end can do changeanim if anim = blah, without it buggering up. You would not then use an animation, but assemble it with changeanim2's. The transformee needs them as well for each transformation, but that's something you'd do anyway.

It still requires people to start coding like that. If there is no willingness to set aside a variable it's unlikely to happen.
That would only help with the required animations.
But what if an opponent sets the character in question into a custom state (this can happen to almost every regular throw)? Then, E's idea wont work.

I think he knows what he's talking about (and doing)
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#19  November 10, 2014, 03:23:59 am
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He did miss the point, actually.

The proposed solution is hardcoding sprite calls as individual animations and calling them using ChangeAnim2. This would require programming special throw animations frame-by-frame and manually animating them using time triggers.

Changing the required animations in non-custom states has never been a problem and is trivial.

In a way this is making up for what a "ChangeSpr" controller would do.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#20  November 10, 2014, 05:16:23 am
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Wow Cyanide you're still around?

Also, I've never seen that solution around although it makes sense. Can you point out any chars that exist today with E's method implemented?

the characters are private , I am pretty sure i mad a tutorial/post explaining the method, but it's most likely lost in time, you have something like:

[anim 5000000]
5000,000,etc..
[anim 5000010]
5000,010,etc...

etc..

in the air file

then in your required animations instead of calling your own animation that plays all the frames as a single anim, you call frame by frame:

that way the target can have empty getg hit animations and call explods overlays as he will know exactly which sprites are showing.

sry if some "code" comes out weird, I have not done mugen stuff for years now.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#21  November 10, 2014, 05:46:06 am
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I don't think it will allow you to specify numbers that high. Animations are signed ints IINM (why, I don't fucking know).
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#22  November 10, 2014, 05:09:18 pm
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yah, both animatinos and sprites(group,no) are signed ints sprites are very small ints while animations are higher, tho I think teh cap is 16 bit for sprite stuff, 32 bit for animation stuff (so take one 0 off if I went overboard, iirc that's hwo I did it, it's been a few years)
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#23  November 11, 2014, 05:55:23 am
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Dunno, i did a rather long statedef call once and it accepted that. Well over a trillion I forget if i tested animations. Starting out at 10000 or even 100k would be acceptable start points for this.



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Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#24  November 17, 2014, 11:43:57 am
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In my Yun&Yang character, one doesnt transform into another, but it's the same idea.
I just used 20000+ added to all anim/states.
I made the back up player un-throwable, because throws all come down to a lot of things. Things your character cant control. head/mid positions, which sprite is being displayed, those have a major effect. Having a character battle against other random characters just wouldnt work.
But I'd imagine you could make a simple system based on how I do it. (not that my system is simple to begin with)
nothitby all throws, but add in some authors/character names that allow the throws in your character.
In their character you could add 20000 to the animation if P2's name is "yourcharacter" for all throws.
Then you could create the animations just tacking on 20000 to the numbers in the air file. Simple copy/replace/paste job.
In their character the animation would be blank, but your character it should fill in fine.
It'd be 3 steps and you could allow throws for an individual character.... in theory.... I may test it out with my Ibuki and Ryu and release them all if it works properly.

Obviously if you released the character like this it wouldnt work so well against people's unedited versions of the enemy. So if I do go ahead and someone hadnt updated, it'd look ugly, or blank, or just break entirely.

 
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Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#25  November 18, 2014, 07:46:34 pm
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I know nothing about coding or spriting, but i just had an idea, instead of making all new sprites for a character like Goku to go super saiyian why don't people just do a simple palette change and have the normal hair and ssj hair as a helper and switch between?
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#26  November 18, 2014, 08:09:32 pm
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because the hair will be all over the place when the character gets grabbed, plu s a lot of other problems created becasue the helper code is executed before the character code so it becomes harder to coordinate, it's easier to just use alt. animations.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#27  November 22, 2014, 03:19:53 am
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I've coded a transformable character before/ in the process of coding a transformable character. Enemy Custom states are a huge problem. But instead of creating an entire game around transforms, I used an anti-custom state code to deny entry into custom states. It switches the character back to his own set of states once the code detects he is no longer in his own set of state (using a comparison between statedef -2 and -3).

custom states give a lot of flexibility to Mugen, but we don't necessarily need them - there are also targetbinds that can be used as an alternative. Until mugen gets transform support, I'd rather deny the enemy's use of custom states against a transformable character, than to abolish the use of transformable characters or to only have them playable under specific games.

In addition, I believe mugen's future lies in multi-characters, entire games encapsulated within 1 character. we've explored an infinite number of character themes, the next step would be to combine them into sets of themes. :P
wat.
Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 03:27:35 am by Rent
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#28  November 22, 2014, 03:39:09 am
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custom states give a lot of flexibility to Mugen, but we don't necessarily need them - there are also targetbinds that can be used as an alternative.
what the hell are you talking about?


Until mugen gets transform support, I'd rather deny the enemy's use of custom states against a transformable character, than to abolish the use of transformable characters or to only have them playable under specific games.
No, no, NO. Do not do this.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#29  November 22, 2014, 04:06:24 am
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Removing the option of custom states for your opponent destroys a huge number of moves. I assume you never play grapplers. Cos this nullifies 90% of their attacks. It kills all throws. It kills certain attacks that display fancy hit anims like stun or dizzy. It breaks more than it fixes. You either have your character changing back, briefly to the non transformed state, or you remove most of a characters move set. Which is more problematic?


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Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#30  November 22, 2014, 06:18:52 am
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Well, the point of obfuscating enemy custom states is to get rid of potential bugs against new characters. If custom state obfuscation increases the amount of bugs, then I'm wrong. But if it takes away gameplay features of a certain framework -- then that is a preference. We do it all the time -- with boss characters, superarmors, mini-games in exchange for novel experiences.

As a developer of a transformable character, I'd prefer to have my transform re-interpret entry into a custom state as a normal hit, than to have it go haywire in a custom state. I can't have my transform malfunctioning against another character because that other character wasn't conditioned. There is a lot of gameplay value when using custom states. But there is also a lot of value in transformable characters. The two just have a hard time coexisting.

I suppose this argument is hard because we have different assumptions about what we want/expect out of mugen: We establish a specific framework for a set of characters to achieve fairness, BUT it limits diversity. ie. skills grappling could be the deciding factor in who wins a match. Without this framework, developers are free to create what they want, but then matchups become completely unfair. So ultimately, it comes down to our preferences about what we want out of the game as individuals.
wat.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#31  November 22, 2014, 07:31:04 am
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You character will be increasing bugs when the grappler has 90% of his moveset NULLIFIED so your character can stay in a fancy sprite form. The way around this is not up to the grappler. His moves work perfectly on most of mugen. And in fact work on your character provided it's not transformed.

At that point, the problem is yours. "works on everything except X" means X is the problem. In this case, your solution is X.


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Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#32  November 22, 2014, 07:34:49 am
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also transformations don't hold as high a value as custom states do, I'm sorry but looking fancy(trans) does not outweigh doing fancy things(custom states)

Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#33  November 22, 2014, 09:41:50 am
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actually, the more I think about it, you're right, it's a disservice to take away an opponent's features, for a transform's visual consistency. and it ultimately hurts the game's experience. At first I was thinking that if it's acceptable for boss characters, then it should be acceptable for transforms. but the difference is that boss characters are intended this way, whereas transforms had to be augmented due to a fundamental flaw in Mugen's design.

Truth be told, there really was never a concrete method to handle a transform in a custom state. leaving us with really sucky options. But after reading the post again, I really like ZzEzZ's  solution. because it gives the users an interpretive transition between the custom state and the transform.

Whenever the transformed character goes into a custom state you can flash the screen and add small FX to your character (energy leaving them, etc.) under a helper or state -2, so that it looks like they were forced to detransform by losing power. Then when they come back into their own states (transformed animations, etc.) have the special FX reverse, so it looks like they gained power back and retransformed. That's the best solution I could come up with for the transformation flaw.

wat.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#34  November 22, 2014, 01:23:49 pm
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whereas transforms had to be augmented due to a fundamental flaw in Mugen's design.

It's not a fundamental flaw in Mugen's design. It's a fundamental flaw in everyone in trying to make Mugen a universal system compatible with everybody's creations.

If you are making your own full game, there are no problems at all with custom states. So, please stop saying that the inability to make character transformations are a mugen's inherent flaw
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Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#35  November 26, 2014, 12:50:21 pm
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Quote
No, no, NO. Do not do this.
I don't see a problem with that.

Quote
It's not a fundamental flaw in Mugen's design. It's a fundamental flaw in everyone in trying to make Mugen a universal system compatible with everybody's creations.

If you are making your own full game, there are no problems at all with custom states. So, please stop saying that the inability to make character transformations are a mugen's inherent flaw

You got a point here. But maybe this could be done on the future (but I really doubt it).
One solution is like OpenBOR does: you simply state in the character header the name of the other characters your character can transform into. Its a full transformation, IOW all the sprites, codes, animations, sounds are taken from the new char.

And there are some other cool options, like:
- Choose if you take all the animations (in Mugen terms, States) from the new character or mix with the old ones
- Choose how the character will revert back to the normal state (after a knockdown? after consecutive hits? never? time?)
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#36  November 26, 2014, 02:38:29 pm
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Somewhat related question that's bothered me for a while: Is there any simple way to make multiple characters take up a single character slot, without in-game transforms? I know many characters have different modes selected by palettes, but that's not really the same thing. Is there any way to change this to selecting completely different characters by pressing a different button on the same space on the select screen?
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#37  November 26, 2014, 05:29:46 pm
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you can have the character use different sprites based on the button pressed on the select screen. But it's not different than having a character transform in the middle of the fight. Whenever your character is placed into a custom state, it will revert to the base required sprites, in other words displaying a different character than the one you selected.

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Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#38  November 26, 2014, 05:37:01 pm
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It's not a fundamental flaw in Mugen's design. It's a fundamental flaw in everyone in trying to make Mugen a universal system compatible with everybody's creations.
no, I agree with the guy, dunno if it wsa ikemen, xnamugen or infinitycat, but one of those had/got suggested a spriteno/groupno trigger  as well as a changeSprite sctrl to fix that.
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#39  November 27, 2014, 07:48:56 am
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I know i suggested that for mugen. And it probably was suggested for all of those. But the problem is none of those are hugely popular. It's a shame xnamugen wasn't continued with. Easily the best one for compatibility and progress.

And the source is out there if people wanted it.


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Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#40  November 27, 2014, 09:55:44 pm
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you can have the character use different sprites based on the button pressed on the select screen. But it's not different than having a character transform in the middle of the fight. Whenever your character is placed into a custom state, it will revert to the base required sprites, in other words displaying a different character than the one you selected.

XGargoyle I think that Snakebyte means a feature that some hacked moleboxed mugen games like KoF Wing are using, where you can have different Charackters on the same slot on the select screen.

For example if you select Kyo and Press A it will normaly load "Kyo.def" but if you Press B it would load the "Iori.def" instead, but afaik that is not possible with normal Mugen versions right now, and there is at the moment no way to find out what they changed to make it possible, since the guys who where able to do it are always moleboxing there games.^^
Re: In-game Transformations into Other Characters
#41  November 28, 2014, 06:58:35 am
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They either used a front end to emulate the mugen select screen (see borghis "the black heart") or they did exactly what Xgargoyle said and worked round the custom states issue cos it's a full game.


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