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Flandre Scarlet (Read 1994 times)

Started by PlasmoidThunder, May 15, 2019, 02:44:35 am
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Flandre Scarlet
#1  May 15, 2019, 02:44:35 am
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Whoa hey, so I decided to edit RicePigeon's Flandre.



Spoiler: Video preview (click to see content)

The idea to rework her moveset dates back to early February, but it took a while to plan everything out and subsequently edit it all in, plus a month or so of beta testing and such; also remember to factor in my innate ability to procrastinate like nobody's business.

I'll be brutally honest, while at first I was OK with Flan's moveset, I gradually grew to dislike it over time because to me it just feels like an amalgamation of two completely different characters whose movesets don't really work well together at all, much less on a character who was stated to have unrelenting rushdown and close-range pressure. In short, I found her boring and incredibly linear; that is of course my opinion, so don't take that as fact.

That's enough of me being unnecessarily mean, so here's the changelog:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

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Oh, I want a diagram. I fucking love diagrams.
Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 01:10:54 pm by PlasmoidThunder
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#2  May 15, 2019, 04:49:32 am
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Quick bugfix to sort out an annoying debug error. Please redownload.
3DS FC: 0516 - 7483 - 3564
Oh, I want a diagram. I fucking love diagrams.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#3  May 15, 2019, 05:26:34 am
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Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 05:30:29 am by Mr. Giang
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#4  May 15, 2019, 09:48:33 am
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Personally, I still think you should have made a video to go along with this release. People might not be willing to download this Flandre without seeing what she can do that Rice's can't. (Plus, it feels more professional to have a video showcasing the moveset.)
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#5  May 18, 2019, 12:45:27 am
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Flandre updated. Playtesting against _Data_Drain_ showed off some unintentional stuff that's now been fixed.

Quote
- Comet Bow: Effect now disappears if Flandre is hit before leaving the ground.
- Straight Flush: Effect now disappears if Flandre is hit before leaving the ground.
- Secret Barrage "And Then Will There Be None?": Fixed power gains with finisher version.
- Secret Barrage "And Then Will There Be None?": Fixed issue where Flandre would enter the finisher animation despite the opponent surviving the attack.
3DS FC: 0516 - 7483 - 3564
Oh, I want a diagram. I fucking love diagrams.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#6  June 08, 2019, 07:07:29 pm
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Time for another update. Some of these changes were actually implemented a small while ago for testing purposes, but I forgot to make mention of them.

Quote
- Comet Bow: Blockstun decreased by 2f.
- Comet Bow [X ver]: Startup increased by 2f.
- Comet Bow [Y ver]: Hitvels reduced.
- Comet Bow [Y ver]: Recovery increased by 4f.
- Comet Bow [Y ver]: Damage increased (70->90).
- Straight Flush: Fixed inability to counterhit.
- Destruction Arrow: Blockstun decreased by 2f.
- Destruction Arrow: Recovery on hit/whiff increased by 5f, hitvels adjusted to compensate.
- Destruction Arrow: Recovery on block increased by 2f.
- Royal Flush: Y hitvels increased on penultimate hit.
- Forbidden Barrage "Starbow Break": Fixed issues when hitting Helpers and characters when armoured.
- Taboo "Weapon of Mass Destruction": Fixed visual issues during superpause.
3DS FC: 0516 - 7483 - 3564
Oh, I want a diagram. I fucking love diagrams.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#7  June 09, 2019, 12:22:24 pm
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Fixing one issue has a habit of breaking something else.

Quote
- Smacked head against wall. <--- This one's important
- Forbidden Barrage "Starbow Break": Fixed behaviour when the move is guarded that I broke when fixing the other issue.

Please redownload, sorry.
3DS FC: 0516 - 7483 - 3564
Oh, I want a diagram. I fucking love diagrams.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#8  July 09, 2019, 03:11:59 pm
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There were reports that Flan caused VSelect to crash when loaded, but the version I had on my hard drive didn't do such; the only difference between it and the previous public version was the addition of a dust effect to Royal Flush, though I was originally waiting for something more important or substantial to roll around before releasing the update.

So in essence, I fixed an issue I didn't know existed without intentionally doing so.

Quote
- Fixed issue that caused VSelect to crash upon loading Flandre.
- Royal Flush: Added dust effect.
3DS FC: 0516 - 7483 - 3564
Oh, I want a diagram. I fucking love diagrams.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#9  July 09, 2019, 05:58:55 pm
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So what do you have in plan for further updates? An actual projectile that's not that Psycho Stream clone?
Sigh.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#10  July 09, 2019, 06:36:37 pm
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Lol I'm not giving Flan any projectiles or any new moves. I was more referring to bugfixes, since bugs have a tendency to show up right after updating; I just figured updating the character solely for an added effect wasn't worth it.
3DS FC: 0516 - 7483 - 3564
Oh, I want a diagram. I fucking love diagrams.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#11  July 09, 2019, 07:33:28 pm
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Well, uh, I can do it myself. I'll take some junk from his Flandre's to create my own abomination. I also still believe that RicePigeon should look at this.
Sigh.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#12  July 09, 2019, 11:17:07 pm
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Abomination might be correct considering I feel she's already really good without a reliable projectile and old Flan's Counter Clock was all kinds of stupid, lol :P

Rice knows this exists.
3DS FC: 0516 - 7483 - 3564
Oh, I want a diagram. I fucking love diagrams.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#13  July 10, 2019, 01:01:49 am
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Well, Destruction Arrow and new Starbow Break, as well as the new Lavatien, are definately more or less like old Flandre, and also Straight Flush being more or less like the Z version of Shockwave without the grab part. Oh, and that its far less complicated and weird with her specials (Starbow Break as a Special? Not right).

You even have any plans to edit some of his other characters (or even make a RP-styled character)?
Sigh.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#14  July 10, 2019, 01:45:59 am
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Nope. The only reason I edited her is because I main Flan and gradually became dissatisfied with her moveset not meshing particularly well, which subsequently made her a bit boring to play as compared to other GR characters like Reimu or Mima. The only other character I feel could do with a rework is Chen (who coincidentally is also an amalgamation), but I wouldn't know where to start.

I have ideas for a couple of GR-styled characters, but the sprites simply don't exist or aren't what I'd consider usable. I'm not going to go into it since this isn't the place for that and I don't want people stealing my ideas.
3DS FC: 0516 - 7483 - 3564
Oh, I want a diagram. I fucking love diagrams.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#15  July 10, 2019, 02:15:19 am
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Alright, tell me what your ideas are or at least how you knew to make such a high-quality edit. Almost feels like 2 different characters.
Sigh.
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#16  July 10, 2019, 02:16:29 am
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Re: Flandre Scarlet
New #17  July 10, 2019, 04:28:55 am
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This.

But to answer your more on-topic question, I planned out Flan's revamped moveset by breaking apart what made base Flan good and what didn't. First and foremost, my goal was not to completely redesign Flan, but to take her intended concept (unrelenting rushdown glass cannon) and flesh it out so that she felt more fun to play as without completely alienating those who were used to the original, hence why she can still do the same combos.

It was obvious Catadioptric had to go since I felt it was a detriment to Flan's otherwise rushdown-oriented attributes due to it providing literally no functional purpose in the corner (jumping into the corner meant none of the followups could actually connect with the opponent, and jumping to the wall all the way behind you gave the opponent the breathing room they needed to escape) and basically becoming useless once the opponent figured out how to deal with it; out of its followups, there was only two that really saw practical use: Straight Flush and Cranberry Trap, so after mulling over ways to somehow retain them (including a brief period where Flan had M. Bison's Death Flutter, which I'd named Calamity Flight), I figured I'd make Straight Flush its own Special and give Flan an air grab.

Starbow X was frequently a point of contention in the THGR server, hence why it kept seeing nerfs like velocity decreases and increased recovery frames on block, but in reality the move was very much a one-and-done deal that served the sole purpose of bypassing projectiles and didn't realistically help with her approach unless the opponent had their back against the wall, nor could it be used in combos whatsoever, so I made it a Hyper, whereas Starbow Y was all kinds of useless outside of the brief period where Flan turned to face the opponent if they were in the corner. Since Calamity Flight and its three versions didn't work out, I essentially tasked myself with coming up with a move that allowed Flan to get around projectiles while serving more of a purpose than Starbow X without being as polarising, and the end result was Comet Bow (and even that ended up causing minor issue, hah); it gets around projectiles just like Starbow X, (somewhat) aids in approach since both versions go fixed distances, and can be comboed out of (moreso X than Y, but at least you can cancel it into a Hyper unlike Starbow).

Since Straight Flush launches upwards and clearly sets up for an air combo, it was mighty disappointing that Flan had no real air combos outside of an air chain, which (due to j.5Z's downward knockback) she couldn't do anything out of, so I changed her j.5Z into j.2Z and gave her a new j.5Z she could combo with that also halts her momentum before recoiling her back slightly, which can be used to bait moves or control her approach (since she tends to zip around everywhere); before even adding Destruction Arrow, she could now do Straight Flush -> j.5X -> j.5Y -> j.5Z -> 5Z -> Destroyer Claw in the corner.

Destruction Arrow was planned from the start as I wanted to improve her air combo game and give her a move she could use in the air to approach with. Didn't have to think too hard about this one, but I didn't want to make the move so good that getting in became trivial, as I wanted to retain that aspect of the original character.

Destroyer Claw and Royal Flush were kept almost completely the same as they already worked perfectly well, though the change to Royal Flush's motion was to make it more reliable to activate.

As for the Hypers, Four of a Kind was scrapped since Starbow effectively replaced it, though it's interesting to note that the excessive amount of hits FoaK did resulted in fantastic combo damage even when fully scaled, but it's likely this is why Flan's Specials all scaled pretty hard in comparison to other characters', which resulted in Laevatein being utterly worthless in combos. Because Starbow also kinda served the same purpose as Laevatein (as in, projectile inv and a midscreen combo ender), I reworked it into a stationary reversal with startup inv similar to that of Reimu's Omnidirectional Demon Binding Circle and pretty good range, but is incredibly punishable in contrast to the original Laevatein.

I originally had no intention of changing WMD since I figured it was fine as-is, but that was before I noticed how high its raw damage was, so that was significantly dropped to compensate for ATWTBN's retooling; on that note, I had considered keeping ATWTBN intact as well and making it an always-available Last Word, instead either re-introducing Four of a Kind as the other selectable Last Word or creating an entirely new one based on old Flan's Q.E.D., but people had suggested to Rice in the past to make ATWTBN a normal Last Word with a finisher animation on KO, owing to its polarising nature of either being impractical or way too good a punish (not helped by a combo involving Straight Flush that allowed Flan to bypass the Life restriction and true combo into it) so that influenced the decision somewhat.

tl;dr:
Figure out why the character isn't good, take it apart, and determine what should be kept, what needs changing, and what the character should have.
3DS FC: 0516 - 7483 - 3564
Oh, I want a diagram. I fucking love diagrams.
Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 11:38:05 am by PlasmoidThunder
Re: Flandre Scarlet
#18  July 10, 2019, 05:21:58 am
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  • 仮面ライダーグランドジオウ
  • The Scavenging Time and Space God
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This.

But to answer your more on-topic question, I planned out Flan's revamped moveset by breaking apart what made base Flan good and what didn't. First and foremost, my goal was not to completely redesign Flan, but to take her intended concept (unrelenting rushdown glass cannon) and flesh it out so that she felt more fun to play as without completely alienating those who were used to the original, hence why she can still do the same combos.

It was obvious Catadioptric had to go since I felt it was a detriment to Flan's otherwise rushdown-oriented attributes due to it providing literally no functional purpose in the corner (jumping into the corner meant none of the followups could actually connect with the opponent, and jumping to the wall all the way behind you gave the opponent the breathing room they needed to escape) and basically becoming useless once the opponent figured out how to deal with it; out of its followups, there was only two that really saw practical use: Straight Flush and Cranberry Trap, so after mulling over ways to somehow retain them (including a brief period where Flan had M. Bison's Death Flutter, which I'd named Calamity Flight), I figured I'd make Straight Flush its own Special and give Flan an air grab.

Starbow X was frequently a point of contention in the THGR server, hence why it kept seeing nerfs like velocity decreases and increased recovery frames on block, but in reality the move was very much a one-and-done deal that served the sole purpose of bypassing projectiles and didn't realistically help with her approach unless the opponent had their back against the wall, nor could it be used in combos whatsoever, so I made it a Hyper, whereas Starbow Y was all kinds of useless outside of the brief period where Flan turned to face the opponent if they were in the corner. Since Calamity Flight and its three versions didn't work out, I essentially tasked myself with coming up with a move that allowed Flan to get around projectiles while serving more of a purpose than Starbow X without being as polarising, and the end result was Comet Bow (and even that ended up causing minor issue, hah); it gets around projectiles just like Starbow X, (somewhat) aids in approach since both versions go fixed distances, and can be comboed out of (moreso X than Y, but at least you can cancel it into a Hyper unlike Starbow).

Since Straight Flush launches upwards and clearly sets up for an air combo, it was mighty disappointing that Flan had no real air combos outside of an air chain, which (due to j.5Z's downward knockback) she couldn't do anything out of, so I changed her j.5Z into j.2Z and gave her a new j.5Z she could combo with that also halts her momentum before recoiling her back slightly, which can be used to bait moves or control her approach (since she tends to zip around everywhere); before even adding Destruction Arrow, she could now do Straight Flush -> j.5X -> j.5Y -> j.5Z -> 5Z -> Destroyer Claw in the corner.

Destruction Arrow was planned from the start as I wanted to improve her air combo game and give her a move she could use in the air to approach with. Didn't have to think too hard about this one, but I didn't want to make the move so good that getting in became trivial, as I wanted to retain that aspect of the original character.

Destroyer Claw and Royal Flush were kept almost completely the same as they already worked perfectly well, though the change to Royal Flush's motion was to make it more reliable to activate.

As for the Hypers, Four of a Kind was scrapped since Starbow effectively replaced it, though it's interesting to note that the excessive amount of hits FoaK did resulted in fantastic combo damage even when fully scaled, but it's likely this is why Flan's Specials all scaled pretty hard in comparison to other characters', which resulted in Laevatein being utterly worthless in combos. Because Starbow also kinda served the same purpose as Laevatein (as in, projectile inv and a midscreen combo ender), I reworked it into a stationary reversal with startup inv similar to that of Reimu's Omnidirectional Demon Binding Circle and pretty good range, but is incredibly punishable in contrast to the original Laevatein.

I originally had no intention of changing WMD since I figured it was fine as-in, but that was before I noticed how high its raw damage was, so that was significantly dropped to compensate for ATWTBN's retooling; on that note, I had considered keeping ATWTBN as-in and making it an always-available Last Word, instead either re-introducing Four of a Kind as the other selectable Last Word or creating an entirely new one based on old Flan's Q.E.D., but people had suggested to Rice in the past to make ATWTBN a normal Last Word with a finisher animation on KO, owing to its polarising nature of either being impractical or way too good a punish (not helped by a combo involving Straight Flush that allowed Flan to bypass the Life restriction and true combo into it) so that influenced the decision somewhat.

tl;dr:
Figure out why the character isn't good, take it apart, and determine what should be kept, what needs changing, and what the character should have.

Ah, nice to explain the process. And that explains why there was sprites for both a spellcard and text for Q.E.D.
Sigh.