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Fighter Factory Development Thread (Read 74501 times)

Started by VirtuallTek, September 04, 2010, 04:06:44 am
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VirtuallTek

Fighter Factory Development Thread
#1  September 04, 2010, 04:06:44 am
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Hello Mugen Fighters Guild.

I am developing Fighter Factory 3 and came to a halt. So I decided to make some questions to be discussed in order to reach a solution.
The FF lost its identity in the version 2 (Ultimate). So, to meet its goal, which is assist the charmaker in your creation easily and efficient (as in FFC), the version 3 is being designed to meet the needs of the charmakers to easily (as in FFC). Then, only with the cooperation of those who actually use the program, we can arrive at a consensus.

The problems are as follows:

1) With the arrival of Mugen 1.0, is essential that there is a visual editor. However, with the v2 SFF, the palettes are within the SFF, separated from the images (ie, the sprites aren't PCX images with palette but the image data (pixels) are encoded in a certain format, and the palette used by sprite is defined through the index of the palette in the SFF). This creates a number of possibilities for charmaker, especially the elimination of the relationship between the "palettization"/sprite order and greater freedom to manipulate palletes. But for an editor to support WinMugen and Mugen 1.0 simultaneously is a difficult decision to choose how to do it.
For example, the palettization in WinMugen is totally dependent on the order of sprites. If the editor is like the Mugen 1.0 (order independent), to save for winmugen, we have a problem. If the editor following the "rules" of WinMugen, you lose the "independence" of the 1.0.

2) Another issue, also related to earlier, is whether or not to support WinMugen. Removing support for WinMugen automatically exclude projects to Win in progress, mainly full game, as a possible port to 1.0 can be time consuming and impractical in some cases (though the FFC and FFU are still available for this purpose).

3) Due to the large impact of FF UP3 (FFC), users expect that the next versions be like her. Except that, with the Mugen 1.0, due to changes in SFF v2, it is IMPOSSIBLE to maintain the same standard.
The interface of the FFC and FFU do not fit to the new model, because the palettes are within the SFF, separated from the images and have a group and number for identification. So now requires a special treatment to the palettes.
A possibility is a separate editor (as in FFU) containing all the palettes of the SFF (in which case I can adapt the interface to accommodate the central idea of the FFC palettes editor).

Another possibility is an extra panel on the right side (as in the FFC). But would need an extra window for editing because it not accommodates space for many functions (as in FFC), which I think impractical.

4) About the interface, more questions are necessary:

4.1) DEF editor in text mode or as in FFU? I personally prefer as the FFU because it prevents syntax errors and allows for greater clarity on what should be filled.

4.2) Many people prefer a text-editor in AIR. How would it be better, a separate window (FFC) or a panel (FFU)? In the case of the panel had made a change in FF3 alpha where the location was changed from the bottom to the right, providing more space for the manipulation of the sprite.

4.3) Fusion of the editors CMD and CNS? Both deal with Code with the same language, could be used the traditional system of tabs (FFC), dealing with commands, constants and states in the same editor and eliminating the FF Notepad.

4.4) Function buttons on the right panel (FFC) or at the top (FFU)? The reason for the FFU have the buttons at the top is simple: standardize (all editors with the same visual pattern and accessibility) and gain extra space in the panels for new options.

5) Another suggestion? :D

Acknowledgments
Thanks to the creators who are always willing to help when a new tool is developed (obviously, without any order :D): {_Carnificina_}, O Ilusionista, Vans, Legendary XM90, Jesuszilla, Tony 3rd, Beatrice, Fervicante, Cybaster, Cyanide, Doom, Maximilianjenus, Pots, Angel, Kain the Supreme, Binho, Messatsu.

And, yes Moderator, this is a project  :P. Some progress:


hierarchical list of States


Unicode support

http://www.virtualltek.com/SoftRender.wmv
High Speed Renderer

Recently, I migrated to another framework and programming language. I already have prototypes running on Windows and Linux, but this is surprise  :twisted:.

More progress and news on twitter: @VirtuallTek  :sugoi:

[]s

Jesuszilla

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#2  September 04, 2010, 04:13:00 am
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YES YES YES! I was just talking hours ago how I wished Fighter Factory could display SFFv2! This is awesome!


Glad to see it can render Japanese now as well!
Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 04:16:14 am by Jesuszilla

VirtuallTek

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#3  September 04, 2010, 04:26:37 am
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Jesuszilla said, September 04, 2010, 04:13:00 am
YES YES YES! I was just talking hours ago how I wished Fighter Factory could display SFFv2! This is awesome!

Glad to see it can render Japanese now as well!
Yes. it displays and save SFF v2 in all supported encodings, including the RGBA added in the version 1.1 (thanks to Cyanide).
With unicode, all ideographic characters  are displayed correctly. :sugoi:

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DNZRX768

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#4  September 04, 2010, 04:37:47 am
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VirtuallTek said, September 04, 2010, 04:26:37 am
Jesuszilla said, September 04, 2010, 04:13:00 am
YES YES YES! I was just talking hours ago how I wished Fighter Factory could display SFFv2! This is awesome!

Glad to see it can render Japanese now as well!
Yes. it displays and save SFF v2 in all supported encodings, including the RGBA added in the version 1.1 (thanks to Cyanide).
With unicode, all ideographic characters  are displayed correctly. :sugoi:

[]s

With Japanese support, editing characters would be much easier!

About support for WinMUGEN, it is up to you.

Me? I might be making the jump anyway as soon as I can get all of the character's files fixed.

But will there be a tool to help speed up the conversion of characters from WinMUGEN to MUGEN 1.0?

And one more thing: can you also fix up the palette editor? It is NOT user friendly in FFU and that bums me out that I have to have 2 versions of FF.
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Cyanide

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#5  September 04, 2010, 05:23:25 am
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Text .def file please.

I dislike everything about FFU's interface, please revert to classic again with bug fixes. The only thing i'd ask for is an "edit in text" button rather than a menu option. I have changed my mind about previous ideas because it didn't work at all well in FFU. Button that brings up a mini notepad window BUT you can still cycle in the BG and look at stuff rather than being locked on the open window.

As to "supporting" winmugen. No, don't bother. Both classic and FFU support winmugen. Giving yourself headaches to make it work in this alongside sffv2 is silly.

If anything, release 2 versions, don't try and have 1 version do everything.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Henry Hero

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#6  September 04, 2010, 05:55:25 am
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Cyanide said, September 04, 2010, 05:23:25 am
Text .def file please.

As to "supporting" winmugen. No, don't bother. Both classic and FFU support winmugen. Giving yourself headaches to make it work in this alongside sffv2 is silly.

If anything, release 2 versions, don't try and have 1 version do everything.

yeah, that's pretty much what I had to say

Jesuszilla

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#7  September 04, 2010, 06:01:21 am
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O Ilusionista

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#8  September 04, 2010, 06:19:05 am
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Quote
As to "supporting" winmugen. No, don't bother.

As we spoke many times on msn, DO NOT REMOVE WINMUGEN SUPPORT. Its a shot on your own foot, like we say here.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Some people here are too "OMFG MUGEN 1.0 RULEZ, EVERYTHING IS TRASH", so don't get yourself fooled. Many - the most part - haven't switched to 1.0 yet. Last time, you can remember how it ended...

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Quote
A possibility is a separate editor (as in FFU) containing all the palettes of the SFF (in which case I can adapt the interface to accommodate the central idea of the FFC palettes editor).

Yes

Quote
4.1) DEF editor in text mode or as in FFU? I personally prefer as the FFU because it prevents syntax errors and allows for greater clarity on what should be filled.

Me too, but I think we can skip this, since if the creator can't make a .def file....he won't make  a char. at all.

Quote
4.2) Many people prefer a text-editor in AIR. How would it be better, a separate window (FFC) or a panel (FFU)? In the case of the panel had made a change in FF3 alpha where the location was changed from the bottom to the right, providing more space for the manipulation of the sprite.

Like FFC. This was the worst change from FFU (and I was against it...). I really would like to shot in the head who gave that idea.

Quote
4.3) Fusion of the editors CMD and CNS? Both deal with Code with the same language, could be used the traditional system of tabs (FFC), dealing with commands, constants and states in the same editor and eliminating the FF Notepad.

No, leave they as they are :)

Quote
4.4) Function buttons on the right panel (FFC) or at the top (FFU)? The reason for the FFU have the buttons at the top is simple: standardize (all editors with the same visual pattern and accessibility) and gain extra space in the panels for new options.

Top.

Quote
5) Another suggestion?

KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid :) Its a programming joke but it works like a charm.

Quote
If anything, release 2 versions, don't try and have 1 version do everything.

It could be cool, but just it is easy.



Cybaster

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#9  September 04, 2010, 11:08:49 am
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Yay, this really is great news. :D

Nice to see a nice editor with unicode and all.
Also, if you want to add more to the editor, you may want to take a look at this and talk to Kyran :
http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=113681.0
It highlights syntax mistakes, it has templates, tabs, etc.

2) Please remove Winmugen support. To me, FFC and FFU bring everything a Winmugen creator could ask for. What is important now is being compatible with the new features, ie SFFv2. Making compatibility with both would be a hustle and would bring more bugs than anything.
If people want to develop something for old Winmugen, they'll use FFU or FFC as they have always done.
However, something interesting would be to get a converter tool in FF3. I mean : FF3 would be able to open old Winmugen stuff, and would then convert the SFF automatically to SFFv2 when you save (asking questions about the palettes to use and all the necessary stuff). Dunno if this is really possible or not, but if it is, this would be great, and would allow easy transition to those who want to convert to Mugen 1.0 and were creating with the old SFFv1.

interloko

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#10  September 04, 2010, 12:33:51 pm
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i'm with Cybaster
FFC and FFU for winmugen it's ok. and new FF for 1.x
and if you want to make a transition to 1.0 you can put a button or a specific area to do that. after this you can open your 1.x compatible char and start to work.

Average Mugen Guild Poster

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#11  September 04, 2010, 12:41:28 pm
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I don't see how just updating FFC, for winmugen support, then making FF3 1.0 only so that everyone can be happy.

fucking bad poster asshole that home32 bitch

Rajaa Retired

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#12  September 04, 2010, 12:49:36 pm
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I'm with Cyanide on the old interface. Still needs to be able to have multiple characters open at once, though. I also hope that the blue axis that appears when viewing the air file is there. That axis makes it easier to align hitsparks and throws and I find it very useful. So please include that!

It's great to know it's going to have support for sffv2.

Good luck.

-SyLar-

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#13  September 04, 2010, 02:28:56 pm
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i say do as cyanide said with regards to support for winmugen. its already well supported in other FF versions.

Rajaa Retired

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#14  September 04, 2010, 02:31:23 pm
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Yeah, scrap Winmugen.

Melchior M. Philips

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#15  September 04, 2010, 03:49:59 pm
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tunglashor

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#16  September 04, 2010, 04:12:24 pm
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It's not quite as simple as "scrap WinMugen" though, because SFFv1 is the main problem here and Mugen 1.0 still supports SFFv1.  So I think it's a case of

1) Somehow include support for both SFFv1 and SFFv2
2) Include support for SFFv2 only
3) Cybaster's suggestion: allow SFFv1 to be opened but convert to SFFv2 before use

I suspect option (2) would be fine (the program could just issue a message along the lines of "please convert sprite file to SFFv2" if an SFFv1 file is encountered).  Option (3) sounds like the ideal solution, since it would mean all Mugen 1.0 characters were supported, but it's probably something that could be added later.

Henry Hero

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#17  September 04, 2010, 05:11:41 pm
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there's no need to make the new FF do everything, that only brings bugs and make it less useful

VirtuallTek

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#18  September 04, 2010, 06:14:56 pm
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Hello,

Briefly, on what was discussed here so far:

FFC interface
Can't go back to the FFC interface because the changes with v2 SFF prevent me from keeping the exact same pattern, especially in relation to the palettes. I can make it similar (initial idea).

Win Mugen Support
About winmugen support at the time FF3 allow you to open and save SFF v1 and v2. But all features are targeted to 1.0, causing some automatic adjustments need to be done to save in SFF v1. And yes, it opens SFF v1 and automatically converts to v2, just save again to get a SFF v2 from a v1, fully functional.
I do not consider two separate versions a possibility, this doubles the development time and bug fixes, although most of the source code can be reused.
But if I restore the source code of the FFC successfully, an update is possible and the removal of winmugen support is likely in this case.

DEF editor
About DEF text mode, I can change if desired. Only warn for what I said before: The current method prevents syntax errors.

AIR text mode and toolbars
About the text editor in a separate window in AIR, I think to set an option to choose between one of two ways. Same for the position of buttons (toolbar). About the toolbar, as I said in the first post, the FFU positioning increases the free space on the left panel (unless everybody to use higher resolution than 1024x768).

Updating FFC
I can't do it because I missed part of the source code in a problem with my hard disk. I'm trying to restore it later.

Quote
Nice to see a nice editor with unicode and all.
Also, if you want to add more to the editor, you may want to take a look at this and talk to Kyran :
http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=113681.0
It highlights syntax mistakes, it has templates, tabs, etc.
Interesting.

Quote
KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid :) Its a programming joke but it works like a charm.
I will try it  :sugoi:

Thanks!
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Average Mugen Guild Poster

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#19  September 04, 2010, 06:17:24 pm
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VirtuallTek said, September 04, 2010, 06:14:56 pm
Updating FFC
I can't do it because I missed part of the source code in a problem with my hard disk. I'm trying to restore it later.
That sucks, but it wasn't really something we needed, I just suggested it.

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O Ilusionista

Re: Fighter Factory Development Thread
#20  September 04, 2010, 07:12:53 pm
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About DEF text mode, I can change if desired. Only warn for what I said before: The current method prevents syntax errors.

There is a way to the user choose the way he wants? Besides....I think the text mode would be better to use.

Again, .DEF files are too easy to people make mistakes.

Quote
But if I restore the source code of the FFC successfully, an update is possible and the removal of winmugen support is likely in this case.

Again, its not a good idea.
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