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LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA. (Read 36397 times)

Started by MAO11, May 27, 2019, 05:02:48 pm
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MAO11

LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
New #1  May 27, 2019, 05:02:48 pm
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americans are pushing a bill to remove lootboxes in games , thoughts about it? is it a form of gambling? or?
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/Loot-Box-Bill-Text.pdf
and it looks like it's only targeting non-mature rated games , does that mean lootboxes are still ok in matured rated games? csgo is M rated if i recall and esrb are a shill organization they could just re-evaluate big company games and put them on mature.... loop hole?


i played some games that featured it pubg,csgo,bf,fgo etc and been in to casinos (and lost) couple of times and i can say that it's very similar.

the argument is that in gacha/loot boxes you don't really lose cause you still get items but those items are worth jack shit and some times a waste of space and inventory like those boat girls mobile game (i don't play 3rd rate trash waifu games) that would give you tons of inferior or even useless characters just to fill up your inventory and make you buy more inventory so you wouldn't experience the pain of deleting your trash waifu boats. it's like those cheap drinks casino give out for their costumers on the floor. it's "free".

i heard belgium have declared loot boxes to be illegal , what did the companies replaced it with? are there any belgians here btw?
Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 09:28:17 pm by Speedpreacher

Byakko

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#2  May 27, 2019, 06:44:00 pm
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地獄の花 said, May 27, 2019, 05:02:48 pm
and esrb are a shill organization they could just re-evaluate big company games and put them on mature.... loop hole?
You're thinking about it the wrong way. Gambling shouldn't be aimed at children, so if there's gambling, then it has to be rated M to be marketed at adults and not children.
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MAO11

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#3  May 27, 2019, 06:59:25 pm
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that actually makes sense, so we gonna see a lot of m rated games in the future then.

so sports game will definitely take a big hit on this. in the bright side it'll make the competition fair especially for other multiplayer genre that can't sell lootboxes like fighting games.

Umezono

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#4  May 27, 2019, 07:31:08 pm
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Loot boxes are poison

Darkflare

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#5  May 27, 2019, 07:45:50 pm
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地獄の花 said, May 27, 2019, 05:02:48 pm
i heard belgium have declared loot boxes to be illegal , what did the companies replaced it with? are there any belgians here btw?
Last I heard, they replaced it with shutting down their belgian servers.

Person Man

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#6  May 27, 2019, 08:12:47 pm
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Umezono said, May 27, 2019, 07:31:08 pm
Loot boxes are poison

Agreed.  Publishers have fallen into this mindset that every game has to have microtransactions and has to have loot boxes and will force developers to include them even if they have no place in the game or nothing worth charging money for.  There are a number of games that are tangibly, objectively worse products than they could have been because the developers were forced to shoehorn in monetization elements.  I hope this bill passes so this shit can start coming to an end.

地獄の花 said, May 27, 2019, 05:02:48 pm
esrb are a shill organization they could just re-evaluate big company games and put them on mature.... loop hole?

The bill is specifically targeting gambling elements in games intended to be played by children.  No publisher is going to make a kids game and then pay more money to have it rated so that kids aren't allowed to buy it and parents won't get it for them.

R565

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#7  May 27, 2019, 08:29:27 pm
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Yeah, I really do hate that companies are relying too much on gatcha games for revenue cause looking at some games that do it nowadays are either just for flavor or really center it around gatcha. I do believe that parents should step in and monitor their kids when getting into games like this, but at the same time companies are just as bad putting in gatcha systems for games that don't need it.

Gennos

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#8  May 27, 2019, 09:25:38 pm
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You know its bad when people start reminiscing about the days of early micro transactions where you simply bought whatever you wanted. Now with this RnG loot box bullshit, you're getting milked for your money like an alcoholic gambling addicted loser, and you're getting nothing useful in return.
https://mugenguild.com/forum/msg.2469816 said:
I'm going to let god handle you people ✞

R565

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#9  May 27, 2019, 09:44:07 pm
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Gennos said, May 27, 2019, 09:25:38 pm
You know its bad when people start reminiscing about the days of early micro transactions where you simply bought whatever you wanted. Now with this RnG loot box bullshit, you're getting milked for your money like an alcoholic gambling addicted loser, and you're getting nothing useful in return.


Perfect summary Gennos, I'd rather buy all the unlockables than just pay for a chance to unlock it.

DNZRX768

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#10  May 27, 2019, 09:57:04 pm
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My question is that while I agree that children shouldn't gamble, what is the bill's stance on things like Pokemon Trading Cards, Magic the Gathering, and other real-life physical gatcha franchises? Because, depending on the definition, one can argue that those are gambling lootboxes too. Even baseball cards can be considered as lootboxes too and no one is complaining about them back before I was born.

Also, how are the children spending money on gatcha? Do they all have their own credit cards or what? Because I think a simpler solution to all of this instead of expensive and risky government intervention is for parents to monitor their kids spending, playing, and smartphone habits. Maybe no access to credit card and restrict the purchasing of physical cash cards for Android and Apple systems. Heck, it maybe could provide an opportunity for a bit of life lesson: if you want something in life, work for it! Make them rake leaves or mow the lawn (when they are older) for the cash to pay for their gatcha spending habits, or possibly teach them the value of saving money.
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R565

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#11  May 27, 2019, 10:05:27 pm
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Thinking about it, this is probably a band-aid on the issue cause it really should look at all aspects of the situation. Speaking like that then you might as well go after everything chance based, and that's going to really piss off a bunch of people cause then you are messing with the economy and the like. Like I said earlier, it's up to the parents to monitor their kids activities on their smartphone.
Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 10:21:50 pm by R565

DNZRX768

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#12  May 27, 2019, 10:33:55 pm
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R565 said, May 27, 2019, 10:05:27 pm
Thinking about it, this is probably a band-aid on the issue cause it really should look at all aspects of the situation. Speaking like that then you might as well go after everything chance based, and that's going to really piss off a bunch of people cause then you are messing with the economy and the like.

Exactly.

I know many gamers, like me, are upset about the spread of lootboxes and gatcha in the video games industry and want to see them gone, but I believe that this is entirely the wrong way to go. Either this bill will be too weak and will be nothing more than a paper tiger in practice or the bill will be too broad and oppressive and will damage the video games industry, if not kill it entirely. I have no confidence that this bill will fulfill whatever purpose gamers wanted to fulfill.

I do think that this whole discussion is nothing more than virtue signalling for the senators involved, showing the public that they are doing something, but not really doing something at all in reality.

EDIT:

Okay, after reviewing this bill. I can say that this bill is garbage. From what I can read, this bill could potentially cover ALL games and not just "minor-targeted games", depending on how would one lawyer out the language used in the bill. And from the way it is written, this could potentially kill off whole sections of relatively benign games like CCGs or games with timed energy-bars, if I am reading the paragraphs correctly.

While some of you would be cheering, I will not. I will not tolerate such a badly designed and implemented law.
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Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 11:04:22 pm by DNZRX768

R565

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#13  May 28, 2019, 12:02:31 am
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I agree, it's a bad bill in the first place because it's a blanket that will shut down anything close to that system. Once again it's the government doing something that parents should have been doing in the first place.

no1wammy

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#14  May 28, 2019, 12:29:22 am
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Is this going to extend to DLCs? Because if yes, then the fighting game community is gonna be hit. Hard. So hard, it'll force publishers to not release any game with planned late additions, like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Dead Or Alive, The King Of Fighters and Super Smash Bros.

Twitter Thread: Nanogenix

Nanogenix said:
A bit of an update on this Anti Loot Box Bill:

The only exclusions currently listed:
- Difficultly Modes
- Cosmetic Items
- Downloadable Expansions

So this could affect more than Loot Boxes:
- Games that sell Characters as DLC
- Any XP Boosts
- Any weapons or perks, etc

Games such as Mortal Kombat 11, Dragonball FighterZ, etc. would potentially have to change how they do DLC or just not at all under this new bill if it isn’t changed. Right now additional fighters not included in the base game could be viewed as an ‘advantage’ and be considered illegal.

R565

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#15  May 28, 2019, 12:41:00 am
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That's a big OOF. What were they thinking when they made this bill!?

DNZRX768

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#16  May 28, 2019, 01:35:12 am
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Maybe they don't think. But since when do politicians think hard about the consequences of the laws they passed?

Honestly, this strengthens my theory that this entire action is just an act to drum up support and votes for the politician. Many people just look at the title of the bill and see protecting kids and thinks that this is a good thing and that the politician is a good person. When looking under the cover, you find all of these loopholes and unclear language and notice that this is a badly-written bill. Only a few people do that, who are vastly outnumbered by the people in the former category.

While I do think that this bill will silently die in committee, do we really want to risk it actually going to the White House's desk? We should spread the word about the bill's flaws and hopefully it will be enough.
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lui

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#17  May 28, 2019, 01:58:02 am
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here's a controversial thought:

this is just another questionable thing in the games industry that gets monetized. there's been way worse stuff in the past and there will be stuff like this in the future. it's not really a sign of gaming going downhill, it's just another fork in the road.

remember when we had to pay for 4 seperate devices plus peripherals just to play zelda four swords adventures with friends? remember how expensive that was?

or when we had to pay for entire sets of peripherals just to do simple stuff like light up a gameboy screen or pay full for different versions of games with one or two extra things thats removed in another version?

over the years there's always gonna be something silly that's overly expensive, it's not really a thing that's exclusive to this gen.

there's gonna be something else in the future that replaces this, and honestly its one of the more tamer things to come out in recent years. even then lootboxes are slowly diseappearing from the limelight, most controversial games that have them in abundant amounts have either modified them to make them obtainable via in-game currency like DBFZ or just straight up remove them altogether.

making them illegal altogether right here and now is pretty bad considering how many games do rely on paid updates to keep going and making even more content.
Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 02:01:19 am by lui

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Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#18  May 28, 2019, 02:09:48 am
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I never get tempted by those plastic egg with random toy inside or random dragonball vending machine back in the days, the idea of paying for something random is mind blowing to me.
in township mobile game there is pick a box kind of game where you spend in game special currency we get from helping others, I don't mind that, but if I ran out that currency I would just start helping others again not spending real money to buy that currency.

Byakko

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#19  May 28, 2019, 02:59:57 am
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no1wammy said, May 28, 2019, 12:29:22 am
Nanogenix said:
So this could affect more than Loot Boxes:
- Games that sell Characters as DLC
- Any weapons or perks, etc
No.
the bill said:
(iii) ADDITIONAL GAME CONTENT.—
18 Such term shall not include an add-on
19 transaction ... that adds new content ... (that) can be purchased only once by
23 a user and the perceived value offered by
24 such transaction ... is not that it—
... (can be obtained without paying)
If you pay once for this new content, and it's not a benefit that you can have without paying (like if you can have it by playing harder or longer) then it's not impacted. Actual content added through DLC released after the game, like DLC characters, story expansions, new weapons dlc packs, new maps and so on, will not be affected.

It does shut down the old style of unlocking stuff by playing but also having the option to pay to immediately unlock it. The current type of fighting game dlc (completely locked out and you have to pay to unlock) is okay.
I think SF5's fight money is toast though, but I haven't touched it in a few seasons (costumes parts and stages might count as cosmetics which is also excluded, but not characters), and I guess Mortal Kombat 11 but I hear everyone was pissed at that one.

I only quickly skimmed through it and stopped at the part that said "here's how we define the words we used" in big letters. Anyone else cares to actually read it ?
(it's funny because this Nanogenix guy listed the types of stuff that was specifically named as things that would not be affected by this bill)

Quote
this is just another questionable thing in the games industry that gets monetized. there's been way worse stuff in the past and there will be stuff like this in the future. it's not really a sign of gaming going downhill, it's just another fork in the road.
The things you're talking about was mostly due to hardware limitations. They physically couldn't make it work otherwise. Now that everything's digital, with total control over what you give for what price, predatory targeting has gone way up and are completely different from the old consoles. This is the evolution of the old lottery toys, which is literally where the term gacha came from. It was fine when it was physical, but when it became immaterial, it turned way too close to virtual gambling. Which shouldn't be targeted at kids, unlike physical toys.

Not sure what you mean about dbfz. Money gets you actual DLC content, in-game currency gets you lottery stuff but you can't get more of that with real money.
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Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 03:30:41 am by Byakko

DNZRX768

Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#20  May 28, 2019, 04:50:53 am
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Final Thoughts for now:

Keep in mind that this bill was just introduced into Senate and a committee still needs to work on it. That means the specifics of the bill as well as the provisions and conditions would most likely change. Not to mention that a committee from the House of Representatives needs to work on it too and that the bill can be killed at anytime if it becomes too infeasible. I do think that this issue is one we all need to keep an eye on...

That being said, my objections and issues with the bill remains as I posted before. If they are not resolved to a satisfactory degree by the time it reaches the President's desk, then I would like for the President to veto the bill.
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