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What is not a "True fighting game" for you? (Read 18890 times)

Started by luis2345, February 05, 2014, 08:34:51 am
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luis2345

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#121  February 08, 2014, 05:44:05 am
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It's pretty common (I have seen it so often i even think it's an stereotype) that the players who are always talking so technical with terms like frame advantage, frame links, mixup, setup,pressure,blockstring
And who also talk or argue about tier lists and matchups are usually pretty mediocre players who do not apply anything of what they are talking about in a real match, instead they imitate strats(even if they don't know what's the point of such strats)  they see from EVO tournaments and most can't play with more than 3 characters, at all.
Some really good and ridiculously advanced players don't even know what exactly these terms mean.
Not just in street fighter but any fighting game.

Tier lists and matchups only have a real influence in really top level play,  two "average joes" do not take their characters to the limit, some tier lists (very few) assume that both players have mastered the characters they talk about
But tiers keep changing quite often, it's useless to even bother caring about them.
Matchups in the other hand, they are pretty accurate since they are based from many many past experiences and data, matchups do matter but only if both sides of the matchup have mastered both characters.
http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?topic=64575
By Matrimelee
Luis2345 Video thread
AI\'s : Cassandra,Fliz,Angel,Kung fu Man,Ai,Yuri,Adon
Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 05:48:13 am by luis2345

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#122  February 08, 2014, 05:17:23 pm
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Aren't tier lists built from matchup info? :/ Excepting the ones that are more like "I can't deal with this character so I'm gonna say is top tier"

Niitris

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#123  February 08, 2014, 06:12:22 pm
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Mostly, but it also takes effectiveness of tools into consideration.

Tier lists are slightly overrated imo. While most all of them are some semblance of correct (because an average character has no chance against the 4 Gods in MvC2), a good number of tier listings don't take very subtle things into consideration (jump height, walk speed, etc...). Some characters are made to overwhelmingly move around more than to just straight up attack you with powerful moves (doesn't work in Street Fighter as much since movement options are minimal compared to other 2D fighters). Also, game mechanics can sometimes help balance the cast.

Another thing it normally neglects is character usage. Not every player knows the ins and outs of every character (which is why some people prefer games with smaller casts). While most low tier characters really aren't as good as the rest of the cast, some are just simply thrown in the middle because they're just not as explored as other characters for varying reasons. This explains why Xian (Gen) was able to beat Tokido (Akuma) at Evo2K13 (which Rednavi mentioned earlier). Gen is a rather unorthodox character who doesn't exactly "stand out"; naturally, most people wouldn't know just how dangerous he can be. When Daigo extensively researched the Ryu-Gen matchup some time later, he proceeded to body Xian in a FT10.

Finally, in a well balanced game (in which the notion of near-perfect balance is also something I don't think a enormously big deal), the gap between the best and the middle isn't that huge anyway.

Jmorphman said, February 07, 2014, 07:00:29 pm
There have been way, way, way worse threads than this one.

It certainly started out like it would be one of those threads. :P

Snakebyte

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#124  February 08, 2014, 09:38:50 pm
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I've always been under the impression that, aside from a couple of obvious bottom-tier characters, Tekken has a very 'narrow' tier list and the gap between most characters isn't all that significant, as opposed to the Marvel games where it's a giant gulf that'll pretty much fuck you over if you choose poorly. On the other hand, I'm a massive Tekken fanboy. How accurate is this?

luis2345

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#125  February 08, 2014, 11:40:45 pm
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Snakebyte said, February 08, 2014, 09:38:50 pm
I've always been under the impression that, aside from a couple of obvious bottom-tier characters, Tekken has a very 'narrow' tier list and the gap between most characters isn't all that significant, as opposed to the Marvel games where it's a giant gulf that'll pretty much fuck you over if you choose poorly. On the other hand, I'm a massive Tekken fanboy. How accurate is this?

Not quite sure, but i remember i have seen boss characters making it to the finals , some dragon thing that could do more than 50% damage with 3 hits, never been into the tekken community at all.

Renzo F said, February 08, 2014, 05:17:23 pm
Aren't tier lists built from matchup info? :/ Excepting the ones that are more like "I can't deal with this character so I'm gonna say is top tier"

Yes, good tier lists are, but some people make tier lists based out of two things: Damage and character usage.
Real and true good tier lists are useful just as a tool to know of what you are dealing with, good tier lists take into consideration the limitations and capabilities of the characters not just damage alone and how "popular" the character is.
For example in king of fighters 2002 , Kim vs Mature.

Kim is considered a high tier character and mature a mid-low tier character i believe.
Kim's moves are mostly safe even if you screw up, mature's moves are almost suicide.
Kim's combos are easier and deal a lot of damage, Mature's are not that easy and they deal way less damage.
Kim can land combos easily and his hit confirms are easier aswell, Mature needs to be really close to the opponent or her combos can whiff and the hit confirm is rather difficult compared to kim's.
If you screw up a combo as kim, you are most of the time completely safe, But if mature screws up any combo, she's really vulnerable.
Kim doesn't need to spend meter bars to deal a lot damage, Mature needs meter to deal decent damage.
Kim is more mobile in general, mature doesn't have much "stuff you have never seen" tactics.
One of kim's supers is safe on block, the others sometimes are, Mature's don't deal that much damage and if your opponent blocks it you are doomed.
Kim's most damaging combos, even the 100% damage ones are basic stuff,  Mature's most damaging combos can't even get past of 60% and most of them are really hard to do (exhibition combo kind of hard) and they are not really worth it.
Even if you are really skilled as mature kim will always be a nightmare (supposing you are fighting a decent kim), i had a friend who was like "hey, i am learning how to beat kim as mature on ggpo lately, its really hard"


That kind of stuff are where matchups and tierlists are coming from.
That's why people like kof 98 a lot , it's the most balanced kof known, kim wasn't like that backthen.

 




http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?topic=64575
By Matrimelee
Luis2345 Video thread
AI\'s : Cassandra,Fliz,Angel,Kung fu Man,Ai,Yuri,Adon
Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 11:45:32 pm by luis2345

Byakko

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#126  February 08, 2014, 11:50:39 pm
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Real and true good tier lists are useful just as a tool to know of what you are dealing with, good tier lists take into consideration the limitations and capabilities of the characters not just damage alone and how "popular" the character is.
The problem is finding tier lists that are actually good. Unless you're part of the community that's building one, usually they don't come with a manual listing justifications for matchups, so it's hard to tell when you come across a random list if it's legit or bogus. And more often than not, they're the latter. It's obvious why tier lists can be regarded as a joke unless you're really part of those pumping actual experience into one.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Renzo F

Re: What is not a "True fighting game" for you?
#127  February 09, 2014, 09:31:12 pm
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I don't really know guys which tier lists are you referring to, the one that came to mind are the ones based on a matchup score, placing the character with the best score on top.

It's not like I read something like "this character has 140 points, bit since it walls really fast, let's place him a little higher".

I don't really think those lists are like a bible but they make sense really often. If I do, I'll be playing Fei or Akuma instead of Makoto or Bison.
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