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Blades & Samurais Project (Read 11611 times)

Started by mr_bourrepalestick, February 15, 2016, 06:43:24 pm
Blades & Samurais Project
#1  February 15, 2016, 06:43:24 pm
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    • France
Hi everyone !

Like many of you, I have this one fighting game in my head, the "game of my dreams".
During the past years, from time to time, I've been dedicating some free time into scratching notes, drawing sketches, making-up data frame comparison tables, drawing game-state graphs, and trying stuff in Mugen's engine (I've been reading you guys for quite a while !! :)  ).
Now that I have a more clear vision on most main aspects of the game I want, and now that I got somewhat used to some Mugen's specific tools, I believe I'll be able to come out with enough material, at least to aim to build up an Alpha version.
I hope some of you like it. And even if you dont, feedback will always be appreciated !

So let me introduce you my "samurais and blades" fighting game project !

In this first post, I'll be mostly describing the main points of the project.
Screenshots and perhaps downloadable content will be dropped soon. Some of it won't be necessarily Mugen content (like Xls tables, yEd graphs etc.), but as I find them useful, they might be worth sharing too.

Weapon based fighting game
This Mugen project will be a weapon based fighting game, inspired from samurai universe, with "some hiphop flavor" in it.
There are many examples how both can meet in a tremendous manner : Afro Samurai, Samurai Champloo, Wu Tang Clan (is absolutely not samurai-like but Shaolin temple ... but you got the idea)...
At the moment, the entire cast is mainly built around Samurai Shodown and The Last Blade series characters (which should explain project's title). There are some potential guests, but my main rule is : the character must use a weapon.
This rule will have major impact on fighting mechanics and (desperate?) efforts to get some (obviously unperfect?) global game balance.
Though, I haven't decided game's title yet ...


A cohesive global design direction
Disclaimer : I believe this section's content to be subjective. I prefer reminding it, because we can disagree on many aspects. And as far as this is a project of mine, there are some points I will hardly change my mind about. Most of them are in this section.

First of all, I'll be trying to keep every element as much cohesive as possible, for both visual and audio. The main direction being Samurai X Hiphop universes / codes. Also, I'll avoid overdoing stuff. I mean I don't believe the "Versus screen" has to have flames, reflections and too much effects to create tension before starting a match...
Same goes for music and sound effects.

Another criteria which I give importance : "readability".

From a typographical point of view, I'll be applying the 3 font limit rule.
I may use different sizes for each element, but I will chose 3 main fonts :
  • one font for title and main menu elements,
  • one font for names & isolated elements,
  • one last font for rich text elements.

From a gameplay experience point of view, I want the game to be readable aswell.
As an example, I find Haohmaru's (from Samurai Shodown) moves easier to "read" than Zappa's one (from Guilty Gear). In other words, I don't want too much fancy stuff on the screen. I don't like when there are too many light flashes, explosions, astrological signs or whatever ... Even if I consider GG/Blazeblue/Persona as great if not the best games from many aspects (global design/game mechanics/roster diversity/ animation/etc. ), there are moments when I don't have a clue with what actually happens on the screen.
So basically, I want my game to be some kind of "sober" (I'm not sure if my translation to the english versionof this word is accurate). BTW, this is one of the main reasons why many characters didn't fit into my roster this far.
Though, there will be some palette effects for a gameplay sake, in order to notify specific situations. For example, an "ice palette effect" during invincible frames in particular moves (actually, I'm stealing it from Rising Thunder  :P ).

I believe I'll be able to come out with something cohesive and "clean" and consistent without it being boring though.

A 28-32 char roster
The final roster should count  around 30 characters. That's the goal I'm heading to.
The current list contains 14 characters from Samurai Shodown series, 14 from The Last Blade series. Those will be integrated for sure. I may add up 4 other characters (from the same series or other "special guests").

14 Samsho characters :
Haohmaru, Yumeji, Ukyo, Genjuro, Jubei, Hanzo, Kyoshiro, Iroha, Basara, Charlotte, Earthquake, Gen An, Tam Tam, Wanfu, Yoshitora

14 Lastbld characters :
Moriya, Hibiki, Kojiroh, Washizuka, Mukuro, Amano, Musashi, Zantetsu, Yuki, Setsuna, Juzo, Kaede (awakened), Shigen, Kagami
Obviously, Shigen is the only one who does not have a weapon, he'll be the only exception ... and he'll fit as the huge handed grappler.

A 6 button gameplay
The gameplay will be based on a 6-button control pannel :
3 weapon attack buttons (Light - Medium - Heavy) , 1 Kick attack button, 1 throw button, 1 Parry/Roll button.

Weapon and Kick attacks "should be self explanatory"  ( :D )
Throws and Parry/Roll commands will be very important, if not becoming the core part of the gameplay.

Throws will be the most quick attack (faster startup than Light and Kick buttons). 2 variations :
Back throw - which will be like the classical knock down throw.
Forward throw - which will be more like Samurai Shodown 3 (or was it samsho 4?) throws : they will act as combo starters (like a Tenshin) which will require some timing skills to successfully follow-up with big damage starter buttons.

Due to weapon used attacks, hitboxes won't necessarily carry hurtboxes inside of them. The parry/roll system fits best this kind of gameplay.
Each will serve it's own purpose :
  • Standing/crouch Parry : counter a hit  -  throw & projectile vulnerable
  • Roll Fwd (F or DF + Parry) : projectile invincible  -  hit & throw vulnerable
  • Roll Back (B or DB + Parry) : hit invincible - throw & projectile vulnerable
  • Backdash (or Hop back) : throw invincible - hit & projectile vulnerable

No Air guard. No Air parry. No Air jumps (only "ninjas" will be able to double jump). No fall recovery.
The Roll command will be also used as a hit-ground-from-fall recovery command (holding a direction will be required though).
(for MUGEN's reasons, the required sprites & animations are there, but useless)

The only gameplay aspect which needs still a decision is about meter building and use. I have some ideas, but I haven't developped them enough to mark it as a core part of the gameplay.
Meter could be built with successful parries and attacks (parry would provide much more meter).
Meter could be burnt with Roll-Cancels , which one could use after a special move to follow his combo (like a FADC in USF4, but only on hit !!).
And of course, meter can be used to do a SuperMove/ Critical Art / HyperMove / Desperation or whatever we can call it ! :)

Ressources and tools used
Here is a list or sources where I got most of the stuff I'm using for the moment.
Characters packs 
http://network.mugenguild.com/guild/start.html
http://BLACKLISTED WEBSITE.com/forums/downloads.php
Sounds
http://soundbible.com/
http://www.sounds-resource.com/
Fonts
http://www.dafont.com/
http://www.azfonts.net/

Other than that, there are some softs I use for this project (and others aswell)
  • LibreOffice Calc. --> free, open source equivalent to Excel soft. As any table calc. soft, always useful
  • yEd Graph Editor --> free, open source graph editor (obvious isn't it). I use it to draw state graphs logic. Helped me a lot to understand the whole 5000 state logic when I first tried to understand how MUGEN works... And also useful to draw up combo possibilities etc.
  • Freeplane --> free, open source mindmapping tool. I use it mainly to reclassify raw info when I gather a lot of it. The best example was when I started messing with the Hitdef controller... Helped me a lot too.
  • TheGimp - Inkscape - Krita --> 3 free, open source drawing/image editors. TheGimp is matrix based. Inkscape is vertex based. Krita can do both !!
  • Audacity --> free, open source sound editor
And of course, there are VirtualTek's FighterFactory and FontFactory !

Progression and current state

First, I started with Yumeji (from Samurai Shodown) and got used to main Mugen and FighterFactory functionnalities and basic stuff. But at some point, I had to start it over again to make sure to build a stable "basis", which would fit better to my vision of the gameplay experience, and not the contrary. Otherwise, I'd have to constantly correct the basis and everything that would be based on it ...  endless.

Currently, I'm building game's "basis" character, Haohmaru.
I have done all the required sprites-anim-states work and slightly adjusted them as I want them to display. There will be some rework on some .CNS data.xxx values in near future too.
All 4 normal attacks are defined and work properly for their basic properties. I'm leaving throws, parry and rolls for the very next step.
Current work concerns 2 issues : the combo counter display and the frame adv. adjustments.

Combo Counter -> Damage % counter
I absolutely don't find hit counter to be interesting in a fighting game. It doesn't make ME feel powerful to land a 35920 hit combo, when the damage output is 350 lifepoints out of 1000 ...  I prefer displaying the damage output my attack has just made to the opponent. The damage amount itself isn't that accurate in my opinion. It's rather how much it did hurt the opponent --> % damage made.
I have came out with a solution.
For each attack Hitdef controller, for the "numhits" value, I've put the following line :
Code:
numhits = Floor(DAMAGE*Fvar(X))
The float variable Fvar(X) is used to calculate the exact damage %.
It is based on enemy's (data.life), adjusted with a combo scaling formula, and takes into account attacker (data.attack)  VS  enemy's (data.defence).
I will post the exact code I used as soon as possible.

Frame Advantage adjustments
After I defined the "standard" normal attacks frame data, taking into account the frame advantages for target combos to connect on hit, being blockstrings (or not), I wanted to take into account each characters CSN's data.attack and data.defence values in frame advantage.
The main idea being :
If a character (X) is meant to have a strong (data.attack), he should be able to maintain more pressure on an enemy with a lower (data.defence).
But at the same time, if that (X) character goes against an enemy with stronger (data.defence), he should lose some blockstring pressure possibilities.
So I implemented another factor in Hitdef's ground.hittime and guard.hittime values which take into account the (data.attack) VS (enemy, data.defence) differential.

I find this last idea interesting, making each matchup different, and making the whole balance topic even more passionating ! Almost every matchup is character specific, so the player will have to adapt his playstyle during the match depending on each enemy. And with some frame gaps/traps, and the Hit/Parry/Throw/Roll/Hopback possibilities, it adds up mindgames and intensity with minimal extra fancy stuff ... which is exactly what I want to develop in this game.
The playstyle adjustment could be a valuable reason to make a win being best 4 out of 7 rounds though ...
What I haven't decided yet, is to cancel (or not) data.attack and data.defence influence on the damage output (because it causes a double advantage/disadvantage on damage scaling and frame advantage), and also how to balance those two parameters with lifepoints and meter jauge. I'll leave the last two at standard values for the start.

Future steps

Once I have all the 6 buttons working EXACTLY as I want them to, on the Haohmaru base character, I'll implement the same work with 7 other characters from the roster. It will mostly be sprite and animation adjustments.
Then, I'll be more focusing on System.def and Fight.def files , working on backgrounds, music, sounds and fonts.
Once I have a decent pre-Alpha version, with 8 char roster, 3 or 4 stages and cohesive menu display , I think we will be ready to head for a full Alpha Version including more stages, more characters and the most important, with special moves implemented.

Sorry for the lenght guys, but now you know it all ! :)
Actually, my RL circles are not into FG, and I need to share this project with other people...so feel free to tell me if there are things you like/dislike/hate... every feedback can be constructive !!

Cheers !!!
- samurais, swords & stuff ? → Another Blade
Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#2  October 20, 2016, 06:41:11 pm
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It's been quite a while I have not posted anything about my project, still it has advanced a lot (for a "1 man work" I think).

Before I share any content and make it public here, I need to ask some questions and clear out some issues from the start.

I didn't make any sprite or sound extracts from "original" games nor emulator versions.
All those ressources come from other people's hard work (I'll list them all below).
What I did was import the sprites and sounds from those existing characters into a kfm standard .def file, and work it all out from there : sprite numbering, palettes, animations & clsn boxes, state definition, controllers, commands etc.
So eventually, the characters are totally different from the original versions (they don't play the same, don't have the same buttons and all).
Same for stage's spirtes (I've reworked the palettes, sprite # and def files so they fit some kind of same "standard" for me, since different authors from the start).
The soundtracks though are original creations from a friend of mine (and I'll check with him if he's OK for me to let them go public).

As far as now, here are the contents that I've used, and their authors :

CHARACTERS (sprites & sounds)
  • Haohmaru (samurai shodown)    -->  Hirohiro
  • Yumeji  (samurai shodown)      -->  Mikenuko
  • Charlotte (samurai shodown)   --> Noe
  • Kagami  (last blade)      --> HAL

STAGES (sprites)
  • Ryo2k5 --> Last Blade (Amano stage, Kaede stage, Kagami stage) , Last Blade 2 (Village stage) 
  • JedahUK --> Samsho5 (Charlotte stage, Rasetsumaru stage)
  • OldGamer --> Smasho5 (Forest Temple stage)
  • Cirio/LeoPort91 --> SVC-Nude place stage

SCREENS (sprites)
  • JedahUK --> Samsho2 (Genjuro stage), Samsho5sp (Amakusa stage)

So I'd need to know how all this is played out, from a credit point of view.
I don't take any credit from the sprites and sound sources. Still I've digged all the work from bottom (and learned A LOT from it !  :) )

But do I need to check the authors out for some kind of authorization or something before sharing it all here ?
If it's the case, can I find them somewhere ? (here or in other MUGEN forums ?)

Thanks in advance ;)
- samurais, swords & stuff ? → Another Blade

ExL

Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#3  October 20, 2016, 07:10:05 pm
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Guess thoughts are really material - always wanted game like that! Even said it somewhere...
I don't think there would be issues with credits, but to be on a safe side it would be better to contact authors asking if they are OK with you using those characters/stages.
Hope all goes well and no issues will occur.
Then I'll be dreaming bigger for you to include weponwielding guests from KOF, Sengoku 3, Rurouni Kenshin: Soul And Sword project, Kabuki Klash: Far East of Eden, Samurai Deeper Kyo... Maybe than that'll happen too ;P (don't burst my bubble just yet when imagination got wild)
Good luck and goodspeed!
"Where greyness prevails, the black always take the power." (c) "Its Hard to be God" - brothers Strugatskie.
Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#4  October 21, 2016, 12:13:23 am
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    • France
So glad this project gets your interest mate !!
For the credit part, I've sent a message to JedahUk (the first i've found on the search engine). I hope he'll be ok...but it seems it's been a while he wasn't around...(and I hope my session didn't timeout while sending the message... :/ )
For the other characters, maaaaan you've hit it right on spot with Kof and Sengoku ! Kongoh and Billy Kane were the first models i've tried to work on in Mugen (starting from the sprite sheets etc.).
I must admit there's a bunch of characters I've been wondering about. Maybe they'll find a spot in the roster. ;)  (keep that bubble alive man... let it grow i'd even say !)
I'll have a look on the other titles you've mentionned, who knows.

To be honest, I've been focusing on Samsho and Lastblade characters, and the first clear goal is to gather 8 characters from those titles, 4 from each, with different gameplay styles (as different as I can make them in this project's standard).
For the moment, only 2 of them have special moves.
Still, for the 4 characters I have now, all the normals and defensive mechanisms seem to work quite well. Maybe some tweaks here and there, but all seems cohesive and is actually really fun to play (against other players, I didn't dig into the AI yet, but I have an eye on var(59) topics and stuff...)
- samurais, swords & stuff ? → Another Blade

ExL

Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#5  October 21, 2016, 08:02:52 am
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  • 1-800-SUICIDE
Yeah, your project is something I wanted to play for a long time and being wondering why there's no compilation at least.
I wanted to ask about Parry/Roll mechanic, how that'll work? I liked LB parry a lot(and in small personal compilation based of stuff from MFFA with LB2 screenpack it really gives LB characters the edge against SamSho characters) and kick mechanic too, but wonder how roll will work there, will it compliment other mechanics? Battles should be quite techy with all those.
And other question was power meter. Personally I think default 3 level meter won't be good to the game, more like 1 level and probably SamSho rage meter at that(to be used once in battle when health is low). And if I understand you right you also leaning toward something like that, but that's speculation :)

As for characters, let's see... Well my favorite ones was Zantetsu, Lee(guess he's out of game being weaponless, fan doesn't count), Setsuna, Yuki and crazy Shikyoh/Mukuro in LB, looks like I'm completely covered there :D Makes me happy! Now SamSho I like 3rd one most, but lot's of characters aren't present there. Favies - Ukyo, Shizumaru, Yunfei, Andrew, Cham-cham, Charlotte, Basara, Hanzo, Mina... Pretty covered there too, though SamSho roster IS bigger and it's hard to include everyone's' favies. Mostly I care about Ukyo so I'd be glad if only him was there, he's my favourite SamSho character as in THE Favourite.
For guests,  I've mentioned Samurai Deeper Kyo, could be KOF Shiki, Billy Kane, Hayate, Whip, Malin, Choi and of course Shion, can be Hikaru from Matrimeele. It can be characters from Inuyasha, maybe. Also Chuchoryu made Jo Musashi and Ryu Hayabusa(from Shinobi and Ninja Gaiden series accordingly), they ARE rough and missing some stuff, but with proper attention... And there's cool Blood Rayne character there too.
Would be crazy if I'd asked to include all of those, but one or two here and there can be good, it's rather possibility field I can think of and gameplay difference must be defining factor.
"Where greyness prevails, the black always take the power." (c) "Its Hard to be God" - brothers Strugatskie.
Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#6  October 21, 2016, 08:34:55 am
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I was just talking about something like this to some friends of mine. Samsho Vs. LB would indeed be legit, if done right. Your concept of weapon though is kinda confusing. I'm assuming you refer to more generally established weapons, registered to be "deadly". In the video game realm though anything can be a deadly weapon, I mean.. Boomerang/Whip. As I read on though this still looks like a big what if. Would love to see some actual content to be interested in this. You'll totally kill it with those guests imo.

ExL

Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#7  October 21, 2016, 09:20:26 am
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  • 1-800-SUICIDE
It'll be okay if guests are fitting with theme and have something unique to give to gameplay. For example Shion would be beast there with his spear and rope darts or Hayate with his boomerang(especially if Cham-cham won't be there), or Whip. As Original games initial rosters are quite big by themselves and SamSho is bigger guests are probably better considered as filling gaps on LB side to not being outnumbered with amount of SamSho ones, something like 6 would be more than enough. It's my opinion which probably won't match with mr_bourrepalestick's, but I'm just stating it as I had that dream case scenario in my head for a ling time :D
I do agree with point that weapon can be anything, from yo-yo to umbrella in fighting game so it's more like armed/barehanded.
"Where greyness prevails, the black always take the power." (c) "Its Hard to be God" - brothers Strugatskie.
Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#8  October 21, 2016, 03:32:05 pm
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    • France
Before getting into the defensive mechanics and meter use (the current version that far), I'd like to mention the changes made to the 6 button controls and the offensive options.
This layout seems to work very fine as far as my testings went

A - Light Slash
B - Heavy Slash
C - Kick
X - Throw (no difference between fwd and back, just turning around the move)
Y - Parry
Z - Roll / Recover (I changed my mind about recovers !)
(start : taunt)

As you can imagine, there are also command normals for each character. There are universal ones (very similar to LastBlade2's gameplay) :
4+A : Jab
6+B : Long Poke (or rather a long heavy button)
3+C : Sweep
A+B : Overhead launcher

Then, each character has at least one unique command normal (6+A medium slash for example, or 6+C a roundhouse kick etc.)

The gameplay is based on target combo chains (very similar to LB2 speed groove), going from light attacks to heavier ones, and also on links. There are also 2 possible "LINKERS" for each character : jabs, and one of the unique command attacks (linkers provide the most meter gain as a reward ).
There are OTGs, juggles (6 maximum), and for now, there is no infinite loop possible (I've worked hard on pushbacks' balance)
To give you an example, here is a chart for Haohmaru (it has changed a bit since, I gotta make an update version, but it's just to illustrate)
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

The same thing with the corresponding framedata sheet in the googledoc link below (it needs to be updated too, but it's just to illustrate it all).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XFDks1gkwvS1rjpiYHgQ4eZ9DkL1IEjy9ZBmn9P3Olw/edit?usp=sharing

All of it in 2 quick combo exhibitions (notice the EXCELLENT soundtracks from my homie Jag24Music ! )
With Charlotte


With Haohmaru (some targets have changed and this loop isn't possible anymore)


METER USE
Hitting opponent builds power meter (or EX meter or whatever we call it)
1 hp damage given --> 1 power point , 1/2 pts on guard
1 hp lost --> 1/2 power point, 1/4 on guard
(1000 HealthPoints standard, 900 Power meter points, 3x300)
 
Some special moves (reversal use, as DPs, SPDs etc) --> will always recquire 1 meter use (300 EX pts)
Long startup special moves (typically projectiles) --> will recquire 1 meter if they are cancelled into from a normal, for free from neutral stance 
A+B (universal overhead launcher) --> 1/2 meter on cancel, for free from neutral stance

This use of the meter , combined with the recoveries, the juggle limit (now at 6 , could be tweaked up eventually) and pushbacks helped a lot in reducing any infinite loop combos that could break the game (even with OTGs etc.).
(note : there is a 0.85 damage reduce on each and every hit in a combo)

----------------------------------------------------------
Now the defensive options (which have quite changed since the start)


PARRY  --> VS Hits
As you can see in the chart & the framedata, there are some blockstring target chains, and there are also some chains with "holes" in them (blockstring wise).
I mention this in order to present the Parry mechanic.

There are 2 different parries :
Y --> regular parry.
3fr startup. /  10 fr. active / 37 fr. recov  --> gives 1/3 meter (100pts) and 30fr. advantage (custom state)
Standing version is vulnerable to Low attacks.
Crouching version is vulnerable to Special attacks and Aerial ones

back - fwd +Y --> Red parry
1fr. startup / 10 fr act / 19 recov --> needs & consumes 2/3 meter, gives 1/3 meter (100pts) and 30fr. advantage (custom state)

JUMPING --> VS throws & grabs
There is no air parry (nor air defense).
Jumping and backdash are only throw escapes.
There is also a throw tech : a reversal clsn against throws during their 4frame startup

ROLLING --> VS projectiles
Z --> Forward roll
back+Z --> Back roll

All have 30 frames duration (movement speed depending on character's cns constants).
6 startup frames --> totally vulnerable
6-12 --> Normal attacks & Projectile invincibility
12- 30 --> Projectile invincibility

RECOVERY  --> VS Juggles

Air recovery (Z while being juggled) needs and consumes 1 meter.
Total invincibility granted until landing, UNLESS another button is hit by the player while in the air (if he wants to counter attack)

Ground recovery (Z when touching ground from falling)
--> totally invincible during 12 first frames . But it has the same movement as backdashes, so beware of the corner !!!

-------------------------------------------------------------
Summing it all up, there are different defensive mechanics as well as offensive ones.
Each one has different risk/reward rates, not only frame wise, but also from a placing point of view. And each defensive option is "more efficient" in specific situations.
Guarding and punishing at the end of enemy's strings is also still an interesting option, but tick throws and corners are dangerous. REALLY DANGEROUS, believe me !


---------------------------------------------------------------
As for the cast, I really appreciate the ideas ! Got'em bookmarked. I can't promise anything now, but I'll try those models out when I'll find some more sparing time !!

For what I can say for sure, is that every character that can fit into the 19th century Japan lore is a serious contender for appearing in the cast. Better if he has some kind of weapon, sword, stick, whip, chain, whatever... I'm not a "samsho only" partisant, it's more that I don't have such a knowledge of each and every fighter game :P
So I've started with samsho and lastblade, since I've been playing those games, and the samurai/ninja/japan universe is what I'm fond of. I do agree that even a guitar could be a weapon too (looking at GG ...)  but it's not my thing you know :D

I admit that I'm not very fond of characters like Akari (Lastblade) or ChamCham neither, but you never know ... like they say here in France "only fools do never change their minds"  ;) 

All in all, now that I've acquired some experience working on characters from imports on "my" standard, I need 2-3 weeks just to have a character working quite well (without special moves).
And I'll have to work on the screen interface too (fight.def especially).
So maybe I'll manage to get it all for 2017 for some kind of 1st season of the full game ... the 2nd season could have more variety cast wise...

(sorry guys for the long post !)
- samurais, swords & stuff ? → Another Blade

ExL

Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#9  October 21, 2016, 07:31:15 pm
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  • 1-800-SUICIDE
It's not my genre(when it comes to those motives I prefer Dynasty Warriors type of OST or Samurai Warriors, though less), but Jag24Music done very well, it's good music.

Don't worry about long post, that's OK and interesting update.

Now I'm glad that parry and roll are separate buttons, I've worried that in the middle of a battle Ramba Ral forgot to fight I'll roll instead of parry quite often. A+B for overhead is kinda classic solution, should work well. Command normals are also good thing.
What worried me in video with Charlotte is being attacked after throw, will I able to survive like that!? :D There is recovery, but it consumes 1 bar, quite pricey escape from becoming stuffed vegetable.
More on the power meter, to be honest, I don't know, limiting usage of specials with it... it's not that big meter for such limitations at that. Maybe that management will grow on me, but for sure I'm not used to that. Won't judge it right now, maybe that'll actually grow on me or it'll be changed in process, who knows.

As for characters, yeah, I admit Cham-cham is not really in samurai/ninja themed, Hayate and Sango are more suiting among boomerang users. No promises is needed about them, just select most interesting ones so the roster will have many different options. Forgot to put NGBC link last time. "Choose wisely!" :)
"Where greyness prevails, the black always take the power." (c) "Its Hard to be God" - brothers Strugatskie.
Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#10  October 22, 2016, 12:31:03 am
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Shortly, concerning Charlotte footage.
As you see the second knee attacks whiffs and resets the combo, but it sets up a close range gamble.
The throw is escapable, and you can ground recover after it anyway (for free !! No meter use for ground recovery), so the last part of the combo isn't "legit" stuff and is all escapable.
Still, in the corner, if the throwing Charlotte doesn't go for the light kick juggle (OTG), she could catch up the ground recover vulnerable frames (airborne).

It would be really easier to discuss all this stuff if I got it shared so you could test it out :(

And thanks mate for that last link too !
I'm gonna  have rough time doing cast choice !! :D
- samurais, swords & stuff ? → Another Blade

ExL

Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#11  October 22, 2016, 09:12:22 am
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Ah, I see, free ground recovery, yeah, that'll help in avoiding mashed potato's fate, that's reassuring :)
"Where greyness prevails, the black always take the power." (c) "Its Hard to be God" - brothers Strugatskie.
Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#12  November 07, 2016, 05:50:56 pm
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@ExL : sorry, I couldn't find a way to send you a PM, so I'll just post here.
I'll definitely try out some Samurai Deeper Kyo characters. I can't promise anything about the cast though, it's a bit too early.
Thanks for the links. Got some character packs downloaded, I'll try'em out later ;)

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The work is still going on here.
I'll wait for your feedbacks first before even suggest to move into another section with this project.

For the past weeks, I've been trying re-coding projectiles with the "helper controller" technique. It started when I discovered the PalFX issues (when the projectiles get root's PalFX applied) and wanted to avoid this display problem.
I've managed to get them behave quite well at first. Unfortunately, I ran into some specific issues.
Due to the way I'm using the "numhits" parameter, when rival projectiles collided, even there was no damage given to the opponent, the combo counter triggered itself and displayed "xx Damage !" as if any damage has been given to the opponent.
Also, on the projectile collisions' topic, there was the projectile priority stuff to deal with (Super projectiles > Special projectiles etc. ) .
Finally, there was also the juggle counter stuff to handle (the juggle counter is not redirected to the parent character).
Considering all this started with a "display" issue with PalFX and after many hours of testing and recoding, I've backdashed all the long to the basic Mugen projectile controller, and just added a trigger to the PalfFX controllers to make sure there is no active projectile when calling a PalFX. Less is more !

Not pretty much results in the end, but I've learned a lot ! So there is some positive aspect in it.

Also, some general tweaks (and basic stuff discovered :P ) :

Power meter
  • A+B (overhead launcher) doesn't need / consume power gauge, but doesn't build it neither 
  • All special moves become available once 1 gauge of power meter is built, not before
  • Normals > Specials cancels consume 1 gauge (the same way Ex moves do)
  • Reversal type special moves always consume 1 gauge
And I finally found out why i had no sound for the power level ups, and why the power gauge counter didn't change accordingly to the meter ! Basic stuff i presume, but I didn't find anything about it.
It's just that those level up sounds (and power level counter) are based on a 1000 meter scale for each gauge.
Actually, I'll have to tweak power meter stuff. Now, characters have a max 900 power points (3 x 300). I'll have to rearrange all for a max 3000 power points.

Charlotte
Changed a bit her throw animation
Has now 2 special moves (a multi slash and a DP attack)

I'm sure I've missed to notify other changes/tweaks, but nevermind ... none here will notice anyway since it's the first time I share it here ... :P

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  • I don't know if there is any policy about Gdrive stuff here ... I find it more convenient for me. If it's better to use another platform for sharing this kind of stuff, please do tell ! 
  • Since it's a full game project, i prefer making a full Mugen folder zip with all files up to date. Consider it as an alpha build of the project. :) 
  • The soundtracks are original creations from Jag24Music. You can contact him in most social media platforms.

Most important : a zip with the full game pack in the link below :
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwVJonTkYE6DRkxyR1pqeEVOaWM


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Enjoy !!!  :chef:



edit : link updated due to a change in the config file
- samurais, swords & stuff ? → Another Blade
Last Edit: November 07, 2016, 06:56:45 pm by mr_bourrepalestick

ExL

Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#13  November 08, 2016, 05:30:33 am
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Oh, yeah, there's limit on PM function, it's after 10 messages(afaik) you can start sending PMs. Hadn't thought about that, no big deal :)

It's good, that you managed to solve issue with counter yourself, but don't hesitate to ask on forum if you have troubles with something. There's  M.U.G.E.N Development Help section it isn't bad or anything to ask and there's plenty people that can help you out.

Does Specials just activate on LV1 or cost 1 bar? I can't recall where exactly, but I saw system where(was it Project LENSMAN? hadn't played it for a long time no, it wasn't, it have separate Tech Bar for all types of Cancels, but working in similar way) specials weren't spending meter, but wasn't available until certain levels and flashy Supers were spending bar temporarily disabling Specials.

There isn't anything anywhere on forum against GDrive, it's pretty convenient to use it. Hopefully with test version available more people will be lured here :D
I'll check it soon, right now I'm busy having issue with phone, need to get firmware, gapps and reflash this old piece of hardware to work again -_-'''
---
OK, I resolved that evil issue and finally tried the game. Game flows really well, enjoyed it, indeed! Also became another blade to be reckoned with :)
So yeah, I'll try to give feedback:
- music, I actually liked every track, but one, Castle Hall giving some unpleasant vibe repetitiveness in it's case deepens unpleasantness. To be honest I'm very surprised that I liked the rest of music, as I stated it's not my fav genre, but music is good and suiting, so Jag24Music done very well there;
- as Kagami is the first one to fight it caught the attention that his palette looks odd among others, too much contrast;
- real thing of course demonstrated to me how game flows way better than words, so I saw first person how meter works and it's balanced the way it is. The only thing I can suggest there is some differentiation of specials that use meter and ones that don't. Maybe same way as EX moves - have 2 buttons input and flashing(though flashing already used a lot in game) so it's obvious that 1 button moves are not consuming energy and 2 buttons are;
- also I know, that you isn't a big fan of massive flashy moves, but still suggest adding something like Desperation Mode and Desperation Attack. Say you have 25% of HP or lower, pressing a+b+c+down activating mode, you becoming red, like in SamSho movement speed increases a bit, HP drops to 1 and you can make Desperation Attack taking around 45% of enemy's HP(yes, flashy finisher, but people including me like finishing battle with super cool move). The catch should be not only making you 1 hit KOable, but also after move connects with opponent mode fades or if you made 3 unsuccessful tries it also fades. I think it's samurai-like, very risky and gives way to have nice flashy finish(oh, I'd like to see it in black and white with white background and black silhouettes and blood splash if enemy is finished with that move). Ehehe, sorry, got bit carried away;
- I find that interesting, but to my taste default battle pace is bit slow, don't change anything though, it's fixable through options and I ended using Fast 2 option, it's most comfy for me;
- one thing that bit disappointed me was kick+forward move, I thought there was LB's "pusher" implemented in and there was none, I think it's good mechanic to have. Beign able to push enemy away without any comboability afterwards is nice, sometimes you want to keep distance as much as possible, especially if you have ranged attacks and enemy is most dangerous up close;
- mugen 1.1 zoom can give more epicness to fight too, like in SamSho2 iirc;
- though game lacks lifebars overall looks and feel is very good and complete, atmosphere is maintained, very nicely done! :)

Don't think of my opinion as narrative, it's very subjective, I wish more people will try game and say what they think about it.
"Where greyness prevails, the black always take the power." (c) "Its Hard to be God" - brothers Strugatskie.
Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 11:19:04 am by ExL
Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#14  November 08, 2016, 03:59:07 pm
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Thanks for giving it a try and for your feedback mate !! :)  I'm taking down notes on each point of yours.
There are some things I can already tell you more about.

- music, I actually liked every track, but one, Castle Hall giving some unpleasant vibe repetitiveness in it's case deepens unpleasantness. To be honest I'm very surprised that I liked the rest of music, as I stated it's not my fav genre, but music is good and suiting, so Jag24Music done very well there;
I'm very glad you liked how the soundtracks suit the game ! In fact, Jag24Music got the right feel of the atmosphere I wanted to create around each character & stage. We discuss character's portrait, potential role in a story, take a look on suiting stages, and he makes the tracks as if he was in my head !!! So when you say Castle Hall is unpleasant ... let's say that I wanted it to sound creepy/uncomfortable. I'm not going to tell you more or I spoil some story stuff ;)

- as Kagami is the first one to fight it caught the attention that his palette looks odd among others, too much contrast;
Allright. I presume it's about palettes 1-2-3 (A-B-C buttons) ? Or even the other 4 palettes (X-Y-Z and Start+any ) ?  I'll try to workem out better, but still keeping some clear contrast.

- real thing of course demonstrated to me how game flows way better than words, so I saw first person how meter works and it's balanced the way it is. The only thing I can suggest there is some differentiation of specials that use meter and ones that don't. Maybe same way as EX moves - have 2 buttons input and flashing(though flashing already used a lot in game) so it's obvious that 1 button moves are not consuming energy and 2 buttons are;
Excellent point you've got here.
Actually, I want "reversal type specials" to consume meter. What do I call "reversal type specials" ? They're special moves that work very good in reversal situations : on wake-up , as anti-airs, during opponent's offensive pressings etc. . Typically, we're talking about DPs, SPDs, Lariat, which have :
- very quick startup
- some kind of invincibility / armor
- do some nice damage
- are very punishable.
In fact, what I like in your statement (rather what I come out with :P ), is that if a character has this kind of move (every member of the cast doesn't need to have one though...) , he doesn't need to have 2 versions of that move ! So the input can actually be  Some_Command + (A+B ) , or Some_Command + (A or B)  (which will give the same move).
A little PalFX flashing on startup frames (like for parrys) could give a hint on power consumption. It won't do any harm though, we're far from big flashes everywhere :D
The same for the Normal > Special cancels, they could have a quick PalFX flash on startup.

also I know, that you isn't a big fan of massive flashy moves, but still suggest adding something like Desperation Mode and Desperation Attack [...]
Took notes on your suggestions. I will implement some kind of Super / Desperation Moves stuff for sure.  For the moment, I was tending towards something similar to Lastblade's Desp.Moves, :
When low life --> Desp. Move available for free
In other cases --> Desp. Moves available on full power meter, consume all power meter on use
You can definitely count on some samurai-esque display (like Hibiki's Desp. Move in LastBlade 2)  ;)
And as I'm still hesitating on it's specific mechanics / conditions, every suggestion is welcome !!!

- one thing that bit disappointed me was kick+forward move, I thought there was LB's "pusher" implemented in and there was none, I think it's good mechanic to have. Beign able to push enemy away without any comboability afterwards is nice, sometimes you want to keep distance as much as possible, especially if you have ranged attacks and enemy is most dangerous up close;
I totally agree with your point gamewise. To be honest, I've been hesitating on a LastBlade's 6+C move. And since it needs some custom states to handle, I've left it aside first. I'll definitely review it now that I feel I can code it right (I'll dig into KFM's specials, he got one move that acts that way if I'm not mistaken).


Once more, thanks for your feedback ExL ! And mostly, thank you for taking time to become another blade to be reckoned with !!
(ps. : is there a typo I should correct btw ???  :P )
- samurais, swords & stuff ? → Another Blade

ExL

Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#15  November 08, 2016, 04:32:27 pm
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Let's see...
By Kagami's palettes I meant mostly his white coat ones, it's not that noticeable with dark ones, probably middle tone should be tweaked most.

Hm, I'd named them Offensive Techs, I mean Aerial Recovery for example is a Defensive Tech and those are offensive with meter drainage and technical usage compared to Specials. How you described it should work finely.

Yeah, with Desperation Move with or without Desp. Mode it can be implemented different ways. I liked how I described it through special mode =P but it can be this way - Desp. Mode uses full energy bar to activate and 25% of health, but always leaving 1HP even if there's less than 25% available, when activated energy constantly drains and Desp. Move available until energy drops to 0.  There can be other way around, constant drainage of HP when mode activated. Well in case of this game I'd suggest anything, but not usual Supers, they'll feel redundant.

There is small typo, indeed :) But what's more interesting, is what I sent you in PM useful for you at all?
"Where greyness prevails, the black always take the power." (c) "Its Hard to be God" - brothers Strugatskie.
Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#16  November 08, 2016, 08:58:28 pm
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How can't it be useful ? :)
I haven't started seriously screenpack stuff, but I'll definitely give your stuff a try ! Thanks a lot .
- samurais, swords & stuff ? → Another Blade
Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#17  November 17, 2016, 10:38:25 pm
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A new release for Another Blade project  (version 16-11-B) !!!

>>>   DOWNLOAD THE ZIP FILE (31 Mo) WITH THE LINK BELOW  <<<
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwVJonTkYE6DY1J2bENTRzZQV00

Some tweaks since last version, but most important : all 4 available characters have finally their special moveset with 2 special moves.

General Rules :
  • Special moves are available after the 1st meter slot (of the 3 available) is filled
  • Cancelling a normal move into a special move always uses 1 meter slot
  • Dragon Punches always use 1 meter slot, regardless if cancelled into or not
  • Throws (X button) and Overhead launchers (A+B) don't build meter.


HAOHMARU
  • QCF + A / B / C  : Projectile attack (C for fake).
    A and B versions behave differently / serve different purposes (A for links, B for juggle).
  • F-D-DF + A / B : Dragon Punch
    A version has invincible startup, hits once. B version hits twice and hits harder too !

YUMEJI
  • QCB + A / B / C  : Multi Slash attack (C for fake).
    A version can be juggled from (with right timing) , B version hits harder (and is more classy ... :P  ).
  • QCF + A / B : Projectile summon. A version summons low projectiles, B version high ones
    A / B / C  follow up --> projectile activation
    Each version has different properties / serves different purposes (C follow up is the same though).

CHARLOTTE
  • QCB + A / B   : Multi Slash attack
    A version can be linked from , B version hits harder and launches in the air.
  • F-D-DF + A / B : Dragon Punch
    A version has invincible startup, hits once. B version hits twice and harder

KAGAMI
  • F-D-DF + A / B : Dragon Punch
    A version has invincible startup, hits once. B version hits twice and harder
  • F-D-B + X : Command Grab . Can be followed up for the cost of 1 meter slot
    2 follow ups QCB + X  and  QCF + X


Maybe it's the time for a proper thread in an appropriate section now the project hits almost 50% of the 8 roster goal ...
At least, maybe I'll get better visibility in antoher thread section ? What you guys think about it ?
- samurais, swords & stuff ? → Another Blade
Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 10:41:38 pm by mr_bourrepalestick

ExL

Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#18  November 18, 2016, 12:51:44 pm
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Why not, of course make a thread in Projects, it's already more than abstract ideas or concepts. I hate to be the only one answering, maybe proper theme in Projects will change that. This deserves way more attention than it receives right now! Another Blade plays nicely and have uniqueness to it, more people needs to try it!
"Where greyness prevails, the black always take the power." (c) "Its Hard to be God" - brothers Strugatskie.
Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#19  November 18, 2016, 03:11:14 pm
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Mate, your posts always bring positive vibes ! I really appreciate it !
There is now a thread in the Projects section. I hope other people will give the game a try...
- samurais, swords & stuff ? → Another Blade

ExL

Re: Blades & Samurais Project
#20  November 19, 2016, 10:02:15 am
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Forgot to tell you that in new version Kagami's coat on white palettes now looks all good, but didn't used previously purple one, it needs same treatment. While I'm at that, Yumeji's purple palette needs same treatment for skirt. Charlotte's armour too, only one with green skirt have it perfect, also where she have black armour bluish skirt needs fixing, skirts on others are good and hair where she have red hair, white is too bright there, some shade of red will do...
Sorry wasn't looking at palettes specifically previously, hopefully I've addressed each that needed fixing.

Also had a question, I didn't expected Yumeji at all when loaded game for the first time. Will the game still have Ukyo in future or he won't make it? And he'll be there - any ideas on how to separate them? They are quite similar... Personally I like Ukyo in SamSho 5 Special then in 6, where Yumeji appeared, Yumeji is better there, IMO.
"Where greyness prevails, the black always take the power." (c) "Its Hard to be God" - brothers Strugatskie.