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CvS3 (done right) discussion! (Read 20098 times)

Started by lui, August 29, 2015, 02:59:38 pm

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CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#1  August 29, 2015, 02:59:38 pm
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Alright guys, we all know that we want CvS3 and that MUGEN can make that dream happen, but people are expecting "POTS style" to be the definite gameplay, which in my opinon won't really work. POTS style is inspired by CvS, yes, but it's also its own style at this point, due to its popularity.

We already have a kickass screenpack, but we still have no idea what the gameplay should actually be like, there has been always dream rosters and such, but i've mostly wondered for how the game should PLAY.

Here's my suggestions for the proposed gameplay:
1. Bring back the grooves - The grooves in the 2 games are probably the most important aspects, as it provides a means for players of both Capcom and SNK fighting games a way to play in the style they are most comfortable with and really broadens up the playing field in terms of strategy and balance.

2. Use grooves from more recent games and add a unique, universal element to the mix - As CvS2 mostly took playstyles from that era it was released at the time, if a CvS3 was made in more modern times, I say it should take from games like say 2007-present. (eg. USFIV for one groove, SF V for another, KOFXIII for one) It would also help to add some universal mechanics that would work in all grooves to give a game an identity. I propose for a "Desperation" mode, which if used with only 20 percent health, it would ditch the groove system and change your groove to a system that combines elements from all grooves while your health is running out, so basically POTS style with a time-limit.

3. Keep it solo! - As cool as it would be to have tag-team, the CvS series is all about the solo, pound-for-pound matches that make up the bulk of the SNK fighting games and Street Fighter, leave the tag-team stuff to the Versus Series. To compensate, make the matches alot faster, ala SFV. SFV is doing the right thing by going back to the basics and what makes SF so fun and adding a bunch of speed to it, CvS3 should do that too.

4.A unified art style - This one is pretty obvious, CvS2 and CvS were pretty criticized in terms of the art due to the recycling of the previous sprites from older capcom games. If there was a CvS3, the tech we have now would allow for an art style that is more consistent than the other two. 2D or 3D, HR or LR it doesn't matter, as long as the game look solid with solid direction in terms of character designs and stages.

5. Broaden up the roster! - Another obvious one, in the 2 games it was basically Street Fighter Vs. Kof with some Rival schools, Morrigan and a couple of Samsho and Last Blade characters thrown in there. Recent Capcom games have made a better effort of not using SF as much in their rosters, TvC being a good example with its Onimusha rep and Alex together. UMVC3 is a great example as well (but damn, no Megaman X! >:( ) I say, only have about 4 SF characters and 4 KoF characters and pick from games that arent in the Fighting genre, such as Metal Slug or God Hand or Asura's Wrath.

6.But keep the roster reasonable!- The CvS series isn't the Vs. games with its tag-teams and such, it relies on more grounded fighting with 1-on-1 battles, therefore it should have a smaller but tighter roster with unique gameplay styles to compensate. Im sick of people creating 100 plus compilation rosters and claiming it to be "the ultimate CvS game" 22-30 characters in total should be a good launch roster, should there be a DLC.

7.No stupid DLC! - Nobody wants to pay for wallpapers or calling cards. Nuff said. look at number 9 for why this is cut

8. No convoluted plot! - Some people want a deep story, thats not what dream matches are for, keep the "story" simple and limited to allow more time to be focused on the gameplay and-

9. Online! - Of course this has to be here, its a staple nowadays and should never be outed in a fighting game. Keep the online stable and the netcode clear, with Ranked and Unranked lobbies, parties, private matches, etc. MK9 and USFIV did it right!Oh god at first this was supposed to be ideas for a MUGEN version but I kinda went too far and was pretty much describing what should be found in a COMMERCIAL CvS3 game hehehehe my bad. In that case, for Online just leave it to IKEMEN

What would you want to see in a CvS3 game if there was ever one? Suggest below!
Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 03:27:39 pm by walruslui
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#2  August 29, 2015, 03:18:20 pm
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Alright guys, we all know that we want CvS3 and that MUGEN can make that dream happen, but people are expecting "POTS style" to be the definite gameplay, which in my opinion won't really work. POTS style is inspired by CvS, yes, but it's also its own style at this point, due to its popularity.
Strange, someone that thinks like me. It's rare these days.

I have some questions:
2- Use grooves from more recent games and add a unique, universal element to the mix
How would you call them?
Like in CvS2 (C, A, P, S, N, K)? or with different names? How many of them?

3- Keep it solo!
The tag mode could be included as DLC >:)

5- Broaden up the roster!
6- But keep the roster reasonable!
Like you said, about 4 characters from SF (we could put Ryu, Alex, Chun Li, Urien), 4 from KOF, then I would add 2 or 3 characters from the other games. The characters that don't make it in the final roster could be kept as cameo (but not like in CFJ, the way they implemented them there was horrible).

7- No stupid DLC!
With this, you don't mean "No DLC!" at all, right?

8- No convoluted plot!
How could their story be told?
Like in Alpha 3 (honestly I don't like it, just text), or like the CFJ endings (panels in a manga-ish style), or like in SFIV (the characters have an animated sequence)?

9- Online!
IKEMEN?

lui

Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#3  August 29, 2015, 03:25:55 pm
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2. Just keep it C,A,P,S,N,K

8. No plot at all! Look at MvC2 for example, Ruby Heart wants to gather the fighters to fight a big dude in a sphere, he dies, roll credits.

9.Oh god at first this was supposed to be ideas for a MUGEN version but I kinda went too far and was pretty much describing what should be found in a COMMERCIAL CvS3 game hehehehe my bad. In that case, for Online just leave it to IKEMEN.
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#4  August 29, 2015, 03:27:35 pm
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9.Oh god at first this was supposed to be ideas for a MUGEN version but I kinda went too far and was pretty much describing what should be found in a COMMERCIAL CvS3 game hehehehe my bad.
Heheh, I had the same feeling. :) I was going to report you >:)

Ah, so no plot? Well, the CvS2 games didn't have one either, it was a tournament.

lui

Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#5  August 29, 2015, 03:29:18 pm
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pretty much yeah, the only story was that the announcer was SUUPER hyped about Capcom facing off against SNK he even spoke almost broken Engrish out of excitement!

that being said, do you think the final boss should be a established character from either Capcom or SNK or should it be a new, original boss? Should there even be original characters in the first place like NGBC or MVC2?
Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 03:33:54 pm by walruslui
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#6  August 29, 2015, 03:44:51 pm
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I think the boss line for Cvs3 should follow like the one in CvS2. When I planned my own CvS3 for Mugrn, here's who I had in mind.

Capcom: Black (FF3) - Kurow (PJ2) - Urien (SF3) - Gill (SF3)

SNK: Mr Big (AoF) - Kain (Garou) - Goenitz (KoF) - Orochi (KoF)

Pretty much tried to keep it a wee varied but eh

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Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#7  August 29, 2015, 04:14:46 pm
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This is in terms of gameplay..
1. On a scale of 1-10 how would you rate your fighting game knowledge?(I ask because if high you would understand without me having to explain in depth)
2. Do you understand the real reason why pots style is popular?
3. Do you understand what made each groove that particular groove?
Breakdown.. Most unique trait. (Not mentioning these could be edited at will)
C.groove = Standard(cancel-able supers)
A.groove = Custom combo
P.groove = Essentially 3S power gauge with parry
S.groove = Dodge, Power charge, & kof staple low health = infinite lvl 1 super
N.groove = Counter away & Max mode
K.groove = Essentially same thing as revenge gauge in sf4 with damg buff & just defense
Ex.groove = all of the above(you decide) with the exception of K
Pots style = Updated ex groove = all of the above = K aka revenge low health only supers are easy to make
I guesss it could be an option, but if you could have it all in one you wouldn't? Comes down to preference if thats what you meant then okay. I can see in some point where it'd be similar to picking only one super in sf4.
Pots style is the closest thing to uniform in mugen if done correctly & can be added unto. Unless you believe the division of mechanics through grooves will make a game more in depth.

Question. What fighting games specifically have a groove not already implemented in some way? What main mechanic from a fighting game(in the cvs3 universe) could be used here? That isn't similar to any of these? Unless you want to get superrrrr specific & out of pocket naming things like "ultimate guard" or "Baroque" for example, but would those actually fit?

Why remove tag? Isn't it just a separate mode(&optional)? Does that mean no team either? Kinda kof's main thing.
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#8  August 29, 2015, 04:25:10 pm
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This is just me, but I prefer the tag team games that take longer. But I understand where you're coming  from with the solo thing. The art style like you said, would obviously have to be unified. I totally agree with you about the roster part. Seeing the same characters over and over isn't fun. I'd like more characters from Asura's Wrath, Okami, Sam Sho, Darkstalkers, Rival Schools, etc etc.
I also think that guest characters from other franchises would be cool too, but I guess that wouldn't make it CVS3 would it lol? Like something from Tekken or Virtua Fighter? I dunno.
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#9  August 29, 2015, 04:26:59 pm
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May I ask the link for the screenpack, guys? I was not able to find it.
The idea is interesting but I can't help you for gameplay ideas since I'm spending all my time on remastering protraits and don't play a lot. xD
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#10  August 29, 2015, 04:47:19 pm
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This is just me, but I prefer the tag team games that take longer. But I understand where you're coming  from with the solo thing. The art style like you said, would obviously have to be unified. I totally agree with you about the roster part. Seeing the same characters over and over isn't fun. I'd like more characters from Asura's Wrath, Okami, Sam Sho, Darkstalkers, Rival Schools, etc etc.
I also think that guest characters from other franchises would be cool too, but I guess that wouldn't make it CVS3 would it lol? Like something from Tekken or Virtua Fighter? I dunno.

This is mugen though.. Roster size is basically the amount of work/time you'd be willing to spend on each individual character; less characters "usually" means better "balance" more focus on individuals because you aren't having to maintain a multitude of different playstyles(Mvc2 somewhat succeeded?). "Video game company + smaller roster = less work = +$$$" "Video game company + bigger roster = more work = -$$. Mugen = 0gald = work/time/dedication dependent on user? What if someone put the time in to make them all mesh & uniform? Then what? See where I'm going with this back to pots style = closet thing to balance(cvs-esc hybrid) One of the main complaints from fighting game fans is always(believe it or not) roster size.. Not that it has to be 100! Just saying it could if done right...
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#11  August 29, 2015, 05:03:40 pm
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I'm not exactly fond of CvS2 so this is more a list of what would make CvS3 more tolerable.

Keep the grooves condensed: Excess grooves and naturally some of them sucked. S-Grooves charge rate sucked and the power bonus wasn't worth it. P was just as bad since meter gain sucked so bad and the parry window being so tight didn't help matters. Making only 4 grooves would be better. Remove A and make custom combos a part of C. Remove S and make the desperation feature a part of either N or K. Make dodge a part of K-groove.

Mix up the roster: SNK's side actually isn't that bad considering that where talking KoF, FF, and AoF reps and blade fighters kinda clash with the other chars. I do think they could have a couple more non-KoF entries. Too much SF2 on the Capcom side, ax some of them. Another DS rep, FF rep, RS rep, and a couple more from SF3 would be more diverse. A couple non fg reps from the likes of Metal Slug and Megaman would be nice fanservice too.

Make small jump better: This could've been a real fun addition but instead it's useless bloat. Comboing from this is more of a chore than it should be and certain tricks (meter gain with Athena's Phoenix Arrow, distancing with Hurricane Kick) doesn't work because of being defaulted to small jump first.

Up damage: Why the fuck does an average level one take as much damage as a meterless DP? Don't need to explain that one. I'd also up damage overall by a nice bit. Game doesn't move fast enough for such low damage moves.

Unified character art style: Outside of the game looking prettier, it lessens the range advantage some of the SFA style characters enjoy.

Make SNK chars better: Only a select few are really viable and a good number are borderline unplayable. Game would be better if they could compete with the better, more boring SF chars.[/fanboying]

Probably a couple others I could mention but mobile posting is a chore.
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#12  August 30, 2015, 04:01:07 am
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Make small jump better: This could've been a real fun addition but instead it's useless bloat. Comboing from this is more of a chore than it should be and certain tricks (meter gain with Athena's Phoenix Arrow, distancing with Hurricane Kick) doesn't work because of being defaulted to small jump first.

Make SNK chars better: Only a select few are really viable and a good number are borderline unplayable. Game would be better if they could compete with the better, more boring SF chars.[/fanboying]


1. How often could you say you've used small jump? Do you use it right? Have you played 3S much, or nah? Are you are aware of the cancel possibilities already implemented?

2. Okay you stated you were fanboying because I was about to throw some data at you haha! It comes down to.. Anyone here play lol? They'd understand the concept better "Player skill > Character". Sure some could have advantages, but all in all technicalities unless you believe in the meta of tiers.
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#13  August 30, 2015, 04:12:59 am
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They'd understand the concept better "Player skill > Character". Sure some could have advantages, but all in all technicalities unless you believe in the meta of tiers.

Lol okay. When I paint the fence on you won't be saying "Player skill > Character".

Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#14  August 30, 2015, 04:17:11 am
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They'd understand the concept better "Player skill > Character". Sure some could have advantages, but all in all technicalities unless you believe in the meta of tiers.

Lol okay. When I paint the fence on you won't be saying "Player skill > Character".



Not following the lingo, but Aye.. Put your money where your mouth is.. If you are talking fighting games I'd be happy to oblige...
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#15  August 30, 2015, 04:20:15 am
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Painting the fence.

Sakura also has a similier CC with her shouoken, but it's not as good.

EDIT: I'd just like to say that I don't doubt that player skill plays an important part in winning a fighting game, it does, but when you are making a fighting game you have to assume everyone is of equal (competitive) skill and balance the game so that stuff like that Bison 75% combo doesn't happen.
Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 04:53:46 am by -Whiplash-
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#16  August 30, 2015, 04:28:25 am
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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nNfvs9tqTU[/youtube]

Painting the fence.

Sakura also has a similier infinite with her shouoken, but it's not as good.

Not sure I'm following? That "is" custom combo kinda what it does. Also a training mode corner combo. Viable competitively? Also the execution + arcade stick? What does this pertain to? Speaking of the hybrid that is pots style? CVS isn't MVC3 you can't lock in a cc that easily especially seeing as you can't block.
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#17  August 30, 2015, 04:42:02 am
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You can get that combo off a c. LK.

Yes it's viable competitively. It's part of the reason he's considered the best character in the game. (there are more, but that's the one I know.)
 
About the arcade stick... IDK, random video I found on google in 2 seconds.

I was trying to say that the game DOES need a balance rework, is all.
Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 04:48:50 am by -Whiplash-
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#18  August 30, 2015, 05:00:09 am
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I've been thinking of a new CvS or SvC for like the longest time! Of course, I'm also not a frequent MUGEN-er and I haven't put any time into making a character...would like to start though...

Gameplay should either have 1 definite Groove or 2/4 different Grooves. I think 6 is a bit too much. The Grooves, like everyone is saying, should be based off the recent games, so KoF XIII is a must. USFIV and SF V are definitely good choices although SF III does sound appealing.

Personally, I think some characters from SNK and Capcom (such as Kyo, Iori, K', Ryu, Ken, and Morrigan) are no-brainers, but in terms of series in general, NGBC had the right idea in representing their roster.

So KoF, Fatal Fury, Art of Fighting, Garou, and Samurai Shodown should all have some representatives, while I think it would be cool to get some Metal Slug, Last Blade, Savage Reign, and Buriki One representatives (Psycho Soldier and Ikari Warriors count as or outside of KoF? If they count outside, then their reps sound good).

As for Capcom, SF is a no-brainer, but some SFIII reps would be a damn good idea (*cough*Alex*cough*). A little diversifying of rosters never hurt, and while I'm cool with Balrog, Vega, Sagat, and Bison, Blanka's gotta go...E Honda could stay, but idk. Final Fight, Megaman, Rival Schools, and Devil May Cry reps would be cool to have (would say "essential," but I think some people could disagree). Hell, Capcom's got a lot of games; bring in some obscure ones like they did before for their vs games!

I have a roster thought out, but there's way too many characters on there lol. And besides, an idea's just an idea and anyone can think of one and all I'm doing is rambling with no action.

EDIT: Also, balance and moveset is obviously important. It sounds a bit excessive, but looking into every game the characters came out in and implementing their moves would be great. I mean, Ryu needs to show off that Donkey Kick more often and Ash Crimson has a counter in MIRA. I like the idea of everyone having the same health like KoF XIII, but I don't speak for everyone.
Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 05:05:18 am by ZeroInNothingness
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#19  August 30, 2015, 05:25:34 am
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1. How often could you say you've used small jump? Do you use it right? Have you played 3S much, or nah? Are you are aware of the cancel possibilities already implemented?

2. Okay you stated you were fanboying because I was about to throw some data at you haha! It comes down to.. Anyone here play lol? They'd understand the concept better "Player skill > Character". Sure some could have advantages, but all in all technicalities unless you believe in the meta of tiers.

1. My point boils to small jump not being very fun. Unless you cancel into a special/super, you incur massive recovery. Recovery that doesn't exist in KoF. And the universal overhead from 3S is also more enjoyable since again, much shorter recovery. Also the second part is fact, that can't be disputed. CvS2 registers small jump first in grooves that have them.

2. Of course player skill has some importance, but in a game that has so many characters and mechanics, it's only natural some chars would be leagues better than others. Even in intermediate level play. Besides the obvious being not as good, lower tier chars are often less fun too. Less to work with in a match.

I'll admit to not being good in any form at CvS2. I don't care to be since the game doesn't appeal to me enough to practice. I don't need to be to have knowledge of the game engine and its characters.
Re: CvS3 (done right) discussion!
#20  August 30, 2015, 05:30:44 am
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Player skill is important in any game, but no game is perfectly balanced. There's a tier list made for games for a reason: tier lists are lists that gauge a character's viability when two player's skills are completely equal, and some characters just perform better than other characters in the areas that make them more competitively viable.

Also, I like the idea of a 4-button gameplay like SNK, but 6-button gameplay makes sense too. I think it'll be good to look at CvS2 as a reference for a new CvS, not as a base when it comes to mechanics.