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LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA. (Read 7977 times)

Started by 地獄の花, May 27, 2019, 05:02:48 pm
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LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
New #1  May 27, 2019, 05:02:48 pm
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americans are pushing a bill to remove lootboxes in games , thoughts about it? is it a form of gambling? or?
https://www.hawley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/2019-05/Loot-Box-Bill-Text.pdf
and it looks like it's only targeting non-mature rated games , does that mean lootboxes are still ok in matured rated games? csgo is M rated if i recall and esrb are a shill organization they could just re-evaluate big company games and put them on mature.... loop hole?


i played some games that featured it pubg,csgo,bf,fgo etc and been in to casinos (and lost) couple of times and i can say that it's very similar.

the argument is that in gacha/loot boxes you don't really lose cause you still get items but those items are worth jack shit and some times a waste of space and inventory like those boat girls mobile game (i don't play 3rd rate trash waifu games) that would give you tons of inferior or even useless characters just to fill up your inventory and make you buy more inventory so you wouldn't experience the pain of deleting your trash waifu boats. it's like those cheap drinks casino give out for their costumers on the floor. it's "free".

i heard belgium have declared loot boxes to be illegal , what did the companies replaced it with? are there any belgians here btw?
Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 09:28:17 pm by Speedpreacher
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#2  May 27, 2019, 06:44:00 pm
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and esrb are a shill organization they could just re-evaluate big company games and put them on mature.... loop hole?
You're thinking about it the wrong way. Gambling shouldn't be aimed at children, so if there's gambling, then it has to be rated M to be marketed at adults and not children.
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Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#3  May 27, 2019, 06:59:25 pm
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that actually makes sense, so we gonna see a lot of m rated games in the future then.

so sports game will definitely take a big hit on this. in the bright side it'll make the competition fair especially for other multiplayer genre that can't sell lootboxes like fighting games.
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#4  May 27, 2019, 07:31:08 pm
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#5  May 27, 2019, 07:45:50 pm
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i heard belgium have declared loot boxes to be illegal , what did the companies replaced it with? are there any belgians here btw?
Last I heard, they replaced it with shutting down their belgian servers.
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#6  May 27, 2019, 08:12:47 pm
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Loot boxes are poison

Agreed.  Publishers have fallen into this mindset that every game has to have microtransactions and has to have loot boxes and will force developers to include them even if they have no place in the game or nothing worth charging money for.  There are a number of games that are tangibly, objectively worse products than they could have been because the developers were forced to shoehorn in monetization elements.  I hope this bill passes so this shit can start coming to an end.

esrb are a shill organization they could just re-evaluate big company games and put them on mature.... loop hole?

The bill is specifically targeting gambling elements in games intended to be played by children.  No publisher is going to make a kids game and then pay more money to have it rated so that kids aren't allowed to buy it and parents won't get it for them.
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#7  May 27, 2019, 08:29:27 pm
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Yeah, I really do hate that companies are relying too much on gatcha games for revenue cause looking at some games that do it nowadays are either just for flavor or really center it around gatcha. I do believe that parents should step in and monitor their kids when getting into games like this, but at the same time companies are just as bad putting in gatcha systems for games that don't need it.
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#8  May 27, 2019, 09:25:38 pm
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You know its bad when people start reminiscing about the days of early micro transactions where you simply bought whatever you wanted. Now with this RnG loot box bullshit, you're getting milked for your money like an alcoholic gambling addicted loser, and you're getting nothing useful in return.
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#9  May 27, 2019, 09:44:07 pm
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You know its bad when people start reminiscing about the days of early micro transactions where you simply bought whatever you wanted. Now with this RnG loot box bullshit, you're getting milked for your money like an alcoholic gambling addicted loser, and you're getting nothing useful in return.


Perfect summary Gennos, I'd rather buy all the unlockables than just pay for a chance to unlock it.
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#10  May 27, 2019, 09:57:04 pm
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My question is that while I agree that children shouldn't gamble, what is the bill's stance on things like Pokemon Trading Cards, Magic the Gathering, and other real-life physical gatcha franchises? Because, depending on the definition, one can argue that those are gambling lootboxes too. Even baseball cards can be considered as lootboxes too and no one is complaining about them back before I was born.

Also, how are the children spending money on gatcha? Do they all have their own credit cards or what? Because I think a simpler solution to all of this instead of expensive and risky government intervention is for parents to monitor their kids spending, playing, and smartphone habits. Maybe no access to credit card and restrict the purchasing of physical cash cards for Android and Apple systems. Heck, it maybe could provide an opportunity for a bit of life lesson: if you want something in life, work for it! Make them rake leaves or mow the lawn (when they are older) for the cash to pay for their gatcha spending habits, or possibly teach them the value of saving money.
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Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#11  May 27, 2019, 10:05:27 pm
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Thinking about it, this is probably a band-aid on the issue cause it really should look at all aspects of the situation. Speaking like that then you might as well go after everything chance based, and that's going to really piss off a bunch of people cause then you are messing with the economy and the like. Like I said earlier, it's up to the parents to monitor their kids activities on their smartphone.
Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 10:21:50 pm by R565
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#12  May 27, 2019, 10:33:55 pm
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Thinking about it, this is probably a band-aid on the issue cause it really should look at all aspects of the situation. Speaking like that then you might as well go after everything chance based, and that's going to really piss off a bunch of people cause then you are messing with the economy and the like.

Exactly.

I know many gamers, like me, are upset about the spread of lootboxes and gatcha in the video games industry and want to see them gone, but I believe that this is entirely the wrong way to go. Either this bill will be too weak and will be nothing more than a paper tiger in practice or the bill will be too broad and oppressive and will damage the video games industry, if not kill it entirely. I have no confidence that this bill will fulfill whatever purpose gamers wanted to fulfill.

I do think that this whole discussion is nothing more than virtue signalling for the senators involved, showing the public that they are doing something, but not really doing something at all in reality.

EDIT:

Okay, after reviewing this bill. I can say that this bill is garbage. From what I can read, this bill could potentially cover ALL games and not just "minor-targeted games", depending on how would one lawyer out the language used in the bill. And from the way it is written, this could potentially kill off whole sections of relatively benign games like CCGs or games with timed energy-bars, if I am reading the paragraphs correctly.

While some of you would be cheering, I will not. I will not tolerate such a badly designed and implemented law.
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Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 11:04:22 pm by DNZRX768
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#13  May 28, 2019, 12:02:31 am
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I agree, it's a bad bill in the first place because it's a blanket that will shut down anything close to that system. Once again it's the government doing something that parents should have been doing in the first place.
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#14  May 28, 2019, 12:29:22 am
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Is this going to extend to DLCs? Because if yes, then the fighting game community is gonna be hit. Hard. So hard, it'll force publishers to not release any game with planned late additions, like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Dead Or Alive, The King Of Fighters and Super Smash Bros.

Twitter Thread: Nanogenix

Nanogenix said:
A bit of an update on this Anti Loot Box Bill:

The only exclusions currently listed:
- Difficultly Modes
- Cosmetic Items
- Downloadable Expansions

So this could affect more than Loot Boxes:
- Games that sell Characters as DLC
- Any XP Boosts
- Any weapons or perks, etc

Games such as Mortal Kombat 11, Dragonball FighterZ, etc. would potentially have to change how they do DLC or just not at all under this new bill if it isn’t changed. Right now additional fighters not included in the base game could be viewed as an ‘advantage’ and be considered illegal.
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#15  May 28, 2019, 12:41:00 am
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That's a big OOF. What were they thinking when they made this bill!?
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#16  May 28, 2019, 01:35:12 am
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Maybe they don't think. But since when do politicians think hard about the consequences of the laws they passed?

Honestly, this strengthens my theory that this entire action is just an act to drum up support and votes for the politician. Many people just look at the title of the bill and see protecting kids and thinks that this is a good thing and that the politician is a good person. When looking under the cover, you find all of these loopholes and unclear language and notice that this is a badly-written bill. Only a few people do that, who are vastly outnumbered by the people in the former category.

While I do think that this bill will silently die in committee, do we really want to risk it actually going to the White House's desk? We should spread the word about the bill's flaws and hopefully it will be enough.
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Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#17  May 28, 2019, 01:58:02 am
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here's a controversial thought:

this is just another questionable thing in the games industry that gets monetized. there's been way worse stuff in the past and there will be stuff like this in the future. it's not really a sign of gaming going downhill, it's just another fork in the road.

remember when we had to pay for 4 seperate devices plus peripherals just to play zelda four swords adventures with friends? remember how expensive that was?

or when we had to pay for entire sets of peripherals just to do simple stuff like light up a gameboy screen or pay full for different versions of games with one or two extra things thats removed in another version?

over the years there's always gonna be something silly that's overly expensive, it's not really a thing that's exclusive to this gen.

there's gonna be something else in the future that replaces this, and honestly its one of the more tamer things to come out in recent years. even then lootboxes are slowly diseappearing from the limelight, most controversial games that have them in abundant amounts have either modified them to make them obtainable via in-game currency like DBFZ or just straight up remove them altogether.

making them illegal altogether right here and now is pretty bad considering how many games do rely on paid updates to keep going and making even more content.
Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 02:01:19 am by lui
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#18  May 28, 2019, 02:09:48 am
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I never get tempted by those plastic egg with random toy inside or random dragonball vending machine back in the days, the idea of paying for something random is mind blowing to me.
in township mobile game there is pick a box kind of game where you spend in game special currency we get from helping others, I don't mind that, but if I ran out that currency I would just start helping others again not spending real money to buy that currency.
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#19  May 28, 2019, 02:59:57 am
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Nanogenix said:
So this could affect more than Loot Boxes:
- Games that sell Characters as DLC
- Any weapons or perks, etc
No.
the bill said:
(iii) ADDITIONAL GAME CONTENT.—
18 Such term shall not include an add-on
19 transaction ... that adds new content ... (that) can be purchased only once by
23 a user and the perceived value offered by
24 such transaction ... is not that it—
... (can be obtained without paying)
If you pay once for this new content, and it's not a benefit that you can have without paying (like if you can have it by playing harder or longer) then it's not impacted. Actual content added through DLC released after the game, like DLC characters, story expansions, new weapons dlc packs, new maps and so on, will not be affected.

It does shut down the old style of unlocking stuff by playing but also having the option to pay to immediately unlock it. The current type of fighting game dlc (completely locked out and you have to pay to unlock) is okay.
I think SF5's fight money is toast though, but I haven't touched it in a few seasons (costumes parts and stages might count as cosmetics which is also excluded, but not characters), and I guess Mortal Kombat 11 but I hear everyone was pissed at that one.

I only quickly skimmed through it and stopped at the part that said "here's how we define the words we used" in big letters. Anyone else cares to actually read it ?
(it's funny because this Nanogenix guy listed the types of stuff that was specifically named as things that would not be affected by this bill)

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this is just another questionable thing in the games industry that gets monetized. there's been way worse stuff in the past and there will be stuff like this in the future. it's not really a sign of gaming going downhill, it's just another fork in the road.
The things you're talking about was mostly due to hardware limitations. They physically couldn't make it work otherwise. Now that everything's digital, with total control over what you give for what price, predatory targeting has gone way up and are completely different from the old consoles. This is the evolution of the old lottery toys, which is literally where the term gacha came from. It was fine when it was physical, but when it became immaterial, it turned way too close to virtual gambling. Which shouldn't be targeted at kids, unlike physical toys.

Not sure what you mean about dbfz. Money gets you actual DLC content, in-game currency gets you lottery stuff but you can't get more of that with real money.
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Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 03:30:41 am by Byakko
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#20  May 28, 2019, 04:50:53 am
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Final Thoughts for now:

Keep in mind that this bill was just introduced into Senate and a committee still needs to work on it. That means the specifics of the bill as well as the provisions and conditions would most likely change. Not to mention that a committee from the House of Representatives needs to work on it too and that the bill can be killed at anytime if it becomes too infeasible. I do think that this issue is one we all need to keep an eye on...

That being said, my objections and issues with the bill remains as I posted before. If they are not resolved to a satisfactory degree by the time it reaches the President's desk, then I would like for the President to veto the bill.
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Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#21  May 28, 2019, 07:07:37 am
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Not sure what you mean about dbfz. Money gets you actual DLC content, in-game currency gets you lottery stuff but you can't get more of that with real money.

thats what i mean, many games nowadays are making lootboxes in-game not even cost actual money, like dbfz.

what im saying is that lootboxes are slowly not being as cancerous and are being handled at a decent rate by most games nowadays.
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#22  May 28, 2019, 08:50:53 am
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making them illegal altogether right here and now is pretty bad considering how many games do rely on paid updates to keep going and making even more content.
They shouldn't exist in a game that you pay 60 dollars upfront for. That's where companies are supposed to make their money from.
If they want microtrancations they should atleast not make RNG gambling and just sell their shitty weapons skins normally.

Also what is it with you and this sympathy that you have for multi billionaire games companies? they're not angels. They abuse their workers and force them to work long ass crunch time hours and barely pay them. Some developers straight up quit working in the gaming industry after working for AAA game companies.
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#23  May 28, 2019, 12:05:46 pm
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Mentioned already but DLC characters will be fine, it can only be purchased once.

I'd also like to add that this would possibly all games. Even M-rated games are 17+, still below the legal gambling age. It'd be interesting to see the overall fallout if this does go through, mobile gacha would have to be changed in order to comply with the standards. Or possibly be put to pasture, at least in the US anyway.

This is easily the biggest cancer in the history of video games, even worse then the shovelware that was being pushed before the industry crash. It's unethical, predatory, lazy, and the most disgusting example of publishers putting profit above all else. At least in the arcade model you paid to play the game with a chance to win. Here you're blowing money out the ass for... a chance to earn something?

As someone who wants as little government involvement as possible in video games (or just about anything for that matter), this is the one area I can easily make an exception for. There is no reason for loot boxes to exist inside of T-rated games.

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Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#24  May 28, 2019, 01:15:14 pm
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making them illegal altogether right here and now is pretty bad considering how many games do rely on paid updates to keep going and making even more content.
They shouldn't exist in a game that you pay 60 dollars upfront for. That's where companies are supposed to make their money from.
If they want microtrancations they should atleast not make RNG gambling and just sell their shitty weapons skins normally.

Also what is it with you and this sympathy that you have for multi billionaire games companies? they're not angels. They abuse their workers and force them to work long ass crunch time hours and barely pay them. Some developers straight up quit working in the gaming industry after working for AAA game companies.

Youre twisting my words into thinking i have sympathy for companies just because im saying that lootboxes arent the worst things in the world. I said its another fork in the road. Every generation has had to deal with bs practices in one form or another and there will be something worse or atleast along the same lines. Its an industry and this is how other industries are as well.

Nothing i said suggests i actively approve of everything nor does it say i think its all a okay.

Read more closely please.
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#25  May 28, 2019, 07:10:07 pm
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Loot boxes are a predatory design locking content that should just be put up for purchase behind not only a paywall but RNG, and on top of that they artificially increase the rarity by making drop rates for certain pulls absymal. This is best seen in Gacha games where the entirety of the gameplay revolves around spending exorbitant amounts of money in the HOPE you get good units that allow you to progress through the game. Even for cosmetic factors, this sort of thing is basically a not-so-subtle way for developers to milk your wallet for everything its worth- its based on the addictive principles of gambling, and gambling halls/casinos also game their systems to ensure theyre drying you of as much money as possible. This practice is at best harmful, and at worst straight up predatory. It is not just some "bad gaming trend" and Gennos is correct. You have a history of playing devils advocate for this sorta thing. Its not a defensible practice unless you think its good the already rich company is getting richer off this sort of thing.
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#26  May 28, 2019, 10:07:28 pm
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What's wrong with playing devil's advocate? Having someone playing the role of the devil's advocate could help expose gaps in ones argument that requires swift rectification.
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#27  May 28, 2019, 11:01:04 pm
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What's wrong with playing devil's advocate?
Generally speaking, when all you do is play devil's advocate, then... at some point you're just on the side of the devil. Not saying whether or not this is the case for this specific person (but the guys up here are saying this IS what he's doing), I'm just pointing out the gap in your argument.
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Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 11:07:29 pm by Byakko
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#28  May 28, 2019, 11:08:58 pm
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making them illegal altogether right here and now is pretty bad considering how many games do rely on paid updates to keep going and making even more content.
In this quote you seem worried about what would happen to those poor companies and their games when loot boxes are shut down. Thinking that they would stop providing their online services without lootboxes to sustain them. But the fact is games have been providing online services long before lootboxes were a thing, you can still pick a copy of Modern Warfare 2 and log online and play with other people. No online services of a triple A game have ever been shut down because not enough money was earned from microtransactions.
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#29  May 29, 2019, 04:45:24 am
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Looking at the bill again, something concerning and confusing jumps out to me that I have not noticed before:

Sections 4 and 5 is about research and study of the lootbox, PtW, and micro transaction problem. The bill states that the Federal Trade Commission should submit reports summarizing their findings to Congress not later than two years after the bill becomes law.

Which is nice, except that would it be much better if research and analysis of the problem be done BEFORE any law about the problem be passed and resources be spent? Because I would not want my tax-payer money be tossed at an endeavour that could very well be a nothing-burger.
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#30  May 29, 2019, 05:35:49 am
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Yes, won't anyone please think about those poor defenseless mega corporations that surpassed the movie industry as the highest profiting entertainment outlet?

How will they ever manage to survive if their latest manipulative skinner box gambling outlet gets outlawed? All of the insane amounts of money they make totally goes back into the economy as high wages and bonuses for the game developers, and in no way gets siphoned into the pockets of shareholders to get hidden away in offshore accounts.

This will be the death of gaming!

...or they will move to  a new monetization method and make everything in a game ala carte, or subscription based. Gotta keep them shareholders happy. If profits aren't higher than last quarter, you are a complete failure.

Play FiFa 2020, only $59.99... a month! Assemble your dream team for as low as $15 per player!

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#31  May 29, 2019, 04:08:27 pm
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Sorry, I missed the part of the law where it says only big companies and AAA games are gong to be affected by the new laws. care to point out where it is ?
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#32  May 29, 2019, 04:44:07 pm
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What small company makes gacha games on consoles or mobile ?
Delightworks ?
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Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#33  May 29, 2019, 04:55:17 pm
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Lol you really think small game developers rely on loot boxes to fund their games?
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#34  May 29, 2019, 05:39:09 pm
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lol, you really think laws only apply to big companies and not small ones.
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#35  May 29, 2019, 05:46:53 pm
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Can you apply a law to something that doesn't exist ?
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
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#36  May 29, 2019, 06:01:49 pm
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yeah, and by making it a law they will amke sure it won't exist in the future either.
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#37  May 29, 2019, 06:18:16 pm
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But that's a good thing.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#38  May 29, 2019, 06:34:00 pm
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  • Time to give back to this place. Starting now.
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We really do need to stop this practice anyway. We also need to get parents to look at the stuff their kids are getting into.
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#39  May 29, 2019, 08:49:59 pm
  • ******
There are lots of small companies that release or even rely on gacha to generate money. The thing about those companies is that they have to be fair, rational, and rely on consumer trust for their game to have a chance at staying afloat. Something Epic or EA would obviously not give a damn about.

For every game like FGO or Granblue, there's many more flops like the recent Disgaea gacha that Nippon Ichi tried and failed at due to bad servers. They're now looking at bankruptcy for their lack of success. And SNK with the many mobile games they released before they were bought out, none of which having any massive success until the Metal Slug tower game some years ago. Mobile is a very competitive market, but one of the few where small developer/publishers can find success.

I would much rather the industry self-regulate, but it's already been shown how much they can be trusted with that. So now the next step is being considered, and it's simply something everyone will have to adjust for. Some thanks can be given to the ESRB for their negligence in comparing loot boxes to CCGs. Ignoring how much more accessible the former is, and how much more interactive video games are to paper products (casinos use bright, heavy colors for a reason).
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#40  May 29, 2019, 09:18:03 pm
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  • The story begins with who's gonna win
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The takeaway from this whole debacle has been that the ESA can no longer be trusted to do the job it was created for

To provide the industry a chance to self-regulate before the government comes in swinging the uncaring bat of legislation
Oh, why must I tell 'em again?
What must I tell 'em, my friend?
That we are born into sin
And we are worshiping murderers
Nothing but evil duplicitous men
I know you heard of 'em all
We should just murder 'em all
We should just murder and ball
We dance on the ruins we looting from all of they palace's walls
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#41  May 30, 2019, 01:33:42 am
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  • all is love in fair and war
rather than exchanging real money into in game currency to buy lootboxes, I rather open those advertisement clips and earn game currency from that, and also from other in game activities that pay in the currency, when you hard earn your game currency then you don't value randomness that high.
I find myself spending real money at the beginning of a game because I want some objects, but once I play for awhile I no longer spend money since I'm patience enough to earn the currency with in game activities.
Re: LET'S TALK ABOUT LOOT BOXES/GACHA.
#42  May 30, 2019, 02:28:38 am
  • **
    • Canada
The takeaway from this whole debacle has been that the ESA can no longer be trusted to do the job it was created for

To provide the industry a chance to self-regulate before the government comes in swinging the uncaring bat of legislation

Yes! this, 100%. The entire reason they were created was to prevent the government from coming in and annihilating the industry through regulation.

They had there chance to pull back the reins on this loot box non-sense before it exploded the way it did. Now its too late.