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"Cheapness" in fighting games (Read 20398 times)

Started by Retro Respecter, August 18, 2009, 07:47:02 am
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"Cheapness" in fighting games
#1  August 18, 2009, 07:47:02 am
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So how do you "break" a game, ladies and gentlemen?
Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 10:39:21 am by OG [PotS]
Re: The Best of the Fighting Crossovers
#2  August 18, 2009, 08:04:47 am
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Things that take away the competative aspect from the game. IE X-men vs. Street Fighter is broken because almost every character has really easy infinites that you can lead in to with minimal effort. In Super Turbo Akuma is broken when played correctly since he can leave characters in infinite block stun never letting the opponent  do anything no matter what happens on their joystick. SvC although not as broken as those two has some characters with big unblockable set ups that skilled players are able to bust out with ease, death loops etc. Characters are incredibly unbalanced where some are awesome and others SNK just didn't know what to do with.

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Re: The Best of the Fighting Crossovers
#3  August 18, 2009, 08:19:57 am
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Re: The Best of the Fighting Crossovers
#4  August 18, 2009, 08:36:30 am
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^Jojo in a nutshell.
Re: The Best of the Fighting Crossovers
#5  August 18, 2009, 08:43:20 am
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Except Petshop, he's more broken than everyone else.
Re: The Best of the Fighting Crossovers
#6  August 18, 2009, 08:58:03 am
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And yet... It's hilarous how infinites that rely in Stand-off Install/Maha Tandem aren't banned.
Re: The Best of the Fighting Crossovers
#7  August 18, 2009, 10:03:58 am
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There are degrees of brokenness. Ivan Ooze is more broken than say XvSF Cyc. In XvSF certain characters have more easy ways to lead into mid screen infinites like wolverine.

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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#8  August 18, 2009, 10:40:12 am
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And yet... It's hilarous how infinites that rely in Stand-off Install/Maha Tandem aren't banned.
"Mahas" don't really add infinites to characters who wouldn't have them otherwise I think.  But anyway, there's some sort of etiquette rule where you can't use more than one Tandem in a row unless the first Stand Crushed, so I guess the infinites they cause are banned in a sense (or at least soft banned).
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#9  August 18, 2009, 10:58:36 am
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Correct, but Mahas lead to some unblockable setups... which lead to your generic combo into a YET another lenghty Tandem/infinite.

The Tandem limit is new to me though! I only knew of the extremely obvious Petshop ban.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#10  August 18, 2009, 11:11:13 am
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As much as any tandem, having the Stand do a low attack while you do an overhead (or vice-versa) doesn't require the install.  And there are already so many unblockable setups outside of tandems that one can't blame it on them.

In fact that's one of the things I love about JoJo, you're given two good mechanics to relieve block pressure (advancing guard and free guard cancels), but the attacker is also given such setups and a lot of mixup potential (KOF-style jumps + craziness) - to me it has just the right amount of brokeness. :laugh:
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Re: The Best of the Fighting Crossovers
#11  August 18, 2009, 03:01:21 pm
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There are degrees of brokenness. Ivan Ooze is more broken than say XvSF Cyc. In XvSF certain characters have more easy ways to lead into mid screen infinites like wolverine.
Speaking of XMvSF, you know how broken it is? The fucking AI did an infinite against me. And no, I couldn't get out of it, no matter how hard I tried.


Who was it? Ken.



What was it?



SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN SHORYUKEN
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#12  August 18, 2009, 03:29:06 pm
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Flowchart Ken must be canon.


In SF4 yes, but in XvSF the second Shoryuken still hits so you get stuck in a flowchart loop.
V
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#13  August 18, 2009, 03:30:13 pm
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No, flowchart Ken is shoryuken shoryuken jump back hadouken
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#14  August 18, 2009, 08:17:35 pm
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Shoryus leave you with techable frames. They're as easy to get out of as they are in MvC1 o.o

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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#15  August 18, 2009, 10:49:44 pm
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Akuma's LK Tatsumaki in XvSF does like 1/3 a bar LOL

Now THAT shit is broken.
you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#16  August 19, 2009, 12:25:01 am
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But it isn't as good as his crouch short as that leads into his crouch fierce for 28, 5jab, 5strong, 8roundhouse, \/, (8jab, 8roundhouse)xn for full health.

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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#17  August 19, 2009, 12:28:59 am
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Not all of us use that format for moves, jesus, it's like trying to decode hieroglyphics.
you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#18  August 19, 2009, 12:32:08 am
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what the hell did he say.

it's fucking worse than calculator motions (QCF IS 236, QCB IS 214, ETC.)

GT

Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#19  August 19, 2009, 12:36:17 am
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LOL
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#20  August 19, 2009, 12:54:09 am
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Any game where you need to use individual directions with a joystick for varied purposes works best with numbers whether it be GG, BB, or some versus games things.

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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#21  August 19, 2009, 05:18:19 am
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No, numbered commands are fucking retarded; don't use them.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#22  August 19, 2009, 06:24:19 am
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Judging by your avatar you play Blazblue, write out a BnB for Arakune with num commands, then write the same combo out for him with 'qcf etc' commands and you'll quickly see the point of using numbers. 'down left' being 1 ends up being a lot easier over all. As stated, the standard US QCFs and the like work well for certain games and are bulky/near useless for others. heck, even wolverine's basic infinite in XvSF.

QCF notation:
Dash forward, c.lp, c.lk, c.mp, down back RH.K, up forward Lp, neutral air lk, neutral air mp, Aerial down MK~neutral air FP~neutral air Rhk, (land, up lp, neutral air lk, neutral air mk, neutral air FP, neutral air RhK) repeat

vs.

Numpad notation:
661.lp, 1lk, 1mp, 1Rhk, 9lp, 5lk, 5mp, 2mk~5fp~5Rhk, (\/, 8lp, 5lk, 5mk, 5fp, 5rhk)xn


At least for me the secondary of these is far easier to understand, write, and use. If things you need to write consist of simple things like  j.fierce (where aerial direction doesn't matter) c.strong (where 1, 2, and 3 are all acceptable), c.forward (again where 1-3 are acceptable), QCF Fierce that's all good, it just loses more and more efficacy as things  become less reliant on vague information *like 1-3 acceptable.* and more reliant on precise directions to alter normals, effect spacing, etc.

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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#23  August 19, 2009, 06:42:18 am
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Yes, if you think numeric notation is bad, you just haven't stressed the other alternatives yet.
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#24  August 19, 2009, 07:57:09 am
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It's not an issue of convenience at all, it's an issue of universal readability. It's a forum, you take the time to spell correctly anyways, so why not just use something that can be understood by all? All the Spanish/Japanese/French speakers have to speak english outside of International after all, don't they?
you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#25  August 19, 2009, 09:10:05 am
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The only time numbers were okay for me in command notation was Tekken. And I would rather stick with QCF type commands.
Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.

MGF

Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#26  August 19, 2009, 11:45:00 am
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About cheapness, I just don't like sitting through infinites. Though, I guess the trick is to not get caught in them so easily.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#27  August 19, 2009, 02:47:54 pm
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#28  August 19, 2009, 02:53:45 pm
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#29  August 20, 2009, 12:48:48 am
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The midget in GGXX: Reload is somehow overpowerd if i remember correctly.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#30  August 20, 2009, 12:52:20 am
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Yeah, I think Kliff was banned in tourneys... I don't know why, though.
Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#31  August 20, 2009, 12:54:36 am
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Because of huge invincibility frames and his damage potential I think.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#32  August 20, 2009, 12:57:45 am
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However he's still fun to play even if his speed is illogical(midget + huge sword = fast attacks[WTF]).

Another cheap thingy was the 5th level of the GG:Boost-Mode from GGI. If you don't manage to warp to the ending of the stage(you have to warp in all levels that appear before, I guess[I forgot how to warp in the 1st one -.-]) the enemies will gangrape you to the extreme. --;
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#33  September 08, 2009, 04:49:26 pm
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Just one word for you.

Cable.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#34  September 08, 2009, 05:57:37 pm
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#35  September 08, 2009, 06:05:25 pm
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In team/tag games a single cheap character can be easily overcome by a cheap team. Take kofxi's duck king, he is top tier but not cheap by himself, but put him in a stun team and he will become as annoying as oswald.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#36  September 08, 2009, 06:56:15 pm
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Not all of us use that format for moves, jesus, it's like trying to decode hieroglyphics.

Judging by your avatar you play Blazblue, write out a BnB for Arakune with num commands, then write the same combo out for him with 'qcf etc' commands and you'll quickly see the point of using numbers. 'down left' being 1 ends up being a lot easier over all. As stated, the standard US QCFs and the like work well for certain games and are bulky/near useless for others. heck, even wolverine's basic infinite in XvSF.

QCF notation:
Dash forward, c.lp, c.lk, c.mp, down back RH.K, up forward Lp, neutral air lk, neutral air mp, Aerial down MK~neutral air FP~neutral air Rhk, (land, up lp, neutral air lk, neutral air mk, neutral air FP, neutral air RhK) repeat

vs.

Numpad notation:


 :S
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#37  September 08, 2009, 09:50:32 pm
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Wait, people use "neutral" in commands other than Tekken? And even then there is a symbol for Neutral.

I'm half convinced he purposely lengthened the "normal way" to prove a point.
Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#38  September 08, 2009, 11:11:37 pm
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In the end it doesn't matter because you're all passing judgment on something you don't use. :P
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#39  September 08, 2009, 11:16:51 pm
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I don't use that other method because I like QCF styled commands better. That other method is kinda annoying to me.

I gave it a chance.
Quote
Imagine a zanguief runing to attack ryu, ryu does a quick+kind of weak fast punch and hit the chest of zanguief, will this punch be enough to zanguief say/think \"oh no, this punch hurted a little, I better stop the attack and put my hand on my chest to help contain the pain while ignoring if ryu is going to make other attacks now"


Cenobite 53 said:
If someone isn't able to get girls laid, why buying this exorcist needing piece of retardet piece of bullshit an not wisiting his local red light district. For that money he could  :hump: tons of hookers.
Re: The Best of the Fighting Crossovers
#40  September 10, 2009, 08:05:25 am
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i think we should call it an "engine" so we don't look like total idiots because otherwise we'd be arguing about a "game" and that would be somehow "dumber" than arguing about an "engine" on the "internet" for countless hours

Iced said:
I for one, do not enjoy round corners!  :bigcry:
But they hurt much less when we accidentally hit them!  :S
Re: The Best of the Fighting Crossovers
#41  September 10, 2009, 12:25:41 pm
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#42  September 10, 2009, 06:02:45 pm
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#43  September 14, 2009, 12:41:39 pm
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SC4 + Ivy + Infinity = lol cheap bitch
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#44  September 25, 2009, 03:57:24 am
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Cheapness is a poison in most Japanese games, like i.e. Johann in ROTD. He spams the same attacks in a cycle, first his "'nado spam" (which in this game is an energy slash), then he'll kick you some times, and then, "BIG FINISHA!!!" (that "Dragon Dome-Wave"), which takes HALF OF YOUR LIFE BAR AWAY. Most of the characters in this game will kick your ass if you don't apply heavy team-work, using team combos and DMs to your fullest advantage, but this guy takes the cake.

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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#45  September 25, 2009, 04:00:36 am
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Yeah, but most of that is because Johann is a boss character. Most of them are meant to be cheap.
Yeah Titiln, in fact, You Made Him
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#46  September 27, 2009, 02:42:06 pm
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^ yup. BTW I forgot about sentinel lol
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#47  November 08, 2009, 06:02:05 am
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X-Men: Next Dimension
The time-limits against the robots are fucking cheap. As much as I remember they were like 30-60 seconds and it wasn't possible to win with a time-victory. That means you have to play like a god, which is difficult because the game was poorly programmed.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#48  November 08, 2009, 08:20:20 am
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#49  November 08, 2009, 01:09:11 pm
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Devil Jin and his lazor :P
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#50  November 27, 2009, 12:41:20 am
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If he's played by a human. Also the special versions of Sol and Ky with their "always full" special meters.  --;
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#51  December 09, 2009, 09:18:03 am
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grapplers from KOF are cheap. I can understand with goro being big and slow and typical grapple trait, but, small guys like ramon, or blue mary .... I hate them. they all actively dash themselves forward and grab with a faster speed than normal, greater priority than normal, greater damage than normal, many of some can attack grounded opponent as well,
on the otherhand the projectiles there is not that awesome, they can easily rolled in dash and grab.
resulted in a battle of countless rolls instead of real fighting.

I prefer capcom's you hit me some, I hit you some, lets see who'll stand at the end.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#52  December 09, 2009, 09:49:51 am
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not really, I used to think that way too until I got better at KoF.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#53  December 09, 2009, 04:03:54 pm
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I never get better in KOF...
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#54  December 28, 2009, 09:21:11 am
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#55  December 29, 2009, 06:11:06 pm
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#56  December 29, 2009, 09:16:39 pm
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i cant count the reasons i should stay

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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#57  January 03, 2010, 11:49:53 am
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"Boss" Order Sol. Man that guy is the soul of cheapness.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#58  January 03, 2010, 01:04:22 pm
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#59  January 03, 2010, 01:22:33 pm
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#60  January 03, 2010, 08:45:06 pm
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SvC Guile could combo booms infinitely in the corner, but over all he wasn't even the best character in the game.

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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#61  January 03, 2010, 09:14:06 pm
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SvC Guile could combo booms infinitely in the corner, but over all he wasn't even the best character in the game.
Hahaha. I really need to look at some SvC tournament matches and see people breaking it apart.
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#62  January 04, 2010, 12:07:19 am
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#63  January 04, 2010, 12:31:48 am
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I don't think there's many SvC tournaments anymore, mostly because the game is widely considered as a pathetic joke of a fighter nowadays, really only fit for casual play.
you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#64  January 04, 2010, 12:38:34 am
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Though you must admit, it had the most over the top anouncer, even beating out alpha 3 "Here comes a new Challengua!"

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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#65  January 04, 2010, 02:47:20 am
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From the sound of things, it looks as if there are many ways to break a game. Also, never play a crossover made by SNK.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#66  January 04, 2010, 02:48:18 am
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Fuck you, MOTM owns all other crossovers.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#67  January 04, 2010, 04:40:53 am
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its not a crossover however
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#68  January 04, 2010, 04:56:40 am
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Match of the Millenium != Mark of the Wolves
That’s when I thought, “good grief”
Just ain’t my belief
Until I saw the holes
Inside his hand
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#69  January 04, 2010, 05:33:31 am
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That be CvS1 right? And Millionaire fighting 2k1  is CvS2?

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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#70  January 04, 2010, 05:53:58 am
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No, SvC MOTM is the first game of the crossover series made by snk before the first CVS.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#71  January 04, 2010, 07:07:15 am
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If it's any compensation, I really liked a lot of the Capcom characters' sprite work in SvC.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#72  January 04, 2010, 09:56:22 am
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you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#73  January 11, 2010, 04:34:10 pm
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lol no one has ever mentioned Brawl here XD

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Jablock, Laser Lock

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Chaingrab and CG Infinite on wall

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Metaknightness

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Deal With It
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#74  January 13, 2010, 03:36:51 pm
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Brawl's fun...but leans more of a casual thing than a fighter IMO.

Anyway, one of the cheapst I know of is petshop's combo from JJBA. Trap, ice rape, then more ice rape, trap again, ice rape.


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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#75  January 13, 2010, 09:29:19 pm
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Can be blocked low and takes 3 gauges. Real reason birds only loses to 2 characters or so is: 1 he doesn't need to block low, 2 he can fly out of range for a lot of characters to hit him and play run away/spike games kind of like a small screened Storm, 3 some ZOMG incredible pokes/screen control moves.

I have many names, 
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#76  January 14, 2010, 01:47:28 pm
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Deal With It
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#77  January 14, 2010, 04:00:26 pm
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For me, meh. I mostly see move spam and ring out, tis a pattern.

so no, not impressed. If I see an epic fight...yeah I'll be impressed.


I made this sig. :ninja:

Props to a friend for my avvie
Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 04:09:06 pm by ecthelionv2@hotmail.com
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#78  January 15, 2010, 08:44:31 pm
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I will not give you whatever time you wasted reading this back.
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#79  January 15, 2010, 11:05:31 pm
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#80  January 15, 2010, 11:55:33 pm
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I made this sig. :ninja:

Props to a friend for my avvie
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#81  January 16, 2010, 12:17:52 am
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In every Super Smash brothers game I played unless it was set to some kind of stamina mode ring out was the only way to score a kill. You're likely trolling, but this post is in case you're mistaken instead. *Bites the hook.*

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mugenxero.deviantart.com = Me
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#82  January 16, 2010, 12:51:13 am
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They just look like they get ringed out coz they involve some animation that sends them out of the ring in a Hillarious manner when you KO them normally...preferably with a baseball bat or hammer.


I made this sig. :ninja:

Props to a friend for my avvie
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#83  January 16, 2010, 01:47:36 am
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Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#84  January 16, 2010, 04:36:54 am
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Eh, Alice seems more annoying than Azazel <_<;;

About brawl, it's a combo video, an epic fight would need an epic ko, yet it would take a milllion tries to do so,
btw, that isn't the standard brawl, it's for tournament use with hacked physics plus no one in the right mind would use items for competitive play. The ko's are in form of either gimping and smashing, wherein gimping, is where you knock your opponent out and stop his attempt to recover where smashing is a form of building up percentages where in after being punished enough at a high percent, one smash move will be able to send the opponent to the Blast zone.

I also remember the brawl community is developing a Street Fighter Brawl modification in the workshop, go check it out if you want =D
Deal With It
Re: "Cheapness" in fighting games
#85  January 16, 2010, 07:51:33 pm
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They just look like they get ringed out coz they involve some animation that sends them out of the ring in a Hillarious manner when you KO them normally...preferably with a baseball bat or hammer.

In Smash there is no health count by default, you have damage percentage up to 999%, though 100% is usually enough to score a kill. As your damage count gets higher, the knockback you get when you are hit increases, and when you have accumulated enough damage a strong attack will send you flying off the stage. So the flying out of the ring is not an animation to make KOs funny, it's the actual knockback working its magic.
I will not give you whatever time you wasted reading this back.