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Anita Sarkeesian Variety hour! (Read 284854 times)

Started by Iced, March 09, 2013, 06:48:21 pm
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Re: Feminist study of games
#61  March 10, 2013, 06:26:07 am
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Oh so they're independent from the game industry too?

Did I say that? No. Are you ignoring my valid point and trying to attack me instead? Yes.

I don't know why you keep bringing up Tomb Raider: The Game, because I have been talking about Tomb Raider: The Marketing Experience. As an example of the way the game industry sometimes treats women badly. That's literally it.

Because, for the nth time, the marketing industry is not the gaming industry. Just like the backpack industry is not the gaming industry.

You keep using that and you should probably ease up on it, so when you encounter someone who is actually backpedaling, it will have more impact.

Oh, hey, an empty retort that ignores me pointing out exactly where and how you backpedalled and why I am calling you out on it.

This whole topic is about harmful stereotypes; it's about gender stereotypes in games! What else would I possibly have been referring to?

Stereotypes are by definition harmful. And one doesn't really need to study anything to see that the game industry doesn't exactly have a sterling record with women (in recent years there has been the rape caves in Duke Nukem Forever, and the PR fiasco of Tomb Raider)

Gender stereotypes in games are not always negative or harmful. That is what many of my posts in this topic have been about! You're wrong, I've pointed out clearly and repeatedly how you're wrong, stop squirming. I would not be talking about this if you did not begin by saying something wrong that you are trying to pretend you didn't say.

So you wanted me to say that stereotypes are not what you think stereotypes are, which isn't actually the definition of stereotypes, because stereotypes are not based on facts, but rather beliefs? OK, well have fun with all that. :|

Beliefs... are typically... based... on... facts...

EDIT: Ugh is it just me or am I starting to sound like hjk. Fuck it I'm out.
Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 06:56:22 am by Snakebyte
Re: Feminist study of games
#62  March 10, 2013, 07:26:18 am
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Did I say that? No. Are you ignoring my valid point and trying to attack me instead? Yes.
How is that an attack? It is very much a valid point, you keep trying to dismiss the whole Tomb Raider PR thing. I have said from the start that isn't connected with the game itself, but was symptomatic of a larger problem the industry has. You have continued to try and make an exception out of it, and so I'm giving examples of why it can't be isolated. This latest one is that the publishers are part of the game industry. They approved the marketing campaign. That means the Tomb Raider PR thing is linked to the game industry.

Because, for the nth time, the marketing industry is not the gaming industry. Just like the backpack industry is not the gaming industry.
IT IS PART OF THE GAME INDUSTRY
Marketing for games is by definition part of the game industry. How can it not be?

Oh, hey, an empty retort that ignores me pointing out exactly where and how you backpedalled and why I am calling you out on it.
I already addressed it. I have been talking about gender stereotypes from the very start, it's what this thread is about. It's not about cat stereotypes or redneck stereotypes: it's about a very specific subset of stereotypes that are harmful because they make objects out of women, that reduce them into easily digestible buzzwords. That's never going to be not a bad thing. I have been talking about this subset and only this subset the entire time, perhaps I was unclear, but I thought it was obvious.

Beliefs... are typically... based... on... facts...
And sometimes they're not. But that doesn't really have anything to do with anything, because the definition of a stereotype is a thought or way of thinking that applies to specific types of people that may or may not reflect reality. There is no required factual component.
Re: Feminist study of games
#63  March 10, 2013, 07:32:02 am
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People who get mad at the new Tomb Raider because it has attempted rape and gory death scenes wouldn't give half a shit if Lara was a man.  Absolute fact.
Re: Feminist study of games
#64  March 10, 2013, 07:32:58 am
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People who get mad at the new Tomb Raider because it has attempted rape and gory death scenes wouldn't give half a shit if Lara was a man.  Absolute fact.
No one was talking about the actual game, though. :P
Re: Feminist study of games
#65  March 10, 2013, 07:48:59 am
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K I'm gonna try this again but calmer because I still have things I want to say.

I think 'sexism in the gaming industry', or whatever you call it, should only be relevant in two areas.

- Whether women are being discriminated against in the workplace or not hired, like any industry, and;
- Whether the games themselves are sexist or discriminatory.

As we're talking about problems in the fictional medium and not problems in the workplace, the only really relevant people to discuss should be the people making the game, such as Team Ninja, who I agree are really awful about it. Whether publishers or marketers or whatever slant things seems to me to be of greatly lessened importance than the content of the games themselves. A shitty publisher (whose main purposes are to handle marketing, funding, and distribution) hiring a shitty marketer for a shitty marketing campaign is far different from creating a product that is inherently bigoted or harmful.

Furthermore, I think I've said this a thousand times already, marketing firms are marketing firms and handle all sorts of things, not just games, so problems with marketing are not problems that are limited to any specific medium. How have I failed to express this? I've tried the metaphor thing already. I don't know how to express this any more clearly than I already have. Marketing is its own, separate, industry. You hire the same people with the same biases that you do for, I don't know, Easy Bake Ovens and Ocean's 14, so using that to say bad things about gaming is unfair.

I've quoted you like three times saying 'STEREOTYPES ARE BY DEFINITION HARMFUL.' Did you just skim over that part? It's what you said, bro. You misspoke. Stop trying to make out like you were obviously right all along and I'm just misunderstanding you. I admit it when I phrase something poorly or my mind blanks out for a minute and I type the wrong thing, and it aggravates me when other people don't. If you didn't say 'STEREOTYPES ARE BY DEFINITION HARMFUL', why would I be arguing that some stereotypes aren't harmful? You then said something like all stereotypes are harmful and by stereotypes i mean harmful stereotypes and just COME ON MAN. Come on.
Re: Feminist study of games
#66  March 10, 2013, 08:04:24 am
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As we're talking about problems in the fictional medium and not problems in the workplace, the only really relevant people to discuss should be the people making the game, such as Team Ninja, who I agree are really awful about it.
Well, I disagree. The "gaming industry" doesn't just mean the games themselves, it is comprised everyone involved with making the game. Publishers, developers, and yes, even marketers. But I don't think we're gonna go anywhere with this. :-\

Marketing is its own, separate, industry. You hire the same people with the same biases that you do for, I don't know, Easy Bake Ovens and Ocean's 14, so using that to say bad things about gaming is unfair.
I used it as an example of the problems the gaming industry has with women. Whether the marketing was done by an outside firm or not is completely irrelevant. It was approved by the publishers, it's advertising a game, etc.

Gaming marketing falls under the umbrella of the game industry; of course, it is also connected to the marketing industry as a whole, but it's not an either/or situation. At this point, this is all semantics.

I've quoted you like three times saying 'STEREOTYPES ARE BY DEFINITION HARMFUL.' Did you just skim over that part?
Yep, I did. I remember, don't worry. And gender stereotypes are harmful. So are racist stereotypes. In fact, stereotypes in general are pretty harmful because they reduce a person into a phrase. Those kinds of stereotypes are bad. As for stereotypes about cats? I dunno, who gives a shit, they're not people; I haven't been talking about cat stereotypes. I've been talking about gender ones this entire time. I didn't misspeak. I said what I mean, and I stand by it: stereotypes are by definition harmful because they take away someone's very personhood.
Re: Feminist study of games
#67  March 10, 2013, 08:20:59 am
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I agree, that's why I didn't use the phrase 'gaming industry' in the first part. My point was that the developers are the most important part of the gaming industry for the purposes of this argument, because they are the ones actually creating the product, and giving it whatever messages it has or doesn't have. Anything else is window dressing. And a game with, I don't know, an oversexualized woman on the cover, is much less harmful than a game with a rape cave.

Holy crap you just don't stop wiggling do you? Yet another completely new revision to avoid having possibly said something wrong? You've already gone down this road and maximillianjesus has already proven you wrong. The stereotype of the buff man and the lithe and agile female is very common in games. That is a gender stereotype. You have already said that is not harmful. Same with my example of the stay-at-home mom. That is one of the better examples of gender stereotypes that you will find, but according to you, both of those aren't stereotypes, because they aren't harmful. You're either not using language right or you're being incredibly duplicitous.

EDIT: Never mind, I did use the phrase 'gaming industry' in the first part there. I am clearly a moron.
Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 08:34:17 am by Snakebyte
Re: Feminist study of games
#68  March 10, 2013, 08:39:24 am
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I agree, that's why I didn't use the phrase 'gaming industry' in the first part.
Well, I did. That's why I keep bringing it up because it's what I've been talking about all along. :P

Yet another completely new revision to avoid having possibly said something wrong? You've already gone down this road and maximillianjesus has already proven you wrong.
I'm saying the same exact things I have been saying all along. And yes, [E] sure proved me wrong with his made-up definition of stereotypes!

The stereotype of the buff man and the lithe and agile female is very common in games. That is a gender stereotype. You have already said that is not harmful.
Uh, no, I didn't. I said stereotypes about cats are not harmful. Because they're fucking cats.

Same with my example of the stay-at-home mom.
That's not a stereotype, that's statistics. I said that the last time. A stereotype would be more like "wimpy stay-at-home dad" or "June Cleaver-esque stay-at-home-mom or something: a phrase that connotates certain things about a person. This is by nature reductive, and harmful.

That is one of the better examples of gender stereotypes that you will find, but according to you, both of those aren't stereotypes, because they aren't harmful. You're either not using language right or you're being incredibly duplicitous.
The "buff man, agile women" thing are more so character archetypes, but they're stereotypes too, I guess, in certain circumstances. And in those circumstances they reduce a person. They're harmful.

But in the end, this entire stereotype conversation isn't really pertinent to the topic at hand.
Re: Feminist study of games
#69  March 10, 2013, 08:51:25 am
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Okay, I'm going to go with 'not using language right' instead of 'incredibly duplicitous'.

So you think that the stereotype that females are muscularly weaker than men is harmful ?
That's not a stereotype, that's human anatomy. :pwn:

It was right here.

Is the stereotype that females are typically the stay-at-home parent harmful?
No, because that ain't a stereotype.

And right here.

(I messed up which one it was that you said wasn't harmful).

I have a dictionary application in my taskbar. It says:

Noun: stereotype
1. a conventional or formulaic conception or image
"regional stereotypes have been part of America since its founding"
2. an irrelevant definition about printing press parts I am too lazy to copy properly.

You're using 'stereotype' like 'harmful stereotype' is redundant, and it really isn't.

EDIT: Also I like most cats a lot more than I like most people. Why so mean? :(
Re: Feminist study of games
#70  March 10, 2013, 09:05:35 am
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Cats are fine, but they're not people. They're like 3/5ths of a person, tops.
...
OK that's definitely a sign that it's time for sleep.
Re: Feminist study of games
#71  March 10, 2013, 09:37:39 am
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Yes, and as such, can only piss me off 3/5th as much! :D

Though I guess they can piss on me that much more...

WHY AM I TYPING THIS GOOD NIGHT
Re: Feminist study of games
#72  March 10, 2013, 10:26:31 am
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Stereotypes about cats and shit are completely irrelevant because cats are dissociated from the importance that humans hold or should hold toward one another. I can't believe someone is defending stereotypes and comparing it to the traits of very basic animals who aren't even infinitesimally close to the complexity of a human being -- especially when it comes to those complex behaviors and thought patterns derived from socialization.

Sure, we are not more important than other animals in so much as that we are all alive and we all live our lives and die on the same planet and need about the same things to survive, but contextually, other humans matter more to other humans. Racism and misogyny against cats don't exist, not even amongst cats themselves, and there aren't many people who have unbridled hate toward cats and want to rape and kill them simply because of something as silly as the color of their hair, or because they deserve to be killed for being attractive or for being stupid. Who told her to be a woman? She needs to be raped for being a woman! It's her fault! This is how some rapists think. Others want to rape and kill women because women represent weakness, or because their screams of pain are so sexy. Tons of reason for rape, but there's a huge problem when rape is mostly done by men who desire women victims. I can't see how anyone could say there isn't a problem and that a game that incorporates rape as a sort of casual existence is not a product of the aforementioned problem.

Anyway, that unbridled hate mentioned above all begins with these basic things of the cultures of the world, especially the young who are influenced by videos games and such; not saying that a video game will make someone become a rapist, but it's an addition to the rest of a culture that objectifies and infantilizes women. From ads that synonymize women with objects used to make wildest dreams come true, to the sizes of women clothing that don't match any known standard of measurement that tell women to be small and not take up too much space (seriously, who wears a size 0?); from making women focus more on their appearance, rather than on things that really matter, to over-sexualizing women, but, at the same time, telling them not to be sexual at all or else be stained for life with slutness.

Even if she talks about those other games that portray women as the main protagonist that is capable, that doesn't matter because the opposite still exists, and the opposite represents an ACTUAL problem within our cultures. Like she said in her video, it's okay to enjoy any type of media, as long as you are aware of the problems that they represent. So there's nothing wrong with damsel in distress inherently, but when placed into the context of our time -- yes, there is something off about it being the main theme of hundreds, if not thousands, of video games that hundreds of thousands (mostly male) people play.

On the other hand, a decent researcher researches all sides of a problem and presents all the facts from each side. With all facts presented, a decent researcher explains all the facts, and in doing so, explains why the facts that don't matter don't actually matter. So, it would be a good idea for her to talk about some of those games that supposedly disprove her point, but this is part one, so it's probably too early to say.
Re: Feminist study of games
#73  March 10, 2013, 04:14:18 pm
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Sexism in games happens, it also happens in movies and comics.  Its a bad step in bad writing, you get shitty writers and you get sexism. racism, and a myriad of other themes that arent approached correctly.
To pick up Mario and Zelda as examples of it is weird imo, they are basic games that follow fairytale themes, with princesses being kidnapped, they arent good demonstrations of sexism specially when the narrator ignores all the changes in the same games, focusing only on what proves her point " HEy guys mario and zelda are implying women need to be rescued". It demonstrates a lack of understanding of the narrative genre.  It also pretends that the outliers do not exist. This might change in future episodes, I hope it does, but I am not holding my breath for it after the characterization given in this one.

Its easy to accuse anything of being sexist, by focusing on a very limited example, you can do it to spider-man, superman, even sonic and the teletubbies if you try hard enough. So far her demonstrations ignored the evolutions inside the same game series that went against those norms.


Also, equality for cats and other animals is actually a form of ethical phlosophy that got advanced by Peter Singer in the nineties. So, yes, there are people out there that would get offended at your stereotypical portrayal of nonhuman animals.
Re: Feminist study of games
#74  March 10, 2013, 04:25:22 pm
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I know I am going to get alot of shit for his but I don't think that feminism =/= equality.

It took that stance back in the day and currently it is in the form of feminism lite (sex positive feminism) and what has turned into "regular" feminism (i guess sex negative feminism). Even the name implies female sexuality. I'm really surprised that society hasn't made a definition for people like me either than Humanist. Because I don't think it represents equal rights. Feminism back then used to be about promoting female rights while preserving the standards of how we operate as a society. Currently it involves dropping standards to satisfy a quota or else funding gets cut by a percentage.

Personally as a guy I'm really tired of feminists today behaving like the top dog and jumping into victim mode at the tip of the hat. I would really like to see more equality driven feminists like Bea. Maybe the world would be a better place. I'm just surprised that there aren't women insulted about being treated inferior because they are seen as less than men. If I was a police officer and if the department were to drop their standards on my behalf I would feel like there is no reason for me to be there either than to help the department get extra funding for hiring me. I respected feminism back then when women wanted a shot at happiness and proved it with their work. Now, it is nothing more than a bunch of women calling foul on frivolous issues.

I really hope that equality prevails but if this keeps up you'll see more MRAs and we will have the same that is going now but man flavored. You already have female MRAs and the same Marxist bullshit will happen. Apparently neither men nor women fully understood the point that Orwell's Animal Farm was making.
Re: Feminist study of games
#75  March 10, 2013, 05:31:57 pm
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The only thing I gotta say is that Resident Evil is a series that pretty much defines gender equality. Nearly every game in the main series either stars or co-stars(with equal importance) women that are as equal or superior to their male counterparts.
Jill is less resistant to damage than Chris and needs Barry to protect her. And canonically she spent the night in a cell while Chris explored the mansion. Very sexist.
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Re: Feminist study of games
#76  March 10, 2013, 05:37:03 pm
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yeah, and it makes sense that she takes less damage than chris since she is fa rless muscular than him; if chris was a skinny bishounen and jill was someone like angela belty the opossite should be true.
Re: Feminist study of games
#77  March 10, 2013, 05:49:43 pm
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specially when the narrator ignores all the changes in the same games
She ignored some but mentioned others. She could go more indepth with it but on the other hand that would probably take up the entire episode's runtime. I dunno, maybe the first video should've focused only on Mario and Zelda?

focusing only on what proves her point " HEy guys mario and zelda are implying women need to be rescued". It demonstrates a lack of understanding of the narrative genre.  It also pretends that the outliers do not exist.
I think you have a lack of understanding of what she's saying. She didn't say that first thing, she obviously understands the narrative, and she mentioned outliers but didn't delve into them (hopefully that will be next episode)

Also, equality for cats and other animals is actually a form of ethical phlosophy that got advanced by Peter Singer in the nineties. So, yes, there are people out there that would get offended at your stereotypical portrayal of nonhuman animals.
Oh, ugh. Peter Singer is the worst. :noo:

I know I am going to get alot of shit for his but I don't think that feminism =/= equality.
OK, well I can say that racism is about loving people but that doesn't really make it true. Because words mean things, and one can't go around changing the definition of them out of some misguided view that all feminists are man-hating bra burners.

Jill is less resistant to damage than Chris and needs Barry to protect her. And canonically she spent the night in a cell while Chris explored the mansion. Very sexist.
But Jill can also hold more items, use the grenade launcher, and is skilled enough to use a lockpick to open doors while Chris is stuck lugging small keys around. And Chris needs Rebecca to protect him just as much as Jill does, i.e.: depending on what you do, Chris or Jill may be incapacitated and require aid from Rebecca and Barry.

Also the canon scenario involved both Chris and Jill running around the mansion, with the two of them, as well as Rebecca and Barry, escaping to safety. It is likely that Jill confronted Wesker in the lab and fought the Tyrant the first time, and Chris killed the Tyrant with the rocket launcher in the last fight.
Re: Feminist study of games
#78  March 10, 2013, 07:48:31 pm
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Jokes on us.  Look at that free pile of games.
Re: Feminist study of games
#79  March 10, 2013, 08:43:29 pm
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Well, it's your fault for donating.

the truth is her thesis is how easy it is to scam people if you raise money to prove their agenda.
Re: Feminist study of games
#80  March 10, 2013, 08:51:24 pm
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Why did she not just watch gameplay of cutscenes off the internet? Buying those games was never needed.
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