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The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: Justice for Floyd edition (Read 651492 times)

Started by Ricepigeon, March 22, 2017, 08:42:19 pm
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Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#641  September 26, 2017, 04:28:21 am
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You know, all that high-minded faux intellectualism you seem so proud of really rings as being disingenuous when you're freely admitting that you form your political opinions through dank memes and petty contrarianism.

Don't worry, Person Man, there's nothing that could be more disingenuous than your posts about me.
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#642  September 26, 2017, 06:32:38 am
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I've heard the propaganda stories about Media Matters and that's true... Remember, it was created by a good friend of Hillary's. I see them as a watchdog group that has done it's fair share of propaganda. Kind of have to do that to survive in the world of the internet these days. To be honest with you, Snakebyte... I trust local news far more then national news. At least the local stories are legit.

As for your other point: You know, I could be extremely wrong. I could be... but what about you? You could be wrong as well man.
Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 03:45:14 pm by Seadragon77
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#643  September 26, 2017, 01:52:58 pm
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Local news is probably a good call. And of course I could be wrong, that's why I try to have discussions with people with opposing views as often as possible, so I can hear their ideas and give them a chance to counter mine and change my views. Often they do.

The quickest way to be right is to be wrong in public often enough that people call you on your bullshit in a way that you find convincing.
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#644  September 26, 2017, 03:07:48 pm
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Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#645  September 26, 2017, 03:57:16 pm
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Yeah, I caught the grammatical error and fixed it.

Anyhow, I feel it's hard to have a decent conversation with someone who is on the right wing because more often then not, they start with mud slinging. How am I supposed to have a decent conversation when your first instinct is to attack? That makes it hard on my end to do anything other then attack.

Look at the pissing matches between you and Byakko, Snakebyte. Neither one of you guys budged from your views and it made the conversation into a volley of shots. It didn't sink to the level of mud slinging, but it was shown that when neither side can budge, no one wins.
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#646  September 26, 2017, 07:22:40 pm
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Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#647  September 26, 2017, 09:43:59 pm
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Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#648  September 26, 2017, 11:53:20 pm
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Yeah, I caught the grammatical error and fixed it.

Anyhow, I feel it's hard to have a decent conversation with someone who is on the right wing because more often then not, they start with mud slinging. How am I supposed to have a decent conversation when your first instinct is to attack? That makes it hard on my end to do anything other then attack.

Look at the pissing matches between you and Byakko, Snakebyte. Neither one of you guys budged from your views and it made the conversation into a volley of shots. It didn't sink to the level of mud slinging, but it was shown that when neither side can budge, no one wins.

So do the left. You literally do this in this thread. Your first instinct is to attack.

The 'conversation' with Byakko wasn't about views, it was about facts. He said something I knew to be false, he refused to attempt to prove it was true, and insulted me rather than attempt to prove it was true. If he had proved it was true I would have to accept that or I would be in the wrong.

There's a big difference between facts and opinions. I don't care what opinions people hold for the most part. I have a big problem with spreading political lies. Think whatever you like about the truth, but deal with the damn truth.

edit: The big issue with Trump is people constantly lie to convince others that he is Satan, instead of accurately telling people why they think he's Satan and letting them decide whether that's Satan-worthy or not.

Jmorphman, for example, has done a really good job of explaining the shit he doesn't like without lying to make others more sympathetic to his position. I don't agree with all of his reasons for hating Trump, but I agree that his reasons are based on things that are true. I just don't care or react to them differently. And that's totally fine. And if that's all everyone did that my life would be so much happier.

edit2: Also the ACA is hot garbage, can you guys just go single-payer already like every other civilized nation? :/
Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 12:00:23 am by Snakebyte
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#649  September 27, 2017, 03:37:03 am
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I understand, man. I would be more then happy to tone down the rhetoric so this way I don't get myself into hot water because of my anger.

Now, since you want someone to give you an idea of what a person thinks of Trump... I think it's fair that I should give my view and then you can decide from there.

To me, he's not Satan... far from it. To me, he's getting into something he really he has no knowledge of. This is a guy who has had no political position in his life... not even a local position anywhere. Being President is, to me, the highest job anyone can have in a political sense. Yet, here's this man who has no knowledge of the position coming in and he took advantage of the environment of the time: a heavily divided nation that saw the current President as either a hero or a fraud. He stood with, and even championed, the idea that he was a fraud. If there was one thing he had, it was charisma. Think back to the Jesse Ventura and Arnold Schwarzenegger, former entertainers who became Governors. Because of their past work, charisma was something they had in spades. Trump did as well.

Another thing to think about is that he was immune to whatever errors he made the entire way. I've coined this the 'Doomsday Syndrome'. Much like the DC character, Trump seemed to be immune to the errors he made and there were many. Even a quarter of what he did would of knocked out any other candidate. Not him... Not Trump.
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#650  September 27, 2017, 05:09:52 am
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I don't disagree with any of that, and I think most of his supporters would agree with most if not all of what you just said. This is what I was trying to get at, that we can see the same thing and make radically different judgements because of our values or because of other things we know (or think we know).

Trump is absolutely inexperienced. As a President, he's been somewhat disappointing. He was never all that prepared to actually do the job. I don't think he's hopeless at it, I think he has some experience that crosses over and I think he'll keep improving with time, but there are some things that were complete fuck-ups. Look at the roll-out of the travel ban, that was one of the biggest political clusterfucks I've ever seen. Regardless of what you think of the ban itself, his original execution of it was fucking terrible.

But the thing you're missing is that he won because this was seen as a good thing. Trump's base views politicians, establishment Republicans included, as incredibly corrupt. They view Trump very differently, and to be honest I don't consider Trump much of a Republican--center-right, sure, but his politics are pretty damn different from people like McCain, or even like Pence. Throughout the election, Hillary was revealed to be very corrupt by Wikileaks and other sources, and even without those leaks she always came across as very fake and rehearsed. The #1 complaint about her was that she wasn't genuine. Trump was genuine. Trump was so much of an outsider that people believed he was free of the corrupting influences that they saw Hillary as embodying. It was a huge selling point for him, and he spun it the same way Bernie spun his record as an independent.

As far as being immune to scandals, it's because he represented a rejection of that kind of thinking. People didn't want Trump to be rehearsed and moral, they wanted him to be straight with them. They wanted him to speak his mind. And yes, that's kind of a license to be inflammatory and stupid, but it also means you know what's in the guy's heart. You might not LIKE it, but you know you're probably not being lied to. Trump is incredibly genuine, to a fault, to the point of fighting dumb battles on Twitter and turning a certain group of people off with his bluntness and lack of dignity.

I don't care if people say dumb shit. I don't think people's ability to run a country should be determined by whether or not they say dumb shit. I don't support that kind of 'pretend to be a perfect morally upstanding man in public and condemn everything even though we know you do it too' crap. It's fake, and it's an excuse for society to tear down people they don't like for other reasons. Trump won the presidency because he really connected with people, and dropping that fake PR crap was one of the biggest ways he did so.

For a lot of people, the question wasn't 'Do I want a disgusting sexist bigot whatever to run the country?', it was 'Do I want someone I trust to be straight with me and to represent my interests to run the country, or should I disqualify him because he said a dumb thing that, cutting the crap and being honest, I can somewhat understand and not overreact to?'

A lot of it is virtue-signalling, and a lot of people are fed up with crap like that.

Additionally, and this really has to be said, Trump was fucking brilliant at being a presidential candidate. Not a president itself, but I have never seen anyone run circles around the media and his opponents as well as Trump did. He discarded conventional wisdom in so many ways and he was completely right far more often than not. Hillary outspent him by a whole fuck of a lot, I think it was 15-1 at one point but he spent more towards the end, and still lost. The man is a marketing genius. He connected with people that write off politicians as a whole and got them mobilized to vote for him. That's why the polls were so off, btw--it isn't conspiracy bullshit, most polls only take into account the opinions of 'likely voters', which as I understand it is people who voted in the last election, possibly a few other factors too. Trump mobilized a ton of unlikely voters, and the polls didn't have a way to model that.

The last piece that needs saying is that a lot of people supported Trump because of who opposed Trump, and I count myself in with that. I hadn't seen anyone receive the level of hate and lies that Trump got, ever (there's been a few since that got it worse, Bannon for example). The media was against him. His party was against him. The other party was against him. Hollywood was against him. It felt like everyone who held any kind of power in the US was collaborating to try to take him down, and if you were already motivated by the 'fuck the 1%' type shit that a lot of people are, this makes Trump seem a lot more trustworthy. If this many people are trying this hard to take him down by any means necessary... clearly he's a threat to them. If you see them as a threat to YOU, he suddenly becomes your guy, especially as he made 'draining the swamp' part of his platform.

I'm not going to go that far, I'm not rabidly anti-government or anti-rich-person, but as long as the anti-Trump hysteria is in full swing, I feel kind of obligated to support the guy. He's not perfect, there's plenty to criticize about him (especially as president vs as candidate), but he's not a racist sexist bigot fascist white supremacist Russian spy who's going to nuke countries for fun. To take just one issue, I don't feel super strongly about immigration, but I feel like it's very wrong to call people racist for wanting less of it. There are valid reasons to want that, regardless of if you agree with them or not, and people should be allowed to take that position without having their moral character attacked. I feel like wanting to stop illegal immigration should be a pretty straightforward, non-partisan issue and it still blows me away that that's not true in the US, that it's somehow a moral good when the law is broken. but that's a bit besides the point. There are a lot of issues like this, where there are perfectly acceptable opinions that society doesn't let you hold without lying about who you are and what you stand for. Trump is a symbol against that shit. Not a symbol for racism--yes, racists exist, racists like some of the same thing he likes but for different reasons, but they're going to support someone and their voice shouldn't matter, jesus christ CNN has done more for the KKK than anyone else has by constantly interviewing its leader--but a symbol that trying to shut people down by lying about their reasonable views and calling them racist doesn't work anymore. Because they went nuclear on that approach with Trump and he won anyway. Him being in the white house is a perpetual reminder that shit like that doesn't work anymore. The people know, and truth wins out. The kind of control that certain pricks used to have is fading.

Wow this was such a huge ramble that I don't even know where to paragraph break that last bit.

Welp. Guess I'll just hit post. Have fun tearing this apart. I'm in the middle of a heat wave and my brain is melting out my ears. Wheee.
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#651  September 27, 2017, 05:26:48 am
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Trustworthy? Let's see...
  • The travel ban (do I really need to explain this?)
  • The ban on transgenders in the military
  • The attempt to repeal ACA and replace it with an alternative that only accomplishes to put more money in the pockets of health insurance companies instead of actually providing health coverage
  • The completely fudged military raid in the Middle East earlier this year (the one that, iirc, ended up killing an 8 year old american girl who, coincidentally, happened to be the younger sister of two Americans killed in drone strikes during the Obama admin only 6 years earlier)
  • Many of his staff or associates having had ties with Russia (even when not taking the possibility of Trump himself being involved, its still not something that should be ignored)
  • Nominating Ajit Pai as chairman of the FCC (the man who singlehandedly killed net neutrality overnight who, prior to his nomination to FCC chair, was a lawyer for Verizon, one of the very tech companies threatened by the idea of net neutrality)
  • Using 5 days worth of focusing attention towards blasting NFL players for not standing during the national anthem, instead of using that time to focus on Puerto Rico's near-apocalyptic situation
  • Publicly advocating the use of police brutality (a sentiment shared by his own Attorney General I might add)
  • The mass deportations before and after the whole DACA situation took center stage

Need I go on?
Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 05:30:33 am by Ricepigeon
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#652  September 27, 2017, 05:46:14 am
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edit: You know what, I'm going to rewrite that comment without the rudeness.

Most of what you're talking about are things that Trump was elected to do. That's his job. To do what he was elected to do, what he ran on, what his supporters supported. It doesn't matter if you don't like that. Your job is to suck it up and win the next election. It is wrong to claim is he is a liar because he is doing what he promised to do. It makes him the exact opposite. Don't like it? Present a better platform and candidate next time, so that your policies get enacted instead.

Being trustworthy doesn't mean he has to do what you want. It just means he has to do what he said he would.
Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 05:58:42 am by Snakebyte
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#653  September 27, 2017, 06:11:32 am
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Trustworthy? Let's see...
...
I'm not sure how you're attempting to argue trustworthiness with some of your points there but..
Skipping the tired old "muslim ban" shit and the trans ban I don't know enough about, other than reassignment surgery should not be allowed for any active military members as it seems to have been implied, because it defeats the purpose of "active". I also recall Mark Hamill and other American celebrities posted a bunch of bogus numbers and statistics about it.

1. The attempt to repeal ACA and replace it with an alternative that only accomplishes to put more money in the pockets of health insurance companies instead of actually providing health coverage.
-This hasn't happened. The ACA replacement failure is currently on the side of the GOP, the same people who lost their party to Trump, because they've been so pisspoor at representing their constituents interests for decades now and also pisspoor at getting anything done period. Trump hasn't eaten their dogshit yet, because they haven't gotten far enough to feed it to him. The GOP is still demonstrating its skill here at being a constant chain of failure. This makes Trump look bad because he was cheerleading it, despite the work being on the GOP in the house/senate at this point and the past months. Trump doesn't write the laws, he can only influence the ideas until something lands on his desk.

2.  Many of his staff or associates having had ties with Russia (even when not taking the possibility of Trump himself being involved, its still not something that should be ignored).
-This is still an Infowars grade conspiracy theory that went mainstream, and should be regarded as such until actual -real- evidence is released to the American public. The hysterical shitshow lead by the WaPo and CNN on Trump himself was one of the most embarrassing media displays in recent history if you were actually following it. The continued usage of bad "anonymous sources" including those from Louise Mensch's camp as well as Pissgate and TWO TWEETS to name a couple of other blunders surrounding the Trump-Russia collusion conspiracy. Comey's testimony pretty much shit all over the media narrative, hence why they started getting their shit together on it, and why we stopped hearing about it.

3. Nominating Ajit Pai as chairman of the FCC (the man who singlehandedly killed net neutrality overnight who, prior to his nomination to FCC chair, was a lawyer for Verizon, one of the very tech companies threatened by the idea of net neutrality)
-First off, almost every FCC chairman has been Verizon/Comcast for years, this has been ongoing, nothing new or out of the ordinary. Second of all this isn't untrustworthy. Both Trump and Hillary made themselves open to the fact that they had no interest in consumer rights on the internet. It was a lose-lose election for anyone who gave a toss about the net and fairness.

4. Using 5 days worth of focusing attention towards blasting NFL players for not standing during the national anthem, instead of using that time to focus on Puerto Rico's near-apocalyptic situation
-Agreed. No one should be giving a shit about the NFL's political virtue signalling/advertising, least of all the US president. Has nothign to do with trust though.

5. Publicly advocating the use of police brutality (a sentiment shared by his own Attorney General I might add)
-Totally overblown. "Don't be nice to thugs in paddy wagons!"

6. The mass deportations before and after the whole DACA situation took center stage
-This is not a bad thing, no matter how you try and spin it. ICE under both Obama and Trump deported a shitload of people who were in the US illegally. And when your are in the US illegally, you are subject to deportation because you're breaking US law by being here illegally. If anything this makes Trump more trustworthy in fulfilling his duty, no?


I don't think trustworthy is the characteristic you're really arguing here.
Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 06:18:04 am by Chronan
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#654  September 27, 2017, 06:28:52 am
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If I remember correctly Trump claimed to be THE advocate for LBGTQ yet his trans ban says otherwise so how's that trustworthy? Trumps absolutely refuses to show his tax returns yet claimed he would after they've been "audited" to which the IRS already stated he could show them whenever like every other president in the past 40 some years has. Did you "trust" Trump while he claimed Obama wasn't a U.S. citizen for like 3 years even AFTER he had already been proven wrong about it? What about all the evidence he claimed to have had on Obama wiretapping him? Where's that at? If I were describe Trump, trustworthy is not a word I'd use let's not forget he invited Russia in to "find" the rest of Hilary's email's only last year.




edit: Go ask Luther Strange about all that "trust" he has with Trump right now after he basically dump him for Roy Moore in Alabama. "I might have made a mistake"
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/09/23/trump_i_might_have_made_a_mistake_endorsing_strange_will_be_called_an_embarrassment_if_he_loses.html
Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 06:41:59 am by Shocksconstant
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#655  September 27, 2017, 06:36:02 am
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Trustworthy might not be the right word here... it's more like 'willing to step on the eggshells and be fine with bloody feet". People like that in a person.

In fact, it's when he's on the road at his events is when he's at his best... which is also when he gets himself into trouble. This is what I call 'Dumbass Donald'. When he speaks in a less forceful tone, you can tell when there's a teleprompter is involved. This is what I call 'Teleprompter Trump'

Both of these personas are two sides of the same coin. Teleprompter Trump is straight forward and even sounds like a President. Dumbass Donald is more forceful and more then willing to go head first into a proverbial mine field just to prove a point. The latest fight with the NFL is a great example of him willing to go head first into a mine field.

His biggest problem is a party that's starting to show signs of an internal divide. The guy Trump supported in Alabama lost tonight to a guy supported by his former Adviser. The plans they have are consistently railroaded by it's own members.
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#656  September 27, 2017, 06:54:20 am
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Politicians lie. They stretch the truth, they cite erroneous statistics, and offer misleading conclusions and speculation with alarming regularity. That is an unfortunate and unavoidable aspect of the political system we all live in, and it is one everyone must accept and find some way to live with. Some politicians are more honest than others, but none of them are perfect, and it would be foolish to try and pretend otherwise.

Donald Trump is different. He doesn't lie like a politician does. He does it constantly, consistently, nearly every single day. He makes absurd, sweeping untruths without any seeming effort at all. Where normal politicians stick to (mostly) slightly stretching the truth, he makes up entirely fake, lurid pieces of fiction. He exaggerates needlessly, fabricating numbers and statistics that are wildly off base for no real reason.

His lying has stymied, and still is stymieing, most major news outlets; their normal tools and methods of interacting with and reporting on politicians simply don't apply, or aren't useful to Trump. They're used to dealing with normal politicians, who generally take care to never make a directly provably false statement, preferring instead to offer half-truths and misleading supporting statements. This is not true of Trump, and it has made for an incredibly rough adjustment.

The dedicated fact checking websites and fact checking sections at traditional news outlets are frequently at a loss, unable to keep up with the sheer volume of deception coming out of Trump's mouth. But an even cursory glance at these sites makes the difference between an ordinary politician and Trump crystal clear. The Toronto Star has a pretty good one, and it even generously (perhaps overly so) gives Trump the benefit of the doubt by calling these "false claims", and not straight up lies, because it's possible not every false claim was an intentional lie.

But I don't really expect this to change any hearts and minds out there. Things are too dead set and locked in, which is pretty unfortunate, given the wide gulf between the two sides. It is difficult to imagine any worthwhile discussion coming out of a debate when those sides exist in practically different realities.

But yeah, lies, huh? Here's one from today, I guess: despite Trump's repeated claims during the campaign that he would be so, so much better at protecting LGBTQ rights than his opponent, his Justice Department argued today in federal court that employers should be allowed to fire people because of their sexuality, as they interpret Title VII's protection against discrimination based on sex to refer solely to gender, and not to sexual orientation (which is how most courts are interpreting it these days).

This case is especially odd because the Justice Department's opponents in this case are the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. The DOJ inserted itself into this case in July, filing a brief supporting the employer that fired the gay employee who is suing.

But that's not gonna stop Trump from continuing to boast of his support of the LGBTQ community.

This hasn't happened. The ACA replacement failure is currently on the side of the GOP, the same people who lost their party to Trump, because they've been so pisspoor at representing their constituents interests for decades now and also pisspoor at getting anything done period.
Yeah, that's simply not accurate. When one party controls both Congress and the White House, legislation is a team sport, a coordinated, multi-pronged effort that takes advantage of the unique strengths and abilities of both entities. Like, take the ACA: surely no one would seriously try to argue that the Obama administration sat idly by while Congress spent a year writing and holding hearings for the bill. This thing was given the name "Obamacare" for a reason: the Obama administration worked tirelessly, working not only to help craft the exact language that would become the final bill, but it also pulled out all the stops to whip the vote, coaxing nervous Democratic members of Congress who were incredibly reluctant to support the bill. And eventually, those efforts succeeded, and the ACA was passed by Congress and signed by the President.

It's a useful comparison to the way the Trump administration has been handling the Obamacare repeal efforts: after spending the entire campaign making wild promises about how his administration would repeal Obamacare, while also lowering premiums, and while also keeping the protections for preexisting conditions and all those other widely popular popular bits of Obamacare that most people like; once Inauguration Day rolled on by, the administration made no moves on health care reform, instead deferring entirely to the Republican Congress, which had some very, very different ideas in how to best repeal the ACA. Instead of trying to try to keep even some of the sweeping campaign promises Trump made on health care reform, his administration was content to allow the Congress to determine the best course of action, and resigned itself to signing whatever passed over the president's desk.

This is very much not the standard operating procedure in government. The administration was derelict in its role of helping shape legislation, and it also failed to put much pressure at whipping recalcitrant Republican members of Congress. The repeated failures to repeal Obamacare, and the multitudes of shockingly terrible bills and proposals that Congress came up with to repeal Obamacare, cannot be divorced from the Trump administration, because there was every opportunity for them to take the lead, for them to help the majority leaders get the votes they needed. The failure to repeal Obamacare weighs equally on Congress and on the White House.

It's certainly good for entire country that those efforts failed, of course! For now, at least...
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#657  September 27, 2017, 01:53:29 pm
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If I remember correctly Trump claimed to be THE advocate for LBGTQ yet his trans ban says otherwise so how's that trustworthy? Trumps absolutely refuses to show his tax returns yet claimed he would after they've been "audited" to which the IRS already stated he could show them whenever like every other president in the past 40 some years has. Did you "trust" Trump while he claimed Obama wasn't a U.S. citizen for like 3 years even AFTER he had already been proven wrong about it? What about all the evidence he claimed to have had on Obama wiretapping him? Where's that at? If I were describe Trump, trustworthy is not a word I'd use let's not forget he invited Russia in to "find" the rest of Hilary's email's only last year.

You're never going to convince me that the trans military ban is somehow an 'attack'. It is in line with how the military treats anyone with a medical condition, and being exempted from the draft is not cruel. It is kind. It is insane to twist this into bigotry.

You are not entitled to see the tax returns of a private citizen.

If you followed the news a little more closely, you'd see that he has been vindicated about the wiretapping. CNN posted an 'exclusive' on it roughly six months after the fact verifying the story.

I don't understand how anyone has a problem with that Russia comment either. Just more hysteria.

Quote
Donald Trump is different. He doesn't lie like a politician does. He does it constantly, consistently, nearly every single day. He makes absurd, sweeping untruths without any seeming effort at all. Where normal politicians stick to (mostly) slightly stretching the truth, he makes up entirely fake, lurid pieces of fiction. He exaggerates needlessly, fabricating numbers and statistics that are wildly off base for no real reason.

His lying has stymied, and still is stymieing, most major news outlets; their normal tools and methods of interacting with and reporting on politicians simply don't apply, or aren't useful to Trump. They're used to dealing with normal politicians, who generally take care to never make a directly provably false statement, preferring instead to offer half-truths and misleading supporting statements. This is not true of Trump, and it has made for an incredibly rough adjustment.

The dedicated fact checking websites and fact checking sections at traditional news outlets are frequently at a loss, unable to keep up with the sheer volume of deception coming out of Trump's mouth. But an even cursory glance at these sites makes the difference between an ordinary politician and Trump crystal clear. The Toronto Star has a pretty good one, and it even generously (perhaps overly so) gives Trump the benefit of the doubt by calling these "false claims", and not straight up lies, because it's possible not every false claim was an intentional lie.

Incorrect. It's the major news outlets and fact checking sites that are lying constantly, nearly every single day. The giant lists of Trump's 'lies' are laughable, and include things like 'She didn't destroy iphones with a hammer, she destroyed blackberries with a hammer'. He frequently exaggerates or gets details wrong in the moment but that's not the same as lying, and thee sites are so insane and petty about what they deem a lie in their mad rush to call him a liar that they lose all credibility.

This isn't a claim I'm just throwing out there. Give me any of these lists and I'll tear it to shreds. I've done so before, I'm happy to take the time to do it again. If you only take a cursory glance as one of these sites, then maybe it looks convincing. If you examine the claims in detail, they fall apart and are revealed for the spiteful deceitful nonsense they are.

Re: ACA, it seems pretty clear to me that he's using it as a way to attack the parts of his own party that he doesn't like. I'm not sure what the end-game is here or where he's going with it, though.

edit: No, I'm not going to do that, I'm not going to skim over the inconvenient bit. Continuing:

Quote
But yeah, lies, huh? Here's one from today, I guess: despite Trump's repeated claims during the campaign that he would be so, so much better at protecting LGBTQ rights than his opponent, his Justice Department argued today in federal court that employers should be allowed to fire people because of their sexuality, as they interpret Title VII's protection against discrimination based on sex to refer solely to gender, and not to sexual orientation (which is how most courts are interpreting it these days).

This case is especially odd because the Justice Department's opponents in this case are the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. The DOJ inserted itself into this case in July, filing a brief supporting the employer that fired the gay employee who is suing.

But that's not gonna stop Trump from continuing to boast of his support of the LGBTQ community.

Yeah, there's no defending this. With anything Trump-related, there's always the possibility that any given thing is bullshit media spin, but that doesn't seem very likely here.

But the really annoying thing is that I never signed up to defend every action Trump makes. When you bring something up that I genuinely find repugnant but when it's mixed in with a bunch of other things I know to be bullshit, the temptation to skim over the inconvenient bits is huge. Because it doesn't prove your overall point. It doesn't make the rest of the bullshit suddenly not bullshit.

I'm not presenting him as someone perfect. I'm presenting him as someone who is hated undeservedly, who is constantly lied about, and who I still think is substantially better than the alternatives. 'Better than the alternatives' is a disgustingly low bar and there are several things that he's done that I hate, but that doesn't mean I'm going to align myself with people I see as far worse to attack someone I see as still an overall net good.

None of that is directed at you personally, I'm not calling you a liar here.
Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 02:03:29 pm by Snakebyte
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#658  September 27, 2017, 02:48:36 pm
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You're never going to convince me that the trans military ban is somehow an 'attack'. It is in line with how the military treats anyone with a medical condition, and being exempted from the draft is not cruel. It is kind. It is insane to twist this into bigotry.

You are not entitled to see the tax returns of a private citizen.

If you followed the news a little more closely, you'd see that he has been vindicated about the wiretapping. CNN posted an 'exclusive' on it roughly six months after the fact verifying the story.

I don't understand how anyone has a problem with that Russia comment either. Just more hysteria.

It's just too bad that I specifically stated how those things make him untrustworthy not if its bigotry, or if I deserved to see tax returns, or how he "feels" vindicated about the wiretapping (he claimed to HAVE the evidence already directly targeting him!)

You also missed one about Obama being an U.S citizen, did YOU trust him during that whole birther debacle or not considering the "media is always lying on him" motto you like using.
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#659  September 27, 2017, 03:42:40 pm
  • ****
  • Humanity can be so much more
    • Jamaica
    • https://network.mugenguild.com/makkah/
Since the tax returns were brought up, Donald Trump is NOT a private citizen. Every Presidential candidate going back decades has revealed their tax returns. First he said they were under audit and that he couldn't release them
That's a lie. There's no law prohibiting the release of the returns while they're being audited. Let's assume he meant he would prefer to do so after for his own peace of mind. He still hasn't done it. Insisting no one cares. He says it over and over until people seemingly give up. I don't trust politicians, and I don't trust corporate business men either. I think he's hiding something.
Re: The Donald Trump Political MAGAthread: "Patriot Wars: United States v. NFL"
#660  September 27, 2017, 04:18:51 pm
  • ******
If we're talking trust now, the media has been the worst thing about the last several months. If anyone's been untrustworthy it's been them. They champion being the more reasonable people, but they've shown on occasion be merely shades better than pandering trash like Huffpo and Kotaku. Not even a year into this and there's this listing:

Russia : transparent attempt to delegitimize him. If they happen to find evidence, cherry on top, otherwise simply mentioning it ad nausea works too.
Travel ban : call it a Muslim ban instead, facts be damned, proof that Trump is a xenophobic fascist.
Wiretapping : explain how Obama would never do that, suppress how the courts were given way more power (by him) to search through evidence.
Attacking Syria : talk about how the experienced politicians approve (I wonder why), first truly presidential thing he's ever done.
CNN gif : exaggerate its meaning and call it a ploy to endanger and assault journalists, fascist dictator.
Paris agreement : run the climate change denier narrative, suppress the numbers on how effective it'd actually be.
Charlottesville : viciously condemn neo-nazis, pacify the wrongdoings of Antifa. Doubled as fear-mongered race baiting, same kind alternative media uses to vilify Muslims.

Media on both sides of the spectrum is a business, and they're in the business of subtly riling up emotions to get viewers and the response they want. And it works wonders, always has, I'm not gonna say it's some new phenomenon that started in the Fake News-era. I think a good number of criticism towards Donnie is fair, but I think it's also fair to point out on how much of it is tainted with an agenda.