The Mugen Fighters Guild - [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

luis2345

[KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#1 November 11, 2013, 12:32:19 pm

What are the top most important in-depth stuff that any character must have to be good?
Like for example:

-can't crouch while running,
-can't ground tech if "vel y > 0" (ahuron made this mistake in a lot of characters),
-proper CLSNs (no infinite priority)
- damage dampener
- disable air blocking (if needed) etc

I would like to know more about it about KOF characters in general

http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?topic=64575

By Matrimelee
Luis2345 Video thread
AI\'s : Cassandra,Fliz,Angel,Kung fu Man,Ai,Yuri,Adon

Niitris

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#2 November 11, 2013, 02:50:39 pm

On the proper CLSNs, one thing to be careful of are attacks that use the same frame for too long.

This really only pertains to the older characters since most their animations weren't updated. Some sprites will have a hitbox for the first few frames and then the hitbox will be gone after some time passes, so watch out for that.

Also, generally characters cannot cancel command moves into specials unless a normal is done before it (I'm sure that's a mistake people have made). Whiff cancels are also possible.

Cybaster

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#3 November 16, 2013, 09:28:28 am

Limited time to use Infinite power !

The CLSN discussion is void for KOF chars : most KOF games allow you to see their CLSNs in Mame/WinKawaks or whatever, so you can (should) make them accurate. Infinite priority is present in certain moves for a reason, since the design of the CLSN is a huge part of the gameplay and how a move behaves.

Sinnesloschen

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#4 November 16, 2013, 06:56:02 pm

tired

luis2345 said, November 11, 2013, 12:32:19 pm

- disable air blocking (if needed) etc

I figure a better method is, if possible, allow them to air guard but simply make all of their attacks unblockable in the air. It pretty much simulates not having air guard for the opponent.

Alpaca-San said, December 27, 2014, 08:50:31 am

Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?

Vans

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#5 November 18, 2013, 02:36:12 am

Xan said, November 16, 2013, 06:56:02 pm

I figure a better method is, if possible, allow them to air guard but simply make all of their attacks unblockable in the air. It pretty much simulates not having air guard for the opponent.

Please don't do this.

Forcing your mechanics onto the opponent is extremely rude and ultimately ruins what the other author may have intended, especially if it's groove focused. If the gameplay doesn't mix (e.g. KOF and GG) then it just doesn't mix, don't force it.

In my experience KOF is all about details, but that also makes it harder to capture the essence.

I think the absolute must-haves are:

- Proper cornerpush
- Proper CLSN boxes
- Proper hitpause/movetime
- Proper cancels
- Proper movement (velocities included)

Getting all of these things right requires no effort nowadays, there's really no excuse for having them wrong.

It takes years to notice and implement the really fine details of the system, but it can be done gradually over time.

Bastard Mami

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#6 November 18, 2013, 04:47:45 pm

a lot of people get proper cancels wrong, if youa re using movecontact at all you are doing it wrong.

Jiggeh

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#7 November 18, 2013, 11:05:55 pm

SEIYAA!

Would you mind elaborating a bit on that?

MellyInChains

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#8 November 18, 2013, 11:10:56 pm

i'm a gay trans lady
to hell with this site, find me at mffa or w/e

what about kof-'styled' characters, like if they weren't actually in a kof game but you wanted to add the system to them. because i've been contemplating doing that myself one day

Niitris

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#9 November 18, 2013, 11:20:41 pm

Jiggeh said, November 18, 2013, 11:05:55 pm

Would you mind elaborating a bit on that?

In KoF, you can do "miss/empty cancels." Save for a few exceptions, a normal or command doesn't have to hit in order to be canceled into a special/super (the timing can be pretty strict depending on the move). Thus, you wouldn't use MoveContact.

Bastard Mami

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#10 November 19, 2013, 12:09:16 am

maximilianjenus said, November 18, 2013, 04:47:45 pm

a lot of people get proper cancels wrong, if youa re using movecontact at all you are doing it wrong.

as niitris said, most cancels in kof do not require contact.

there are also some coomon mugen bugs/kfm legacy bugs, that end up making kof chars feel bad, they also tend to get into other characters, like not triggering early jump attacks or not attacking at all while tapping down.
1st one is because if you press the button on the jump start state nothing tells mugen to buffer your jump attack so it will never come out.
2nd one is when statetype =C, S, etc are used in the attack's change states instead of command != hold down and statetype !=A .

another kof feature that almost never gets ported in mugen is that special attacks won't come out if you press the opossite direction, so if you do a qcf +A then hold back, the special attack does not come out in kof, same for dps. in teh case of non dps down has the same effect, it's used a lot for comboing supers after basic attacks, my favorite example is doing hcb,f+C with clark, then hcb+ punch to combo his dm. another is doing crouch B, qcf,d + A, then another qcf or qcb + button to combo a dm.

MelvanaInChains said, November 18, 2013, 11:10:56 pm

what about kof-'styled' characters, like if they weren't actually in a kof game but you wanted to add the system to them. because i've been contemplating doing that myself one day

they should follow most if not all of the basics.

Jiggeh

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#11 November 19, 2013, 11:23:25 am

SEIYAA!

I see. Would you say movecontact as a trigger should be avoided altogether for any type of character, or is this just because of a particular quirk in how KOF works?

If you don't mind me highjacking this thread a little, what you mention about buffering in particular makes me a little curious -- I've started dabbling with MUGEN character programming in the last few weeks, trying to get the hang of basics and whatnot, and one thing I noticed (as I'm using KFM as a template) is that inputs, in particular in relation to jumps, feel pretty stiff. I take it there is simply no kind of input buffering "by default". It made me curious about what kind of input buffering is possible, and how to approach it. For instance with no input buffering it's strangely difficult to connect ground normals after a jump-in attack, and the example you give of early jump attacks not coming out makes perfect sense too.

It seems like a pretty fundamental thing in making any character feel good to play, not just in terms of creating source-accurate KOF characters, but I haven't really seen any information on the topic in any of the tutorials or tips&tricks threads around here. I'd appreciate any light that could be shed on the subject.

walt

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#12 November 19, 2013, 03:15:13 pm

SNK is life

Jiggeh said, November 19, 2013, 11:23:25 am

Would you say movecontact as a trigger should be avoided altogether for any type of character, or is this just because of a particular quirk in how KOF works?

This intrigues me too, please elaborate [E]

Thedge

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#13 November 19, 2013, 03:35:53 pm

Lazy spriter
Demon in heaven gotta carry a knife

Those cancels without hitting the opponent are easily noticeable with blowbacks, you can CD then input any special.
You can try with most c+HP, since most of them are cancelable.

MelvanaInChains said, November 18, 2013, 11:10:56 pm

what about kof-'styled' characters, like if they weren't actually in a kof game but you wanted to add the system to them. because i've been contemplating doing that myself one day

I tried my best with Honda, all these empty cancels are wrong, since I indeed used the movecontact parameter when activating the cancel property, but you can get the idea on how to "import" your character to the KOF gameplay.

That’s when I thought, “good grief”
Just ain’t my belief
Until I saw the holes
Inside his hand

Bastard Mami

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#14 November 19, 2013, 04:04:19 pm

walt said, November 19, 2013, 03:15:13 pm

Jiggeh said, November 19, 2013, 11:23:25 am
Would you say movecontact as a trigger should be avoided altogether for any type of character, or is this just because of a particular quirk in how KOF works?
This intrigues me too, please elaborate [E]

from my tests, games that rely on chain combos for gameplay, like the vs series, the rumble fish, etc... are the opossite, they use movecontact; so it would be a kof only thing, though after reading james chen's cvs2 faq it seems while empty cancels are not a capcom thing they are present in cvs2 so a cvs2 style character should have empty cancels as well, so a rule of thumb could be to give your characters empty cancels for everything but chain combos and make those require movecontact.

luis2345

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#15 November 20, 2013, 05:43:35 am

Also, if you hold any attack button all special and super moves are disabled.

Like for example, if you hold HK then input D,DF,F + HP, the special move won't come out.
I haven't seen this implemented in mugen
That detail is useful for shorcuts for combos and to avoid unwanted supers to come out.

http://www.mugen-infantry.net/forum/index.php?topic=64575

By Matrimelee
Luis2345 Video thread
AI\'s : Cassandra,Fliz,Angel,Kung fu Man,Ai,Yuri,Adon

Bastard Mami

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#16 November 21, 2013, 03:42:39 pm

yep, that's true, though you only end up using that if opossite direction does not work for you or for some weird reasing you need a dp not to come out. another small tidbit about kof is that commands get inverted based on position (is p2 behind you) not facing.

Kamekaze

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#17 March 25, 2014, 05:32:43 am

Sr. Black Person
Mess with the chuchu you get the pewpew

I disagree with the sentiment that forcing your gameplay on p2 is rude. For me it's how I keep things consistent for my chars all together. For example, in some of my stuff allowing p2 to quick rise almost makes them useless but this is my burden since I tackle things with accuracy in mind at all costs. By making the opponent play by my rules my stuff gets to fight on it's terms which usually is AI related. We're on two sides of the spectrum I guess and that's my opinion.

Want to feel useful for a useless show? click here
119/150 Chars, I'm not dead yet....the true surprise is in my thread.
Hahahah fuck you photobucket.

Legendary DeMoNk@I

Re: [KOF] Things you shouldn't forget before releasing your character?

#18 March 26, 2014, 07:21:22 pm

Niitris said, November 18, 2013, 11:20:41 pm

Jiggeh said, November 18, 2013, 11:05:55 pm
Would you mind elaborating a bit on that?

In KoF, you can do "miss/empty cancels." Save for a few exceptions, a normal or command doesn't have to hit in order to be canceled into a special/super (the timing can be pretty strict depending on the move). Thus, you wouldn't use MoveContact.

shit....now i gotta go back and change my code back the way i had it originally....i thought i did that method wrong. thanks for bringing this up about KOF...i second guessed myself some months back on something. Anyway this is a very helpful thread and reminder of things for KOF gameplay style