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Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License (Read 5130 times)

Started by EVILED, June 08, 2019, 05:52:35 am
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Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#1  June 08, 2019, 05:52:35 am
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Hello. I asked this question about a year ago and, to be frank, I’m just as confused now as I was then.

What exactly is the Gacel Version of Ikemen Go Plus?

For context, this is what I mean. Is this project a fully self contained MIT Licensed fighting game engine? Or, is it some kind of extension or front end that sits on top of the core guts of mugen?

I ask because it seems like (and maybe I’m just not understanding it correctly) it is still sitting on top of at least one mugen file.

I asked Gacel what this part of the license of his fork meant.

“※Note Data files below, font Following files contain content created by a third party, It is not covered by this license.”

He was very helpful in explaining this to me as fallows.

“That refers to the common1.cns file, it is copyrighted by elecbyte and it's under the mugen licence. All the other files in the repo are under the MIT one. The k4thos repo (Now outdated) have some characters and all of the mugen files. About using Ikemen commercially it could be used but you have to create a new screenpack (Because elecbyte non commercial use) and use the .zss vesion of common1.”

If I am understanding this correctly, then, the only two things that would need to be done to make this version of Ikemen Go Plus fully MIT is to switch out its screen pack and switch over to the .zss version of common1.

But, I was not really sure what common1 is as I am not a programmer.

I looked it up online at this site. (https://fileinfo.com/extension/cns) It says the fallowing.

“Game properties file used by M.U.G.E.N. (or just Mugen), a free 2D fighting game engine; stores character states, which are the positions that the fighters assume after an event has occurred, such as jumping or receiving a punch or kick. The M.U.G.E.N. engine uses common states for all characters, which are stored in the common1.cns file in the \data\ directory of the game engine installation. However, you can also override common states with specific states for an individual character. The specific states are saved in the \chars\ directory.”

I kind of figured it was some sort of file that every character referenced, considering it’s called common. To try to figure out what common1.zss is, I found this at the fallowing link. (http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/zss-ikemen-alternative-cns-scripts-182808.0.html)

“While messing with Ikemen Go I've noticed that it introduces new characters script format called Zantei State Script (ZSS). Ikemen Go engine still supports CNS but full game developers and people who only now start learning how to create characters may be interested in this alternative, since it uses syntax more familiar to other programming languages and allows to use local variables and functions. Thanks to the open source of the engine it's also possible to add new triggers and sctrls if the engine is to limiting.

No ZSS documentation is available but it’s pretty easy to understand since basic syntax fallows Go rules (well documented language) and there is common1.cns file coded both ways, which can be used as a reference.”

So, this has me wondering a lot of questions now. Why is common1.cns still part of Ikemen Go Plus if common1.zss already exists? I am not a programmer. So, what I’m going to do here is make some guess questions because I have no idea.

1: Is it needed for compatibility reasons? Maybe characters not coded specifically for common1.zss wouldn’t work with Ikemen Go Plus without common1.cns.

2: Is common1.zss incomplete? Maybe common1.zss needs more work because it is ready to fully replace common1.cns.

3: Does common1.cns perform better than common1.zss? Like, maybe it renders the older characters made for it more accurately or faster or something.

4: Is it personal preference to still be using the common1.cns file? Maybe sense it’s been around so long it is being kept because people are used to using it instead of common1.zss.

Again, I have no idea. I’m just guessing. It just seems odd to me as to why common1.cns would be kept around if common1.zss is a fully functional replacement. Especially sense I was told that common1.cns is the only mugen licensed file in what is otherwise a fully MIT project. (Aside from, as also stated, the screen pack. But, a screen pack is art content and not code. So, I could replace that with a different screen pack or make my own screen pack.)

So, here is my question. If common1.zss is fully functional, how hard would it be for me to delete common1.cns and just replace it with common1.zss? Is it as simple as deleting common1.cns and dropping common1.zss into the same folder where common1.cns used to be? If so, where do I download common1.zss?

If it’s not that simple, what do I need to do? Do I need to compile Ikemen Go Plus differently? Or, would this require programming knowledge on my part?

Also, is it really true that common1.cns and the screen pack are the only not MIT Licensed mugen files in the project? I feel bad to ask this, because this is what I was told by Cacel. However, I ask this because when I tried to compile the project and run it on Windows 10 Home 64 Bit I ran into the project crashing. I filed an issue report on it. (https://github.com/Windblade-GR01/Ikemen_GO/issues/29)

To get the project to run, I had download the mugen dependencies files and place them into the project folder as instructed to do from this page. But, it only says to do this for debugging purposes. It doesn't say to do this just to launch the engine. (https://github.com/Windblade-GR01/Ikemen_GO)

“Debugging Download the Mugen dependencies and unpack them into the Ikemen_GO source dir. Then, use Goland or Visual Studio Code to debug.”

Both the version of the project that I compiled from source code and the release version that I downloaded failed to launch until I added these files. When I added these files, both launched and worked well.

Is this some kind of a bug in the current version of the project? I downloaded an older version of the project and it also crashed without these files. Or, does this project still sit on top of all of these mugen files to work?

Maybe the project just sits on top of common1.cns and the other files are there just for debugging purposes as work is done to replace them. I don’t know. But, nothing about regular compiling or using the per-compiled binaries tells me that I have to use these files to just run the engine. Yet, for my case at least, that’s exactly what I have to do.

Have I missed a step or something? Or, is there a step that’s not explained? When I run the per-compiled version I get a text file called ikemen.txt with the fallowing error message text inside.

“.\script\motif.lua:1317: open font/f-4x6.fnt: The system cannot find the path specified.
stack traceback:
[G]: in function 'fontNew'
.\script\motif.lua:1317: in function <.\script\motif.lua:0>
[G]: in function 'require'
script/main.lua:940: in main chunk
[G]: ?


So, at the very least, it’s not finding the font. Which, I assume, is part of the screen pack. But, again, I could be wrong here. Am I supposed to install a screen pack from somewhere else on the project site so that I don’t have to install all of these other mugen files with the project? Or, are all of these other mugen files required to run the project. Or, am I supposed to find and bring in a screen pack from somewhere else that is not on the project site; or make my own screen pack? Nothing really says.

Sorry that this post is so long. But, I had a lot to say and these are the questions and issues that I am currently having with the engine.

All that being said, what I have running now does seem to be working and it is a lot of fun. I will try my new fight stick with it soon. But, everything I wrote in this post are all still questions and issues that I am hoping to find answers to.

Thank you for your time.
Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 06:05:17 am by EVILED
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#2  June 08, 2019, 07:45:22 am
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PLEASE pay attention, i already have headaches and MIT nightmares because of your posts from last year and the ones now.


Mugen has 20 years (1999 - 2019) and was made for users to create their dreamed fighting games.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

I dont know why you insist in proffit and money.
TAKE the engine, MAKE your game, SELL it, EARN money and LIVE happy ever after, NOBODY stops you, this is a FREE cloned engine.


IF YOU WANT to make a fighting game who has no connection with any mugen related file or code, there are MORE REALLY FREE alternatives as GODOT engine or Allegro or FENIX , all are opensource.


Edit: If you still wants to play with ikemen then download the source and double click on get.bat, it will download all the dependences needed to compile the engine.
Second is to double click on build.bat to compile it (all .go files are the engine, no more no less)
Third to run the engine download THE MUGEN files to put it in this mugen clone and double click on the ikemen exe already compiled.
Lastly enjoy the game.

If you have problems with video , update the drivers and that´s it.
There is no knowledge that is not power
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Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 08:04:42 am by MangeX
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#3  June 08, 2019, 10:16:29 am
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1: Is it needed for compatibility reasons? Maybe characters not coded specifically for common1.zss wouldn’t work with Ikemen Go Plus without common1.cns.

2: Is common1.zss incomplete? Maybe common1.zss needs more work because it is ready to fully replace common1.cns.

3: Does common1.cns perform better than common1.zss? Like, maybe it renders the older characters made for it more accurately or faster or something.

4: Is it personal preference to still be using the common1.cns file? Maybe sense it’s been around so long it is being kept because people are used to using it instead of common1.zss.

1: There is no such thing. I think compatibility is not a problem.

2: common1.cns.zss is completely replaces the function of common1.cns.

3: There will be no difference in performance.

4: The player can use his favorite common1 file.

The reason why common1.cns is included is probably because cns is considered easier to handle. zss has different syntax, need to get used to writing.

So, here is my question. If common1.zss is fully functional, how hard would it be for me to delete common1.cns and just replace it with common1.zss? Is it as simple as deleting common1.cns and dropping common1.zss into the same folder where common1.cns used to be? If so, where do I download common1.zss?

common1.cns.zss can be used simply by replacing the file. The original common1.cns.zss is available from SUEHIRO's original fork.

So, at the very least, it’s not finding the font. Which, I assume, is part of the screen pack. But, again, I could be wrong here. Am I supposed to install a screen pack from somewhere else on the project site so that I don’t have to install all of these other mugen files with the project? Or, are all of these other mugen files required to run the project. Or, am I supposed to find and bring in a screen pack from somewhere else that is not on the project site; or make my own screen pack? Nothing really says.

Need to download the MUGEN dependencies because need char, stages, and screenpack files to run.
However, someone can make it from scratch for IKEMEN GO, combine it into one package and release it as an MIT license.
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#4  June 09, 2019, 12:03:06 am
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1: Is it needed for compatibility reasons? Maybe characters not coded specifically for common1.zss wouldn’t work with Ikemen Go Plus without common1.cns.

2: Is common1.zss incomplete? Maybe common1.zss needs more work because it is ready to fully replace common1.cns.

3: Does common1.cns perform better than common1.zss? Like, maybe it renders the older characters made for it more accurately or faster or something.

4: Is it personal preference to still be using the common1.cns file? Maybe sense it’s been around so long it is being kept because people are used to using it instead of common1.zss.

1: There is no such thing. I think compatibility is not a problem.

2: common1.cns.zss is completely replaces the function of common1.cns.

3: There will be no difference in performance.

4: The player can use his favorite common1 file.

The reason why common1.cns is included is probably because cns is considered easier to handle. zss has different syntax, need to get used to writing.

So, here is my question. If common1.zss is fully functional, how hard would it be for me to delete common1.cns and just replace it with common1.zss? Is it as simple as deleting common1.cns and dropping common1.zss into the same folder where common1.cns used to be? If so, where do I download common1.zss?

common1.cns.zss can be used simply by replacing the file. The original common1.cns.zss is available from SUEHIRO's original fork.

So, at the very least, it’s not finding the font. Which, I assume, is part of the screen pack. But, again, I could be wrong here. Am I supposed to install a screen pack from somewhere else on the project site so that I don’t have to install all of these other mugen files with the project? Or, are all of these other mugen files required to run the project. Or, am I supposed to find and bring in a screen pack from somewhere else that is not on the project site; or make my own screen pack? Nothing really says.

Need to download the MUGEN dependencies because need char, stages, and screenpack files to run.
However, someone can make it from scratch for IKEMEN GO, combine it into one package and release it as an MIT license.

Thank you. You have been very helpful.

If I understand everything you said correctly, all I need to do is the fallowing to bring the engine itself completely under the MIT License.

1: Go to the original Ikemen Go repository and download common1.cns.zss  and replace common1.cns with it.

2: Make my own screen pack to use to replace the current mugen one.

3: Create an empty folder for characters and create an empty folder for stages.

Did I miss anything? If so, let me know.

I will proceed then with replacing common1.cns with common1.zss. I will also begin the process of replacing the screen pack. I'll take a quick look to see if anyone has explicitly placed any in the public domain. But, I assume the answer to that is probably not. If that is the case, I will begin researching the process for creating my own screen pack. It looks like it shouldn't be too difficult. I know there are fonts that exist that are licensed to be compatible with the MIT License. So, I think, the rest is just learning the template sizes and creating my own graphics using GIMP and trying to make it look nice. I've done a lot of work in GIMP, so it shouldn't be too hard. I'll start looking for tutorials. This will be a fun project.

If this is all that needs done to bring the engine over, this shouldn't be too difficult. If I am successful, I will indeed combine it all into one package that is completely MIT Licensed so that others can use it too. I guess that would technically make it a fork itself. But, really only in the sense of one file swap out and a custom made screen pack. But, others might find having this work already done useful so that they don't have to do it themselves later.

Update: I have downloaded common1.cns.zss  and replaced common1.cns with it like you said to do. It was easy, like you said, and everything works fine.

I will proceed to learn how to make a screen pack. I think there exists tools that I can use to do this.
Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 07:16:09 am by EVILED
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#5  June 09, 2019, 08:37:34 am
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PLEASE pay attention

I'm trying. But, it's very difficult for several reasons. First off, I legitimately think there is a language barrier here. I understand that people are working on Ikemen from many different countries, backgrounds, and languages. But, your English is rather choppy and difficult to understand.


i already have headaches and MIT nightmares because of your posts from last year and the ones now.

First off, you are under no obligation to read or reply to my posts. If my posts are causing you such traumatic distress you may feel free to ignore them. All you do is complain at me for nonsensical reasons that are half baked and then give me partial, very broken information to work off of. I’d just as well you ignore me and not reply. It would be equally as useful. Others have provided very clear and helpful information.

I tried to read the giant text box in “Spoiler, click to toggle visibility” in your last reply to me and believe me; if you are finding me as difficult to understand as I find you then I can see why you are having headaches.

As far as your nightmares go, I am simply trying to find a way to bring the engine entirely under a clear license and ask some pertinent questions concerning that.

My main goal here is actually license compliance for Free Software Philosophy, morality, and clarity reasons.

The idea of having some files in the engine (or that the engine needs to run) licensed one way and others licensed the other way is kind of messy. It’s personal choice on the part of the person developing and maintaining the fork. So, it’s not mine to demand anything. But, it creates some confusion as to what can and can not legally be done with the software. The entire point of the license is to clear away any and all confusion in what people reviving the software can do with the software.

In a way, this kind of reminds me of Gzdoom compared with Zandronum; both Doom engines. Zandronum is based on Gzdoom code. It’s the multiplayer Gzdoom. Gzdoom is nicely and cleanly entirely all under the GNU GPL. Zandronum, on the other hand, has a laundry list of licenses that come with the project. It’s a total mess. Why it’s not all under the GNU GPL is beyond me. It makes everything so much easier when everything is under one license. Gzdoom recently adopted the GNU GPL and the GNU GPL requires all derivative works to be licensed the same way. So, I am genuinely curious as to what new versions of Zandronum will do. If they base off of the GNU GPL code, then they have to be GPL as well. Which means they have to kick out any software under not compatible license. Maybe they will finally all come under one license. That remains to be seen.

I got frustrated with mugen because I felt that after twenty years Elecbyte owed the community his code, honestly.

I know that’s a controversial statement. But, morally, it’s how I feel. The only thing mugen was ever known for and good at is being the fighting game engine where you can have Peter Griffin beat the crap out of Homer Simpson and Chicken Man. It’s been twenty years and a community has grown creating funny, entertaining, and interesting content around mugen. But almost all of it is based on intellectual property that companies own. Remakes of Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter characters and stages, so on, so forth.

Mugen only ever had as much profit potential over these last two decades as Ikemen does now. And in those two decades nothing has ever really come of mugen’s profit potential. So, in thanks to the community that made mugen known for something rather than known for nothing; I always assumed Elecbyte would eventually put mugen itself under the GNU GPL or MIT or some form of Free Software License.

Instead, no, he refuses. It’s insulting. My only two guesses are the fallowing.

1: He’s holding out for the one day when somebody makes their own content and wants to strike a license deal with him for commercial use so he can actually get some money for making mugen.

To that I say, it will be a cold day in Hell. As you have mentioned, there are plenty of functionally better alternatives to Mugen for making a commercial fighting game. They are far easier to work with and far less archaic than Mugen and its clones.

So, if pumping out a fighting game I could go and sale as easily as possible was my one and only goal; then you are right that there are far, far better programs than mugen and Ikemen that I could much more easily use to do exactly that. The fact that I am here should show that my concern for making profit is a small side goal dream and not anything practical. Really, I’m not sure I even have the patience or art skills to make that happen.

2:  Elecbyte wants to keep mugen as a personal project.

To that I say, his choice; but kind of selfish. There is so much people want to do and so many features people want to add. As a personal project,  Elecbyte really does just sit on it for years at a time. So, there really does seem to be no real goal, direction, or purpose with it. Why not liberate it to the masses and let them customize the engine the way they customize the content for it? That’s what ID eventually did with the Doom engine.

I always felt that as some point ownership belongs to the community, not to the original author. That a work can grow to go beyond where it started. It’s like how fans feel ownership of Star Wars. They did, after all, pay for Skywalker Ranch. Where John Carmack and ID saw releasing the engine of Doom to its fans as a thank you for the riches the fans gave them, so that the fans could continue to mod the engine itself and not just wad (data) files for it; Elecbyte was like, 'Nah, screw you guys, Mugen’s mine.'

If Elecbyte would have climbed down off of his high horse at any point over these last twenty years and released mugen to the community that made the name worth something; we’d be talking about forks of mugen rather than forks of mugen clones. The fact that he gave the community no choice but to pry this engine from his teeth so that they could have an engine to run their content that they made by reverse engineering mugen says a lot about Elecbyte. And the fact that you keep saying that Elecbyte will always have some ownership of the engine due to its structure is insulting to me, honestly. Is not the entire point of Ikemen and all mugen clones that we have an engine that we all own that will run this community created content? As opposed to mugen itself which only Elecbyte himself owns. His world, and we just play in it. Because, that’s the perspective I’m coming from when I’m looking for a replacement mugen engine. I want a world licensed so that we all own it. I don't want to play in Elecbyte's world.

As far as making a profit goes, that’s a long shot for anyone. Making a profit is more a pipe dream than anything practical. But, part of MIT License is the ability for people to try for profit if they want to. I’m not sure why that would give you nightmares. It is a logical goal to at least entertain considering the License and the nature of what the engine does.

Why you consider me a nightmare is beyond me. Believe me, if this engine takes off, if I didn’t ask these questions, someone else will. If the engine is not intended to be used in this way, it should not have been licensed in this way. Period.

My goal is to find a properly Free Software Licensed mugen replacement engine that is in no way shape or form owned by Elecbyte that can run content designed for mugen. That’s my goal.

Libre Office is a Free Software program that can read Microsoft Word Documents. So, I no longer need Microsoft Word. I want a Free Software Program that can run content created for mugen so that I no longer need mugen. Like a phoenix from the ashes, I want to see a new Free Software Licensed engine replace mugen entirely.

Not sit on top of mugen files. Not still have pieces of it owned under a third party licence. I want to see the engine replaced from the ground up.

This is where I still have confusion talking with you.

Talking with you, you make it sound like Ikemen Go Gacel sits on top of a crap ton of Mugen files.

Talking with Gacel and Neat Unsou, it makes it sounds like Ikemen Go Gacel just sits on top of common1.cns and a screen pack; two files that can both be replaced easily and the engine could then be entirely under MIT.

So, which is it? Does Ikemen Go Gacel sit on top of essentially the core of mugen files? Or, is it just sitting on top of common1.cns (which was easy to replace with common1.cns.zss, I already did) and all I need to do now is make a screen pack?

Because what I am hearing from you sounds entirely different from what I’m hearing from Gacel and Neat Unsou.

So either you’re misunderstanding, I’m misunderstanding, Gacel and Neat Unsou are misunderstanding, or there is a clear language barrier here that is causing confusion between you and me.
Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 08:55:05 am by EVILED
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#6  June 09, 2019, 01:06:45 pm
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Oh man, the dark side of free software is always going to worry me.

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

If you want to contribute so much and understand that meanwhile there is not a legal way to obtain the original source code in good terms, this is an obscure barelly legal protected by laws reverse engineered copy clone licenced by MIT standards engine, an improvement one of something already existing, owned, claimed and protected from roots.

Plase make that package that you want so much, but for everyone, for the benefit of the whole community, not only for you who need it.

I hope that at last you have understood this legal, mental, emotional and moral barrier that we have, this as you said will be my last reply to you and as I said to you already, take the engine, create your game, sell it, make money and be very happy.
There is no knowledge that is not power
--------------------------------------
MANGEX WEB
Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 05:46:30 pm by MangeX
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#7  June 09, 2019, 08:55:23 pm
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Elecbyte is a dev team not a person lmao
youtube
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Put this on the profile of people who are known/wanted terrorists
that were involved in the September 11th attacks in 2001
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Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#8  June 09, 2019, 09:16:31 pm
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The person known as Elecbyte
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#9  June 09, 2019, 10:54:50 pm
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this is an obscure barelly legal protected by laws reverse engineered copy clone licenced by MIT standards engine,

Is it really legal, though? Because it doesn't really sound like it is legal at all to me. It's clearly not totally under MIT. Which means it's not really in compliance with MIT. And, frankly, parts of it are straight up owned by Elecbyte .

So, if you want my honest opinion, "barely legal" sounds like a very thinly veiled cover for saying 'most likely not legal at all but we're pretending it's legal anyway.'

Which is likely why the idea of commercialization is so bad. Because it would draw the attention from Elecbyte.

Which makes this entire project sound as illegitimate as fudge to me.

At least emulation projects are usually legitimate because they sit on top of they're own code written from the ground up through reverse engineering.

This project just sits on top of code Elecbyte wrote. Lazier than emulation. I guess it reverse engineered and replaced some of it. But still depends on some files from it.

Every time I ask, no one can really give me a straight and honest answer to this question. Which makes me feel that there is something pretty big to hide. Considering different people are giving me conflicting answers as to what is owned by Elecbyte and what isn't.

My goal here is to try to find out if this project is actually legal and if it can go entirely under MIT or not. And every time I ask, you keep telling me no and everyone else keeps telling me yes. So, you are wrong or they are wrong.

You try to give me a giant block of technical information as an answer that is in such broken English that I'm assuming it's coming out of Google translate. But the fact that you keep giving me a giant block of incomprehensible text to what should be simple yes or no answers doesn't make me have any faith in you or this project.

Here. Let's try this as a game. I ask some questions. You give yes or no only as answer. Others can join in too, and let's see if the answers line up.

1: Is this project legal?

2: Does Elecbyte still own files that this project needs to actually launch?

3: Is replacing common1 and the screen pack all that would need to be done to move this entire project (an engine that can launch) over to MIT and remove anything Elecbyte owns (owns meaning actually has intellectual property right to, such as an actual copyright)?

Three questions. Yes or no. Not giant block of Google Translate text.
Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 11:14:47 pm by EVILED
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#10  June 09, 2019, 11:17:43 pm
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Elecbyte is a dev team not a person lmao

Sorry. I always just assumed it was one person. Oddly, no one has corrected me before. Have they ever given a reason for not releasing the code? It's been twenty years and to my knowledge no one has ever turned it into a product. Why not release it after such a long time? I never understood and when I e-mailed them several years ago the only response I got back was that they didn't want to at that time. No reason given. I know it's their code and their choice. But, after 20 years of not turning a profit, why keep it locked away when the community could do something with it instead? It just seems silly to me and kind of selfish.

I've seen so many other projects, way younger than twenty years, release their code; usually either upon financial failure of the project or the tech becoming outdated. If the goal of mugen was to develop a commercially viable engine, that seems to have failed a long time ago. I just don't understand the reasoning for keeping code closed for that long when there seems to be no reason to do so. This isn't the only project I've seen do this. But, I just never understood a reason why.
Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 11:23:24 pm by EVILED
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#11  June 09, 2019, 11:58:56 pm
  • *****
  • i will meditate and then write a really epic post
  • jai ho
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Well, from what I've heard, MUGEN wasnt started as something they were hoping people would buy commercial licenses for but rather a project by a team of university students hoping to create their own engine. They never showed any interest in serious monetization, though there was one time Jeremy Patterson claimed to have obtained a license for Aiduzzi's Rotten Core kickstarter, and someone who was part of Elecbyte got on twitter to confirm they had their blessing. However that kickstarter fell apart from shady mismanagement. Theres no doubt that Elecbyte shelved it, perhaps BECAUSE they weren't going to conceivably recoup the costs of development on the freeware. Like you said, their code their choice. Open source code WOULD be nice, but they ultimately haven't show any interest in that.

I don't think they're just sitting on it in the hopes of one day achieving some breakthrough that will make them a million dollars. I think its a moot point to point out MUGEN has failed as a commercial engine, because a) i don't think thats the goal anymore if it ever was, and b) MUGEN's place in the cultural canon of the internet has been solidified- its an important piece of viral history because of the wave of early 2000s content that was coming from development in the engine. As a piece of freeware, its something impressive the devs can put on their resumes and be done with, the ship has sailed in regards to making money from it or at least in their view it seems. The techs very outdated, the code is sloppy, and the functionalitys limited.
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Put this on the profile of people who are known/wanted terrorists
that were involved in the September 11th attacks in 2001
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- courtesy of Iced
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#12  June 10, 2019, 12:14:57 am
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Oh my God.

This is for anyone who has the same doubt and still can not understand what is being done here and do not look for problems where they do not exist, that's what the laws are for, to find out the obvious.

I hope that this will stop making so much scandal and see all points of view, not just the most convenient parts to a selfish way of seeing things.

All that has to do with mugen, the source code and the way it works is completely owned by elecbyte and belongs to elecbyte; the only permits that were granted were to be able to create tools that help the edition of the materials necessary for the development process on our games that works in the engine.

The advantage of the doom engine is that it was given by the same creators, ikemen on the other hand does not enjoy that blessing and from my point of view, I would prefer to have the approval and permission of elecbyte, instead of using legal gaps that can allow this; that although it is good, it is still a bit strange.

Until we obtain a legitimate permit from the owners, the only thing that can be created is a legalized alternative, although doubtful as this software is.

Why ikemen is barely legal?, it is because it enters in the reverse engineering agreement in which it is possible to investigate and create an alternative that is compatible and interoperable for the files managed by mugen, without the nuclear form of the code being exactly the same.

With this given protection, ikemen is totally free to be licensed under another scheme like MIT so that this alternative can be manipulated and improved as an open source program.

Finally although it has been conceived in unorthodox ways Ikemen is perfectly legal to be used for recreational and commercial purposes.

Its similar are the mentioned emulators and their interaction with the games programmed for their respective platforms.

I recommend that if there are still doubts to investigate more, much more about laws, about international agreements, about common law, about patents, about copyrights, about the legality or not of doing reverse engineering, about respect, about morality and ethics and not only what works for you, which is the free software scheme.

PD. i hate big chunky text blocks too  :megusta:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
There is no knowledge that is not power
--------------------------------------
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Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 12:29:40 am by MangeX
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#13  June 10, 2019, 12:19:19 am
  • avatar
  • *
    • USA
Well, from what I've heard, MUGEN wasnt started as something they were hoping people would buy commercial licenses for but rather a project by a team of university students hoping to create their own engine. They never showed any interest in serious monetization, though there was one time Jeremy Patterson claimed to have obtained a license for Aiduzzi's Rotten Core kickstarter, and someone who was part of Elecbyte got on twitter to confirm they had their blessing. However that kickstarter fell apart from shady mismanagement. Theres no doubt that Elecbyte shelved it, perhaps BECAUSE they weren't going to conceivably recoup the costs of development on the freeware. Like you said, their code their choice. Open source code WOULD be nice, but they ultimately haven't show any interest in that.

I don't think they're just sitting on it in the hopes of one day achieving some breakthrough that will make them a million dollars. I think its a moot point to point out MUGEN has failed as a commercial engine, because a) i don't think thats the goal anymore if it ever was, and b) MUGEN's place in the cultural canon of the internet has been solidified- its an important piece of viral history because of the wave of early 2000s content that was coming from development in the engine. As a piece of freeware, its something impressive the devs can put on their resumes and be done with, the ship has sailed in regards to making money from it or at least in their view it seems. The techs very outdated, the code is sloppy, and the functionalitys limited.

Helpful and true. I heard somewhere a long time ago that someone tried a failed kickstarter but couldn't remember who and what happened to them.

It's just that for most projects (or at least a lot of them) it's usually proper form that if the devs plan to shelf it and do nothing else with it, and a community is still interested and making content for it, it's typically just a given that the code goes under GNU GPL, MIT, BSD or something like that out of a courtesy and thank you to that community. It's generally seen as just the right thing to do.

When Netscape Navigator died, it eventually released and became Firefox. When Sun's Star Office died, it become openoffice.org and eventually Libre Office. When Doom was replaced by ID Tech 2, and 3, and so forth; it was released.

It's just kind of shocking to me that mugen didn't fallow suit.
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#14  June 10, 2019, 12:22:23 am
  • avatar
  • *
    • USA
Oh my God.

This is for anyone who has the same doubt and still can not understand what is being done here and do not look for problems where they do not exist, that's what the laws are for, to find out the obvious.

I hope that this will stop making so much scandal and see all points of view, not just the most convenient parts to a selfish way of seeing things.

All that has to do with mugen, the source code and the way it works is completely owned by elecbyte and belongs to elecbyte; the only permits that were granted were to be able to create tools that help the edition of the materials necessary for the development process on our games that works in the engine.

The advantage of the doom engine is that it was given by the same creators, ikemen on the other hand does not enjoy that blessing and from my point of view, I would prefer to have the approval and permission of elecbyte, instead of using legal gaps that can allow this; that although it is good, it is still a bit strange.

Until we obtain a legitimate permit from the owners, the only thing that can be created is a legalized alternative, although doubtful as this software is.

Why ikemen is barely legal?, it is because it enters in the reverse engineering agreement in which it is possible to investigate and create an alternative that is compatible and interoperable for the files managed by mugen, without the nuclear form of the code being exactly the same.

With this given protection, ikemen is totally free to be licensed under another scheme like MIT so that this alternative can be manipulated and improved as an open source program.

Finally although it has been conceived in unorthodox ways Ikemen is perfectly legal to be used for recreational and commercial purposes.

Its similar are the mentioned emulators and their interaction with the games programmed for their respective platforms.

I recommend that if there are still doubts to investigate more, much more about laws, about international agreements, about common law, about patents, about copyrights, about the legality or not of doing reverse engineering, about respect, about morality and ethics and not only what works for you, which is the free software scheme.

When asked for simple yes or no answers to three questions and not a wall of text, I get a wall of text. You don't fallow instructions well. Plus, I thought you were not replying to me anymore. So much for that, I guess.

this as you said will be my last reply to you and as I said to you already

At least, I think that's what you meant to say. I can't tell. Can someone translate this for me, please?

'This' is a pro-noun that assumes a noun. I am assuming 'this' refers to 'this last reply from me' because I said don't bother replying to me anymore. But, 'this' coming after "I hope that at last you have understood this legal, mental, emotional and moral barrier that we have" in the same paragraph could also be referring to that giant line of text as that giant line of text is contextually the closest thing in the paragraph by text proximity. (Paragraph being used to separate ideas.) But, sense 'this' would make the most logical sense referring to 'this post of yours' I'm going to assume that's what you mean.

There, I think I translated the first word.

Moving on, 'as you said will be my last reply to you.' Well, that makes me feel I translated the first 'this' that you failed to separate with a "," correctly. Proper punctuation is key, and lacking here.

Next, "and as I said to you already." When? You did not say this is your last reply until just then. You can't say you said already, something you didn't already say. That makes no logical sense. I said it might as well be your last reply because you are hard to fallow. But, you didn't say it was your last reply until just then. So, are you referring to what I said as if you said it?

This is the most direct translation of what you said to me in your giant run on sentence.

"This (Meaning either this post of yours or, "I hope that at last you have understood this legal, mental, emotional and moral barrier that we have.") as you said (The best I can guess this means is 'as I suggested this be your last reply to me.) will be my last reply to you (Thank you. But, you lied about that; if that means what I think it means. Because you replied to me again afterwards. Also, you replied in a format that I didn't ask for.)  and as I said to you already."  (Um, no, you did not say this would be your last reply, before just then. At least not in this post. Also, "and" joins concepts together. What are you attempting to join together here?)

A more clear way to say what I think you are trying to say would be, 'As you already said, this will be my last reply to you.' The way you said it, and the way you say everything, doubles back to the subject of the sentence at least twice.

You write in giant run on sentences that you don't separate with proper punctuation. You use a large amount of pro-nouns; but, you never first take the time to establish clearly what the nouns are that these pro-nouns are referring to. You assume that I know what nouns these pro-nouns are referring to. But, I don't. The reason I don't know what nouns your pro-nouns refer to is because you don't break your run on sentences up into proper sentences.  Because of this, your pro-nouns lacking established nouns force the logical flow of your sentence to double back at least twice on the subject of the sentence. This makes your sentence lack a clear subject. The reason for this is your sentence is actually about two to three different sentences, each with two to three different subjects, all thrown together in a giant, garbled, incomprehensible mess of a run on sentence. This makes your sentences very difficult to untangle; which makes fallowing your English a nightmare.
Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 01:20:31 am by EVILED
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#15  June 10, 2019, 12:57:12 am
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Though I have some reservations on the open source “culture” as it were, I’m in agreement that MUGEN being open source would be in precedent, considering how devoted and longstanding our community is. One idea that crossed my mind as I read this post is Eoecbyte is scared of possible legal retribution from an open source, monetizable engine that until then had long been protected under fan art laws when it comes to companies like Capcom and SNK. Considering the dearth of existing assets from copyrighted games that are already coded for the engine, it’s not inconceivable they fear possible liability when some asshole tries to sell a game with ryu scorpion and Batman in it
youtube
●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬♥๑۩۩๑♥▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●
Put this on the profile of people who are known/wanted terrorists
that were involved in the September 11th attacks in 2001
●▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬♥๑۩۩๑♥▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬●
- courtesy of Iced
Re: Crashes, Mugen Dependencies Files , and Questions about Common1 and the License
#16  June 10, 2019, 01:13:26 am
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Though I have some reservations on the open source “culture” as it were, I’m in agreement that MUGEN being open source would be in precedent, considering how devoted and longstanding our community is. One idea that crossed my mind as I read this post is Eoecbyte is scared of possible legal retribution from an open source, monetizable engine that until then had long been protected under fan art laws when it comes to companies like Capcom and SNK. Considering the dearth of existing assets from copyrighted games that are already coded for the engine, it’s not inconceivable they fear possible liability when some asshole tries to sell a game with ryu scorpion and Batman in it

True, that is another thought. In theory, the law should protect them. An engine is separate from the content other people put into it. But, maybe being small and knowing how most people use the engine does cause legal fears. Just because they would be protected, doesn't mean they wouldn't get sued. People can sue for anything, whether it would actually win or nor. And, maybe, Elecbyte is fearful of that. Still, other game engines have come before and opened up without issue.