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What is cheap/balance in the terms of mugen? (Read 1143 times)

Started by Amidweiz, November 16, 2019, 10:47:35 am
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What is cheap/balance in the terms of mugen?
#1  November 16, 2019, 10:47:35 am
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I'm sure this thread has been done before but this is a question that has always come upon me, people tend to throw out X character is cheap or Y character is balanced over the years I've been around here albeit more elaborate than said examples. Does said characters have similar play systems and be somewhat consistent within said system, Do they have to be within a full game and never interact with characters of a different system in fear they might have egregious advantages over another, or is it more on a fundamental level of fighting game principals in general with the do's and don'ts that come along with.  If so is there an agreed upon standard upon what said fundamental fighting games principals are if they happen to differ from commercial fighting game to another.

This post is probably pretty meta and philosophical in nature but this has always been a question on my mind.
Re: What is cheap/balance in the terms of mugen?
#2  November 16, 2019, 11:39:13 am
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 I was actually considering doing a thread on this topic myself, but I was hesitant on it and didn't really get that chance.

 Anyway, as for my take on this, I like to split them in categories. Such examples would be...

- External Balance: This is the kind of character comparison people tend to think of the most when it comes to MUGEN. The idea here is that the balance between characters are no longer self-contained by the same or similar gameplay system, being judged in the most generalized sense possible. This, for the most part, is unfeasible because characters of different gameplay systems were never meant to be built around each other, but people will usually try to pretend it's that way, hence certain gameplay systems may be considered "cheap" to those who aren't capable of considering the context of these comparisons. The closest thing you can even attempt with balance in this type is consider if these unlike characters all share a lot of conventional fighting game concepts with each other that make them, well... conform to how proper fighting games should work traditionally. It's why cheapies are inherently unbalanced, they completely destroy the notion of fighting games and weren't really designed with good gameplay in mind.

- Internal Balance: The type of balance that is usually discussed around full game circles in which characters were designed around each other for a specific gameplay system, which is the far more rational approach at balancing characters. Since they share all the same fundamental quirks, they're for the most part fighting on even ground relatively speaking to, which at that point, balance is now determined if their distinctive moveset and unique personal mini-mechanics were well-executed enough to level the playing field beyond universal mechanics. This also leaves less room for margin of error and "cheap" characters are usually reserved for those meant to be boss types who, while sharing the same universal mechanics, will instead simply have vastly superior moves and unique quirks than everyone else of the same system. This does require higher and more specific standards since you can't just mix-and-match anymore, making it more strict compared to externalized balance.

 As for me, I've always consider feedback that tends toward the latter since I design my characters in a very specific way, which is why I can and will choose to deny criticism such as "this character isn't balanced against -insert system here-" or the classic "it should be PotS style." I would like to discuss more on flaws found in giving and taking feedback, but that should be for another topic.
Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 12:24:03 pm by Nep Heart
Re: What is cheap/balance in the terms of mugen?
#3  November 20, 2019, 05:07:32 pm
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everyone have different standards
and everyone have different point of reference.

for me just easy
have long invincible time and super fast move and non-stop combo and able to exit the hit state is cheap.
My MUGEN Website ==> for All my Characters Stages and Articles
https://beterwork-us.hopto.org
Re: What is cheap/balance in the terms of mugen?
#4  November 20, 2019, 05:59:05 pm
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Re: What is cheap/balance in the terms of mugen?
#5  November 22, 2019, 04:09:18 pm
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able to exit the hit state is cheap.


 What about Burst mechanics? I know DBFC has it in the form of Escape Blast.

that's a huge cost for exit (1.3 round can't use other boost)
but most cheap char can exit very easly at no cost.

invincible time is same
for shayuken type of moves it can have invincible frames since it pay back the cost when landing.
for super moves it can have some 1-8 frames since it cost power bar.

give buff at no cost is cheap.



My MUGEN Website ==> for All my Characters Stages and Articles
https://beterwork-us.hopto.org
Re: What is cheap/balance in the terms of mugen?
#6  November 25, 2019, 04:42:22 am
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a fighting game feels rewarding when the players spend most of their time executing moves to counterplay other moves

- Counterplay to each move such that no single move is superior to others
- attacks should be a tradeoff between speed, damage and risk
- more powerful moves should be harder to access or be conditionally available (such as sub-goals that grant access to OP moves)
- a game between a moderately balanced AI (Lets say Sakuya Izayoi) should last between 30 - 90 sec and should not put the AI in a perpetual hitstate

wat.
Re: What is cheap/balance in the terms of mugen?
#7  December 02, 2019, 06:05:44 am
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I find it hard to really complain if a character is source accurate even when they are unimaginably broken otherwise...

I personally hate it if getting hit once means Im locked into a ridiculously long combo or the other player is immune to punishing block/whiffed moves.

I think you'll be fine as long as you dont have the mindset of not turning your character into the ultimate op badass.