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Attack priorities (Read 18272 times)

Started by PotS, September 22, 2007, 12:03:55 pm
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PotS

Attack priorities
#1  September 22, 2007, 12:03:55 pm
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myself said, January 01, 1970, 01:00:02 am
Quote
You miss the fact in decent gameplay, no matter how you play, you're supposed to trade hits with an opponent without one hit from him and it being over.
Ignoring Reu's chars here, that actually rarely happens in Mugen due to its AWESOME priority system. :buttrox:
Seriously, that only harms the engine IMO because you won't find such thing in real games. In those, if two chars hit each other (and none is benefitting from invulnerability bonuses like Shoryuken's) they'll always trade hits, not check which attack is more leet and wins like Mugen does.
In a perfect world, everyone would disregard the priority parameter on Hitdefs.

myself said, January 01, 1970, 01:00:02 am
Quote
the faqs always talk about the priority of certain hits.
Usually saying that an attack has higher priority means that either:

- Attack is invulnerable at some point. Shoryuken has great priority because of this
- The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)
- That its Clns1 has a fair advantage over the Clsn2, allowing the char to reach the opponent but not the opposite. You can see this with some weapon-wielding chars like Bishamon

Not that it has like a priority of 4 and as such beats attacks with priority 3 or lower, like Mugen does (for most cases).
Yes, 1970! :sugoi:

So, to put it shortly, I've never seen anything like Mugen's priority system in real games, and I believe I've just about checked all the series that matter the most... whether one of the attacks wins or both chars hit each other is always decided based on the criteria I listed on the second quote.

Mugen-wise, that means using "Priority = 4, Hit" on all attacks, and by extension "Priority = 1, Miss" on all throws (although these would need some extra coding in the case of Capcom chars). Projectiles can have whatever you want AFAIK, though I always use 7.
So I'm surprised that even accuracy freaks use awesome stuff like priority 7, the highest, on weak normal attacks. :sugoi: + :wacko:

I've been meaning to do this for my chars for quite a while, but never went ahead with it, afraid that it'd make most of their attacks lose to other chars rather than trading hits whenever possible like in fighting games. But I've had it with that and now have made enough chars to have my own "little group of conventions" :D, so I'm going to start using the values I mentioned, and know two other people who also apparently already do.

Finally, I needed to prove my point, so I made a video showcasing some situations in 3 mainstream games that behave in a totally different way with Mugen chars, even the mostest accuratest ones, where specials and supers are countered by mere normal attacks of varying strength, having both chars trading hits and somewhat proving that all attacks have the same HitDef priority, in Mugen terms.
Made in a short time, I could go on forever showing other examples and other games, but good enough to sum it up I guess. Here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?abhtxwnssjb


Discuss.
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DemonicDrPhil

Re: Attack priorities
#2  September 22, 2007, 12:30:02 pm
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mugen definitely does not act like that sometimes.  either due to people not knowing clsn's or applying weird code invulnerabilities.  I think this goes back to the whole can we apply balance to an engine that is contributed to by an infinite number of people.  In order for this to take any effect we have to get all of those people that bash certain creations based on clsn's to bash them based on this as well.  If every single creation that does not follow these priority rules gets bashed throughout the entire community I think we will begin to see a real standard develop.

It is just that you can't force anyone to abide by it.  Again, can we balance out all creations probably not but standards seem to help.

Good luck with establishing this one.

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PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#3  September 22, 2007, 12:56:04 pm
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Yeah, you got the point. Except I'm not really trying to start a standard as I don't want to force my way of thinking into other people, just pointing out some facts.

Quote
In order for this to take any effect we have to get all of those people that bash certain creations based on clsn's to bash them based on this as well.  If every single creation that does not follow these priority rules gets bashed throughout the entire community I think we will begin to see a real standard develop.
People that complain about Clsn also do this "wrong". ;P And bashing is too much of a strong word for this, it's more like simply informing.
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hjk

Re: Attack priorities
#4  September 22, 2007, 01:28:53 pm
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P.o.t.S. said, September 22, 2007, 12:03:55 pm
So, to put it shortly, I've never seen anything like Mugen's priority system in real games, and I believe I've just about checked all the series that matter the most... whether one of the attacks wins or both chars hit each other is always decided based on the criteria I listed on the second quote.

Mugen-wise, that means using "Priority = 4, Hit" on all attacks, and by extension "Priority = 1, Miss" on all throws (although these would need some extra coding in the case of Capcom chars). Projectiles can have whatever you want AFAIK, though I always use 7.
So I'm surprised that even accuracy freaks use awesome stuff like priority 7, the highest, on weak normal attacks. :sugoi: + :wacko:

I Knew that "Mugen Accuracy SNK Priority System" was
                                      
                                       BULL SH@T


:rofl:         :rofl:         :rofl:           :rofl:







I'll watch the vid later, but based on what you said, I can officially LMFAO!!!
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

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Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 01:38:30 pm by Tee Hee Hee

Renzo F

Re: Attack priorities
#5  September 22, 2007, 03:41:22 pm
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For all this time, my general rule was assigning higher priority values for weaker attacks; the logic behind that was exactly:
Quote
The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)
Normally, weaker attacks are faster than stronger ones.

IMHO, mugen's priority system is not useless; it's just you have a wide variety of options to define the priority of an attack besides this magic number (animation speed, CLSNs, NotHitBy, etc.).

Edit: Dan throw made me laugh.

hjk

Re: Attack priorities
#6  September 22, 2007, 04:06:31 pm
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Renzo [a.k.a. Sachavaca Salvaje] said, September 22, 2007, 03:41:22 pm
For all this time, my general rule was assigning higher priority values for weaker attacks; the logic behind that was exactly:
Quote
The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)

Finally Someone Understands My Pain.:  :'(

Tee Hee Hee (myself) in "Your Problems with Mugen Creation" said, September 22, 2007, 03:41:22 pm
Triggers
Triggers are largely reliable when you are generally coding, but they can encounter problems when you are coding in specifically for CLSN Attack activation for the hitdef. Juggling in particular holds this problem up front and center.
There are many times where I have realized, that a ton of the things I was absolutely coding for in the hitdef, weren't activating properly (I.E. Time = 1; Time = 0; or an animelem that lasted for less than 2 ticks). If you place the CLSN Attack in an animation, where the attacking frame only lasts for 1 tick, or else directly code the hitdef to activate within 1 tick (i.e. time = 6), then only sometimes, you will notice, that the hit will not make contact . If you're not going for accuracy, or whatever, code it for something that activates for a period of 4 ticks, thereby increasing your chances of having the attack properly activate and connect with the opponent.
Movehit activation within specific animelems can also be a pain in certain cases. If that animelem lasts for less than 2 or 3 ticks, quite frequently you'll notice that the char won't activate the hitdef that you defined, meaning, again, that it will not make contact. Make sure the animelem lasts for maybe 3 or more ticks, or else code for more than one animelem.







Renzo [a.k.a. Sachavaca Salvaje] said, September 22, 2007, 03:41:22 pm
For all this time, my general rule was assigning higher priority values for weaker attacks; the logic behind that was exactly:
Quote
The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)

For me doing that is a Yes and No.

Yes, justifiably, because the attack coming out first should make contact first.

No, because that can screw up the balance between one char and another, on any level you put it. That can also screw up the dominance of Hypers over weak normals. In addition, I usually create my priorities based on How Mugen Operates.
Yes there is a CLSN Attack Activation Glitch, but that's just something we have to deal with. Creating based on what Mugen 'governs (in glitches, regular gameplay, or otherwise)' IMO, is how it should be done.  I also believe it is right because MOST other creators make their chars that way as well.
To add higher priorities to some chars, where they don't necessarily belong, would make them Cheap, given the above information.
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
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RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 04:29:58 pm by Tee Hee Hee

PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#7  September 22, 2007, 04:11:48 pm
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Renzo [a.k.a. Sachavaca Salvaje] said, September 22, 2007, 03:41:22 pm
For all this time, my general rule was assigning higher priority values for weaker attacks; the logic behind that was exactly:
Quote
The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)
Normally, weaker attacks are faster than stronger ones.
But, since they're faster, even having priority=1 is enough to beat the strong attacks, no need to give them high priorities.

Quote
Edit: Dan throw made me laugh.
Hehe. I chose Dan and Gouki, probably the weakest and strongest chars in the game, respectively, to show that the unique priority thing is true even in that extreme case.

Quote
Yes there is a CLSN Attack Activation Glitch, but that's just something we have to deal with.
Man, you keep pulling all these glitches out of nowhere. :S
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hjk

Re: Attack priorities
#8  September 22, 2007, 04:15:16 pm
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P.o.t.S. said, September 22, 2007, 04:11:48 pm
Quote
Yes there is a CLSN Attack Activation Glitch, but that's just something we have to deal with.
Man, you keep pulling all these glitches out of nowhere. :S

Nowhere... No.

The quote Renzo showed supported my claim about hitdefs activating late.


He was saying (or at least my interpreation of what he was saying), was that because attacks do not trigger directly at time = 0 or time = 1, but instead a little later, he adds higher priorities to assure that the attack that comes out FIRST gets the hit.


Edit: Highlights
Renzo [a.k.a. Sachavaca Salvaje] said, September 22, 2007, 03:41:22 pm
For all this time, my general rule was assigning higher priority values for weaker attacks; the logic behind that was exactly:
Quote
The hitting portion of the animation comes out quick enough (many attacks actually only hit a tick or two after the char has reached the animation frame that appears to hit)

Normally, weaker attacks are faster than stronger ones.






Edit - Clarification
The post that I quoted from myself had very messy language. :omg:

I tried to clarify what I was talking about by making a few edits to it  :sugoi:

http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=65633.msg541809#msg541809
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 04:24:58 pm by Tee Hee Hee

PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#9  September 22, 2007, 04:23:19 pm
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I was talking about the original games. And it's not a glitch there, it's just how they handle priorities.

Btw HitDefs activate and hit in the exact tick you tell them to, the only delay there is is in the hit char, he only goes to the get hit animation one tick after being hit.
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Renzo F

Re: Attack priorities
#10  September 22, 2007, 04:26:03 pm
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@THH: Not really, P.o.t.s interpretation is the correct for my post.

@P.o.t.s.: I realized is useless after having a brief conversation with you some time ago via PM's (about some issues in my Pocket Zangief). I'm correcting that in my "active" projects.

Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#11  September 22, 2007, 09:53:37 pm
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To support P.o.t.S.' position, I throw some more facts.
KOF 2002

KOF 97

(Here Daimon's attack is very quick so it seems that it has more priority)

SNK vs CAPCOM

(Ken's shoryuken has 9 frames of invulnerability, i.e. it has no CLSN2 box. That's why it beats other attacks)
Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 09:56:44 pm by Elix

hjk

Re: Attack priorities
#12  September 22, 2007, 10:34:02 pm
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Elix said, September 22, 2007, 09:53:37 pm
To support P.o.t.S.' position, I throw some more facts.
KOF 2002

KOF 97

(Here Daimon's attack is very quick so it seems that it has more priority)

SNK vs CAPCOM

(Ken's shoryuken has 9 frames of invulnerability, i.e. it has no CLSN2 box. That's why it beats other attacks)

I was waiting for you... to post that  :sugoi:

That is a great and very KEY point that you just posted. :suttrox:




Elix, though, what are your view on that SNK priority system BTW? I mean since our last discussion of it.


Quote PotS... but I'm not sure if he was referring to the SNK priority system MUGEN B.S. persay

P.o.t.S. said, September 22, 2007, 12:03:55 pm
Mugen-wise, that means using "Priority = 4, Hit" on all attacks, and by extension "Priority = 1, Miss" on all throws (although these would need some extra coding in the case of Capcom chars). Projectiles can have whatever you want AFAIK, though I always use 7.
So I'm surprised that even accuracy freaks use awesome stuff like priority 7, the highest, on weak normal attacks. :sugoi: + :wacko:
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.
Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 10:39:10 pm by Tee Hee Hee

Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#13  September 22, 2007, 11:17:18 pm
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My opinion was formed before I read this topic and before we discussed the issue with P.o.t.S. via MSN. We came to the same conclusion on our own. It is essential for every character which is to be called KOF-accurate (as well as many other games for that matter) to drop using other priority values than 4, Hit, i.e. standard ones. Personally, I see no meaning in using 1, Miss for throws as well. Using 7, Hit for projectiles is not the right thing to do, in my opinion. So my view point will be to just erase the line "Priority = ..." in every HitDef.

Bastard Mami

Re: Attack priorities
#14  September 23, 2007, 12:00:32 am
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i got "proved wrong" for saying the same thing about one year ago :P .. or something like that (maybe pots remembers that), so i stopped telling people about it. i also use priority = 4 for everithing, though i tweak my throws in a different way. and dman, i hate how kof sometimes won't show the clsn1 on certain ticks of certain attacks >.<.

hjk

Re: Attack priorities
#15  September 23, 2007, 12:07:40 am
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Elix said, September 22, 2007, 11:17:18 pm
My opinion was formed before I read this topic and before we discussed the issue with P.o.t.S. via MSN.

Wha...??? - I don't have an MSN account, if that reply was at me.





Elix said, September 22, 2007, 11:17:18 pm
My opinion was formed before I read this topic and before we discussed the issue with P.o.t.S. via MSN. We came to the same conclusion on our own. It is essential for every character which is to be called KOF-accurate (as well as many other games for that matter) to drop using other priority values than 4, Hit, i.e. standard ones. Personally, I see no meaning in using 1, Miss for throws as well. Using 7, Hit for projectiles is not the right thing to do, in my opinion. So my view point will be to just erase the line "Priority = ..." in every HitDef.

Yays   ^_^
LOL, Caddie's the man!! ;)

I'm as real as the runnin, I just happen to rap, Nigaas London, Japan, and i'm scared of dat tap.

I suggest extending my banning, cuz when I come back, it's gonna be hell. You think I was annoying before, oh man, it's on now :)
hjk vs. 99% of MFG. I will win.

RIP Poo Bear Tell my Dead Homie isson, for the year my partner.

Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#16  September 23, 2007, 12:44:31 am
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We = me and P.o.t.S.
R[E]ika said, September 23, 2007, 12:00:32 am
i hate how kof sometimes won't show the clsn1 on certain ticks of certain attacks >.<.
Oh, you mean throws... Yeah... If it'll be interesting to you, I'll tell you how I dealt with throws.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Bastard Mami

Re: Attack priorities
#17  September 23, 2007, 02:15:27 am
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i like it, though i use 2 buttons style throws with missing animation (though i am feeling like changing that, since it detracts from commadn grabs), like sfz3. biggest difference being that my throw's hitdf won't trigger if the oponent is in certain blocking states. aka, fire up kof in training mode, set p2 to block, then try using any grab/throw.

PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#18  September 23, 2007, 10:05:29 am
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Elix said, September 22, 2007, 11:17:18 pm
Personally, I see no meaning in using 1, Miss for throws as well.
Throws should have at least the Miss parameter, otherwise they may trade hits with a regular attack, and leave the opponent stuck in the custom state (though I currently prevent such glitches by discarding p2stateno and using only TargetState).

Quote
Using 7, Hit for projectiles is not the right thing to do, in my opinion.
Depends, I don't see the problem with using 7 on the common type of projectiles, since they only check for priority against other projectiles and are supposed to always trade hits either way. But there's also the "projectile eaters" like Omega Rugal's and Haou Shoukouken... those may actually have some kind of priority checking, dunno.
Then there are projectiles that can be hit by normal attacks as well (can't think of any atm though ;P) and yes in that case I can see how using priority 7 could be wrong. Need to make some tests in Mugen to see how it handles the priority checking between an attack and a projectile/helper. *takes note*

Quote
i got "proved wrong" for saying the same thing about one year ago  .. or something like that (maybe pots remembers that), so i stopped telling people about it. i also use priority = 4 for everithing, though i tweak my throws in a different way. and dman, i hate how kof sometimes won't show the clsn1 on certain ticks of certain attacks >.<.
I don't. Would be nice to see that topic again.
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Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#19  September 23, 2007, 11:23:03 am
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I agree with using priority parameters for some projectiles. It may be helpful for some, for example, Kula's Diamond Breath, Igniz' Divine Arrow, Kyo's Orochinagi which always beat other's normal projectile but neglects each other at the same time. But then again, the standards are needed for priority values, not just 7, Hit for all projectiles. And yes, there are attacks which can hit projectiles (Kyo's Aragami/Dokugami :sugoi:). And in the case of projectiles having Priority = 7, Hit I'm not sure what would happen.
P.o.t.S. said, September 23, 2007, 10:05:29 am
Throws should have at least the Miss parameter, otherwise they may trade hits with a regular attack, and leave the opponent stuck in the custom state (though I currently prevent such glitches by discarding p2stateno and using only TargetState).
I think throws have more "priority" over other attacks here, though I need to make some tests in KOF yet. Do you remember how P1 is invincible to projectile when P2 is grabbed (if projectile was fired at the same tick when P1's grab frame has appeared)? I used NotHitBy trigger at Time = 0 for this.

PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#20  September 23, 2007, 11:30:55 am
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Will change my projectiles to 4 as well, but first need to test if that affects how they behave against other chars' projectiles.

Elix said, September 23, 2007, 11:23:03 am
I think throws have more "priority" over other attacks here, though I need to make some tests in KOF yet. Do you remember how P1 is invincible to projectile when P2 is grabbed (if projectile was fired at the same tick when P1's grab frame has appeared)? I used NotHitBy trigger at Time = 0 for this.
The Mugen bug happens when the char is hit just as the throw connects, not when he has just changed states AFAIK, so I'm not sure that can prevent it.
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Bastard Mami

Re: Attack priorities
#21  September 23, 2007, 03:37:48 pm
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iirc, in kof (at least since kof2001, that is when i got it more consistently), you are invincible to projectiles if you hit the oponent in teh tick the projectile hits you (or is about to hit you), i got a lot of those moment far C - ing iori users using angel, teh projectile would go right through her.

Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#22  September 23, 2007, 05:20:30 pm
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I've made some tests to find out that I was right: the moment throw is triggered you become invincible, well, IF throw is succesful. You can see clearly Iori's CLSN1 covering Kyo's CLSN2 yet Kyo's throw won:

PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#23  September 25, 2007, 11:14:33 am
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Looks like we were talking about two different things then, you mentioned a KOF gameplay bit and I thought you meant a Mugen glitch that sometimes happens. Yeah, what you posted should prevent the latter in that case (assuming you mean something like state 800 being invulnerable).
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Chosen_01

Re: Attack priorities
#24  September 25, 2007, 04:01:05 pm
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Quote
so I'm going to start using the values I mentioned, and know two other people who also apparently already do.

OMG Thank You!

I wish someone created a standard for this. I would definitly make all my future works following it. It will also make placing such characters together and not get Mugen-ish results. I swear if someone makes this a standard, I will personally fix all the damn priorities as a new workshop project just to make it all compatible.  ;P

Oh, and the vid was a great example of this.

PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#25  September 26, 2007, 11:22:52 am
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Chosen_01 said, September 25, 2007, 04:01:05 pm
I will personally fix all the damn priorities as a new workshop project just to make it all compatible.  ;P
It's just as simple as opening all the state files in Notepad+ and mass replacing all the priority parameters.
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Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#26  September 26, 2007, 03:09:29 pm
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Cybaster

Re: Attack priorities
#27  September 26, 2007, 03:17:57 pm
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He meant Notepad++, with syntax color (even for Mugen code, if you add it) and HTML viewer (well, those are the two main features I can think of, there are many more)

Bastard Mami

Re: Attack priorities
#28  September 26, 2007, 04:57:35 pm
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you can batch replace "priority" with "priority= 4,hit;" , then modify the throws by hand.

Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#29  September 26, 2007, 05:24:07 pm
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I always do this manually, but I'll be glad if you present me to some batch commands :)

K.O.D

Re: Attack priorities
#30  September 26, 2007, 05:29:23 pm
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I might follow this new priority system,but the thing that worries me is playability with other characters.

Elix said, September 26, 2007, 05:24:07 pm
I always do this manually, but I'll be glad if you present me to some batch commands :)

Same here.

Chosen_01

Re: Attack priorities
#31  September 27, 2007, 06:33:40 pm
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P.o.t.S. said, September 26, 2007, 11:22:52 am
Chosen_01 said, September 25, 2007, 04:01:05 pm
I will personally fix all the damn priorities as a new workshop project just to make it all compatible.  ;P
It's just as simple as opening all the state files in Notepad+ and mass replacing all the priority parameters.

True. I'll check it out. I never really thought Notepad+ was necessary until now.

I really think this should be stickied for developers. Can someone set maybe a few standards so I can change a few for my creations? Ex: One for Capcom styled, SNK, CvS...

It can be updated by those who know the priorities of all the games. Again, I was waiting for this to be mentioned and I think it's a good idea. I would do it myself, but I'm not too good with the technical stuff. :P

PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#32  September 28, 2007, 10:18:09 am
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Chosen_01 said, September 27, 2007, 06:33:40 pm
Can someone set maybe a few standards so I can change a few for my creations? Ex: One for Capcom styled, SNK, CvS...
It's the same 4,Hit for all games, only throws vary AFAIK.


Elix said, September 26, 2007, 05:24:07 pm
I always do this manually, but I'll be glad if you present me to some batch commands :)
1- Get Notepad++ at  http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net
2- Use it to open all the state files you want to modify
3- Search > Replace (or Ctrl + H), with these options:
       Find what: priority
       Replace with: priority= 4,hit;
       Match whole word only (so it doesn't mess up sprpriority)
          Replace in all opened documents
4- Manually fix the priorities of each throw, preferably to 1,Miss

Alternatively, in step 3, you can replace one priority type at a time ("priority=7,Hit" by "priority=4,Hit" and so on) to avoid afecting Miss type of priorities, but that isn't as reliable because different creators use a different ammount of empty spaces in those lines, so you'd have to be looking for "priority=3,Hit", "priority = 3, Hit" etc.
This is how I did it for my chars, but that was only possible because I know how I wrote it in each one.
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Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 10:32:39 am by P.o.t.S.

Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#33  September 28, 2007, 05:59:37 pm
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Many thanks.
Oh, you've changed that disturbing avatar :sugoi:

Bastard Mami

Re: Attack priorities
#34  September 29, 2007, 01:30:42 am
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yeah, no more pedro ...

Leon Belmont

Re: Attack priorities
#35  September 29, 2007, 01:57:50 am
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After reading through the topic I guess I can conclude that -every- attack (excluding throws) whether they -seem- to have higher priority or not, actually doesn't (in the case of Shoryuken), and needs Priority = 4, Hit. And projectiles also use 4, Hit. Right?

Bastard Mami

Re: Attack priorities
#36  September 29, 2007, 01:59:54 am
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in teh case of capcom games there might be a few exceptions, mostly based on the fact that deeper research is needed because we can not see the clsns.

Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#37  September 29, 2007, 11:11:22 am
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Siu Wong said, September 29, 2007, 01:57:50 am
After reading through the topic I guess I can conclude that -every- attack (excluding throws) whether they -seem- to have higher priority or not, actually doesn't (in the case of Shoryuken), and needs Priority = 4, Hit. And projectiles also use 4, Hit. Right?
That's right with a few exceptions (some unique projectiles in KOF).

PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#38  September 29, 2007, 12:36:42 pm
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Elix said, September 29, 2007, 11:11:22 am
That's right with a few exceptions (some unique projectiles in KOF).
My current theory (lol seriousness) is that how some projectiles nullify others isn't based on a priority system but more like on a "hitby" system, as in DM projectiles can only be hit by other DM's (and Rugal's would be considered a DM).
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Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#39  September 29, 2007, 03:16:11 pm
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P.o.t.S. said, September 29, 2007, 12:36:42 pm
My current theory (lol seriousness) is that how some projectiles nullify others isn't based on a priority system but more like on a "hitby" system, as in DM projectiles can only be hit by other DM's (and Rugal's would be considered a DM).
The next step would be a realisation of this feature in MUGEN. If you have any ideas on this also, tell us, P.o.t.S. :)

PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#40  September 29, 2007, 03:32:55 pm
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When it comes to helper projectiles it's just that, different HitBy attributes, but for standard projectiles I don't even think it's possible.
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Bastard Mami

Re: Attack priorities
#41  September 29, 2007, 05:32:58 pm
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i am refining projectiles atm, damn ninja gaiden.... so, talk more on what you think about it. for what i remember on kof projectiles atm.

there are long and short traveling projectiles, mobo but i had to type it. there is no real difference in priority between them.

while most dm projectiles have higher priority , there are exceptions, like k9999-s dm, which can be neutered by another projectile, though in it-s case it keeps on animating, even if it will not hit anymore.

when two projectiles collide if they have the same "priority" both get cancelled and dissapear.

if a projectile of a higher "priority" hits another of smaller priority, it keeps on going and still hits you as much as it was supossed to hit you? , this has to be tested by either using a regular priority projectile against a multi hit super projectile like rugal-s, another test is using a slow projectile, like athena-s psycho ball, against another slow projectile, like ryo-s weak haohshokohken, in a way so ryo-s barely hits the first one and athena gets enough time to throw a second one.

note that there are three types of projectile reflection, 1 just eats the projectile ala yama-s weak qcf+a, 2 reflects a generic projectile, ala kula-s qcb+ punch, 3 return the same projectile ala athena-s psycho reflector.

a dm like athena-s shining crystal bit uses projectiles in a fashion similar to k9999 except that the projectiles are hgiher priority as they are still able to hit, even if they eat a projectile.

should we assume helper projectiles for higher control? i never liked mugen-s native projectiles anyway.

PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#42  September 29, 2007, 06:26:28 pm
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Quote
should we assume helper projectiles for higher control? i never liked mugen-s native projectiles anyway.
I dropped Mugen's as soon as I could, right on the first "projectiled" char I did.

[E]arly Morning Poison said, September 29, 2007, 05:32:58 pm
if a projectile of a higher "priority" hits another of smaller priority, it keeps on going and still hits you as much as it was supossed to hit you? , this has to be tested by either using a regular priority projectile against a multi hit super projectile like rugal-s, another test is using a slow projectile, like athena-s psycho ball, against another slow projectile, like ryo-s weak haohshokohken, in a way so ryo-s barely hits the first one and athena gets enough time to throw a second one.
Some tests I did just now in 98:

"High priority" versus regular:

- Ryo's DM Haou Shoukouken   VS  Rugal's Reppuken -> HS negates R and still hits
- Ryo's SDM Haou Shoukouken VS  Rugal's Reppuken -> HS negates R and still does full hits

"High priority" versus "high priority":

- Ryo's DM Haou Shoukouken   VS  Omega Rugal's Gravity Smash -> Both are negated
- Ryo's SDM Haou Shoukouken VS  Omega Rugal's Gravity Smash -> HS negates GS and still does full hits

- Yuri's DM Haou Shoukouken   VS  Omega Rugal's Gravity Smash -> Both are negated
- Yuri's SDM Haou Shoukouken VS  Omega Rugal's Gravity Smash -> HS negates GS and still does full hits

- Ryo's DM Haou Shoukouken   VS  Ryo's SDM Haou Shoukouken  -> SDM wins and does full hits
- Ryo's SDM Haou Shoukouken VS  Ryo's SDM Haou Shoukouken  -> Both are negated

- Ryo's DM Haou Shoukouken   VS Yuri's DM Haou Shoukouken   -> Both are negated
- Ryo's DM Haou Shoukouken  VS  Yuri's SDM Haou Shoukouken   -> Yuri's goes through and does full hits
- Ryo's SDM Haou Shoukouken VS  Yuri's SDM Haou Shoukouken  -> Ryo's goes through but loses one hit (hits 4 times)

- Yuri's SDM Haou Shoukouken VS  Yuri's SDM Haou Shoukouken  -> Both are negated

Take your conclusions... Yuri/Ryo examples make it look somewhat inconsistent...

Edit: Ryo's SDM do negate each other.

Edit2: After some discussion with [E] and more testing we've come to the conclusion that it's all about two attributes: what kind of projectile can it trade hits with (HitBy), and how many hits it can trade.

Rugal's Reppuken -> can trade with specials once
Omega Rugal's Gravity Smash -> can trade with DM once

Ryo's DM Haou Shoukouken -> can trade with DM/SDM once
Ryo's SDM Haou Shoukouken-> can trade with SDM five times

Yuri's DM Haou Shoukouken -> can trade with DM/SDM once
Yuri's SDM Haou Shoukouken-> can trade with SDM once
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Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 07:33:33 pm by P.o.t.S.

Bastard Mami

Re: Attack priorities
#43  September 29, 2007, 06:51:03 pm
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so, how to implement that with helpers .. we are talking about at least 4 levels of priority there, whitout any priority flag in play.

what you found supports the shining crystal bit and k9999's dm just fine.

for having two helper projectiles negating. they hit each other and they just hitoverride on P, then dissapear while creating a explod that does the dissapear animation, that to avoid one projectile "grabbing" the other projectile if they must put p2 on a custom state. that could work with the lowest priority ones.

then we need a general method to have them apply priority.

[EDIT]

as a log that will support the theory we need the amount of hits a projectile can do, and the amount of hits a projectile can receive.

we could use one var in the projectile's states and it decreases as the projectile hits p2, until it should not hit anymore.

about getting hit once the projectile takes a hit, it should dissapear, to avoid getting grabbed. but instead of dissapearing to a normal state it should pass the amount of this it has taken to the new projectile as well as creating a new one. though that can interfere with the root's projectile detection.

to pass parameters, the helper id should work if only one is needed.

[EDIT]

by being grabbed, i do not mean a normal throw, as projectiles can't get throw and that should eb done via  anohitby, i am talking about another projectile that might put it in a custom state.
Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 08:08:45 pm by [E]arly Morning Poison

Chosen_01

Re: Attack priorities
#44  October 04, 2007, 07:38:16 pm
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All this information is very helpful so far. I changed my favorite CvS characters over so far, but I think I'll wait for the KOF ones. I still don't get KOF priorities sometimes. Whenever I play the CPU, it always appears to get a priority advantage (especially that jerk God Rugal) but that's not really the case. Sure feels good to use it as an excuse for losing to a AI perfect....lol

Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#45  October 04, 2007, 08:26:14 pm
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It's been said too many times... Priority = 4,Hit for all attacks. You should basically remove all priority parameters from HitDefs.

-SyLar-

Re: Attack priorities
#46  March 21, 2008, 03:19:27 pm
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sorry for reviving old topic.

the video posted had answered a few questions i had regarding what i thought was a cheat in cvs example yun hiting me out of my level 3 a few ticks after i performed it.

wat i still dont understand is how to implement the projectile priority :S

for instance with kyos orochinagi (vsing itself) if using cvs2 leveling system i am under the impression that level3 > level2 > level1  and that if the same level meets each other they negate e.g. lv3 vs lv3 so how could you set it up so that this works??

Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#47  March 21, 2008, 04:42:00 pm
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M:ken said, March 21, 2008, 03:19:27 pm
i am under the impression
But not sure? Lvl 2 Orochinagi hits 2 times, lvl3 hits 3 times, right? It's just a matter of triggering HitDef and ChangeState/HitOverride. Helpful triggers are
NumTarget
MoveHit
target,MoveType = H
target,Time
Choose for your needs among these... and others ;P

PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#48  March 22, 2008, 01:51:41 am
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In Street Fighter (and derivative games like CvS) it's usually just a matter of how many hits each projectiles does, for instance Lv3 Shinkuu Hadouken (5 hits) can negate a Lv1 (3 hits) and still hit the opponent twice. Pretty basic when compared to KOF or Vampire.

They changed this a bit in CvS2 in some cases though, multi-hit special projectiles like Gouki's red fireball (3 hits) can only negate one hit of others. Not sure if that's a general rule in that game or just happens to that projectile, though, haven't had to check any other cases (I'm guessing charged Kaiser Wave can still negate 3). But what am I talking about, you only asked about the first paragraph. ;P
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Re: Attack priorities
#49  March 22, 2008, 02:23:44 am
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i thought that wud be the case in cvs. i cant get the hit override to work tho helper keeps changing into a clone

Elix

Re: Attack priorities
#50  March 22, 2008, 08:36:36 am
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M:ken said, March 22, 2008, 02:23:44 am
i thought that wud be the case in cvs. i cant get the hit override to work tho helper keeps changing into a clone
This question is for another forum branch, but make sure the StateDef you use in HitOverride has a defined anim.

Ohsky

Re: Attack priorities
#51  March 23, 2008, 02:44:48 am
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Very interesting thread about an issue i always have noticed in mugen, many noobish questions came to mind: why some chars hit me and i couldn´t hit them at the same time when i do the attack at the opponent?. Pots put a curious example in the video when, in reality i only played mugen since a year and some months ago, and kof 2002 since five years ago (always in arcade , in saloons, recreative rooms or wathever it is called, paying 0.5€ each time), no other 2d fighitng game in a lot of years. I always noticed what he pointed, and that his idea of an standard is good, but never to be used against anyone creator who don´t fits that parameters. Don´t use that as another excuse to attack people, right?. Mugen is a vast free world and standards are only part of dogmatic communities.

haha, drama in the mugen world comes in the same way that drama in real life: imbalance between characters. That´s why i like mugen. That´s why i STILL use mugen.
Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 02:52:14 am by Ohsky

He-Man

Re: Attack priorities
#52  March 23, 2008, 05:50:19 pm
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Elix said, September 22, 2007, 09:53:37 pm
SNK vs CAPCOM

(Ken's shoryuken has 9 frames of invulnerability, i.e. it has no CLSN2 box. That's why it beats other attacks)

Hmm - that's the reason why he always succeeds punching my flaming buttocks off when I try to jump at him. Do you have any more of illustrations like these from other character's anywhere? It is intressting to know about this.
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PotS

Re: Attack priorities
#53  March 23, 2008, 10:47:36 pm
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Just run the game with debug dipswitches on, any decent emulator can do it.
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Cyanide

Re: Attack priorities
#54  April 05, 2008, 12:46:13 pm
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Amusing myself for a while. Noticed a few other things that kinda show where KoF's priority system actually takes hold (no it's no different to what's been said already 4 = correct)

But a lot of moves don't actually go by a continuous mugen convention we have of clsn1's and cls2's should overlap so hits can trade.

I set up a couple of macros for joes tiger kick, a move that has reliably pummeled me out of many a kick punch or anything else. It has a rather large black hitbox that extends well beyond the bit of him that can be hurt, as most basics and a lot of specials don't have that expanse of hitbox they get hurt. Did this with 2 joes at once, they only traded hits when the black box came into contact with the white one.

Other stuff. Autoguard isn't really set via the move's ability to hit low or high. But rather where the move is hitting from. You always think of low attacks as being crouching or special ones that hit low but looking at ryo's Joudan Uke and the other one, the box doesn't extend above/below his knee. (autoguard in 2k2 is denoted by a cream coloured hitbox)

Other attacks with it, like ralfs tackle can be beaten from above as the cream hitbox is only in front of him and to about his head. While his galactica phantom upon reaching it's lowest point all turns cream and stays that way until he's just about finished the move. I think bunker buster can be beaten if you're stupidly lucky and get behind maxima before he takes off and kick him then. The box is in front, not behind and there's lots of non invulnerable hitbox right behind him.

Most basics have a purple or purple grey box. This seems to be character independant and i'm not sure if it has any effect. Colours varied in PSP over about 6 attacks so it's possibly BG based.

Projectiles and anti air uppercuts share a black hitbox 0,0,0. I think this indicates that that part of the attack will not trade blows with anything. Invincibility just removes the hitboxes.

So although KoF doesn't use a 4/3/7/whatever priority system priority is provided by hitbox placement. Hence why some moves seem to have more priority than others.


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