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Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles (Read 233374 times)

Started by Roman55, October 30, 2012, 09:02:49 pm
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Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#381  April 13, 2019, 02:56:37 pm
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the last jedi was kinda sucky. especially, the bit where luke thought that killing his nephew was a good idea because he predicted(?) that he was gonna be evil?

a very contradictory thing to do, especially from the guy who almost died trying to redeem his evil father.
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Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#382  April 13, 2019, 05:42:26 pm
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TLJ is an interesting film in that it makes you think it's pretty smart when you walk out of the theater but it falls apart when you rewatch it and the plot twists no longer shock you.

Episode VI was "Return of the Jedi" and the eponymous Jedi is not who the audiences expected at first. So instead of Rey taking on Skywalker as title or surname (or worse, somehow revealing she was related to Luke and Leia all along) there must be some misdirection at play here. So maybe the title refers to Leai and/or Kylo since they're the only living familiy members of Luke Skywalker?

Maybe force ghost Vader comes back as Anakin Skywalker to kill force ghost Palpatine.
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#383  April 13, 2019, 06:01:35 pm
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The Last Jedi was a Star Wars movie that doesn't care what you think about Star Wars.  The whole message was about the self-destructiveness that comes from clinging so desperately to the past and a perceived idea of how things are "supposed to be."  They didn't want to just follow a fanboys checklist of "these are the things that you are allowed to do in Star Wars" and personally I feel like it was a stronger movie for it.
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#384  April 13, 2019, 06:32:08 pm
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It only tried to make you go "holy shit that's cool" but it didn't even bother having it make sense with anything else - not with the rest of the series, but also not even with itself. Breaking your expectations is fine, but you should still expect it to make sense.
It also tried too hard to ignore the deference you would expect - Luke tossing aside the lightsaber like it was just a dumb rock set the tone for the whole thing. This isn't a bad thing in itself and it's nice that some of it was funny, but there's just so much of it that it went straight into meme material, and that's just terrible.
Yes, there were good ideas, and a good attempt at making a point, but it was just executed in a terrible way.

No one went in expecting a checklist of things you're allowed to do in Star Wars. People disliked how episode 7 was too much of a copy of 4. People wanted something new.
Luke's ghost battle was a great way to do something new and unexpected, and it really was jaw-dropping, but then it fucks everything up by killing him anyway. If they were going to kill him, it made no sense to not make him come in person, but it was too busy inserting more cool and more messiah complex that ended up completely pointless.

Episode VI was "Return of the Jedi" and the eponymous Jedi is not who the audiences expected at first.
... Wait, who did people expect the Jedi to be ? Episode 5 was all about Yoda training Luke to be a Jedi and we already saw Obi-Wan as a Force Ghost. Who else were people thinking about ? Not Vader, was it ?
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Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 06:45:00 pm by Byakko
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#385  April 13, 2019, 06:35:29 pm
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The whole message was about the self-destructiveness that comes from clinging so desperately to the past and a perceived idea of how things are "supposed to be."
But it's not. At the end of the movie nobody learns absolutely anything and everyone still thinks "sith bad, jedi good".

Rey doesn't learn shit from Luke, Luke doesn't learn shit from Yoda about how to reform the Jedi and Yoda doesn't even burn the goddamn books Rey later picks up. Nobody is any wiser about the failings of the Jedi at the end of the movie, and nobody knows how to adress them in the future.

Luke becomes even more of a messianic figure than he was before, and people are clinging to the legend of the Jedi harder than before.

Episode VIII tries to bullshit you into thinking it makes a point about the black and white morality of the original trilogy, but it ultimately says nothing.

Edit:
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... Wait, who did people expect the Jedi to be ? Episode 5 was all about Yoda training Luke to be a Jedi and we already saw Obi-Wan as a Force Ghost. Who else were people thinking about ? Not Vader, was it ?
Well the title is ambiguous so you can interpret it as "Return of Luke" or "Return of the Jedi (Order)" but I'm on the camp that believes its meant to be Vader since his return from the dark side is what brings the conflict of the movie to an end.
Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 06:49:57 pm by Foobs
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#386  April 13, 2019, 06:55:30 pm
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The Last Jedi was a Star Wars movie that doesn't care what you think about Star Wars.  The whole message was about the self-destructiveness that comes from clinging so desperately to the past and a perceived idea of how things are "supposed to be."  They didn't want to just follow a fanboys checklist of "these are the things that you are allowed to do in Star Wars" and personally I feel like it was a stronger movie for it.
so to make it different from how star wars are "supposed to be.", they should fuck up everything about luke's character and make him as far away as possible from what he was in the original movies?
he was brave, rebellious, cheerful and kind back then. but they completely (intentionally) botched him in TLJ, they made him gloomy, cowardly, obnoxious, and kinda idiotic for trying to kill his nephew.
he was also very useless in the movie. his biggest achievement was tricking kylo into fighting his spirit, a move that actually killed him.

im not even a fan of star wars, i actually somewhat dislike it. but they could've made TLJ different without destroying luke's character.
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Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#387  April 13, 2019, 07:01:01 pm
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so to make it different from how star wars are "supposed to be.", they should fuck up everything about luke's character and make him as far away as possible from what he was in the original movies?
he was brave, rebellious, cheerful and kind back then. but they completely (intentionally) botched him in TLJ, they made him gloomy, cowardly, obnoxious, and kinda idiotic for trying to kill his nephew.
he was also very useless in the movie. his biggest achievement was tricking kylo into fighting his spirit, a move that actually killed him.

im not even a fan of star wars, i actually somewhat dislike it. but they could've made TLJ different without destroying luke's character.

People like to forget that in the original Star Wars Luke Skywalker was a teenager who was forced to watch everyone he ever considered family die, got dragged into a war he had nothing to do with, forced to shoulder the fate of an entire galaxy himself, had two mentors die in front of him before they could finish teaching him what to he was supposed to do, accidentally made out with his own sister, had his hand cut off, found out his dad was Space Hitler and then had to watch his dad die too.  As much as everyone wants to romanticize Luke as some perfect godly hero, there's no way he comes out of the original trilogy without being a total mental wreck.

But whatever.  I thought it was really good movie and I don't owe anyone any justification of that.  I already know that when people get mad about Star Wars they stay mad forever so I'm not going to let that ruin my enjoyment of the films.
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#388  April 13, 2019, 07:05:44 pm
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Yeah, it's definitely because people can't change their mind, not because it's actually bad even if you do find things that you like in it (good for you, more power).
It's fine to recognize that something is bad but you still like it.
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Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#389  April 13, 2019, 07:11:23 pm
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Man, there are still people arguing about Han shooting first so don't even pretend that Star Wars fans aren't willing to cling on to petty grievances.
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#390  April 13, 2019, 07:16:25 pm
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I'm not pretending anything, that just doesn't mean there's even a reasonable controversy over TLJ's hidden quality. Even outside of Star Wars, it has notable defects.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#391  April 13, 2019, 07:41:16 pm
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Personally, i'm not much of a Star Wars fan, but i do have hopes for this movie.
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#392  April 13, 2019, 09:23:52 pm
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I'm not pretending anything, that just doesn't mean there's even a reasonable controversy over TLJ's hidden quality. Even outside of Star Wars, it has notable defects.
Man, c'mon, don't be ridiculous. The movie is among the highest reviewed movies in the franchise, it earned a CinemaScore of "A", and it made over a billion dollars at the box office. By no means are these perfect representations of what the majority of filmgoers think about the movie (for example: critic reviews do not necessarily align with the tastes of general audiences, but they tend to track relarively closely; CinemaScores are highly inflated and most movies tend to get at minimum a B+ as long as they aren't disastrous, but they are the only scientific polling about what average moviegoers think, and can't be manipulated or get review bombed like the user scores on Rotten Tomatoes or IMDB; making tons of money at box office doesn't necessarily guarantee quality as the Transformers films prove, but in general, movies with bad word of mouth tank at the box office; etc), but they're the best tools available. And they all point to the fact that TLJ was pretty well received.

But this by no means invalidates anyone's negative opinion about the movie! Anyone is completely and totally free to like or dislike the movie without being dismissed as being a loon who is pretending to ignore that there exists some objective quantification of a movie's quality that they disagree with!
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#393  April 13, 2019, 11:06:28 pm
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I did say you can still enjoy a movie that has notable flaws and big moments that seriously don't make sense. It's a big spectacle, and it does have major jaw-dropping moments, it's enough to like it and for it to have great reviews and great numbers and for you to have a good time watching it. Like Foobs said, it can be good as you watch it and then it just clicks as you walk out that there were writing decisions that made no sense.

It still has critically bad writing decisions and directing choices that are completely broken, as a part of the Star Wars universe and also as a standalone space sci-fi movie. It just doesn't stop people from enjoying the rest of it, this isn't a contradiction. It's possible that a lot of people like a bad movie ! People should understand that more and not be ashamed of what they like and not immediately judge a thing as either completely white or completely black and hunt down anyone who thinks the opposite. You can find flaws in a movie you like and you can find good parts in a movie that pisses you off.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 11:18:45 pm by Byakko
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#394  April 14, 2019, 12:01:15 am
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And maybe also people should stop passing off their own personal opinion as objective fact and accept that just because you are upset about something does not make you right.  Just because a person doesn't like something doesn't mean that it is "completely broken" or a failure on every single level, or that other people who do like that thing should be treated like they're doing something wrong or have to apologize for their own feelings.
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#395  April 14, 2019, 12:11:44 am
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I'm honestly still surprised it made such a big deal because as far as I found it, it was a boring film.  Nothing really gets accomplished except realizing that Snoke was a bigger no one than what they were trying to make a big deal out of Rey being no one special.  Heck, even the whole light-speed ramming thing that people like to take from it as the casual viewer's silver lining isn't that special, seen similar scenes before and it still was pretty stupid all around.

If it was a movie that was intended to be made without regard to your opinion as to what makes a Star Wars movie, at least it could have had the decency to have been an interesting, engaging movie.  And, well, I was interested and engaged if they were going to do anything with Phasma at the very least.  They didn't in the end, making her more useless than who she was replacing with Boba Fett in his run in the original movies, but it's something.
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#396  April 14, 2019, 12:22:11 am
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Just because a person doesn't like something doesn't mean that it is "completely broken" or a failure on every single level, or that other people who do like that thing should be treated like they're doing something wrong or have to apologize for their own feelings.
I literally, explicitly said the exact opposite of both these things you act like I said.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Re: Star Wars Thread: The Rise of running out of witty titles
#397  April 14, 2019, 12:24:37 am
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This is getting kinda contentious, as all TLJ conversations tend to go. Can't we all just agree that some people liked the movie and some people didn't, and both are perfectly valid and no one is pretending to enjoy a bad movie or hate a good movie?