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Cloning MUGEN's errors (Read 41708 times)

Started by Sepp, January 26, 2009, 10:01:38 pm
Cloning MUGEN's errors
#1  January 26, 2009, 10:01:38 pm
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One point that will be brought up about any NewMugen Project is compatibility, and how far it will go in making sure existing MUGEN chars and stages work just like before.

Most of the points I could think of right away are mentioned in this discussion from a few minutes ago:

IRC chat, #MUGEN said:
<[Sepp]> and there will be conflicts of what to drop in order to make it better and not just copy mugen's mistakes.
<[Sepp]> anyway it looks like a good project so far
<Donuts> he'll probably need to decide that for himself
<Donuts> unless he can get ppl to discuss it in a proper manner
<[Sepp]> XD
<Donuts> im not even at all sure of where normal mugen has problems
<Donuts> apart from crashing after a while
<Donuts> he only annouced the projecty recently?
<[Sepp]> well i would be for going his own way whereever possible because nobody needs a second mugen. it only makes sense if we get a better mugen in the end. even if that means that only a few or maybe no MUGEN chars will work on xnaMugen without updates. that would be okay for me; i suppose some people would become updaters and update a lot of creations. and a lot of authors would update their own things. and for the rest, forget about it and mo
<[Sepp]> ve on. but i'm sure a lot of people would also love to see a 100% compatible new mugen where their 200 char select screen works just like  before
<Donuts> of course
<Donuts> if all creations had to be updated or recoded that would be a bummer
<[Sepp]> yeah, he annonuced it only 8 days ago [correction: more than 8 days, but still!]
<Donuts> only 8 days ago huh
<Donuts> seems its quite far ahead
<[Sepp]> but, you see, mugen is very very very lax in its behavior. it allows a lot of things to work. even wrong things that shouldn't even work at all. it's kind of like Internet Explorer. it displays even the most broken webpages. =)
<Donuts> hahah
<Donuts> this project should fix things
<Donuts> would be excellent to get a new improved mugen
<Donuts> that allows much more
<[Sepp]> Yup.

If you have another perspective or point to add to the discussion, feel free!
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Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#2  January 26, 2009, 10:41:18 pm
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It should be just like the dos mugen days, if people wanted to keep their old characters collections to keep on working they should use the old mugen executable.

The thing that calls my attention more on the quote is the "we don't want a mugen clone, we want a better mugen", but it seems like "we" is a very small amount of people, as several well known creators would rather have a clone than a better engine, judging by several points that come out in discussions. IIRC; that is why some of the old clones decided to competely drop mugen compatibility.
Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#3  January 26, 2009, 10:44:26 pm
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Agreed, new engine is the way to go that has the functionality but does not necessarily have the same character coding.

I mean at certain point, if more features are added, then old characters won't work.

Can you say dos mugen?

Sucks for old creators, they will have to relearn some stuff.
Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#4  January 26, 2009, 11:44:58 pm
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Exactly how big was the change between DOSMUGEN and WinMUGEN? Any way I could see this for myself?



Also at this point, I believe compatibility is the first step. Then measures can be taken to deprecate old syntax.
Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 11:51:54 pm by Jesuszilla
Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#5  January 27, 2009, 12:02:10 am
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hey corner push !
Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#6  January 27, 2009, 12:04:57 am
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Yes, I agree that the cornerpush should eventually be changed to something that makes sense, like what Capcom and SNK games do. The way MUGEN handles cornerpush now is retarded.
Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 12:12:26 am by Jesuszilla
Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#7  January 27, 2009, 02:43:38 am
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Exactly how big was the change between DOSMUGEN and WinMUGEN? Any way I could see this for myself?
- DOS Mugen allowed BMP files in the SFF.
- Some new triggers and sctrl added in Winmugen
- Many SFFs weren't working correctly on Winmugen, and had to be reordered.
- Some CLSN syntax in the AIR file made winmugen crash whereas it was working fine on DOS Mugen.
- IIRC, Winmugen makes a difference between time=0 and !time, or am I mistaking with something else ?
- Winmugen especially allowed graphical updates, with nice transparent FX and FX with unshared palette.

Personally, I'm for a Mugen clone which is compatible with old chars to some extent (à la DOS -> Win). People should be able to fix chars on their own, without spending too much time. Of course, if it's just a clone, it's pointless, which brings us to the things to add :
- new sctrl/triggers. Cyanide and some others already named some.
- Customizable screenpack.
- Interactive stages
etc.
Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#8  January 27, 2009, 03:02:00 am
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Old rare chars shouldn't get in the way of making things better, never ever.  Sorry guys!
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Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#9  January 27, 2009, 03:06:04 am
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some stuff that allows the opponent body to be easily manipulated after defeat would be great and ease up on the creation of winposes.

also , some kind of function that allows for transformations, perhaps something that replaces the transformed character internal ids, so that when they try to walk it goes automatically to the new sprites for walking, when he is thrown it goes automatically to the new hurt sprites.
Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#10  January 27, 2009, 03:38:01 am
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also palette manipulation midfight, and sorta easy palette cycle thing
projectile reflection handled with more options/possibilities to choose from
P1 using P2's files
palfx a la kof
horizontal envshake
zoom in zoom out a la samurai shodown
more palette selection range(z+a, b+c, start+b+y etc...)
...
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Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#11  January 27, 2009, 03:44:46 am
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See i don't want to go that far right now. I think cloning and improving on mugens current code parsing and syntax is more important than thousands of new features. Obviously new features can be added, but i wouldn't like them to get in the way of sctrls and triggers and parameters that currently exist, and work as intended.

Quote
Exactly how big was the change between DOSMUGEN and WinMUGEN? Any way I could see this for myself?
That? That was tiny. Added some of the functions from linux mugen like the AD256S256 thing in the air file. Few things in the screen pack. 2000,01,01 to the next update was a far bigger change

Dos mugen required everything in the same pallete and was far stricter on your sff. Winmugen is pretty lax really. BMP wasn't an option
Commands and name strings HAD to be enclosed in quotes. This meant everything had to be updated, no question. system.def changed as a whole. No screenpacks would have worked.

Basically everything needed to be updated. This meant we got a better mugen. Disabling and forcing things that are done badly to be redone properly is not anti compatibility. It's anti sloppyness. If something is shitty. Force it to work as required and people can update for a properly formatted character.


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Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#12  January 27, 2009, 03:53:30 am
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See i don't want to go that far right now. I think cloning and improving on mugens current code parsing and syntax is more important than thousands of new features. Obviously new features can be added, but i wouldn't like them to get in the way of sctrls and triggers and parameters that currently exist, and work as intended.

I agree.



Quote
Exactly how big was the change between DOSMUGEN and WinMUGEN? Any way I could see this for myself?
That? That was tiny. Added some of the functions from linux mugen like the AD256S256 thing in the air file. Few things in the screen pack. 2000,01,01 to the next update was a far bigger change

And what about that one? =P
Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#13  January 27, 2009, 03:56:49 am
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I would agree if this wasn't in the .net format. Being that we won't see this on other platforms, I'm just thinking that, maybe it should be adding more functions.

Each to his own though, ya know?
Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#14  January 27, 2009, 04:17:44 am
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Quote
Quote
Exactly how big was the change between DOSMUGEN and WinMUGEN? Any way I could see this for myself?
Quote
That? That was tiny. Added some of the functions from linux mugen like the AD256S256 thing in the air file. Few things in the screen pack. 2000,01,01 to the next update was a far bigger change

And what about that one? =P

That was this

Quote
Commands and name strings HAD to be enclosed in quotes. This meant everything had to be updated, no question. system.def changed as a whole. No screenpacks would have worked.

Every single character in existence was broken. Absolutely everything had to be updated. I was in the middle of creating my first character at this point, so i'm not sure of all the details but it caused more of an uproar than the winmugen update.

I certainly don't want to start cloning features like that time = 0 in the common states not working when read by state -2 thing. Or the way nothitby currently works, don't want to clone that either. I would prefer that we temporarily lose some characters to make things better rather than keep everything + the bugs just for compatibilities sake.

Adding new features i am happy with, but only after the old stuff that we KNOW functions properly, is functioning properly. Getting MAF- or AF+ working in the hitdef should take priority over stagevar(pos)


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Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#15  January 27, 2009, 05:48:02 am
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dos mugen supported 16 bit pcx files, that must be what cybaster tried to remember. Also 01 mugen did NOT support any type of expressions whatsoaver, hence why some triggers look like elecbyte was on drugs (animelem) when they made them. not to mention that there was almost nothing on documentation so a lot of triggers were added (see support for expressions).
Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#16  January 27, 2009, 10:20:31 am
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Now of course, there are shitloads of things i DO want.

rootvarset
rootvaradd
sprexist(grp,img)
hitoverride allowing damage from p2stateno attacks. Not the state change just the damage
reversaldef functioning alongside a hitdef
a guarding movetype
defencemulset working properly, not as part of a combo
attack and defencemulset should be asserted, not permanent. Changing them back to normal when the effect wears off is annoying
Modifyexplod overwriting everything you insert. If i have bindtime = -1 on the original explod and i specify bindtime = 2 on the modifyexplod i want that to take effect thanks. Not this pick'n'mix thing it does.
A horizontal envshake
Being able to redirect to the thing that's actually attacking you. Enemynear and so on is alright. But so often i want to use something that's ranged without doing a load of shit to prevent it breaking in teammode.
A distortion effect managed via sprite. If i put in a circle and type = distort. The circle is invisible but everything under it is kinda magnified.
Inbuilt management of stocks rather than a constant powerbar.
F and D hitflags not BOTH being required for hitting a D opponent. If it's D it should hit D, not D and F.

I probably have a longer wishlist. But those are some of my biggest annoyances and desires. And i'm happy for them all to take second string to having most of mugen's current functionality recreated. Aside from the shit stuff. That can bugger off. You seem to be doing an excellent job removing some of it, please continue.

In terms of helpertype = projectile. All i can really think of as important pieces of functionality here are inheriting the parents juggle points, and not increasing the opponents hitcounter if hit.


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Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#17  January 27, 2009, 05:18:36 pm
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Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#18  January 27, 2009, 05:43:35 pm
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dos mugen supported 16 bit pcx files, that must be what cybaster tried to remember. Also 01 mugen did NOT support any type of expressions whatsoaver, hence why some triggers look like elecbyte was on drugs (animelem) when they made them. not to mention that there was almost nothing on documentation so a lot of triggers were added (see support for expressions).

Heh, that was even worse with the early mugen releases... do you still remember when characters had only 256 life points? I remember several people complaining on Bravenet about the fact of being forced to update creations and make them compatible with the new 1000 points lifebar system
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Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#19  January 27, 2009, 09:06:47 pm
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If you want to make mugen better, one of the things you can do is add elements from fightermaker (seriously) . . . i can make a whole topic out of it if you're interested.
Re: Cloning MUGEN's errors
#20  January 27, 2009, 11:22:58 pm
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