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'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?' (Read 4098 times)

Started by CRZ, August 02, 2011, 04:52:54 pm
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CRZ

'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#1  August 02, 2011, 04:52:54 pm
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Hey guys,

Something I've been curious for the past few days - what if a mugen-made char (which is edited from an original copyrighted material) becomes so wildly popular that people want to read comics based on the game or buy merchandise. do these comics/merchandise constitute violation of copyright of the previous works? cos without the previous original works (like sprites and sounds) the mugen char would not have been conceivable and so its related products might be violating copyright as well.
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#2  August 02, 2011, 07:47:08 pm
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Fanart is fanart. Some companies allow it, some don't. SNK and Capcom regard and allow Mugen stuff as such.

I'd say fanart is usually safe unless companies are draconian (Nintendo), or people actually make $$$ from the intellectual property (sell stuff; that's what companies do).
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Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#3  August 03, 2011, 01:49:18 am
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hmmmm well like above says is true too. I also say ( IMO) depends cause if you did make a character from an original source of another companies character ( like say use Cap Commando to make an original character that has nothing anything like ole cc) then your still using companies stuff to make it. now if you did scratch work stuff ( sprites only  custom fx and sounds) then i think that treads a different line since its actually YOUR ORIGINAl work and not edited off of anything. Not sure but i think i might be right. lol
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#4  August 03, 2011, 02:01:15 am
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this is sonic


this is pikachu



this is the "original" character sonichu.




If you are going to lift elements they will still be copyrighted, and even if the company wont pursue you to take it down, others will notice the apparent rippoff.

the same way that you cant copyright a "original" character that uses all of captain commando sprites, but has a hat instead.

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Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#5  August 03, 2011, 02:14:21 am
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I like how you used quotes around original, Iced.
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#6  August 03, 2011, 02:15:56 am
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he shouldn't use quotes, sonichu is INTERNET FAMOUS etc
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#7  August 03, 2011, 02:28:12 am
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Don't ever dare to use Sonichu as part of an argument again!  >:(. Let that shit die already!  >:(
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#8  August 03, 2011, 02:30:17 am
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Sonichu was the comic to my childhood. A character must be made.
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#9  August 03, 2011, 04:18:54 am
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Sonichu? Your childhood? What are you 8?

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Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#10  August 03, 2011, 11:37:53 am
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LOL.
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#11  August 03, 2011, 11:48:43 am
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Yes...yes I am :)
Last Edit: August 03, 2011, 11:53:05 am by Dynamο

CRZ

Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#12  August 03, 2011, 12:37:10 pm
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Thanks guys for the feedback, I have a clearer picture now.

The reason why I'm asking is there are some people who're interested to draw comics from some mugen chars I'm making. The char sprites are modified (slightly, there are original sprites too) from other original games and are not meant to be sold, but the character concepts and storylines are original. So would it be an offence to make a comic out of it to be sold for profit? If yes I wouldn't mind not getting a cent out of comic sales profit, but the comic artist and publisher would indirectly be committing an offence. there are two ways to view it, first the chars are original so their storylines are entitled for profit use, but then again without the sprites/effects of other games, these chars would never gain the prominence to be made into a comic in the first place.

I think this is related to how mugen makes its money (not flaming elecbyte here; I'm really grateful they made mugen for us to use). I mean, mugen is non profit and the source of money is donations, but the core of mugen is the usage of other games' content to make our custom games, and through this, elecbyte makes money. opinions?
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#13  August 03, 2011, 09:50:18 pm
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Elecbyte makes money off of that?! When did that happen?
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Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#14  August 03, 2011, 11:36:37 pm
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i was just about to ask that very same thing.
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#15  August 04, 2011, 12:43:43 am
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Elecbyte don't make any money off this. It's a hobby project. They are not even accepting donations at the moment. They have requested donations ONCE when trying to move mugen to windows for a more advanced scripting program. They needed about $100 iirc and they got it.

Other than that, no. No profit is derived from 99.99999% of mugen works. Exceptions are a couple of people who have been paid to create stuff. Elecbyte not involved.


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Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#16  August 04, 2011, 07:13:19 am
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Thanks guys for the feedback, I have a clearer picture now.

The reason why I'm asking is there are some people who're interested to draw comics from some mugen chars I'm making. The char sprites are modified (slightly, there are original sprites too) from other original games and are not meant to be sold, but the character concepts and storylines are original. So would it be an offence to make a comic out of it to be sold for profit? If yes I wouldn't mind not getting a cent out of comic sales profit, but the comic artist and publisher would indirectly be committing an offence. there are two ways to view it, first the chars are original so their storylines are entitled for profit use, but then again without the sprites/effects of other games, these chars would never gain the prominence to be made into a comic in the first place.

I think this is related to how mugen makes its money (not flaming elecbyte here; I'm really grateful they made mugen for us to use). I mean, mugen is non profit and the source of money is donations, but the core of mugen is the usage of other games' content to make our custom games, and through this, elecbyte makes money. opinions?
gradually make the characters more original. I don't know how much different characters have to be when we have deadpool and the characters from absolute power running around. I wouldn't be worried unless I got a cease and desist.

CRZ

Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#17  August 04, 2011, 11:12:54 am
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Thanks guys for the feedback, I have a clearer picture now.

The reason why I'm asking is there are some people who're interested to draw comics from some mugen chars I'm making. The char sprites are modified (slightly, there are original sprites too) from other original games and are not meant to be sold, but the character concepts and storylines are original. So would it be an offence to make a comic out of it to be sold for profit? If yes I wouldn't mind not getting a cent out of comic sales profit, but the comic artist and publisher would indirectly be committing an offence. there are two ways to view it, first the chars are original so their storylines are entitled for profit use, but then again without the sprites/effects of other games, these chars would never gain the prominence to be made into a comic in the first place.

I think this is related to how mugen makes its money (not flaming elecbyte here; I'm really grateful they made mugen for us to use). I mean, mugen is non profit and the source of money is donations, but the core of mugen is the usage of other games' content to make our custom games, and through this, elecbyte makes money. opinions?
gradually make the characters more original. I don't know how much different characters have to be when we have deadpool and the characters from absolute power running around. I wouldn't be worried unless I got a cease and desist.

I may be wrong, I got the info from here:

http://www.mugenevolution.co.uk/Docs/mugenfaq.html#How%20much%20money%20have%20you%20gotten%3F

See 'how much profit have you made'. It's for an older version of mugen..maybe I didn't read the entire thing properly. But the 'webpage' they reference to is elecbyte.com, though I couldn't find any donation list there. I believe y'all though, Elecbyte's stance has always been non-profit.

Hmm still on grey area on this one...i've asked the capcom what their stance is, on how 'original' chars have to be, etc. i heard a user in mugenguild emailed capcom and snk but their response was quite vague..


Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 11:24:17 am by CRZ
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#18  August 04, 2011, 11:19:47 am
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Any company will lock you down if you ask them if you can get profit from their material.

If you are good enough to edit enough that whatever sources you used arent recognizable, then you should be in the clear, headswaps, characters using captain commando sprites but sporting a new name and moves are all still using likenesses that are held as copyright of someone else.

You cant publish a book about CRZ the super human that just happens to be reused images from the dragonball manga with the ballons changed and a new colour to the main character, the gi wearing, spiky haired CRZ.

If your work depends on someone else work to exist, then its not your work, just like with jokes:

Having a character joke about mario by showing up once in a mario costume= your character
having a character whose clothes are marios= possibility of infrigement and cease &desist.

CRZ

Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#19  August 04, 2011, 11:26:12 am
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Any company will lock you down if you ask them if you can get profit from their material.

If you are good enough to edit enough that whatever sources you used arent recognizable, then you should be in the clear, headswaps, characters using captain commando sprites but sporting a new name and moves are all still using likenesses that are held as copyright of someone else.

You cant publish a book about CRZ the super human that just happens to be reused images from the dragonball manga with the ballons changed and a new colour to the main character, the gi wearing, spiky haired CRZ.

If your work depends on someone else work to exist, then its not your work, just like with jokes.

Having a character joke about mario by showing up once in a mario costume= your character
having a character whose clothes are marios= possibility of infrigement and cease &desist.

Right, I was thinking the same thing. upon confirmation from the cos. I'll see to it that any derivative works from my chars are purely for hobby, or are not to be made at all.
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#20  August 04, 2011, 11:29:42 am
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Or, like someone said before, just create characters that are original enough that they dont have likenesses tied in copyright to anyone.

If I recall correctly, one of Aiduzzi first characters was made using FeiLong chest, it was so edited however you couldnt even tell.
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#21  August 04, 2011, 11:39:39 am
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have you never heard of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%8Djinshi
if your character is not that original automatically it will never be big, and it will not hurt anybody to sell it in convention etc.

look here,

Andy Seto once made a manhua that is clearly inspired by Street Fighter, and it went into publisher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyber_Weapon_Z


and look at this Street Fighter manhua, even its drawing style was not original, the illustrator was clearly mimicking Ryoichi Ikegami style.

http://www.rcllair.com/rclsf2g1/

CRZ

Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#22  August 04, 2011, 11:53:27 am
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Or, like someone said before, just create characters that are original enough that they dont have likenesses tied in copyright to anyone.

If I recall correctly, one of Aiduzzi first characters was made using FeiLong chest, it was so edited however you couldnt even tell.

Actually that's what I'm trying to find out: the chars are original with original faces, features etc, but to make them 'alive', sprites were either ripped or edited. they might have been edited till no one notices, but still, these chars gained their attention through use of someone else's copyright material. then somebody makes some art (like comics) of these chars - art is based on the chars storyline and personality development, not really the sprites. can such a work which is based on an original (concept-wise) char be considered illegal, since these chars gained their 'lives' from copyrighted material. Personally i'd think it's more 'wrong' than 'right', but good or bad doesn't always mean legal or illegal, hence this thread.

seems like i'll have to tell the artist the bad news. i'd refuse to take money out of his work but he might lend himself into trouble.

have you never heard of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%8Djinshi
if your character is not that original automatically it will never be big, and it will not hurt anybody to sell it in convention etc.

look here,

Andy Seto once made a manhua that is clearly inspired by Street Fighter, and it went into publisher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyber_Weapon_Z

Ryo Sakazaki did become HUGE..and he's so obviously a clone of Ryu! :P

It's not really the money..I wouldn't feel good if someone made a mint out of my chars which were based on other materials . I'd be disgusted sick if I were Akiman and somebody took my original Ryu, made an Uyr out of him and proceeded to make dough. I'd still be okay with it though, if the works are just a hobby thing without intent for profit.
Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 12:08:30 pm by CRZ
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#23  August 04, 2011, 02:05:55 pm
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didn't u get it, those hongkies comic artists and their publishers, that guy who draw athena/ mai/ yuri & friends pay nothing to the copyright holder.

a good idea is always copied, a bad one is not.
but there is a line between borrowing a concept and blatant plagiarism.

if that guy offer you money out of a character u make although it was edited from other sources, if you're confident enough that if that character is drawn on the cover of his comic nobody would immediately scream "Ryu!" then just go with it
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#24  August 04, 2011, 06:37:59 pm
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If I recall correctly, one of Aiduzzi first characters was made using FeiLong chest, it was so edited however you couldnt even tell.

yeah i think that character your talking about is Ubu. the old dude with explosive firing finger he points like a gun. yeah he has made him so well done you wouldnt even notice it. thats great editing. Aiduzzi is one of my favorite original character creators. 

and CRZ- there is many ways you can actually make stance animations without using existing sprites. you just have to be very good at editing and scratch spriting to pull off some of it depending on how you do it. many characters have been made without using animation bases of sprites to make other characters. some really well done and  clean and some kinda awkward.  I have also seen alot of scratch sprited stuff done , like a few characters from sprite artist taskmaster. he is very good and showed me how he did a character and how clean it looks using zero bases.  So when it comes to some original and some copyrighted stuff not every character in mugen (but yes most )  all  use bases from copyrighted sprites. i might even have a couple on my own project that wont use any bases from copyright stuff and have to be scratch sprited.
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#25  August 05, 2011, 12:22:16 am
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yeah i think that character your talking about is Ubu. the old dude with explosive firing finger he points like a gun. yeah he has made him so well done you wouldnt even notice it. thats great editing. Aiduzzi is one of my favorite original character creators. 
Huh ? It was kinda obvious at first sight he was using Feilong's chest, Yamazaki's legs and Gen's head.
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#26  August 05, 2011, 04:16:10 am
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yeah i think that character your talking about is Ubu. the old dude with explosive firing finger he points like a gun. yeah he has made him so well done you wouldnt even notice it. thats great editing. Aiduzzi is one of my favorite original character creators. 
Huh ? It was kinda obvious at first sight he was using Feilong's chest, Yamazaki's legs and Gen's head.

Not to me when i first got around to finding him. it wasnt till much later i realized whos they were. lol. but he did do a great job on him and the others.
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#27  August 05, 2011, 10:06:45 am
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yeah i think that character your talking about is Ubu. the old dude with explosive firing finger he points like a gun. yeah he has made him so well done you wouldnt even notice it. thats great editing. Aiduzzi is one of my favorite original character creators. 
Huh ? It was kinda obvious at first sight he was using Feilong's chest, Yamazaki's legs and Gen's head.

Most people wouldnt notice, and the work over he gave to the whole thing made him useable. I mean, he wouldnt be able to copyright those specific sprites, but he could use the character anywhere and no one would say "its gen mixed with feilong and yama!"

So the sprites wouldnt be copyrighteable but the character would.
Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#28  August 05, 2011, 10:25:47 am
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For the record. That page is OMG old. Like, 2002 old. That was about the point they were actually requesting donations. Most of that stuff is probably no longer accurate.

Quick skim through. Yes that is old as hell. sprmaker is old, it's sprmake2 now, and they specify you should be on 320x240, which is basically out of date since 4 years ago and their latest release defaults to 720p.

So yeah, take that page with a grain of salt. You'd be better off reading what's actually on the site rather than a hosted document.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

CRZ

Re: 'Partial' Copyright infringement on 'byproducts?'
#29  August 11, 2011, 03:29:32 pm
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yeah i think that character your talking about is Ubu. the old dude with explosive firing finger he points like a gun. yeah he has made him so well done you wouldnt even notice it. thats great editing. Aiduzzi is one of my favorite original character creators. 
Huh ? It was kinda obvious at first sight he was using Feilong's chest, Yamazaki's legs and Gen's head.

Most people wouldnt notice, and the work over he gave to the whole thing made him useable. I mean, he wouldnt be able to copyright those specific sprites, but he could use the character anywhere and no one would say "its gen mixed with feilong and yama!"

So the sprites wouldnt be copyrighteable but the character would.

I'd love to think that way too, if we put ourselves in the original char creator's shoes we'd be screaming 'piracy!' though the modified-sprite char is indeed original. I'll see how it goes..


For the record. That page is OMG old. Like, 2002 old. That was about the point they were actually requesting donations. Most of that stuff is probably no longer accurate.

Quick skim through. Yes that is old as hell. sprmaker is old, it's sprmake2 now, and they specify you should be on 320x240, which is basically out of date since 4 years ago and their latest release defaults to 720p.

So yeah, take that page with a grain of salt. You'd be better off reading what's actually on the site rather than a hosted document.

Whoops I stand corrected!