The Mugen Fighters Guild - are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

Bastard Mami

are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#1 January 30, 2012, 08:36:42 pm

Are not we supossed to add more comeback mechanics to the gameplay so p2 always has a chance to fight back ? then in that case any dizzy system works against the idea as it rewards the character who is already winning. this is unlike guard break mechanics because those reward offensive players aka, giving you more of an incentive to risk.

as I am developing a small fighting game I see myself completely ditching a dizzy system, but maybe I am not noticing something in there.

Loona

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#2 January 30, 2012, 09:25:49 pm

Nothing ever ends

Yeah, dizzying kinda helps with the slippery slope problem...

The one way I see it being remotely useful is by having it triggered only by isolated heavy/slow hits/throws that can't be comboed from instead of combos, since someone already using the latter is already optimizing his damage usually starting from a quick attack. But maybe I'm also missing something as well.

It may be worth taking into account that SF2, which pretty much created combos by accident, had dizzying intentionally in it, so if the 2 had been planned perhaps they both wouldn't have made it into the final game.

"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise.
Seek what they sought" - Basho

walt

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#3 January 30, 2012, 09:28:08 pm

SNK is life

I guess the dizzy system is something that could be done away with, judging by this day and age's standard.

Back then, there were no supers. And if there were, you sure as hell couldn't stock up to 5 supers. SF4 pretty much broke that stereotype with the Revenge gauge, and the Ultra mechanics ... and they seem to work pretty well.

Darkflare

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#4 January 30, 2012, 10:20:16 pm

Dizzying is fine and should be applied to more fighters.

It punishes you for sucking.

"Bad News" Hoffmann

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#5 January 30, 2012, 10:24:07 pm

soul calibur and tekken work pretty good without dizzy systems

nuff said

GalFord

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#6 January 30, 2012, 10:55:18 pm

Give me Tea, or Cake!

GBK667 said, January 30, 2012, 10:24:07 pm

soul calibur and tekken work pretty good without dizzy systems

nuff said

But, they both utilize the 'Stagger/crumple' mechanic, which whilst not in the same league as dizzying, it still allows a free hit/combo.

"Bad News" Hoffmann

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#7 January 30, 2012, 11:07:06 pm

and thats okay and something different than the dizzy systems

MellyInChains

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#8 January 31, 2012, 12:38:59 am

i'm a gay trans lady
to hell with this site, find me at mffa or w/e

they can be okay if you bother to test it out, unlike dragon master where there's an infinite re-dizzy combo going on in there

rednavi -RETIRED

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#9 January 31, 2012, 01:44:12 am

if you apply a dizzy system do it so the char can't be dizzied more than once in the same combo. From all the games I expected this oversight to be present I did NOT expect it to be in KOF XIII (But to be fair I saw only one combo that was able to do such thing so far).

Also it depends of what type of game you're talking about. If you check the last 15 years you'll see that games with high hitcount combos often end up dropping the system (Like Melty Blood or MVC3). Others retained it though (Like Guilty Gear and IIRC Blazblue?).

Meh, save yourself some coding and just ditch it lol! If you're going to do it the way most of the coders in mugen do it then it will be wrong anyway.

Darkflare

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#10 January 31, 2012, 02:01:27 am

Blazblue doesn't have a dizzy system. Just guard crush.

Squire Grooktook

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#11 January 31, 2012, 02:06:48 am

立ち絵(たちえ~ said, January 30, 2012, 08:36:42 pm

Are not we supossed to add more comeback mechanics to the gameplay so p2 always has a chance to fight back ?

Before I continue in my response, let me just say NO. Comeback mechanics are bullshit, and just because it's the trend doesn't mean you're "supposed" to put them in every fighter. you shouldn't have mechanic's "give you a chance to fight back" because you already can fight back. If you both have ten hp, and he hits you nine times, you shouldn't need to unlock some kind of super magical awesome special move that instantly makes it so you're completely even despite the beating you just took from your own mistakes. If you fuck up and get put on the ropes, play awesome to make up for your mistakes. And just don't get hit. End of story.

立ち絵(たちえ~ said, January 30, 2012, 08:36:42 pm

then in that case any dizzy system works against the idea as it rewards the character who is already winning. this is unlike guard break mechanics because those reward offensive players aka, giving you more of an incentive to risk.

as I am developing a small fighting game I see myself completely ditching a dizzy system, but maybe I am not noticing something in there.

I agree with dizzy being a bit of an unnecessary reward given to someone who already took an enormous advantage (which should be reward enough). However, I doubt dizzy will actually break anything so long as you balance it correctly, so it ultimately comes down to personal preference. If you prefer, as Darkflares said, to punish players for overly sloppy play while getting that "epic beat down" feel to it, then go ahead. It probably won't hurt your game. Or if you wanna keep neutral, and only reward players based on the damage they've made and the meter they have built, go ahead.

Just please, please, please don't put any comeback mechanics in your game. Please.

Cazaki

Re:

#12 January 31, 2012, 02:24:08 am

Some of you fail to mention that 3rd strike pretty much made dizzying a core part of it's gameplay and made some otherwise pretty bad characters into decent ones by doing so. Dizzies generally shouldnt reward combos as much as precise, strong attacks, like kens st. Mk in that game. Capcom picked and chose which moves generate more dizzy than others too, and in the long run made it interesting. No other game had dizzy as important to it's core gameplay than 3rd strike except sf2. I know some marvel vs. games had it but it wasnt nearly as important. MvC2 had it but you probably wouldnt trigger it unless you were in training mode.

Darkflare

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#13 January 31, 2012, 03:31:45 am

Marvel Vs. games after MSHvsSF didn't have Dizzy.

Squire Grooktook

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#14 January 31, 2012, 04:29:28 am

Also, dizzy combos in the older Marvel games were almost always infinite combos anyway. So them causing dizzy didn't really make too big a difference.

Actually, the best thing about them was that if they came when the opponent was already near death, you could use the dizzy to land some really epic super that you couldn't combo into from the infinite, thus ending the match with style.

Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 04:39:28 am by Squire Grooktook

walt

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#15 January 31, 2012, 04:02:04 pm

SNK is life

FINISH HIM!

rednavi -RETIRED

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#16 January 31, 2012, 04:18:52 pm

Darkflare said, January 31, 2012, 02:01:27 am

Blazblue doesn't have a dizzy system. Just guard crush.

Good! Then that goes to my list of "games that dropped the dizzy system", considering it's the spiritual sucesor or GG and all that.

Also another thing I usually hate about the dizzy system in games is when the combo gets cut by it, resetting the hit count and hence the damage dampener. This often leads to an absurd amount of damage in total.

I like how OMK implements the dizzy system as an important part of the longest combo strings.

Cazaki

Re:

#17 January 31, 2012, 08:37:18 pm

SSF4 doesnt reset dampener atleast. And my bad with the mistake on MvC2, I was thinking about something else it has

Cyanide

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#18 February 01, 2012, 01:03:17 am

Legendary XIII
I am the eye of the storm to come!

Dizzy is probably a bad idea as part of standard combos. However supers that can dizzy ONCE are kinda cool. You shouldn't be able to re-dizzy as part of the same combo, but the one hit dealing dizzy is completely reasonable. And all characters should have the anim so you can use it as an effect animation during a combo.

In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Bastard Mami

Re:

#19 February 10, 2012, 12:47:20 am

Cazaki said, January 31, 2012, 02:24:08 am

Some of you fail to mention that 3rd strike pretty much made dizzying a core part of it's gameplay and made some otherwise pretty bad characters into decent ones by doing so. Dizzies generally shouldnt reward combos as much as precise, strong attacks, like kens st. Mk in that game. Capcom picked and chose which moves generate more dizzy than others too, and in the long run made it interesting. No other game had dizzy as important to it's core gameplay than 3rd strike except sf2. I know some marvel vs. games had it but it wasnt nearly as important. MvC2 had it but you probably wouldnt trigger it unless you were in training mode.

this and what cyanide said, having dizzy as a way to reward some specific moves so damage is not the only think rewarded makes dizzy worth the effort. sf3, kof11 , omk use dizzy in very nice ways to balance the game at a deeper level.

Nanashi_1337

Re: are dizzy systems counter productive / bad ?

#20 February 10, 2012, 12:13:02 pm

Unity of Hearts

Cyanide said, February 01, 2012, 01:03:17 am

Dizzy is probably a bad idea as part of standard combos. However supers that can dizzy ONCE are kinda cool. You shouldn't be able to re-dizzy as part of the same combo, but the one hit dealing dizzy is completely reasonable. And all characters should have the anim so you can use it as an effect animation during a combo.

That's one of the reasons I like Alex in Street Fighter 3. I really love to connect his super against any careless player. And so far, the only game I remember that it's about long combos and has dizzy sistem is Ougon, which obviously caused problems aka infinites (they removed it with a patch, of course). Don't know if there are other games in which re-dizzy worked and caused problems.

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