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King of Fighters E blog (Read 311172 times)

Started by swipergod, November 14, 2007, 02:53:22 am
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Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#61  January 27, 2008, 01:29:10 am
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I understand priorities now and how real games handle them as opposed to Mugen (read the priorities thread in development).  I also understand projectile priorities and how to make projectiles swallow other projectiles.  There's a lot of work going into redoing all the collisions for all the characters.  I had to adjust some for Mr.X-File's Rugal (he did auto collisions for every frame) and that was a real nightmare.  I'll see what I can do with some, but I may just release the betas and have people come back and tell me which moves are too low/high priority wise (for example, "Um, swipergod, Rugal's trip beats out everything!  Can you fix that?").  That'll probably be a main fix for the final release versions of all characters.  I will check to see if some character's collisions are too far extended though.  My personal preference is that basic attacks trade hits and it's the speed they come out at that will determine the winner.  Specials will be different.

Also missfairy has offer to help me code AI, which should boost the lame AI (default Mugen AI) the characters currently have.  Still I'm hoping people who have friends they can play with, go at it and post their videos on youtube so I can see how the characters work in human vs human scenarios.  Just to let you know, the game is catering more towards 1 on 1 play or team KOF style play with 2 on 2 simu being more of a novelty.  Back to Geese.
Official KOFE website is up.  Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

http://mugekofe.web44.net/
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#62  January 27, 2008, 02:23:36 am
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  I'll see what I can do with some, but I may just release the betas and have people come back and tell me which moves are too low/high priority wise (for example, "Um, swipergod, Rugal's trip beats out everything!  Can you fix that?").  That'll probably be a main fix for the final release versions of all characters.  I will check to see if some character's collisions are too far extended though.  My personal preference is that basic attacks trade hits and it's the speed they come out at that will determine the winner.  Specials will be different.
That's probably the best idea IMO.

You can only determine so much in closed testing, anyway. So it's usually best to reference feedback for final tweaks  :D
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#63  January 28, 2008, 06:14:01 am
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Geese Howard is ready to stand toe to toe with the rest: http://youtube.com/watch?v=GMvVZl12BOU
As a little bonus, here's Geese's '96 Intro with Terry: http://youtube.com/watch?v=LjDIWgB2Wfg
Edit: Although not visible in the video, I changed Geese's throw so the enemy is planted face first to the ground.

Geese is pretty much the prime example of what I'm trying to do with the game and here's why:

The ridiculously difficult to pull off in pressure situations Rising Storm motion has been replaced with the friendlier (d,f,d,f + p).  To balance the easy motion, Geese loses almost all invinicibility frames.

The deadly rave has become an auto combo and (gasp!) a level 1.  I never understood why SNK forced you to manually input each hit when, say, the Maiden Masher or Dragon Dance did it automatically.  I reduced it to a level 1 because Rock's much more flashy Rave will take the Level 3 prize.  I've given Geese his RB Rashomon that sucked you in from a distance as his level 3 to compensate for the change.

The Counter System.  Unfortunately from what I understand Mugen's reversal.def will not recognize the different between standing moves that need to be blocked high and other standing moves.  As such, in an effort to make the counter system more user friendly, I'm gonna downgrade Geese and Kasumi to the Billy Kane/Blue Mary system.  Low counter will counter all C attacks and Normal S attacks, while high counter will counter all A attacks and Special and Hyper S attacks.  Mid counters will be removed.  To prevent spamming, I've added a window before the counter of 4 frames where the character can still be hit and there's a long recovery should they miss.  So there's still skill involved in the countering.  Once again, with characters like Blue Mary, I don't understand why SNK kept guys like Geese so complex.  For hardcore gamers that's understandable, but if you want a buddy to pick up and play a few rounds with you, it'd be nice to have the variation in the moves rather than the motions.

Geese highlights the differences between my Capcom/SNK mixed style and true SNK style, which from what I've played, KOF zillion seems to be doing quite well (XI style anyway).  I've also decided against the use of a spark.sff because I think it complicated things too much for people who just wanna open the character's up and play.  That'll change once I have a screenpack/final verisons of the characters, but for now, I'll just do the extra work so more people can enjoy.  One more character to go! ;)
Official KOFE website is up.  Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

http://mugekofe.web44.net/
Last Edit: January 28, 2008, 08:10:43 am by swipergod
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#64  January 31, 2008, 03:35:56 am
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Geese had more complex counters, I believe, because they were to be more devastating.


I understand what you're trying to do to prevent counter spamming, but really, all those cautions should be taken by having vulnerable frames AFTER the counter. I think windows of vulnerability before a counter make them TOO circumstantial (se: KOF XI Elizabeth).

Geese's raging storm complex motion seemed to just hang around for traditions sake. While the idea of "complex move in exchange for phat damage" is interesting in theory, it doesn't work in competitive games. I'm glad you see that as it took SNK until KOF96 to start to get it and until MOTW to get the hint with Fatal Fury. I see why you'd change the command of the deadly rave but, well, the inputs are kind of what makes the move stand out from the rest. I wonder how players will take to just another Ranbu. Geese comes off as more of a character with calculated strikes, which is demonstrated through the old deadly rave motion. Honestly, i'm on the fence about that move. On one hand, it's interactivity is an attraction, on the other, what's the trade off for so many chances to mess it up?

You know who has a good example of how a rave should be? Dumb@$$ design or not, Momoko's "forced mixup" style rave (Hibiki also kind of had one in CVS2) seems to be how those moves hsould be... auto combos that have varying hit levels that don't necessarily all combo but force mixups for phat hits.

In the end, though, I think FG's should be about how you USE the move, not how you do them. But how will fans take to an ultimate nerfing of one of the deadliest moves in FG history?

Ha... I like to talk about FG's...
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#65  January 31, 2008, 05:59:21 am
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The deadly rave has become an auto combo and (gasp!) a level 1.  I never understood why SNK forced you to manually input each hit when, say, the Maiden Masher or Dragon Dance did it automatically.
I think, they made it Level 3 + manual input because you can let the standard animation run, and continue comboing, making Deadly Rave more varied, in terms of gameplay.

Auto-combos, on the other hand, rarely are able to be followed up on, unless it's a seperate move (Wolfs Bloom following Maiden Masher).

On topic; I'm kinda looking forward to this, but without watching the videos I don't know what to expect, which would be for the best, really. Mostly so it surprises me when released :P.
Coming soon

Something maybe possibly related to possible maybe Mugen WIP.
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#66  January 31, 2008, 10:12:22 am
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What you're doing to Rising Storm is I guess SNK's approach to Rock's Rising (Raging?) Storm: Rock's Storm has the QCFx2+P command, however he seems to get hit out of it a lot more often and it also takes a while before it comes out. Not to mention Rock's storm has bad range compared to Geese's.

Terry's Power Geyser on the other hand has a QCB,DB,F+P command (slightly more complex), however in his more recent incarnations and with the presence of Rock Howard, his Geyser comes out almost instantly. As opposed to Terry's old Power Geyser, which had the same motion, however took a while to come out. In case you don't get my point; they change the character's supers to make the game(s) more interesting and to give characters more depth and learning value compared to other characters. You don't someone to be like 'hey guise I can use Rock so guess what I can use Terry too! Awesome!'

I don't know if you have Rock planned for your game, but if you are planning to include Rock, I suggest you change Geese's super back to its original form or even better, get it from '96. This way their moves have some significant difference between them. Geese's Storm is supposed to feel different from Rock's and each of them have their advantages and disadvantages for good reasons.

Also I don't think Geese's Storm had any invulnerability to begin with. Whilst the cage in '96 and NBC IINM can cancel out projectiles and hit enemies, Geese is still very much hit-able during the entire super. But there is however I guess a very brief period of invincibility every character gets during their superpause as part of the system or something. Not too sure about that though.
Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 07:38:17 am by Yeong Woong
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#67  January 31, 2008, 06:01:23 pm
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there does not seem to be any invulnerability at all besides what the clsns dictate.

I also said she's my dearest friend, so because I want to protect her, it's like I have to do my best so damn hard, so maybe if Mii-chan would be there I would have to be like: "ah! So for Mii-chan's sake I'll work hard!"
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#68  February 02, 2008, 01:48:50 am
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Hi Dark Symphony.  I like talking about fighting games too.  I'd like to take a wait and see approach to the opening window for Geese's counters.  The moves are pretty good damage and have the ability of countering hypers (thus even countering moves with invincibility windows like Terry's buster wolf for example for the price of nadda unlike the guard counters, which would still go through the move's invincibility).  Timing should play a key in countering I think (but not something ridiculous like Heidern's counter).  4 frames is 1/4 of a second I think, so it's not so bad and it forces you to vary your offense slightly, so you're not a turtling Geese.  We'll see if that works in practice though.

I'm heavily paranoid about DMs being chainable, because a lot of characters will suffer for their inability to do this.  Already, I worry about Leona cause that damn energy ball of hers can be chained into her V-Slasher for close to 8/10ths of your life.  Each character has a trade off, and Geese is a pretty powerful character as it is, due to his double air fireball ability and double reppuken.  Giving him the ability to "break" the deadly rave, especially at level 1 (for example into fp into a second DR into fp into a RS) may affect balance.  So once again, it'll be played on the wait and see. 

Yeong Woong, Rock will be in the game.  From the alpha of his character I currently have, he's already a much different character (much weaker, which will need to be addressed).  The idea is for him to feel slightly like Geese, much like Robert will feel slightly like Ryo.  Rock is definitely closer to Geese than Terry though.  The difference in their raging storms is that Rock will have some invincibility, but less range, allowing for a more Power Gyser feel and use (minus the distance).  At Level 2 Rock can delay his Storm and it is faster and more reliable than Thunder Rain.  Thunder Rain, however, is unblockable.  There are more minor differences between characters, which should hopefully lend themselves to people preferring one over the other instead of confusing the two.  I don't plan on a Rock release for a while yet though, unless it is demanded of me by the community. 

I'm trying to make a game that would be simple to pick up one character, but hard to master.  There's nothing simple about (db, hcb, df +p), even for a guy who's been fighting since FF Special like me.  Motions shouldn't scare you away from a character.  My philosophy anyway.  I might consider an official change to another, already incorporated, motion like (f,hcf +p) if there's more demand.  Worse comes to worse, people can always go into the files and change it themselves. ;)  Plus, let's not forget that there will be 40 characters in total, so plenty of mastering to do without having to memorize crazy button combinations etc...

I will finish K' this weekend.  There will still be final tweaks and some AI programming if missfairy is still interested before the release.  As usual, I'll keep y'all posted.
Official KOFE website is up.  Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

http://mugekofe.web44.net/
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#69  February 02, 2008, 03:33:59 am
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I will finish K' this weekend.  There will still be final tweaks and some AI programming if missfairy is still interested before the release.  As usual, I'll keep y'all posted.
Of course! can't wait. ;)
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#70  February 02, 2008, 12:26:14 pm
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I understand.

Still though, whilst db,hcb,df+P indeed looks scary, it's not a hard command at all. For me, at least.

I can pull it off both on pad and keyboard with very little problems. I actually have more trouble with f,hcf+P (I usually go past the time limit you have to input the command or I end up doing something like Zanretsu Ken with someone like Ryo) and qcb,db,f+P (in characters/games without the d,b,f shortcut, I find it quite difficult to input this motion in certain situations, like trying to do jumping Hou'ou Kyaku with Kim). But that's just me.
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#71  February 02, 2008, 12:34:27 pm
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Iv'e been checking up on this topic from time to time, So I thought I'd give a little input.  The Change to the Deadly Rave bothers me alot more than Raging Storm.  Heck, Nightmare Geese by jin has raging storm as a QCFx2 command, and it doesn't bother me one bit.  But deadly rave is just more iconic, you only really used it if you knew you could perform the move.  It's a show-off move, but thats why I enjoy it so much, he has enough other specials that the Deadly rave is more of a bonus to those who actually learn how to play Geese.

Even so I'm looking forward to seeing how you make these characters play though, so I'll definitely check em out. 
Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 11:47:09 pm by Shion
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#72  February 02, 2008, 09:24:33 pm
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Iv'e been checking up on this topic from time to time, So I thought I'd give a little input.  The Change to the Deadly Rave bothers me alot more than Raging Storm.  Heck, Nightmare Geese by jin has raging storm as a HCFx2 command, and it doesn't bother me one bit.  But deadly rave is just more iconic, you only really used it if you knew you could perform the move.  It's a show-off move, but thats why I enjoy it so much, he has enough other specials that the Deadly rave is more of a bonus to those who actually learn how to play Geese.

Even so I'm looking forward to seeing how you make these characters play though, so I'll definitely check em out. 
I believe that's what he's trying to move away from, though.

He seems to want to make it so characters don't need to be "learned" In the sense that they have weird movesets or combo DMs you have to know how to preform or you don't get to use them. And instead have it so being good is more based around being good with said character as opposed to being good with said character AND being able to do some weird command.
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#73  February 03, 2008, 12:06:59 am
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My point was that Geese has a large enough moveset where having one difficult to perform SDM isn't much of a detriment to a novice player.  I agree that DB, HCB, DF is a pain in the ass to perform, even if you know the motion.  The deadly rave however is quite easy to get started with HCB, F, and the followups are easy to perform if you know what they are.  Though I think getting bumped down to a level 1 DM is worse than changing the command, as the deadly rave has almost always been Geese's strongest attack.


[Edit] Appearantly there were a few games in which Deadly Rave doesn't require manual inputs, It's just been so long I can't rememeber which ones.  So there is precedent for that, I just think it should still be his strongest attack.
Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 12:15:03 am by Shion
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#74  February 03, 2008, 04:30:19 am
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Yeong.  Sorry, upon read my response, I think my it might have come off more of a snappy remark than an opinion.  I meant no insult.  I am listening to all comments and suggestions.  Trust me.  We'll see if the motions bother you after you've played the characters a bit.  We'll be in beta testing for a while I think.  As for motions, I've noted that (f,hcf) is difficult to pull off when a character also has a (d,df,f) or even a (f,d,f) motion regardless of what order you place it in.  I've noted that a good solution is to remove times for the latter motions.  Seems to make the (f,hcf) take priority.  All motions will have a 20 frame input time except for charge moves, which will be 15 (seems to make them more crisp).  So hopefully there won't be too much struggling with Karate's Haoh.

Missfairy.  Great.  I'm working on K' right now, but it's gonna take a couple extra days (more to do than I realized).  If all goes well, I can send you the first few characters by next weekend.

Shion.  The key here is balance.  Not just in game, but in terms of pick up and play.  All characters have 2 DM, 1 SDM and 1 HSDM.  The idea is that there shouldn't be a complex move in the mix that cripples the use of a character and thus limits a player access to a full moveset.  I'm hoping you'll give Rashomon a chance.  I was incredibly impressed with it in Real Bout 2, and have tried to mimic that powerful incarnation.  In terms of flash, the HSDMs are big damage and relatively useful, but the super meter builds slow, so usually in a fight you'll only have one shot at connecting with it (Unless you're playing 5 rounds).  So that should hopefully give a player that big feeling of satisfaction when they connect with one.  Plus I just think it'd be lame if Rock and Geese both had a level 1 & 2 Rising Storm and a level 3 (Thus 3 out of 4 moves being exactly the same).  The differences between them would shrink drastically.  And Rock's Shining Knuckle as a Level 3 just doesn't seem to cut it when Terry's more powerful Buster Wolf is out there.

If anyone's curious, Rock's no sound alpha vid is still on youtube along with Geese's vid.  Feel free to compare the two.
Official KOFE website is up.  Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

http://mugekofe.web44.net/
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#75  February 03, 2008, 11:44:27 am
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Naw, I',m completely willing to test out your revisions, lots of people disagree about semantics, but were all out for the same thing, to have fun.  So no worries there.  And I completely understand about the variety point.  I just look at it from a continuity standpoint, so I see good reasons why Rock should play similarly to Geese.   I'll wait till I actually have a chance to play your version of Geese to comment further, which I'm quite looking forward too. 
Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 11:51:25 am by Shion
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#76  February 03, 2008, 10:13:12 pm
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Missfairy.  Great.  I'm working on K' right now, but it's gonna take a couple extra days (more to do than I realized).  If all goes well, I can send you the first few characters by next weekend.
Alrighty :)

I had a question + suggestion. Are the bosses going to have their original boss syndrome? Or are they going to be more "normal" With high stats, or something.

Also, Kula DM suggestion (Nobody really seemed to do this, so I wondered if it was worth mentioning)

level 1 Dm - her ice world with diana.
level 1 Dm alt - a single diamond spike
SDM - a wave of diamond spikes
HSDM - from 2k2, with foxy, diana, and candy. But maybe edit it a bit so it seems more brutal? -shrug-

Also, I really hope you give her the intros/winposes with her girlfriends. I hate how XI and 2k3 removed them  :(
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#77  February 04, 2008, 12:18:20 am
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So far the only official boss character I've done (Rugal) is just gonna have more invincibility windows.  His moves are already pretty potent/damaging.  I didn't like 2k2 where they had to increase his life/decrease your damage to him to make him challenging.  Orochi will be different than the other 3.  I've got big plans for him.  You and I can talk about it more soon.

Kula is gonna be my toughest challenge and the most radically different character on the roster, which is why she's slated to appear towards the end.  I really like Diana and Foxy, so I'd like to put them in.  The idea I had was for each one to appear in one of her throws (making the ice cube throw a special throw). And her DMs are going to look like this:

DM 1: Kula calls Diana to dash towards the opponent (like a projectile)
DM 2: Kula calls Foxy to slash the opponent up close and then spikes them with a large ice diamond
SDM: A revamp of DM 2 where Kula instead calls both Foxy and Diana to attack (once again only hitting close opponents)
HSDM:  Her ice world super without the Diana pre-attack.  (A screen filling super for a non-boss character should be level 3 only).

I've pretty much conceptualized all 40 characters.  It's just a matter of making them now. :)
Official KOFE website is up.  Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

http://mugekofe.web44.net/
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#78  February 04, 2008, 02:07:35 am
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Oooh, I can't wait to talk about Orochi ^^;

Ahh, that sounds very interesting for Kula!
I have one suggestion for those DMs ~ Maybe have dianna preform a uppercut slash attack if she connects for the first one? (Kind of like Mai's chinese music rush DM) It might make it look a bit more "painful" Then her simply dashing past you. ^^;;
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#79  February 04, 2008, 09:50:42 am
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lol.  Actually, because I'm not putting Chris in the game, I was gonna use the fireball sprite from his (d,f,d,f +p) Orochi DM.  So it kinda ends up being like Foxy's Suicide SDM, minus the suicide and explosion.
Official KOFE website is up.  Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

http://mugekofe.web44.net/
Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)
#80  February 04, 2008, 05:17:26 pm
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The Counter System.  Unfortunately from what I understand Mugen's reversal.def will not recognize the different between standing moves that need to be blocked high and other standing moves.

iirc, it is clsn based.

I also said she's my dearest friend, so because I want to protect her, it's like I have to do my best so damn hard, so maybe if Mii-chan would be there I would have to be like: "ah! So for Mii-chan's sake I'll work hard!"