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Various considerations regarding throw interaction. (Read 9125 times)

Started by Bastard Mami, August 19, 2011, 05:24:11 pm
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Various considerations regarding throw interaction.
#1  August 19, 2011, 05:24:11 pm
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as some of you might know, I am working on a full game (link to guild subforum is in my signature).

Some of the things I want to have are better interaction on this/grabs and projectiles, since it's gonna be a full game ic an do away with a lot of simple tricks that would work horribly in normal mugen to implement stuff, such as having var 0 = player type, so it can be checked if it's a normal player, an ai helper, a projectile, etc ...

that being said i will get started talking about throws, unlike projectile or hit interaction this shoudl not be too complex, / involving; unliek hit interaction , which I have brainstormed since years ago, this is relatively fresh; currently i can't even make a list so suggestions are very welcome.

how throws work, simple stuff.

again, this is for my game, based off several other fighting games and even werestling games I have played.

grabs are instant and unblockable in general and only work on grounded oponents, a specific grab might break one of these rules, those are just general not absolute.

grabs are done by pressing two punches or two kicks, if the enemy can't get grabbed a grab missed animation will play, currently it last 15 ticks, i will research some games to see if this is not too short thus making them unpunishable, I want p2 to be able to hit you if you fail a grab but not be able to go for a full jump in combo easily.

there are also special grabs which can or will break most of the rules I am trying to lay out, such as having a super grab be completely unescapable, but as  counter balance, it's mis animation lasts more than estandar.

1. should I make the regualr grab comboable ? what would the advantage be of using them instead of a special or super ? KI2 did this, it had the grab become launchers, I am not using a Ki like combo system, but something closer to kof/sf.

2. grabs can be cancelled, when two players are close the grab becomes a good option for it will outprioritize any attacks it is instant can get's get hit by attacks for the 1 tick it's grab frame is active; so, when two layer are close theonly options are jump or grab, an attack can be used to beat a jump but talking about grab that means using the punch grab or the kick grab are the only options regarding grab interaction.
Since the grab active frame only lasts one tick, prioritizing if a grab wins over the other is not important, so what should the difference be between the punch and the kick grab ? one thing I tough about i having the type of grab (punch of kick)being input by the player get compared to the grabbing player's , if it's the same it will be a succesfull scape, if it's different it won't. that's kidna too simple and not worth making a topic so I want to make this deeper.

I will have it that if both players input a grab, ultimately what will happen is that they will get in a grab struggle regardless of who input the grab first, teh only advantage f inputting the grab first would influencing the otucome of the grab. to getting into a struggle I will add a frame of 5 or more ticks in which p2 can struggle to get out the grab.

now, i can have the type of grab input have two possible outcomes, keep close or keep away,but I also want to have the player getting grabed to be able to completely turn around the grab, so if someone very predictable witha  grab you can still punish him without the need of taking the risk of a jumpin.


ideas?
Re: Various considerations regarding throw interaction.
#2  August 19, 2011, 08:23:20 pm
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This topic interests me, although I could probably use some knowledge about "pure" wrestling games to know about interesting examples of grab interactions - it might be worth looking into some. I hope nowadays they must have advanced enough to not leave both characters locked into a hold war for too long, that was kinda boring to look at in the older ones...

grabs are instant and unblockable in general and only work on grounded oponents, a specific grab might break one of these rules, those are just general not absolute.

I kinda like the idea of grabbing airborne opponents if you're grounded yourself (realisticlly, it's hard to impossibl for the victim to resist since they're not grounded themselves unless there's some weird weight shifting going on) - it makes for fun stuff to watch, game-wise you have examples like Daimon's Could Tosser special and the Geese counters, and from a player's point of view it can be a tricky gamble, depending on the implementation.

Quote
grabs are done by pressing two punches or two kicks,

Personally I think throw buttons are something worth implementing despite few to no games using that nowadays: traditionally block beats hit, hit beats throw and throw beats block, but you block with a direction, attack with any button, but need a combination of buttons to throw... just feels odd to me...
And throw buttons would probably help to simplify commands for special throw or Geese-ish counters.

Quote
if the enemy can't get grabbed a grab missed animation will play, currently it last 15 ticks, i will research some games to see if this is not too short thus making them unpunishable, I want p2 to be able to hit you if you fail a grab but not be able to go for a full jump in combo easily.

Perhaps different throw could have different missing animation lengths? It could depend on what kind of throw it is: something that involves pushing an opponent to the floor, applying force with the upper body to the upper boddy seems like it would take higher commitment and recovery than grabbing their head to attack that part of the body directly (thinking Yuri's slaps here).

Quote
there are also special grabs which can or will break most of the rules I am trying to lay out, such as having a super grab be completely unescapable, but as  counter balance, it's mis animation lasts more than estandar.

1. should I make the regualr grab comboable ? what would the advantage be of using them instead of a special or super ? KI2 did this, it had the grab become launchers, I am not using a Ki like combo system, but something closer to kof/sf.

Comboing from the grab or into the grab?

Again, to me it could depend a lot on what the throw looks like: if a throw involves lifting an opponent, odds are you're apply force from below, so it could make sense to combo into that from a low punch attack (hit them in the gut then pick them up and they bend over in pain).

Quote
2. grabs can be cancelled, when two players are close the grab becomes a good option for it will outprioritize any attacks it is instant can get's get hit by attacks for the 1 tick it's grab frame is active; so, when two layer are close theonly options are jump or grab, an attack can be used to beat a jump but talking about grab that means using the punch grab or the kick grab are the only options regarding grab interaction.
Since the grab active frame only lasts one tick, prioritizing if a grab wins over the other is not important, so what should the difference be between the punch and the kick grab ? one thing I tough about i having the type of grab (punch of kick)being input by the player get compared to the grabbing player's , if it's the same it will be a succesfull scape, if it's different it won't. that's kidna too simple and not worth making a topic so I want to make this deeper.

A way to make it work is having punch throw involving using mostly arm strenght, best for pushing someone back, down or holding them for some hits (like Balrog's headbutts or Joe Higashi's grab knee attacks), and kick throws for leg strenght, best for lifting someone ("use the strenght in your legs, not in your back"), trips or the odd frankensteiner-like.

Assuming everyone has 2 throws that make this kind distinction possible (less linear than KoF's punch->forward and kick-> back), maybe then consider the direction of the force applied the primary property, and come up with rules as to which takes priority for any possible interaction of these directions.
But maybe that's too complex, although some factor here and there could be used.


Throw interactions make me think of maybe-not-so-far-fetched situations like Makoto doing that throw where she lefts up an opponent (disregarding the fact that that's a special throw...) while Mai does that one where she flips over the opponent almost SoR-like to throw them in the process using he own weight to help (some characters have the flipping over part only as a special, so I guess that evens things...) - in both cases, in the beginning one character is grounded and the other is lifted, but both can be the thrower, so I wonder how a simultaneous attempt by both would end up.
I end up thinking it a matter of initiative, which kinda involves thinking about 2 different states before the actual throw goes off, which would imply in the very least 2 frames - say, one being the attempt to grab (both Mai and Makoto try to grab each other) and the other the attempt to assert control to consolidate the grab (Makoto is lifting Mai, but Mai was jumping anyway to flip over Makoto, so who's in control?).
If such a second state were to be applied, I guess it would match the boring grappling part of old wrestling games, only perhaps that could be averted by having parameters/algorithms to help decide instantly who, if anyone (if both try to push the other away instead, it could be like a regular hit clash, I guess) gets the upper hand.


Didn't Buriki One give each character s different bar that kept track of their weight/balance, and therefore how hard each of them was to throw?
That made the sumo guy realistically that game's hardest guy to throw, so he seems likely to always win that kind of exchange unless thrown off-balance somehow right before. Then again, in a all-girl game and considering the weight data is practically never given for female characters, this could get tricky...

It would be simpler to figure this out knowing exactly what kind of throws are available for each, a lot of stranger, if plausible, situations could be discarded from the get go, making it possible to focus on what is actually possible.

Quote
I will have it that if both players input a grab, ultimately what will happen is that they will get in a grab struggle regardless of who input the grab first, teh only advantage f inputting the grab first would influencing the otucome of the grab. to getting into a struggle I will add a frame of 5 or more ticks in which p2 can struggle to get out the grab.

Hopefully not button mashing?...

I like the idea of holding a direction to try and change the type of throw (up-lift, back-pull, forward-push/hold, down-trip/pushdown, for example) you'll using compared to the original command, which could be more interesting if you know which directions are favored by the opponent's throws - then again, I'd have to know what they are for everyone to refine the idea...

I also fancy the idea of being able to interrupt a struggle with a regular attack which would do next to no damage (think KoF's guard cancel CD attacks) if, since you intend to throw with punch and kick buttons, and resorting to that button-defines-where/how-you-apply-the-strenght idea, if the throw is attempted with punch, it was likely applied to the upper body and restricting arm movement, but maybe you can kick your way out, same for escaping kick throws with a punch.



Anyway, I'm curious to se what else comes up here...
Re: Various considerations regarding throw interaction.
#3  August 19, 2011, 11:57:25 pm
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LB2 uses 2buttons to throw and has a whiff animation. I am unsure if that would allow you to do a hop and combo.

Unless throws are a supremely integral part of your game, i would keep them simple. The basic throw is almost always a method of beating a turtle. Paper vs rock. Including the ability to not only block basic attacks, but capitalise when the OTHER person throws you is not friendly.

Throws should either be countered at point of impact straight away by a decent read, or they hit and you take the damage. SF3 does them best, if both players press throw at the same time, it cancels and the initiating player bounces back. Although i don't like the buttons you push FOR throw in that, the system works. Unlike KoF2k, where random mashing cancels 90% of the bloody things.


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Re: Various considerations regarding throw interaction.
#4  August 22, 2011, 11:15:52 pm
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LB2 uses 2buttons to throw and has a whiff animation. I am unsure if that would allow you to do a hop and combo.

Unless throws are a supremely integral part of your game, i would keep them simple. The basic throw is almost always a method of beating a turtle. Paper vs rock. Including the ability to not only block basic attacks, but capitalise when the OTHER person throws you is not friendly.

Throws should either be countered at point of impact straight away by a decent read, or they hit and you take the damage. SF3 does them best, if both players press throw at the same time, it cancels and the initiating player bounces back. Although i don't like the buttons you push FOR throw in that, the system works. Unlike KoF2k, where random mashing cancels 90% of the bloody things.

sf3 has got option select, but yeah, it's closely related to the actual buttons you use.
You make a good point about throws being a tool against turtlers, I guess one option to make the reversal more risky if nulling the option select by having the throw miss animation come out instead of getting a crouching attack. another would be to still keep the guy initiating the throw keep a situation of relative advantage.

One thing that made me think that is umineko's meta system; calling the meta world use up one stock, cancelling the call uses two, so the player who initiates the call gains the advantage of spending less power stock.

Using a full power stock to revert a throw might be overkill, but maybe not using a specific amount of power so teh person who initiatez the throwing cna always eb at a relative advantage.
more on this after I reply to loona's.

This topic interests me, although I could probably use some knowledge about "pure" wrestling games to know about interesting examples of grab interactions - it might be worth looking into some. I hope nowadays they must have advanced enough to not leave both characters locked into a hold war for too long, that was kinda boring to look at in the older ones...

yup 5 reversals tops sounds about right, but more importantly stuff has to happen fast.

I kinda like the idea of grabbing airborne opponents if you're grounded yourself (realisticlly, it's hard to impossibl for the victim to resist since they're not grounded themselves unless there's some weird weight shifting going on) - it makes for fun stuff to watch, game-wise you have examples like Daimon's Could Tosser special and the Geese counters, and from a player's point of view it can be a tricky gamble, depending on the implementation.

yep, that's in for special throws and specific characters.

Personally I think throw buttons are something worth implementing despite few to no games using that nowadays: traditionally block beats hit, hit beats throw and throw beats block, but you block with a direction, attack with any button, but need a combination of buttons to throw... just feels odd to me...
And throw buttons would probably help to simplify commands for special throw or Geese-ish counters.
I already have saved up Z and C, I guess I could set up the cmd so it's relatively easy to configure any macross there, since I use AX for rolling/evading and BY fior generic supers.

Perhaps different throw could have different missing animation lengths? It could depend on what kind of throw it is: something that involves pushing an opponent to the floor, applying force with the upper body to the upper boddy seems like it would take higher commitment and recovery than grabbing their head to attack that part of the body directly (thinking Yuri's slaps here).
yu, only for special throws, generic throws will eb heavily standarized.

Comboing from the grab or into the grab?

Again, to me it could depend a lot on what the throw looks like: if a throw involves lifting an opponent, odds are you're apply force from below, so it could make sense to combo into that from a low punch attack (hit them in the gut then pick them up and they bend over in pain).

comboing into regular grabs, only ki has done it, I don't really like being able to combo into a grab instead of a special unless there is an advantage, having the grab work on oponents that are guarding is too cheap, imho; an advantage I can use so ti's preferable to just comboing a special is making the grab cancellable into something else. The game is designed into having  BY trigger generic super that hits under most conditions and cancel cancel any basic attack, plus it combo resets, but it might interrupt the grab animations in annoying ways, I ahe to give it more tought.


A way to make it work is having punch throw involving using mostly arm strenght, best for pushing someone back, down or holding them for some hits (like Balrog's headbutts or Joe Higashi's grab knee attacks), and kick throws for leg strenght, best for lifting someone ("use the strenght in your legs, not in your back"), trips or the odd frankensteiner-like.

Assuming everyone has 2 throws that make this kind distinction possible (less linear than KoF's punch->forward and kick-> back), maybe then consider the direction of the force applied the primary property, and come up with rules as to which takes priority for any possible interaction of these directions.
But maybe that's too complex, although some factor here and there could be used.


Throw interactions make me think of maybe-not-so-far-fetched situations like Makoto doing that throw where she lefts up an opponent (disregarding the fact that that's a special throw...) while Mai does that one where she flips over the opponent almost SoR-like to throw them in the process using he own weight to help (some characters have the flipping over part only as a special, so I guess that evens things...) - in both cases, in the beginning one character is grounded and the other is lifted, but both can be the thrower, so I wonder how a simultaneous attempt by both would end up.
I end up thinking it a matter of initiative, which kinda involves thinking about 2 different states before the actual throw goes off, which would imply in the very least 2 frames - say, one being the attempt to grab (both Mai and Makoto try to grab each other) and the other the attempt to assert control to consolidate the grab (Makoto is lifting Mai, but Mai was jumping anyway to flip over Makoto, so who's in control?).
If such a second state were to be applied, I guess it would match the boring grappling part of old wrestling games, only perhaps that could be averted by having parameters/algorithms to help decide instantly who, if anyone (if both try to push the other away instead, it could be like a regular hit clash, I guess) gets the upper hand.


Didn't Buriki One give each character s different bar that kept track of their weight/balance, and therefore how hard each of them was to throw?
That made the sumo guy realistically that game's hardest guy to throw, so he seems likely to always win that kind of exchange unless thrown off-balance somehow right before. Then again, in a all-girl game and considering the weight data is practically never given for female characters, this could get tricky...

It would be simpler to figure this out knowing exactly what kind of throws are available for each, a lot of stranger, if plausible, situations could be discarded from the get go, making it possible to focus on what is actually possible.

overkill, seeing cyanide's post.

Hopefully not button mashing?...

I like the idea of holding a direction to try and change the type of throw (up-lift, back-pull, forward-push/hold, down-trip/pushdown, for example) you'll using compared to the original command, which could be more interesting if you know which directions are favored by the opponent's throws - then again, I'd have to know what they are for everyone to refine the idea...

I also fancy the idea of being able to interrupt a struggle with a regular attack which would do next to no damage (think KoF's guard cancel CD attacks) if, since you intend to throw with punch and kick buttons, and resorting to that button-defines-where/how-you-apply-the-strenght idea, if the throw is attempted with punch, it was likely applied to the upper body and restricting arm movement, but maybe you can kick your way out, same for escaping kick throws with a punch.

Yeah, no button mashing, I watched a game that would have visible arrows when on a power struggle, so the player who inputs the directions in the screen (up, down, etc..) faster would win the struggle, i do not particularly favor this setup becuase it does not seem to give an advantage to the initiating player or use up any power, but something akin to that (reflexes over mashing) sounds good to me.


--- not a direct reply, this is all brainstorming so it might sound/be stupid.

All characters woudl have generic "initiating grab" and "struggle" animations for this
so, p1 initiates the grab, p2 counter the grab by inputting a grab command it uses up 500 power, now they are tied; , once both characters are in struggle
a) they can input grabs again and the one who input second gets power penalized? i don't really feel this.
b) they can input specific sequences, I don't see whether the guy who input the first grab has any advantage.

ok, maybe what they can do is that both can input a grab again, get a succesful grab but whetehr it was p1 or p2 the one who gets succes 500p gets used, so for a succesful grab, p1 used 500 total, while p2 used 1000; sounds fair I like where this goes.

but maybe they don't input a grab but just a regular button press, that has them both going into their idle stance.

currently this means that it does not matter whether the grab was initiated witha punch or kick; i can live with that, but a small advantage can also be given, like having the distance of the "go back to idle" be fixed depending on what was pressed to star the grab. i.e., the first grab was done with the kick buttons so they are gonna end up far, if it was a punch grab both are gonna be close, so p1 has the control over that but it does not give a big advantage.

I apologyze over the late reply(es), but Ic an hardly get into pc using mood during the weekend, working 12 hours shift during the week on the pc.
Re: Various considerations regarding throw interaction.
#5  August 23, 2011, 02:26:56 am
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Comboing from the grab or into the grab?

Again, to me it could depend a lot on what the throw looks like: if a throw involves lifting an opponent, odds are you're apply force from below, so it could make sense to combo into that from a low punch attack (hit them in the gut then pick them up and they bend over in pain).

comboing into regular grabs, only ki has done it, I don't really like being able to combo into a grab instead of a special unless there is an advantage, having the grab work on oponents that are guarding is too cheap, imho; an advantage I can use so ti's preferable to just comboing a special is making the grab cancellable into something else. The game is designed into having  BY trigger generic super that hits under most conditions and cancel cancel any basic attack, plus it combo resets, but it might interrupt the grab animations in annoying ways, I ahe to give it more tought.

i was thinking more along the lines of only allowing to combo specific hits that connect properly into some (possibly regular) throws. Then again, I practically don't play grapplers, so I never focused much on the intricacies of forcing an opponent into a blocking state to try and grab from there - in principle comboing from a clean hit sounds legit enough, but maybe I'm missing something.

Quote
Yeah, no button mashing, I watched a game that would have visible arrows when on a power struggle, so the player who inputs the directions in the screen (up, down, etc..) faster would win the struggle, i do not particularly favor this setup becuase it does not seem to give an advantage to the initiating player or use up any power, but something akin to that (reflexes over mashing) sounds good to me.

Did that system involve both characters inputting the same direction or different ones for each?

A very rough concept comes to mind of some sort of system where a character initiates a throw, and for simplicity's sake lets say it's some sort of push, so its direction is forward (let's assume the direction is held during the throw - which may change a bit as seen below) - if the opponent doesn't react within a short time frame (calling it something like grapple-time as a sort of unit to reference it again later - should last no more than a few seconds to keep things quick), the throw proceeds fine, damage is done, no extra power consumed, the fight resumes as normal.

However, if in the short time frame mentioned the opponent manages to react, there could be 2 options:

- hold the same direction the original attacker is using to sort of "go with the flow" (something like this is done in Aikido) and take reduced damage - which is what happens if the directions coincide during a grapple-time unit

- hold the opposite direction to resist, and both characters consume power (say, a few points per tick; ideally it's possible to see it drop to see if the opponent's resisting) as long as their directions clash - this in turn opens some possibilities:
* the characters' directions clash for a full unit of grapple-time, both lose some power and push each other away
* one of the characters runs out of power in the process and automatically loses the clash, so gets thrown
* at least one of them changes the direction mid-grapple (original attacker tries to direct the throw the opposite way, turning the opponent's resistance in his favor, so if both are aligned long enough he still throws, even if for less damage, and saves some power; the defender may guess the attacker going to try and change the direction as soon as he sees the power dropping, so changes the direction early to avoid getting throw the other way)

A final decision would have to take place within a time internal only slightly higher than a grapple-time unit (maybe 2 or 3 times as long?...), so that if no state stayed consistent for a full grapple-unit, whatever state applied at the end of that would define the outcome.


It's kinda late so I didn't really think the whole thing through - as it stands, the advantage is still with the original thrower unless the defender resists and has more power bar, a circumstance under which it might not even be a good idea to bother to try to throw... I'm thinking only in terms of holding (only 2...) directions as far as resistance options go, but using the attack/throw buttons it's probably quite possible to come up with a fair way for a prepared defender to turn things around even with a power disadvantage (opposite direction: punch vs. punch resist only, punch vs kick the defender can turn things around; same direction: punch vs punch avoid throw completely, punch vs kick take less damage?...)...

In any case, the amounts of time defined could change a lot how likely it would be for a throw to be reacted to in the first place, and therefore how relevant the whole resistance/"going with the flow" mechanic thing would actually be...
Re: Various considerations regarding throw interaction.
#6  August 24, 2011, 06:02:25 pm
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i was thinking more along the lines of only allowing to combo specific hits that connect properly into some (possibly regular) throws. Then again, I practically don't play grapplers, so I never focused much on the intricacies of forcing an opponent into a blocking state to try and grab from there - in principle comboing from a clean hit sounds legit enough, but maybe I'm missing something.

Yah, i will only let combo into special throws, regular throws won't be comboable.

Did that system involve both characters inputting the same direction or different ones for each?

A very rough concept comes to mind of some sort of system where a character initiates a throw, and for simplicity's sake lets say it's some sort of push, so its direction is forward (let's assume the direction is held during the throw - which may change a bit as seen below) - if the opponent doesn't react within a short time frame (calling it something like grapple-time as a sort of unit to reference it again later - should last no more than a few seconds to keep things quick), the throw proceeds fine, damage is done, no extra power consumed, the fight resumes as normal.

However, if in the short time frame mentioned the opponent manages to react, there could be 2 options:

- hold the same direction the original attacker is using to sort of "go with the flow" (something like this is done in Aikido) and take reduced damage - which is what happens if the directions coincide during a grapple-time unit

- hold the opposite direction to resist, and both characters consume power (say, a few points per tick; ideally it's possible to see it drop to see if the opponent's resisting) as long as their directions clash - this in turn opens some possibilities:
* the characters' directions clash for a full unit of grapple-time, both lose some power and push each other away
* one of the characters runs out of power in the process and automatically loses the clash, so gets thrown
* at least one of them changes the direction mid-grapple (original attacker tries to direct the throw the opposite way, turning the opponent's resistance in his favor, so if both are aligned long enough he still throws, even if for less damage, and saves some power; the defender may guess the attacker going to try and change the direction as soon as he sees the power dropping, so changes the direction early to avoid getting throw the other way)

A final decision would have to take place within a time internal only slightly higher than a grapple-time unit (maybe 2 or 3 times as long?...), so that if no state stayed consistent for a full grapple-unit, whatever state applied at the end of that would define the outcome.


It's kinda late so I didn't really think the whole thing through - as it stands, the advantage is still with the original thrower unless the defender resists and has more power bar, a circumstance under which it might not even be a good idea to bother to try to throw... I'm thinking only in terms of holding (only 2...) directions as far as resistance options go, but using the attack/throw buttons it's probably quite possible to come up with a fair way for a prepared defender to turn things around even with a power disadvantage (opposite direction: punch vs. punch resist only, punch vs kick the defender can turn things around; same direction: punch vs punch avoid throw completely, punch vs kick take less damage?...)...

In any case, the amounts of time defined could change a lot how likely it would be for a throw to be reacted to in the first place, and therefore how relevant the whole resistance/"going with the flow" mechanic thing would actually be...

nice Idea, I will go with that I posted right before, but then adjust taking this in consideration.