You know how much money and time that would take? Especially in a country where everyone's scared of everyone, where lawsuits are constantly thrown around like tomorrow won't come, etc. Too many of those checks and subsequent "investigations" would amount to non-issues and would result in watsed time. The government(s) as some point just said to itself, we have to let it go because 'we can't patrol everything' (even if strict gun control was mandated).

Not necessarily. There are many people who anyone could suspect of having links to terrorist organizations who simply can't be surveyed because the resources aren't available.

It's even harder to police someone like Holmes because there are thousands if not millions of general civilians who share his story.

Four handguns, maybe. But what about a shotgun, an assault rifle, smoke grenades and whatever else he had ? The guy bought four assault-grade heavy weapons. How is that alone not a high enough level of suspicion ?

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The simple fact is that psychos are unpredictable.

If the psychiatrists he was seeing actually noticed that he was preparing those things, doesn't that say it was actually predictable ?

Maybe it isn't always so, maybe psychos aren't always followed by a psychiatrist. But even if you can't account for all the psychos, there are those you can see (and you actually do see), so what about them ?

Iced said, August 06, 2012, 03:55:07 pm

I assumed all of those are already tracked!!! >:| Wtf, why wouldnt those things be tracked for all the reasons ive said.
Val, you mean to tell me you have no social security id or citizen id?

The reason why is because there are simply too many people to be tracked in that case. In my High School, by my graduating year, teachers and students had made complaints about at least 60 kids that they thought would be "school shooters" and to everyone's surprise (not mine, but many of us) none of them actually did anything - I live in the 3rd richest county of the US, btw. People in this country are just way too paranoid.

Especially in a country where everyone's scared of everyone, where lawsuits are constantly thrown around like tomorrow won't come, etc.

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len1231234 said, August 06, 2012, 04:17:36 pm

About the psychiatrist being able to see that he was planning this... people say things like this all the time, that doesn't necessarily mean they'll do it. The psychiatrist might even have reported it to the cops, chances are he would have been interrogated and let go anyway.
And don't get this wrong, psychiatry is like a fad here. So many people go into those offices and say whatever. The psychiatrist really can't tell whether or not you'll do something. even if you say it, because the extremity of words is so common here (especially in psychiatrical offices) that it is barely ever taken seriously. Most times it's just regarded as "honest venting."

I was more concerned about the whole part where someone can actually buy four weapons like those ones - AND on top of that have a psychiatrist who picks up those tendencies. The psychiatrist bit would be the last step, the last check, especially since it's supposed to be confidential. The selling of those weapons would be the first flag - I'd say it shouldn't even happen. If anyone is concerned about that, then they should speak up, make a group, etc.

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Wherever he bought them probably had a bunch of people come and do the same without hearing about a mass murder from 4 months later.

The fourth one to sell him his heavy weapon sold a heavy weapon to someone who already had 3. Why would that gun seller think it was okay ? Because he didn't know Holmes had 3 like that already ? So why did he not know, then ?

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Psychos who are accounted for wouldn't be allowed to buy weapons. Holmes's psychiatric treatment apparently wasn't that formal(?), so a background check was unlikely to bring that up.

Background check might not have picked up that he was a psycho, but as I was saying to len, it certainly should have picked up that he had 3 heavy weapons already. Even 2. Hell, that he already had even one assault rifle[/spolier]

len1231234 said, August 06, 2012, 04:01:31 pm

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Iced said, August 06, 2012, 03:55:07 pm

I assumed all of those are already tracked!!! >:| Wtf, why wouldnt those things be tracked for all the reasons ive said.
Val, you mean to tell me you have no social security id or citizen id?

The reason why is because there are simply too many people to be tracked in that case. In my High School, by my graduating year, teachers and students had made complaints about at least 60 kids that they thought would be "school shooters" and to everyone's surprise (not mine, but many of us) none of them actually did anything - I live in the 3rd richest county of the US, btw. People in this country are just way too paranoid.

Are you talking only about guns, or also about things such as cars ? If you regulate cars, you can also regulate guns at some point, no ?
It shouldn't be too hard to put in place a system where a gun retailer would be able to check the background of the guy who wants to purchase one. And each time a weapon is bought, its ID is sent to a police file.
This sounds contradictory to me (especially for the country spending the most in military defense, one would think you'd regulate your own citizens before the rest of the world) :

len1231234 said, August 06, 2012, 03:41:01 pm

Especially in a country where everyone's scared of everyone, where lawsuits are constantly thrown around like tomorrow won't come, etc.

Isn't this usually the motivation for regulation ? When people are so scared of others, isn't this when the government acts as Big Brother ? I'm not saying it's necessarily a good thing. The government should NOT check on every single little thing you do and look into your private life, but controlling things such as houses (do you actually live here), cars (is it actually your car and do you have a license) and guns (do you have the right to carry those) makes sense and is needed to ensure security (and taxes ...) at some point.

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i believe discussion about the amount of guns/type of guns is kind of moot. instead of buying rifles and shotguns he could've just bought two handguns. because two handguns is all you can get with these new theoretical laws. two handguns is all you can get without a deeper background check, without a psychiatrist evaluating you for 5 hours (assuming these are master psychiatrists that guarantee this person will absolutely never, ever malfunction). then he'd be a guy in armor with two handguns surrounded by tear gas. that's still absolutely fucking dangerous. he would've just killed a couple less people. it would still have been a tragedy.

the chris benoit example brought up by len is a good one. this was someone who was considered normal among his peers. when news of his death and his family's death broke they mostly thought it was an accident or someone murdered them. benoit being the muderer never crossed their minds. they even made the show a tribute to him and his career. this is someone that murdered a woman and a child with his bare fucking hands. no guns involved whatsoever.

what i meant by culture (which was a sentence i worded poorly i definitely admit) was just everything surrounding the country. all the other factors that cause crime, gang violence, home violence and suicides. the same factors that affect crime and violence in other countries. it's not just guns.

i believe discussion about the amount of guns/type of guns is kind of moot. instead of buying rifles and shotguns he could've just bought two handguns. because two handguns is all you can get with these new theoretical laws. two handguns is all you can get without a deeper background check, without a psychiatrist evaluating you for 5 hours (assuming these are master psychiatrists that guarantee this person will absolutely never, ever malfunction). then he'd be a guy in armor with two handguns surrounded by tear gas. that's still absolutely fucking dangerous. he would've just killed a couple less people. it would still have been a tragedy.