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Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history) (Read 32812 times)

Started by GTOAkira, June 12, 2016, 05:09:25 pm
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Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#41  June 13, 2016, 02:54:36 am
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Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#42  June 13, 2016, 02:57:47 am
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lemme start by saying im a liberal, and a large majority of the indian half of my family is muslim, and we have many muslim family and friends. homophobia is rampant not just among them, but in islam in general. at least 5 passages in the qu'ran explicitly say it is wrong. this is the word of allah that all muslims, radical or not, -should- be prescribing to if they can be called true muslims. the muslim americans you see in the media celebrating same sex marraige are great, but they are a vocal minority and without some sort of enlightenment or reformation cannot be called devout muslims. most islamic scholars view heterosexuality as a biological absolute, and reza aslan was met with a lot of backlash for asking people to think differently. liberals need to address this homophobia rather than make excuses for it. its a stated crime under islamic law, meaning the sharia courts established in the west can sentence you to punishment over it. when you have people like farrokh sekaleshfar speaking at united states universities preaching that protection of the soul is more important than the body, and that it should be punished in some cases by death, theres a problem. this guy isnt isis or a radical. hes a recognized islamic scholar speaking at interfaith venues. theres a problem. we need to wisen up and start calling them out on it. if islam wants to view this as a crime, that is there prerogative. but this sort of shit cannot be condoned and apologized for in the west. islam needs to be criticized for these views, the same way white evangelicals were and are. these views are held by a large majority of muslims radical or not.
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Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 03:01:08 am by Umezono
Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#43  June 13, 2016, 03:03:15 am
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it's true, islam rejects homosexuality and views it as a sin.
but it doesn't force it's practitioners to go out and start killing gays.
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Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#44  June 13, 2016, 03:03:31 am
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Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#45  June 13, 2016, 03:08:19 am
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Shit, we live in a homophobic world. :(
Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#46  June 13, 2016, 03:10:38 am
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it's true, islam rejects homosexuality and views it as a sin.
but it doesn't force it's practitioners to go out and start killing gays.
Quran (7:80-84) - "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

Quran (4:16) - "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone"

Abu Dawud (4462) - The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.".

Abu Dawud (4448) - "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death."

al-Tirmidhi, Sunan 1:152 - [Muhammad said] "Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver."

This is implicit acceptance and allowance of this sort of violence. Islam has had no enlightenment or change in these texts ie. the old testament. I would think as long as this is considered the holy word, Islam preaches it is okay to kill people for this. There needs to be some of sort of reform within the religion imo.
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Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#47  June 13, 2016, 03:18:49 am
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why not just tell them the word is actually made specifically for control and just drop out of it and relearn life? You should see the Holy Bible. damn thing condones rape, sodomy, sex slavery you name it but it's "The Good Book".
I don't care if you are phobic of anything, if you do not like it, ignore it, Idc what imaginary God you preach to state, it does not give you the right to outright cause genocide simply because it's different from what you see and different shit should be offended and destroyed in thy mindset.
Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#48  June 13, 2016, 03:21:26 am
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I honestly don't know, with so much worse epidemics going on in the world like murders, rapes, robberies

why some people still waste their time hating gays who doesn't do anything bad to anyone.
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Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#49  June 13, 2016, 03:22:32 am
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This is implicit acceptance and allowance of this sort of violence. Islam has had no enlightenment or change in these texts ie. the old testament.
Neither does the bible. The New Testament mostly dodges the subject and the best cases for/against accepting homosexuality depends on which translation you read and how biased your personal interpretation is.

Muslims don't need to change their religious view. What they DO need to understand is that if they want to stone sodomites to death they need to move to ISIS territory, but if they want to live in the western world they have to abide by our liberal and secular (and quite honestly superior) values, including individual liberty, women's rights and freedom of sexual expression.
Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#50  June 13, 2016, 03:25:43 am
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Yeah, I would agree, thats why I said its their prerogative to believe such things. The West just can't allow this sort of stuff to be accepted and apologized for within their own borders. Integration is pretty key here.
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Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#51  June 13, 2016, 03:29:38 am
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Some of them who are insecure in the head might not bend well to suggestion. Hence why shit like this is happening. I don't really know how any of this can stop, but to hopefully see if people are smart enough to realize that stuff like genocide and whatnot is morally wrong, even when it's stated to be holy.
Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#52  June 13, 2016, 03:43:30 am
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look im sorry this happened, i really am. but the religion is not that simple, there's layers of rules and different interpretations of the hadith and quran. things that are still being studied now. when the hadith just vaguely says "kill the doer and receiver" don't you think we need more details on that?
islam is not just hadith and quran, the scholars who interpret those two explain a lot of things that may sound direct to people but in actuality they have alot of rules for them.
i lived in saudi arabia and while i was in high school i saw alot people getting caught having gay sex. guess how many where executed? none.
only psychopaths choose to interpret the words of the religion maliciously to serve their agenda, otherwise every muslim would go out there and start killing gays. which is obviously not the case.
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Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 03:51:20 am by Gennos
Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#53  June 13, 2016, 03:57:04 am
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thats good. everyone interprets it differently. its better those kids in your high school werent. it would be a serious problem if they were. however, it doesnt change the fact that stuff is in there. if the qu'ran outright said "dont kill gays" and someone killed a bunch of gays in the name of islam, we wouldnt be having this coversation. i don't think all muslims are murderous psychopaths. but the ones that are get their ideas STRAIGHT out of these texts.

also yeah, i know saying just kill is vague, but its still saying to kill them, all rules notwithstanding. meaning in some capacity, they are okay with gays dying for being gay.
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Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#54  June 13, 2016, 03:57:35 am
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It's not so much that it outright states it (it does), more that it insinuates the idea that it's okay to harm those who go against religious views.

We're in a time were women, minorities, and gays are promoted to be seen as equals. And anyone who goes against this idea are rotten fucks with outdated views. The idea that sacred scriptures from a thousand year old book would reject, vilify, and and dehumanize those who engage in "perverse acts" isn't something that should need elaboration.
Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#55  June 13, 2016, 04:02:17 am
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This is implicit acceptance and allowance of this sort of violence. Islam has had no enlightenment or change in these texts ie. the old testament.
Neither does the bible. The New Testament mostly dodges the subject and the best cases for/against accepting homosexuality depends on which translation you read and how biased your personal interpretation is.

Muslims don't need to change their religious view. What they DO need to understand is that if they want to stone sodomites to death they need to move to ISIS territory, but if they want to live in the western world they have to abide by our liberal and secular (and quite honestly superior) values, including individual liberty, women's rights and freedom of sexual expression.

Why would they cope with our "degenerates" values when they could just take over the world(beginning from europe) and then wipe us out?

Like it or not, muslims aren't able to live in peace with liberals, i wonder how much longer will take to people figure this out.
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Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#56  June 13, 2016, 04:06:25 am
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once again, I'm totally for religious freedom. if they hold that 1000 year old book to be law, they can do it in their countries. Yet its fucking awful what they do to gays in their country and thats why countries like the US should be a place where people can be gay or whatever they want without fear of these religious freaks murdering them. Just like Muslims should be free from persecution here for being Muslim.

People need to realize that Islam's teachings are definitely a factor in the the problem, and stop making excuses and allowances for it. They need to realize integration is the only peaceful way we can coexist, and that religion needs to stay personal and should not encroach on others. If Islam allows for such encroaching, or implicitly allows it, it needs to be called out and stopped from doing so.

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This is implicit acceptance and allowance of this sort of violence. Islam has had no enlightenment or change in these texts ie. the old testament.
Neither does the bible. The New Testament mostly dodges the subject and the best cases for/against accepting homosexuality depends on which translation you read and how biased your personal interpretation is.

Muslims don't need to change their religious view. What they DO need to understand is that if they want to stone sodomites to death they need to move to ISIS territory, but if they want to live in the western world they have to abide by our liberal and secular (and quite honestly superior) values, including individual liberty, women's rights and freedom of sexual expression.

Why would they cope with our "degenerates" values when they could just take over the world(beginning from europe) and then wipe us out?

Like it or not, muslims aren't able to live in peace with liberals, i wonder how much longer will take to people figure this out.
If you don't know what you're talking about, don't say dumb shit like this.

Muslims CAN and have lived in peace in the West for generations. Their views are antithetical to ours, sure, but so are KKK members and such. You cannot police thoughtcrime.

The problem in the West (particularly Europe) is nobody wants to acknowledge that allowing an entire subset of people with religious views radically different to ours to exist among others with no attempts at integration causes these problems, and they accuse anyone of bringing up these differences of Islamophobia.
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Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#57  June 13, 2016, 04:07:16 am
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Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#58  June 13, 2016, 04:09:58 am
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if the qu'ran outright said "dont kill gays"

the bible does and it does not seem to work.

if this is the case (not a scholar of the bible) its still easier to say radical christian killers are not indicative of the whole religion imo. the religion says dont kill, christians who kill are going against their religion by doing so, and can't be considered true members of that religion.

edit: also, can we really compare the two here? with islam, you have islamic led governments (that submit to these ideologies and teachings) allowing for state sanctioned execution of gays. where is the christian equivalent? if a christian murders a gay in the west, he's locked up and thrown in jail. some of his crazy fb friends might martyr him but thats it. the religion as a whole does not go to the same length as islam has.

disclaimer: im not religious myself and have plenty of disdain for antiquated christian views.
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Last Edit: June 13, 2016, 04:14:45 am by Umezono
Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#59  June 13, 2016, 04:20:17 am
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Christianity and Judaism are as bad at core as Islam, the only difference is that the people from Israel and the western world have secular values to keep the zealotry in check. Muslims don't.
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once again, I'm totally for religious freedom. if they hold that 1000 year old book to be law, they can do it in their countries.
We ALSO need to start calling out those ass backwards islamic shitholes for what they are.

So Saudi Arabia, you want to flog atheists? That's fine and dandy but you're a totalitarian terrorist state only marginally better ISIS occupied Syria, and you don't deserve a saying in the affairs of the UN -  much less a seat in the human rights' council -  just because you sell cheap oil.

PS: Wahabism is shit. And the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights is shit too.
Re: Orlando Shooting (deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history)
#60  June 13, 2016, 04:24:16 am
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My two cents on the above two comments...can't remember the last time someone said i do this in the name of Jesus,and proceeded to kill everyone in the room....maybe abortion clinic's? But that was usually to kill the doctors involved,and like was said their are several countries that call themselves "Christian" countries,but none follow and make rules and laws based on scripture...can u say the same for Islamic countries?