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Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building (Read 53117 times)

Started by RobotMonkeyHead, December 26, 2012, 08:07:39 pm
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Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#1  December 26, 2012, 08:07:39 pm
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Hello all,
   I want to write up an intermediate level polishing tutorial.  I know there are a million and a half common mistakes made when coding a character, so I'm hoping we can discuss some of them, and how you think they can be fixed.  The purpose being to provide a framework or a well defined series of steps that a person with basic or intermediate coding skills could follow to polish up the finer details of existing characters.

  I guess I'll start with something simple by saying that I notice a lot of poor alignment and timing in animations which leads to jerky movement and just a sloppy appearance in general.  The steps I take to fix that are this:  Go into FF, load the char, and first check out their standing animation and make sure the feet stay in the same position throughout.  Then check the x and y offsets of the first sprite in the standing animation, and then go into the 'crouch', 'stand to crouch' and 'crouch to stand' animations.  In all of these, I add an extra 1st and last frame of the standing sprite (at the proper) offset with a tick count of 30, and play the animation to make sure their feet hold position again.  Because the feet move often, choose one foot to anchor for any given motion.  Which one is usually obvious if you imagine a person performing the motion.  Once I have the foot positioning solid, I check the tick counts of each frame to make sure everything is smooth and nothing is 'jerky' that isn't supposed to be.  Certain frames may need to be changed or added. 
   When the movement, timing and alignments are good, I delete that extra frames I added.  I then do the same thing for all the standing and crouching basics (using a crouch sprite to check the crouching basics of course).  Then I go into the jumping anims and do the same thing, adding the standing animation in the first frame to make sure the jump comes out of the standing position ok.  Then take a jumping frame and do the same thing to all of the aerial basics, but paying more attention to their waste position (center of gravity while in the air) or their head position depending on the motion.  Of course this can be applied to specials, supers, hypers, throws, blocks, or whatever other animations you want.  In short I usually call that re-timing and realigning a characters animations for foot position or ground anchoring.  It's also a great chance to review the clsns.

   I'm sure you all have a ton of other polishing techniques that could be applied to almost any character, so if we can get enough of them together I'll assemble them into a polishing manual / tutorial. 
 
Re: How to Polish a Character (Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building Purposes)
#2  December 26, 2012, 09:59:06 pm
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Good alignment in the sff is required from the beginning. If you have axis rips, this is easy. If they're made up it takes longer. There is no need to enter the .air file. Turn on onion skin. All standing or crouch sprites should have a foot placed in the same place as 0,0. Use natural motion if a foot needs to move during animations. You should still always return to the base sprite point.

Walking takes practice. So does jumping. Although jumping is easier if you treat the alignment as their center of gravity. Normally the small of their back should not go anywhere.

The most important thing when polishing becomes "Is this as good as i can possibly make things without help?" if the answer to that is no, you need to keep going.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#3  December 31, 2012, 10:17:25 pm
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A little testing goes a long way. Using a training dummy like Training by Stupa will let you see your character's frame data. This will allow you to see what links are and aren't possible and if you want them to be possible. Hitstun/blockstun combined with recovery are the basis of frame data. If hitstun/blockstun lasts too long, it needs either to be shortened or the move's recovery to be lengthened unless you want a very hitstun heavy character.

It's also a good idea to use Training to check if a move can be recovered in the air or how quickly the opponent can get up off the ground after an attack. Again, this helps balance combos and see if you want options like that in your character. It'll also help if you want to see if you coded a super correctly and if the opponent can recover out of it.

Damage output is also very important. You'll want to make sure that if your character does a lot of damage, make sure it's either very difficult to get that much damage (like from a long combo) or perhaps make your character slow and difficult to start a combo with. If your character does a lot of damage but is slow, that makes the few opportunities to start its combos all the more precious.
Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#4  December 31, 2012, 10:35:04 pm
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Something I found very useful is that when you're coding (esp. editing the common files even slightly), don't just dummy test.

Load up your character in your MUGEN and fight against something with rigorous AI. A lot of bugs I had when I edited guarding I found through this because it forces you to move differently than in dummy tests.
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#5  December 31, 2012, 10:49:50 pm
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rigorous AI
Looks like
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Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#6  December 31, 2012, 10:50:58 pm
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rigorous, not batshit insane
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#7  December 31, 2012, 10:59:10 pm
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Batshit crazy. I forgot about that quote. Love it.

It's interesting you mention this RMH. First of all, I think your edits are fantastic. I also think its great that you're reaching out to members with this idea of yours. Which leads me to say...

... I'm getting the itch to dive into character creation. I love doing high quality portrait work, so I want that level of diligence to carry in to character development/creation. I have also been obsessing over Eternal Champions lately and would love to create content based off of that severely underrated title. With modifications and improvements, of course!!
All of your Mugen Portrait needs may be found HERE.

I'd like to report two robots on the MFG forums: One is EXShadow. The other is Saikoro.
There should be a Saikoro plugin for Photoshop.
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#8  December 31, 2012, 11:47:32 pm
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Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?
Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 06:44:12 am by Madam CanCan
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#9  January 03, 2013, 04:41:09 am
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@Madam CanCan: You got it my friend. Actually, you and RMH here would be the first two of about 6 people I'd automatically give testing reigns to. I'd really love to give Eternal Champions some love. Trident would be my very first character.

This isn't going to happen right away. Lots of portrait work still needs to be done. I'll figure It out. Until that point, I could study up on RMH's tutorials as well as Ryon's videos. Damn I love it here!! :sugoi:
All of your Mugen Portrait needs may be found HERE.

I'd like to report two robots on the MFG forums: One is EXShadow. The other is Saikoro.
There should be a Saikoro plugin for Photoshop.
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#10  January 03, 2013, 04:59:18 am
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@Saikoro: You are ready to unleash the beast upon your unsuspecting creation in the indefinite future. :twisted:
Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#11  January 03, 2013, 11:54:07 am
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this is a VERY cool idea: take it from someone who doesn't have a single clue about coding in general whatsoever and coding involved in a mugen character, it is fucking hard when "all" you have is the regular docs... now that we have nice enough people (like Ryon) who actually take the time to show and explain to you how the whole thing kind of works, having a possible tutorial would be a most excellent add-on for sure!
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#12  January 03, 2013, 12:17:31 pm
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Probably not character polishing but more as an after-service, but I like it when my MUGEN games/chars (stages or addons I care less about) come with very good documentation; beyond the usual readme.txt file.

A good example is XCB's Genkai that comes with a compiled help file. Although outdated today, it was a very nice touch. It contained simple screenshots, commands, history/story of the characters, bugs/errors, credits, etc, like a real game manual. Text files are boring to read unless it's on GameFAQs, and generally an illustrated guide is always a welcome addition. It'll stop people asking as many questions too (some creators like to be cryptic about what the character can do).

Added bonus would be, given today's standards (in and out of the MUGEN world):

1. Website
2. Leading to a development blog
3. Commentary (lol but hey there's commentary for literally anything nowadays)
4. Social networking; attempting to address people (fans?) who ask intelligent stuff -- not really important but could be an important skill to have given today's industry. The guys at Blizzard have mastered this to its finest
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Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#13  January 03, 2013, 10:41:22 pm
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Good alignment in the sff is required from the beginning. If you have axis rips, this is easy. If they're made up it takes longer. There is no need to enter the .air file. Turn on onion skin. All standing or crouch sprites should have a foot placed in the same place as 0,0. Use natural motion if a foot needs to move during animations. You should still always return to the base sprite point.

Walking takes practice. So does jumping. Although jumping is easier if you treat the alignment as their center of gravity. Normally the small of their back should not go anywhere.

The most important thing when polishing becomes "Is this as good as i can possibly make things without help?" if the answer to that is no, you need to keep going.
Using the onion skin to get the sprite alignments right in the first place sounds great.  It will likely require realigning all the animations, but if that's something they're going to do anyway, this sounds like the logical first step.  Also, yeah the small of the back is a great point for aligning aerial basics, certainly will mention that.  Alignment (of the y axis I assume) on their center of gravity is great too.


A little testing goes a long way. Using a training dummy like Training by Stupa will let you see your character's frame data. This will allow you to see what links are and aren't possible and if you want them to be possible. Hitstun/blockstun combined with recovery are the basis of frame data. If hitstun/blockstun lasts too long, it needs either to be shortened or the move's recovery to be lengthened unless you want a very hitstun heavy character.

It's also a good idea to use Training to check if a move can be recovered in the air or how quickly the opponent can get up off the ground after an attack. Again, this helps balance combos and see if you want options like that in your character. It'll also help if you want to see if you coded a super correctly and if the opponent can recover out of it.
Excellent.  I'll provide a link to the Training Dummy in the tutorial, along with a a write up of how to use the data it provides.  Any more expansion on ideas of how to use the training dummy for polishing seem like they're going to be key.

Damage output is also very important. You'll want to make sure that if your character does a lot of damage, make sure it's either very difficult to get that much damage (like from a long combo) or perhaps make your character slow and difficult to start a combo with. If your character does a lot of damage but is slow, that makes the few opportunities to start its combos all the more precious.

Ok, maybe we can start with some suggested base ranges for different character types/fighting styles (adjusted for the characters specifics of course)?
Here's a format suggestion, the values are totally just place holders, but maybe we could say for your typical brawler style character you'll want damage ranges in the neighborhood of:
qp  [30-60]
mp [40-90]
fp   [80-120]
etc..
Then include notes like:
1) If the character is very combo heavy, lean toward the lighter end of the range, otherwise the heavier.
2) If the character has a lot of projectiles or ranged moves, lean toward the lighter side, otherwise the heavier.
3) If your characters defense or life is higher than average lean accordingly toward the lighter end.
etc...
Enough basic key factors to make it useful without being redundant or overly complicated.
What do you guys think?


Something I found very useful is that when you're coding (esp. editing the common files even slightly), don't just dummy test.

Load up your character in your MUGEN and fight against something with rigorous AI. A lot of bugs I had when I edited guarding I found through this because it forces you to move differently than in dummy tests.
For sure.  It might be a good idea to establish a trial list of characters to pit them against.  Characters that really exploit the shit out of their coding, and put them in all sorts of weird states and whatnot.  Maybe we could get it down to a handful of them that cover most or all angles?


Probably not character polishing but more as an after-service, but I like it when my MUGEN games/chars (stages or addons I care less about) come with very good documentation; beyond the usual readme.txt file.

A good example is XCB's Genkai that comes with a compiled help file. Although outdated today, it was a very nice touch. It contained simple screenshots, commands, history/story of the characters, bugs/errors, credits, etc, like a real game manual. Text files are boring to read unless it's on GameFAQs, and generally an illustrated guide is always a welcome addition. It'll stop people asking as many questions too (some creators like to be cryptic about what the character can do).

Added bonus would be, given today's standards (in and out of the MUGEN world):

1. Website
2. Leading to a development blog
3. Commentary (lol but hey there's commentary for literally anything nowadays)
4. Social networking; attempting to address people (fans?) who ask intelligent stuff -- not really important but could be an important skill to have given today's industry. The guys at Blizzard have mastered this to its finest
Yeah I hear that.  Generating a moves list from the cmd file if there isn't one would certainly be a good step.  Linking to a feedback thread (and or the creators site) in the characters files too.  Strategy guides for characters can be found here and there (Madam CanCan?), so I will definitely mention seeking those out and including them, as well as where to look.


Great stuff so far guys!
 


      Posted: January 03, 2013, 10:50:20 pm
Batshit crazy. I forgot about that quote. Love it.

It's interesting you mention this RMH. First of all, I think your edits are fantastic. I also think its great that you're reaching out to members with this idea of yours. Which leads me to say...

... I'm getting the itch to dive into character creation. I love doing high quality portrait work, so I want that level of diligence to carry in to character development/creation. I have also been obsessing over Eternal Champions lately and would love to create content based off of that severely underrated title. With modifications and improvements, of course!!
Thanks Saikoro.  You certainly do have great a eye, by your portraits.  I can imagine how that will carry over into your creations!  I think the most helpful thing for you in my tutorials would probably be the Basics of Coding in the editing one.  It explains pretty simply how the mugen engine reads code, and what it does with it.  It should give you a relatively solid foundation to start building your understanding from.  Hope it helps!  And yeah, I'll certainly be down for testing out some of your characters!  I would suggest doing at least one edit first of a simple but clean character (cvg spawn is a great example), just so you can see a how a well structured, well labeled character looks.  If you start with some spaghetti monster of code like alucards batman, it might be kind of 'discouraging' to say the least.  Those things are a nightmare even for experienced coders.  Anyway, good luck with your inspirations, I'll be keepin an eye out ;)


Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#14  January 04, 2013, 12:42:11 am
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Training can even check head.pos and a few others. Fool with it and it'll come in very handy. If you don't have it, MFFA has a link to it on Mediafire.
The damage suggestion format seems rather solid. You might also want to include standard damage for things like Dragon Punches and fireballs. Also damage values for maybe a super fireball or a ranbu super and different levels (1-3, for example).
Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#15  January 04, 2013, 01:14:30 am
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Training can even check head.pos and a few others. Fool with it and it'll come in very handy. If you don't have it, MFFA has a link to it on Mediafire.
Cool, yeah I just picked up a copy, thanks.   
 
The damage suggestion format seems rather solid. You might also want to include standard damage for things like Dragon Punches and fireballs. Also damage values for maybe a super fireball or a ranbu super and different levels (1-3, for example).
Definitely.

Ok, so here's a template,  if anyone feels like filling this in with your suggestions, or adding to it/changing it, awesome!  Just quote this and go for it.  Ultimately I think this will end up in a 'Character Balancing' section of the tutorial. 
Here's an initial list of character types without getting to complex:  Brawler, Grappler, Technical, Projectile, Aerial, Boss   
Too much to ask?  Anything helps really, so if you just feel like throwing a couple ranges out there without filling out this whole thing, please do!

___________________/ BRAWLER
Character Examples:

Life:       [    ]
Attack:    [    ]
Defense:  [    ]

Suggested Range of Damage Values: 

     Stand     Crouch       Air
QP: [      ]    [      ]    [      ]
MP: [      ]    [      ]    [      ]
SP:  [      ]    [      ]    [      ]
QK: [      ]    [      ]    [      ]
MK: [      ]    [      ]    [      ]
SK:  [      ]    [      ]    [      ]

Throws:     [      ]
Projectiles: [      ]
Charges:    [      ]
Helper Assist: [      ]

                 LVL 1    LVL 2     LVL 3
Projectile:  [      ]    [      ]    [      ]
Charge:     [      ]    [      ]    [      ]
'Combo':    [      ]    [      ]    [      ]
Hyper:       [      ]
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#16  January 04, 2013, 01:16:37 am
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Throws can also have varying damage based on if they can be comboed afterwards or not. For example, if a throw wall bounces, its damage should be lessened a bit since its juggles can be limited depending on position. If a throw just keeps P2 in the air right next to the character (like Gouken), it's best to not give it any damage since any hit is basically guaranteed.
Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#17  January 04, 2013, 01:16:42 am
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If you align correctly in the sff file you do not need to align anything additionally in the .air file.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#18  January 04, 2013, 01:32:07 am
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^ Oh right, all the alignments in the anims would be 0 if the sprites were aligned correctly wouldn't they. 
EDIT:For animations that use the same sprite for different purposes/positions, would you suggest duplicating the sprite or using the alignment in the animation editor?

Also, you know on second thought that template might be a bit much for people, so if anyone wants to suggest well made character examples of the specific types, I can just extrapolate the damage stuff and fill it in myself.  If you feel like filling it in, please do though.  Ultimately a group perspective will be best, so if we can get down to hashing those values out, it should take care of a critical part of the tutorial, being the damage balancing part.
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#19  January 04, 2013, 02:46:00 am
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Well, you technically could write up templates for, say, Capcom VS SNK, Marvel VS Capcom, and Street Fighter III just to name a few. Each character has varying attributes, so it would be great to see those variables laid out in front of our eyes.

There's this site named "Mugen Study Files" that I've been looking at a lot lately. It does a fine job explaining things, but I have these thoughts:

How would one go about coding chaining attacks, like Jab into Strong into Fierce Punch.

How would I code a multi hit attack, like a three string fierce punch??

How would I properly code a Dragon Punch??

The coding for basics looks very straightforward, so practice through doing will certainly help. It's those three things above that interests me the most.
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I'd like to report two robots on the MFG forums: One is EXShadow. The other is Saikoro.
There should be a Saikoro plugin for Photoshop.
Re: Character Polishing Discussion for eventual Tutorial Building
#20  January 04, 2013, 03:51:35 am
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I've kinda wondered why no one has tried to start making a "full game" for things such as POTS style, CVS2, etc. Basically making a new KFM (Ryu?) with no regards to other characters, just built to all work with each other with standard community set vars, special anims, etc.

     Posted: January 04, 2013, 03:57:10 am
^ Oh right, all the alignments in the anims would be 0 if the sprites were aligned correctly wouldn't they. 
EDIT:For animations that use the same sprite for different purposes/positions, would you suggest duplicating the sprite or using the alignment in the animation editor?
No the axis is still different for each character. It's just that once you get the axis you simply set all sprites to that axis and they are aligned. AOKManiac/Insanius is good about supplying the axis for you with his packs in a read me. I am doing that as well starting with my new Dee rips I just released.

As for the animations. Again, if the sprites are ripped like mine, Kong, AOK, etc get them they have a lot of duplicates. Just use the duplicates in the packs as they are. They are in the correct order for the moves and FF3 will link all duplicate sprites for you later anyway.