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How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game? (Read 773 times)

Started by McDucky Potatoes, December 27, 2014, 05:56:10 pm
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McDucky Potatoes

How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#1  December 27, 2014, 05:56:10 pm
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This is a weird question, but how do you make a character have the feel of a fighting game, like having the correct hitpausetime that feels really great when it hits, or just having great control over your character? Whenever I compare my characters to any King Of Fighters, Street Fighter accurate characters or even Kung Fu Man, my characters feel somewhat weird and doesn't play as well. It's something that has been bugging me for quite awhile since most of my characters just feel sloppy and slow.

Cybaster

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#2  December 27, 2014, 07:15:25 pm
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1- Code more characters and make them better and better by improving your coding skills. As you gain more experience, your characters will become better.
2- However, "better" also means you need to first have a good sense of what an accurate SF or KOF is, which means that you first need to be experienced with fighting games in general, in order to see in a few seconds if a character plays good and faithful to a particular game or not.
3- Study the game from which the character comes from. There are various tools (ArtMoney being the most important one) in order to extract accurate data (vels, hitpauses, damage, hitboxes, etc.) from games. Accurate Mugen characters weren't created by just guessing values, but by coding the real values into the character, which were extracted with Artmoney in the first place.

1 and 2 go hand in hand. One can't really go without the other if you want your chars to "feel like fighting game characters". Point 3 comes in when you want to create a really accurate character.

XGargoyle

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#3  December 27, 2014, 07:16:11 pm
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First, you need to understand the game or system you are trying to replicate or at least have a similar look and feel. It is also a good idea to play lots of different FG series to see how they work. If you only play KOF or Smash Bros, even if you are a master at them, you will lack the knowledge of other systems.

Good mugen characters are obtained through a deep research.

- Analyze the combo and cancel system. Analyze the combo ladder and which moves can be cancelled into another and which not.
- Analyze basic parameters such as velocities, gravity and hitpauses. If you can't extract this data from ArtMoney or a similar tool, you will have then to count the ticks directly and do calculations
- animation timings must be also correct, otherwise the character would be unbalanced (like a light punch coming slower than a strong one).
- Analyze if the game has a damage dampening system and how it works.
- Collision boxes must be equal to the game source. Nowadays, almost all fighting games have some way to display them. If for any reason, your game doesn't have a hitbox viewer, then having a solid knowledge on how collision boxes work in other games will allow you to come up with a good standard for your character, this is why it's also important to play as many games as possible.
- Last but not least, experience also helps. All mugen character creators have made horrible characters on their beginnings. Don't be ashamed if your characters are not POTS-level yet. You will achieve it with experience and time. Listen to feedback from other people, there is always someone who will be better than you and his advices will help you to become a better creator. Learn from your mistakes and improve from them.

Making a mugen character is as easy as placing a bunch of sprites together and coding some lines, but if you want to create a good character, then you need to do a lot of research.
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Bastard Mami

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#4  December 27, 2014, 08:09:23 pm
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what's mentioned before + frame data, make sure that the animations feel like a fighting game attack and not just an animated gif; if you are making an original character think how do you want it's attacks to feel then rip off the animation and other data from a character that has a similar move. eventually you will get a good feel so you will have less need for source data, think of it as using a model to make a painting.

Duos

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#5  December 27, 2014, 08:12:01 pm
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The best way to "understand" fighters is simply to play them and get immersed in the culture.  Play them against other people especially, and watch them played at high level.  You're seeking to gain understanding, which is much easier than gaining skill, but definitely leads to it.

Iced

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#6  December 27, 2014, 08:17:25 pm
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A lot of persons ignore what im about to mention but I think there is a lot to be said about Animation timing.  A game's sprite frames are not meant all to be on screen the same lenght of time . A lot of people forget this and the result is that their moves end up looking weightless.
A few basic animation tutorials should give you enough of an idea on how to animate those timings tho.

Alpaca-San

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#7  December 27, 2014, 08:49:37 pm
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Another common thing to avoid is failure to establish the character's gameplay identity. A lot of original/customized characters are just a hodgepodge of moves the creator just wants to program in. Try to think of a major character archetype and build off that.

Vans said, January 15, 2014, 10:25:02 pm
I'm also under the impression that people keep neglecting data from the game, do you guys know how PotS made his original characters? He actually studied every single game he referenced, down to the core. Doing this properly requires understanding how the original system was made, not just winging it.

Bastard Mami

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#8  December 27, 2014, 09:04:00 pm
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Iced said, December 27, 2014, 08:17:25 pm
A lot of persons ignore what im about to mention but I think there is a lot to be said about Animation timing.  A game's sprite frames are not meant all to be on screen the same lenght of time . A lot of people forget this and the result is that their moves end up looking weightless.
A few basic animation tutorials should give you enough of an idea on how to animate those timings tho.
ah yeah, that is what I mean about frame data, thanks for explaining it better.

Black Hatter

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#9  December 27, 2014, 09:06:04 pm
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Iced said, December 27, 2014, 08:17:25 pm
A lot of persons ignore what im about to mention but I think there is a lot to be said about Animation timing.  A game's sprite frames are not meant all to be on screen the same lenght of time . A lot of people forget this and the result is that their moves end up looking weightless.
A few basic animation tutorials should give you enough of an idea on how to animate those timings tho.

Hmm I never knew that. I must check that out when I've got the time.

The 100 Mega Shock!

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#10  December 27, 2014, 10:23:48 pm
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SF3 is a good example since it has so many frames, fast smears between the wind-up and striking parts of an attack and the extreme poses they make right as the attack connects might only be on screen for 1 or 2 frames, while the frames just before and just after a strike can be held for much longer, especially if the character holds the same pose and only their clothes or hair animate due to inetria.
Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 01:29:29 am by The 100 Mega Shock!

Bastard Mami

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#11  December 28, 2014, 02:14:30 am
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My tip is to use 4,4,4, etc for all frames then adjuts/reseach based on that, you can also compare the feeling or real timing to the feeling of having 4,4,4.

Jesuszilla

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#12  December 28, 2014, 07:54:10 am
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^ ONLY when doing it with an original character is this a good idea. I usually use 5, though, especially for stances. I just try to imitate Capcom turbo as closely as possible.

Odb718

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#13  December 28, 2014, 08:24:13 am
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What I'm getting from your question, I dont really see anyone discussing.
The most impressive or powerful tool you have in mugen is hit pause and all of those similar controls and the actual hit types

animtype = Light
guardflag = HA
pausetime = 8,8
ground.type = High
ground.slidetime = 10
ground.hittime = 12
guard.slidetime = 12
guard.hittime = 12

Those are what give a punch it's PUNCH. Yeah, there's a lot more in the hitdef that will help with those things like the hitsparks and everything else. But in my opinion, without the proper hit reaction it's always going to feel like a light punch. You need to line up how your character is attacking P2 and how IRL that character would react. If it's a standing kick to the face or the shins P2 will react different. Their hit reaction times and velocities should be different too.
Once the attack hits solid, then worry about combos.

After that I would say the actual timing of the animation is super important.  You dont want it jumpy and you dont want it too fast.

Sound is a giant factor in how nice a character feels. It's why my Samus feels empty and crappy. Her sound(s) suck. (she's bad in general)
You need the right wind/effects sounds and hit/block sounds to make the attack feel like it's in reality. It gives an attack a lot more depth.
Sounds are important in giving the attack LIFE.
           

Cyanide

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#14  December 28, 2014, 08:25:05 am
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I would recommend darkstalkers over SF3 due to the exaggerated poses and proportions during moves. Gives an excellent feeling of weight. Check out victor specifically for someone doing humanoid attacks but with a lot of emphasis on the impact points.


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Davod Sirloin

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#15  December 30, 2014, 03:09:28 pm
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Bastard Mami said, December 28, 2014, 02:14:30 am
My tip is to use 4,4,4, etc for all frames then adjuts/reseach based on that, you can also compare the feeling or real timing to the feeling of having 4,4,4.

Ah yes, animating on fours.  http://www.michaelspornanimation.com/splog/?p=2626
Now keep in mind that animation is typically done in 24 fps, while games are 60
So when you do fours in mugen, it's about the same as animating on twos in a traditional sense, which is why it works so well.

Other considerations -
Transitional sprites (motion blur etc.) should never last for more than 1-2 frames.  Never put a red box in a transitional frame unless you plan to have 0 hitpause time (which would be wrong).

HITPAUSE MATTERS!  90% of the feel of a game is defined by hitpauses in my opinion.  Not enough, and the game feels like a cocaine fuelled slapfest.  Too much, and it'll feel slow and clunky.  The number of posts about hitpauses so far should be telling.
Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 03:14:41 pm by Davod Sirloin

Just No Point

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#16  December 30, 2014, 03:22:20 pm
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Duos

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#17  December 30, 2014, 08:47:34 pm
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I'm kinda confused here.  When we say feel like a fighting game do we mean as in playing like one opposed to a beat em up/platformer or "feel" like one in terms of aesthetic function?

Bastard Mami

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#18  December 30, 2014, 08:58:40 pm
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feel like a professional one and not like a rubbish copy I guessed.

Cyanide

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#19  December 31, 2014, 12:40:56 am
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I was thinking of the effect you get when its a made up character or platformer being converted where you need to come up with your own hittimes and such. You can get some terrible results if you're not careful on that front.


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Alex Sinigaglia

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#20  December 31, 2014, 12:49:59 am
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Davod Sirloin said, December 30, 2014, 03:09:28 pm
Other considerations -
Transitional sprites (motion blur etc.) should never last for more than 1-2 frames.  Never put a red box in a transitional frame

Why not? Can't we do this like in KFM standing strong punch? There's a changeanim that happens only when it hits and it's a blur/smear frame.
Code: 
[State 210, 3]
type = ChangeAnim
trigger1 = AnimElemTime(5) > 0 && AnimElemTime(6) <= 0
trigger1 = movecontact
ignorehitpause = 1
persistent = 0
value = 210
elem = 6
The AnimElem in which KFM hits is number 5; so the changeanim happens when it connects and the char goes to the following frame.
∞
Last Edit: December 31, 2014, 01:16:51 am by Alex Sinigaglia

Bannana

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#21  December 31, 2014, 12:57:09 am
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Is there an actual standard for hitpauses? I've noticed similarities in completely unrelated games concerning hitpause duration, but at the same time also recognized that the hitpauses are an important part of the pace of a few select games and seem deliberately longer than the others.

im buggin out man
Buriki One

McDucky Potatoes

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#22  December 31, 2014, 01:33:05 am
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Bannana said, December 31, 2014, 12:57:09 am
Is there an actual standard for hitpauses? I've noticed similarities in completely unrelated games concerning hitpause duration, but at the same time also recognized that the hitpauses are an important part of the pace of a few select games and seem deliberately longer than the others.

There's really no standard for hitpauses, but it's just the feeling of greatness when hitting someone, when the hitpause is just right, sometimes you can actually feel the hit happen :/

Duos

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#23  December 31, 2014, 01:35:22 am
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Bannana said, December 31, 2014, 12:57:09 am
Is there an actual standard for hitpauses? I've noticed similarities in completely unrelated games concerning hitpause duration, but at the same time also recognized that the hitpauses are an important part of the pace of a few select games and seem deliberately longer than the others.

If you mean the amount of time in hitstun, absolutely not.  SF has far greater hitstun than Guilty Gear or something similar does.  It depends entirely on the game.  Generally the slower/more traditional the game is the longer the hitstop and hitstun.

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Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#24  December 31, 2014, 02:15:40 am
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yea, like any samurai shodown game, where heavy hits have the hitpauses of a million years

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Duos

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#25  December 31, 2014, 02:40:49 am
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This is also true for blockstun, and it's why Potemkin makes people who aren't ready for him cry because 5P has such tiny blockstun that he can tick throw the hell out of you.

Bannana

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#26  December 31, 2014, 04:22:27 am
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Duos said, December 31, 2014, 01:35:22 am
Bannana said, December 31, 2014, 12:57:09 am
Is there an actual standard for hitpauses? I've noticed similarities in completely unrelated games concerning hitpause duration, but at the same time also recognized that the hitpauses are an important part of the pace of a few select games and seem deliberately longer than the others.

If you mean the amount of time in hitstun, absolutely not.  SF has far greater hitstun than Guilty Gear or something similar does.  It depends entirely on the game.  Generally the slower/more traditional the game is the longer the hitstop and hitstun.
Yeah, I figured that depending on the game it's different, but maybe I should rephrase it to better represent what I originally meant. When looking at games made by different people but in similar style (i.e. doujin games post-guilty gear), I noticed that the hitstuns, while not all exactly the same, seemed to be ballpark around the same in comparison to Street Fighter of KOF. I figured these matched up due to style, but maybe they somewhat based their hitstuns on Guilty Gear or Melty Blood or whatever inspired them.

im buggin out man
Buriki One

Bastard Mami

Re: How does one make a character feel more like a fighting game?
#27  December 31, 2014, 05:18:47 am
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you can't really get away from 12 too much without feeling weird.
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