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Infinite priority, weapons (Read 2115 times)

Started by kaijyuu, February 21, 2010, 05:50:04 am
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kaijyuu

Infinite priority, weapons
#1  February 21, 2010, 05:50:04 am
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I quite often hear about "infinite priority" when reading character feedback. While the priority system kinda makes sense when dealing with kicks, punches, and other forms of body hits, what about wielded weapons? It doesn't make sense to be able to punch a sword for example.

I was just wondering if there's a community standard for this or somesuch. I've never made a character myself, but there's a slight possibility I may someday, and the one bouncing around in my head would wield a weapon. What would I be expected to do concerning priority?

Cyanide

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#2  February 21, 2010, 05:56:50 am
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If you're going for accurate, copy the game. If you're not, don't give it infinite but try to be fair, a clsn2 extending 1/3 to 1/2 of the way along the weapon is fairer than 90pixels of unhittable death.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

GT

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#3  February 21, 2010, 05:57:22 am
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kaijyuu said, February 21, 2010, 05:50:04 am
I quite often hear about "infinite priority" when reading character feedback. While the priority system kinda makes sense when dealing with kicks, punches, and other forms of body hits, what about wielded weapons? It doesn't make sense to be able to punch a sword for example.

Ok, but if you can't punch the weapon then you would really have no means to defend against it. I could spam my weapon over and over and every time you try to counter you get hit.
Prince Jango said, October 07, 2011, 11:45:18 pm
Yeah Titiln, in fact, You Made Him

kaijyuu

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#4  February 21, 2010, 05:59:24 am
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Quote
If you're going for accurate, copy the game.
Would be original.



So, some sort of halfway thing would be best? Ideally some sort of parry would occur I guess, but I'm not sure that's feasible.

MirageAtoli

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#5  February 21, 2010, 11:31:07 am
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What makes things even more confusing is when you should be able to punch the weapon. Robot vs sword, etc;
Titiln said, December 31, 2007, 10:46:10 pm
i think we should call it an "engine" so we don't look like total idiots because otherwise we'd be arguing about a "game" and that would be somehow "dumber" than arguing about an "engine" on the "internet" for countless hours

Beatrice said, March 01, 2010, 06:55:03 pm
Iced said:
I for one, do not enjoy round corners!  :bigcry:
But they hurt much less when we accidentally hit them!  :S

DKDC

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#6  February 21, 2010, 01:03:57 pm
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kaijyuu said, February 21, 2010, 05:50:04 am
I was just wondering if there's a community standard for this or somesuch
Community standards <=> game standards. Look at various games of that sort, see what they do, compare them together, find a middle-ground.
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The Simplistic Fubini

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#7  February 21, 2010, 03:50:41 pm
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kaijyuu

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#8  February 22, 2010, 05:58:06 am
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Alright, thanks for the advice everyone :) I'll keep it in mind.

PotS

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#9  February 23, 2010, 09:11:59 am
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I think the community standard is that there is no standard, hehe. Everyone uses a different combination of following Elecbyte, commercial games or bogus conventions.
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Loona

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#10  February 23, 2010, 11:35:02 am
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You can always make the weapon attack slow enough to come out that something like a weak/fast kick that hits far enough has a good chance of interrupting it before the actual attacking frames with clsn1 come out.

SunDownBrown

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#11  February 23, 2010, 11:48:01 am
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What would be the best decision for this?...

kakkoii superhero

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#12  February 24, 2010, 03:38:04 pm
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If later I make that lady on my avatar, I will not make clsn2 on the stick, because it will look ridiculous, but I will make the attack involving the stick slower and has late clsn1 so a jab can stop it eventhough it is shorter in range, so in the end it will be only effective as followup move or a counter not as a starter (that's my opinion)

kaijyuu

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#13  February 25, 2010, 05:44:59 am
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Loona said, February 23, 2010, 11:35:02 am
You can always make the weapon attack slow enough to come out that something like a weak/fast kick that hits far enough has a good chance of interrupting it before the actual attacking frames with clsn1 come out.
That's not always an option, because some characters use their weapon for EVERY attack. Mine, if I ever get around to it, would have at most 1 body hit.

I'll probably just put clsn2's over the weapon and call it good. Kinda ridiculous but oh well.


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If later I make that lady on my avatar,
Totally offtopic, but did she have her nipples surgically removed? :P There's no way they'd be low enough to be covered by the leather bra thing.
Last Edit: February 25, 2010, 06:01:15 am by kaijyuu

Bastard Mami

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#14  February 26, 2010, 12:36:25 am
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she is like morrigan.

Koop

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#15  February 26, 2010, 10:31:45 am
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Have the clsn2 reach the grip of the weapon for specials (left) and have it extend a bit further for normal moves (right)
PotS said, May 13, 2009, 11:32:35 pm
Is a mess. :gonk: Needs sexy new coding to go with sexy sprites.

Circuitous

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#16  February 28, 2010, 02:13:58 am
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Shouldn't hitbox vs. hitbox produce a clash or trade of some sort? It seems to do so in every fighting game I've ever played. Discard realism for gameplay wherever possible.

Cyanide

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#17  February 28, 2010, 02:37:12 am
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That's weapon vs weapon and in current mugen terms, not really replicatable unless in a full game as nothing defines an attack as physical vs sharp.

If someone was to hit the blue with their red on the same frame as the red hitbox, yes you get a clash. But that's physical vs physical.

Sharp vs sharp... needs full game so you can seperate how the weapons work, or spawn helpers with special features that detect other helpers and give you the info needed to actually clash.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Circuitous

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#18  February 28, 2010, 02:44:02 am
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Cyanide said, February 28, 2010, 02:37:12 am
That's weapon vs weapon and in current mugen terms, not really replicatable unless in a full game as nothing defines an attack as physical vs sharp.

Didn't know there was even a difference. In GG you can clash, for example, Axl's kusari-gama (which reaches most of the screen) with pretty much anything.

Cyanide said, February 28, 2010, 02:37:12 am
If someone was to hit the blue with their red on the same frame as the red hitbox, yes you get a clash. But that's physical vs physical.

Sharp vs sharp... needs full game so you can seperate how the weapons work, or spawn helpers with special features that detect other helpers and give you the info needed to actually clash.

Coming in as an outsider, with no concept of MUGEN's mechanics, that seems really, really dumb. Does MUGEN differentiate between a physical hit and a weapon hit (physical vs. sharp in your terms) or are you just using those for reference?

kakkoii superhero

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#19  February 28, 2010, 04:29:06 am
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I think only red box on the blade is OK, as long as you don't insert that red box on every frame of the said attack animation.

Cyanide

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#20  February 28, 2010, 04:31:08 am
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I'm inventing it. Mugen does not differentiate between the 2 unless you code it in. In realistic terms, metal vs flesh = metal wins. Hence the talk of infinite priority. Your weapon cannot be hit AND cause damage to you. Your arm can be hit and cause damage. Basically the weapon comes out on top unless you give it clsns, or make it simple to counter.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Seravy

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#21  March 11, 2010, 09:45:27 am
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I say it greatly depends on the kind of game and characters.
If it is a full game, then
-Does all of your characters have a weapon, or a long reaching clsn1 attack?
-Maybe they can fire projectiles as well?
-Which is more in focus, close range combat, or long rage?

I think infinity priority is better because it is more realistic, but it wont' play well unless the characters mainly fight at long range, or the character with a weapon has other, significant disadvantages, like being slower. It also depends on the weapon size. A spear half the screen long is very overpowered without clsn2 boxes on it (actually it is even with them), but a dagger sized weapon is not a problem.
Quote
spawn helpers with special features that detect other helpers and give you the info needed to actually clash.
Actually there is no way in current mugen to detect if your hit was landed on a player or a helper, in case of a hitoverride being active, and helpers always have hitoverride, otherwise they cause cloning bugs. Using a different hitdef attribute might be better, like NA=weaponless attack and SA=weapon attack), that can be detected by using a different hitoverride for the two.

Cyanide

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#22  March 11, 2010, 09:55:39 am
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In the case of infinite priority that's not really important

You set up helpers immune to everything but certain types of hit and they can send the info back to the parent. As it's helpers hitting helpers, and the parent's aren't even involved in the contact you don't need to worry about what you're hitting as the parents are using NA stuff. I've done this, and it works, but it's a full game solution.

Also, infinite priority may be more realistic but there are still correct places to do it. You shouldn't apply it to a sword "because" but actually think how fair the move will be with it, if it looks like there's too much power there, increase the clsn2 even if it makes it less realistic it evens the game up where it should be.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

kakkoii superhero

Re: Infinite priority, weapons
#23  March 11, 2010, 11:57:04 am
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eventhough it is a sword, doesn't mean that all attacks should be poking type, can be more creative with attacks eventhough poking is the most ideal in the reach but to avoid the over advantage in its reach, then it should also have slashing movements which is not that superior in its reach compared to barehanded characters, or even using the hilt to hit the opponent as well
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