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Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama (Read 1366 times)

Started by Person Man, May 02, 2012, 01:35:43 am
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Person Man

Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#1  May 02, 2012, 01:35:43 am
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http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/5654-One-Day-in-November

Halo 4 is releasing on November 6, which is the date of American presidential elections.  Apparently, there is a certain group of people who think that this is not a coincidence.  They're claiming that this is an intentional ploy by Microsoft to drive youth voters away from the polls, allowing Mitt Romney to claim victory over President Obama.

Now, this is all remarkably stupid, but part of me really wants this to become a huge deal because it would be hilarious to watch people make a big stink about it.

Girard

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#2  May 02, 2012, 01:40:09 am
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Wow people really think this i thought it was just a joke on NeoGaf.

Lith

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#3  May 02, 2012, 01:40:40 am
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It's the perfect plan...

OZ

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#4  May 02, 2012, 04:06:51 am
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ha

pretty good plan
touche
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Davod Sirloin

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#5  May 02, 2012, 04:26:05 am
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Jokes on them, polls open before the store does.

inb4 midnight release

The Simplistic Fubini

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#6  May 02, 2012, 04:29:28 am
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Dunno about you, but I personally think that having Halo-fanboy-free-elections can only do good to your nation.

OZ

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#7  May 02, 2012, 04:51:18 am
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we should have an all day special at k&w cafeteria 11/6/12

just to even the playing field
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Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#8  May 02, 2012, 04:03:17 pm
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That's why voting here is mandatory. :P

Valodim

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#9  May 02, 2012, 04:46:47 pm
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Lasombra Demon said, May 02, 2012, 04:03:17 pm
That's why voting here is mandatory. :P

You know, I have always been a proponent of providing financial stimuli for voting. Like, give everyone who goes voting 20€.

The young and the poor will be all over it, and everyone else will go voting because they definitely don't want to be ruled by poor or, worse, young people.

Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#10  May 02, 2012, 07:06:32 pm
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That'd be quite an interesting idea. Still, $$$ ppl could offer 25 so you DON'T go to vote.

Titiln

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#11  May 02, 2012, 07:25:41 pm
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how would they know you didn't vote

sounds like a really stupid idea!!!!!!!

Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#12  May 02, 2012, 07:30:31 pm
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From the top of my head: you ask them to leave their IDs the day before, and return it to them the day after.

There have been many, many different forms of fraud and electoral-tampering throughout history.

The Simplistic Fubini

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#13  May 02, 2012, 08:59:31 pm
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Bastard Mami

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#14  May 02, 2012, 10:08:53 pm
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Not voting here is a crime.

Mgbenz

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#15  May 02, 2012, 10:12:08 pm
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Many countries do have a mandatory voting law.

Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#16  May 02, 2012, 10:17:55 pm
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The Simplistic Fubini

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#17  May 02, 2012, 10:19:04 pm
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Forcing people to vote is almost as bad as not letting them vote. People that do not care enough to go ballot boxes out of their own will do not care enough to actually listen to the different political parties and make an informed choice. Why would you want people like that voting in the first place?

Jmorphman

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#18  May 02, 2012, 10:20:39 pm
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Just as one has options when voting, one should have the option of not voting altogether.

Seadragon77

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#19  May 02, 2012, 10:22:16 pm
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That's a hell of a coincidence if you ask me...

But, just for the hell of it, let's say that Obama does lose the election. Does Romney thank Master Chief for helping him out or what?

Titiln

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#20  May 02, 2012, 10:22:51 pm
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Tanks a lot said, May 02, 2012, 10:19:04 pm
Forcing people to vote is almost as bad as not letting them vote. People that do not care enough to go ballot boxes out of their own will do not care enough to actually listen to the different political parties and make an informed choice. Why would you want people like that voting in the first place?
epic thissery

Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#21  May 02, 2012, 10:30:58 pm
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Because ideally, forcing people to vote will dissuade the more powerful groups from pulling coercitive stuff, specially against the more vulnerable portions of the population.

It still doesn't work on its own (I agree that informing people is key) but it's better than nothing.

Some day, people will not vote for individuals or political parties, but for major specific proposals on each major issue. I think that's what we need.

chrono.st

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#22  May 03, 2012, 12:30:38 am
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Halo isn't ready for a black president.

The Simplistic Fubini

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#23  May 03, 2012, 02:07:29 am
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Lasombra Demon said, May 02, 2012, 10:30:58 pm
Because ideally, forcing people to vote will dissuade the more powerful groups from pulling coercitive stuff, specially against the more vulnerable portions of the population.

If a group or person has the power to intimidate or manipulate enough people to make a notorious statistical effect on the elections, he might as well use said power to rig them after the voting phase. That, or he might already have more power than the political office he wants to take, in which case not getting it wouldn't stop him from pushing his agenda.

As you see mandatory voting protects the integrity of your democracy as much as an umbrella protects you from a hurricane.

Bastard Mami

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#24  May 03, 2012, 04:02:08 am
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Tanks a lot said, May 03, 2012, 02:07:29 am
If a group or person has the power to intimidate or manipulate enough people to make a notorious statistical effect on the elections, he might as well use said power to rig them after the voting phase. That, or he might already have more power than the political office he wants to take, in which case not getting it wouldn't stop him from pushing his agenda.

But what if you ahve more than one group ?


Lasombra Demon said, May 02, 2012, 10:30:58 pm
Some day, people will not vote for individuals or political parties, but for major specific proposals on each major issue. I think that's what we need.

Already done is some european countries.

Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#25  May 03, 2012, 04:19:41 am
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Tanks a lot said, May 03, 2012, 02:07:29 am
As you see mandatory voting protects the integrity of your democracy as much as an umbrella protects you from a hurricane.
Probably. Still, it IS another layer of protection, albeit a weak one, to safeguard democracy.

I think it's worth it.

Titiln

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#26  May 03, 2012, 04:21:30 am
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Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#27  May 03, 2012, 04:27:52 am
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Most of the times, referendums are done to address some particular issue.

What I'm saying is to have a group of people elected to carry out a particular agenda during a given term (4 years?)- but that instead of choosing the people, you vote for the proposals themselves.

Bastard Mami

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#28  May 03, 2012, 04:28:39 pm
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what you said does not make sense.


That also has been done in mexico but it's so rare it does not really count.

Rajaa

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#29  May 03, 2012, 10:02:07 pm
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Lasombra Demon said, May 03, 2012, 04:27:52 am
What I'm saying is to have a group of people elected to carry out a particular agenda during a given term (4 years?)- but that instead of choosing the people, you vote for the proposals themselves.
Elect people, but wait, don't elect people, vote on proposals instead?

Wait, so who will carry out the proposals?

I'm trying to understand this. Instead of voting for people, we vote for their proposals? Or we vote for preset proposals by people who are elected but not elected?

We vote for proposals that are proposed by people who aren't elected, but then we elect but don't elect people to carry out the proposals before the proposals are made?

Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#30  May 03, 2012, 10:20:49 pm
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Yeah, I wasn't quite clear on that. ;P

What I'm saying is that different groups of people tend to make different proposals for the same issue. Instead of voting for the group of people, you vote for the proposal itself. An attempt to make it much, much less person-focused and more idea-focused.

Needs more polish, I know.

Bastard Mami

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#31  May 03, 2012, 10:52:39 pm
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yeah, it's still redundant.

FeckFace

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#32  May 04, 2012, 04:48:25 am
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I think Lasombra's trying to say instead of voting for candidates just for the candidates themselves,
(they were funny on TV, they look hot, they remind me of my dad, etc.)
the people should vote for candidates based on what idea they stand behind.

If, say, legalization of CP or banning gay marriage is supported by some politicians, you avoid voting for those people based on what they're supporting.
But if national budget revision or letting whales poop to consume CO[size=5pt]2[/size] is supported by other politicians, you vote for them based on what they're supporting.

It's like searching for a picture or 2 using plenty of tags on the search bar. You pick the tags, you take out the excess that doesn't include said tags, then you pick what you want in a more select batch

Rajaa

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#33  May 04, 2012, 08:52:08 am
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That's. Already. How. Elections. Work.

OZ

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#34  May 04, 2012, 09:48:48 am
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lobbyists will ruin it either way
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Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#35  May 04, 2012, 02:00:51 pm
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Rajaa said, May 04, 2012, 08:52:08 am
That's. Already. How. Elections. Work.
Yeah, right. That's why the most debated issues where if Obama is Kenyan or Romney is a Mormon. ::)

Personalism is too much of a problem because people end following based on charisma rather than ideas, and the same person can easily have different politically-aligned ideas on different topics. Peronism (the best example of worshiping the person over debating the basic principles) over here has been VERY harmful, institution-wise.

Rajaa

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#36  May 04, 2012, 02:12:44 pm
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That's not the most debated issue. It's just something that has come up and people debated.

We DO vote on candidates because of their ideas, but it's stupid and impractical to think that no other factors matter. People are electing people to represent themselves. If someone doesn't resemble the people in their values or backgrounds, then they aren't an accurate representation of the people and therefore shouldn't represent the people.

What you're trying to say is that we should vote on people's ideas, and that's already done, you're not really bring anything new to the table.

Why would I want a Kenyan representing me if I'm an American? Why do I want someone who looks like shit to represent me? if they can't clean up and not be presentable, then why should I believe that they could clean up my country and present our ideas and values throughout the world and within the country itself?

That doesn't make sense. Ideas aren't the only things that matters. The people who are giving the ideas do matter. If I am a mass murderer who went to trial, and was acquitted due to some bad procedures, but it is still factual that the I am a mass murder, do you want me to be your president based only on my ideas?

Everyone is complex and has different ideas about one thing that may oppose another one of their ideas about something else. What the fuck is voting on ideas going to do? We'll have a bunch of ideas floating around and nobody around to implement them.

And anyway, we already vote on people for their ideas, like I said. You're not bringing anything new to the table.
Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 02:16:36 pm by Rajaa

FeckFace

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#37  May 04, 2012, 02:18:04 pm
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Okay then, maybe it IS the proposals that are to be voted for. In that case,  we need to give politicians freedom to support the proposals that they are for. But since a lot of them would support an awful idea, we need to vote and debate which idea is more important and sound, so that the more beneficial and necessary proposals win over.

Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#38  May 04, 2012, 02:24:25 pm
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Feck is getting my point.

Rajaa said, May 04, 2012, 02:12:44 pm
That doesn't make sense. Ideas aren't the only things that matters. The people who are giving the ideas do matter. If I am a mass murderer who went to trial, and was acquitted due to some bad procedures, but it is still factual that the I am a mass murder, do you want me to be your president based only on my ideas?
And when did I talk about presidency? I'm talking about removing power from the executive branch and protagonism of individuals in favor of developing more independently-elected institutions and groups.

Rajaa said, May 04, 2012, 02:12:44 pm
And anyway, we already vote on people for their ideas, like I said. You're not bringing anything new to the table.
I disagree with the bold part. Ask the population the true reasoning behind voting, and you'll probably find one of the biggest flaws in our democracies.

Also, in each quoted part, you are contradicting yourself.

I just think that all our electoral system so far has been too person-focused (or too party-focused), and it should try to be more idea-focused. How'd you try to implement this?

Rajaa

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#39  May 04, 2012, 02:31:40 pm
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FeckFace said, May 04, 2012, 02:18:04 pm
Okay then, maybe it IS the proposals that are to be voted for. In that case,  we need to give politicians freedom to support the proposals that they are for. But since a lot of them would support an awful idea, we need to vote and debate which idea is more important and sound, so that the more beneficial and necessary proposals win over.
Again. That's already done. That idea that we should vote on ideas is just ridiculous to say. It's already done. We already vote on ideas. We don't have tyrants or kings. If we didn't vote on ideas then we wouldn't have debates about what people would do once they are elected for their positions.

Candidate tries to be too conservative and limit rights for gay people. Candidate is stupid and quits his campaign because he realizes he is stupid. Rick Santorum.

Candidate promises change in healthcare systems, welfare systems. Candidate rids of the stupid gay laws in the military. Candidate is Commander and Chief when major terrorist leader is killed. Barrack Obama.

In a progressively politically correct society, Obama naturally wins because he represents the people more accurately. His endeavors represent his ideas. His campaign strategy represents his ideas.

Ridding governmental campaigns of complete humanity and only focusing on the ideas is not a good idea because the people behind the idea matter.

kakkoii superhero

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#40  May 04, 2012, 02:38:52 pm
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so in my country we have been through several types of elections

- to vote for the party who will then decide within themselves to choose a president as the executive leader
- to choose for party with their proposed president candidate, and the 1st winner would be president, and 2nd would be vice
- to vote party who will lead the parliament and to vote a pair to be the president and his vice (which is either redundant or contradictory)  because the pair from the winning party is mostly win also, otherwise it would be nearly impossible to run a country when the parliament and the presidency are against each other programs. 

I never cast my vote though because it is a right and not a compulsory

Rajaa

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#41  May 04, 2012, 02:39:29 pm
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Lasombra Demon said, May 04, 2012, 02:24:25 pm
Feck is getting my point.
Your point still doesn't make any sense. We get your point now.

Lasombra Demon said, May 04, 2012, 02:24:25 pm
And when did I talk about presidency? I'm talking about removing power from the executive branch and protagonism of individuals in favor of developing more independently-elected institutions and groups.
Presidents are elected. It doesn't matter WHO you were talking about. You were talking about elections and being too focused on the persons of the elections. Where else do you get that besides presidential elections? Stop trying to twist things with semantics and technicalities.

Lasombra Demon said, May 04, 2012, 02:24:25 pm
I disagree with the bold part. Ask the population the true reasoning behind voting, and you'll probably find one of the biggest flaws in our democracies.
You can disagree with facts, that just makes you wrong. And ask what population? What are you talking about? You're just spitting stuff now. I am not talking to the"population," I'm talking to Lasombra.

Lasombra Demon said, May 04, 2012, 02:24:25 pm
Also, in each quoted part, you are contradicting yourself.
No. I didn't. One part of my post was to show that in ADDITIONn to ideas, the PERSON matters, and another part of my post says we already vote for people for their ideas. That has been the contention of all of my posts thus far. I did not contradict myself.

Lasombra Demon said, May 04, 2012, 02:24:25 pm
I just think that all our electoral system so far has been too person-focused (or too party-focused), and it should try to be more idea-focused.
Read above.

Lasombra Demon said, May 04, 2012, 02:24:25 pm
How'd you try to implement this?
I didn't create my country or democracy. I can't answer this question. It probably had something to do with allowing people to vote for the candidates with the best ideas, though. I'm not sure.

Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#42  May 04, 2012, 02:45:12 pm
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Thanks for proving that you have no idea of alternate electoral methods other than presidential elections. :P

Rajaa

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#43  May 04, 2012, 02:47:27 pm
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Thanks for proving that you have no idea how to be coherent and post things that make sense. :P

FeckFace

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#44  May 04, 2012, 03:21:45 pm
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@Rajaa

Alright, how about this? The politicians that are supposed to uphold proposals? They are not voted on here.

They have the freedom to invest their time, money, and energy into supporting  said proposals.
If we're voting on ideas that are to be realized, we're taking the voting spotlight Away from the  candidates.

They, along with the people, can do all they want to  fulfill the bills and acts to come.

But, before ANY of that can happen, we need to bring about a weighing factor on the ideas and proposals
The unit here is votes.
We vote solely for proposals here, so we vote for the more beneficial and necessary ones, as I mentioned before.
And seeing as how this is a progressive, politically correct era we're living in, that won't me much of a problem now will it?

THAT'S what I was trying to explain when attempting to understand Lasombra's suggestion, but I realize I need to be severely elaborate on my part.

And then you say "Again. We. Have. That."

kakkoii superhero

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#45  May 04, 2012, 03:49:02 pm
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but how to make people believe whatever guy that would be appointed to execute this proposal is qualified morally or technically to his job?

if he didn't personally support said proposal unlike the campaigning candidates who continuously present their proposal to the public to gain their support during their campaign?

Valodim

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#46  May 04, 2012, 04:12:30 pm
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Quote
I never cast my vote though because it is a right and not a compulsory

Some would say it's a duty. I for one regularly snap at people who are all "meh, elections, I don't care really", or argue that they are not happy about the system so they boycott it.

At least in Germany it takes about 30 minutes casting a vote, including the walk to the voting place (good word for this?), or you can even do it by mail, every couple of years. It's really not that much to ask - being allowed to vote is a privilege, and people who don't appreciate that are just spoiled brats.

You don't wanna vote because there is no party you agree with? Fine, go and cast an invalid vote. But as soon as there is any degree of laziness involved in the decision not to vote (and there always is), it's not okay in my book. :_blank:

Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#47  May 04, 2012, 04:19:32 pm
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Feckface is getting my point completely.

kakkoii superhero said, May 04, 2012, 03:49:02 pm
but how to make people believe whatever guy that would be appointed to execute this proposal is qualified morally or technically to his job?

if he didn't personally support said proposal unlike the campaigning candidates who continuously present their proposal to the public to gain their support during their campaign?
First of all, I'd take the whole 'this guy / that guy' of the equation. Single people would lead to the issues I'm trying to remove. We're talking about teams of nonpartisan experts that are supposed to carry out the will of the people in one very specific issue.

Most experts know HOW to do stuff in their area, just lack enough political backing / raw power. They'd be more technicians than politicians, and of course their work would have to be closely followed and overseen by whatever community of experts they are in.

Megh, just thinking out loud. ;P

Jmorphman

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#48  May 04, 2012, 04:32:55 pm
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Bastard Mami

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#49  May 04, 2012, 04:49:21 pm
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Lasombra Demon said, May 04, 2012, 04:19:32 pm
Feckface is getting my point completely.

kakkoii superhero said, May 04, 2012, 03:49:02 pm
but how to make people believe whatever guy that would be appointed to execute this proposal is qualified morally or technically to his job?

if he didn't personally support said proposal unlike the campaigning candidates who continuously present their proposal to the public to gain their support during their campaign?
First of all, I'd take the whole 'this guy / that guy' of the equation. Single people would lead to the issues I'm trying to remove. We're talking about teams of nonpartisan experts that are supposed to carry out the will of the people in one very specific issue.

Most experts know HOW to do stuff in their area, just lack enough political backing / raw power. They'd be more technicians than politicians, and of course their work would have to be closely followed and overseen by whatever community of experts they are in.

Megh, just thinking out loud. ;P

But that's already done, do you even know what are you talking about  ? we are not in the middle ages anymore.
Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 04:57:22 pm by [E]

DKDC

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#50  May 04, 2012, 04:58:49 pm
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[E] said, May 04, 2012, 04:49:21 pm
we are not in the middle ages anymore.
Speak for yourself, you know where he lives !

That said, there are parties and programs and that's what elections are (supposedly) about, but taking the example of the French elections happening right now, it's 100% about the person. Each side hates the *person* representing the opposing side, with little regard for the concepts they want to apply according to their respective program. And many (all the undecided, angry, not voting etc. people, but there's more of them than people who politically place themselves with either party) think those programs are just ideas that the specific candidate is unable to make work properly anyway, even if they liked the man himself. So there's that.
But in theory, yeah, it's the program, and the candidate is only the one applying the ideas in it. But you know the difference between theory and practice. In theory, there's none.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.
Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 05:03:41 pm by Carpe Diem

Bastard Mami

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#51  May 04, 2012, 05:02:27 pm
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even kings had ministers(?) who were more knowledgeable about specific areas, so arthur had her ministry of crusades, so even if arthur was an idiot regarding crusades, her minister of crusades was a person with a college degree on crusades and several years of experience  killing infidels.

DKDC

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#52  May 04, 2012, 05:04:55 pm
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That would be relevant if we could know the full, detailed list of who the candidate would pick for ministers, before the elections :P
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Bastard Mami

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#53  May 04, 2012, 05:11:39 pm
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you don't ?

even in the shithole of a country i live in we do.

FeckFace

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#54  May 04, 2012, 05:42:23 pm
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@[E] in response to LD

Where? Congress? Honestly, LD's argument sounds rather fresh to me, so I would like to know where it's been done.

kakkoii superhero

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#55  May 04, 2012, 05:45:19 pm
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Lasombra Demon said, May 04, 2012, 04:19:32 pm
Feckface is getting my point completely.

kakkoii superhero said, May 04, 2012, 03:49:02 pm
but how to make people believe whatever guy that would be appointed to execute this proposal is qualified morally or technically to his job?

if he didn't personally support said proposal unlike the campaigning candidates who continuously present their proposal to the public to gain their support during their campaign?
First of all, I'd take the whole 'this guy / that guy' of the equation. Single people would lead to the issues I'm trying to remove. We're talking about teams of nonpartisan experts that are supposed to carry out the will of the people in one very specific issue.

Most experts know HOW to do stuff in their area, just lack enough political backing / raw power. They'd be more technicians than politicians, and of course their work would have to be closely followed and overseen by whatever community of experts they are in.

Megh, just thinking out loud. ;P

there are different commissions in the parliament that work in different specific subjects, making laws for specific purposes, I guess it is done by people who knows what they are talking about/ making law about.

then the elected president would make a team of ministers for different tasks, and these ministers (who are politician with some knowledge in their technical field) will have staff that are expert in their fields without being involved in politics themselves to do micro management.

do you seriously expect a single person who is able to do everything by himself?

Bastard Mami

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#56  May 04, 2012, 05:49:23 pm
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FeckFace said, May 04, 2012, 05:42:23 pm
@[E] in response to LD

Where? Congress? Honestly, LD's argument sounds rather fresh to me, so I would like to know where it's been done.
what navetsea just typed.

DKDC

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#57  May 04, 2012, 05:51:25 pm
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[E] said, May 04, 2012, 05:11:39 pm
you don't ?

even in the shithole of a country i live in we do.
Well, there's a list of staff, but it's not specifically said who would be what. Especially considering it can change easily, like a minister of interior (the cops) jumping to economy. We can't know the how good each person is anyway, we only see the results, and we have to trust the president at the moment he appoints so and so to such and such minister (and we can't tell him "no, don't do that, we don't trust that guy"). So in theory it's still Lasombra's description, but not in practice, it's not really doable. The ministers are appointed to do a specific job, which may be more or less detailed during the campaign, but we can't tell if they'll do it well, or if they won't just change direction and do something else entirely. They don't have a contract with us on what was said by the candidate in his campaign, even though if the president doesn't do what he said in the campaign, he does usually take flak for it.

Also, closer to Lasombra's description, the candidate has one program, and then he gets elected or not ; his program may contain a bunch of stuff we want, and some other stuff we don't, and he'll still get elected, we don't get to chose "do this thing you said, but don't do that other thing you said" at the moment of the election.
So it boils down to how well the candidates listen to the voters before and during the campaign... And how well does that work ?
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Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 05:57:27 pm by Carpe Diem

kakkoii superhero

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#58  May 04, 2012, 06:01:58 pm
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ministers report their projects to the president, then president has to answer to the parliament annually about decisions he has made, the benefits, the reason,etc.
he with the help of his ministers also make proposal of programs and budget for the next year, that has to be approved by the parliament, parliament is People's representatives.

so unless your president is a tyrant, he is nothing more than a manager who answer to the board of share holders, can be replaced when he fails so miserably in his duty.

DKDC

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#59  May 04, 2012, 07:11:12 pm
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You're talking after the elections. Beside, the parliament is pretty much the same thing, they don't really always do what the people want, even if it's supposed to be the people's representatives. And it's also still the parliament (a smaller group of people) and not actually the entirety of the people. It doesn't really matter if one person answers to another small group of persons. A "manager who answers to the board of share holders" is still not good enough, it should be "answers to the entire company, including the small workers" (as far as this hypothetical system is concerned, I mean)
As for replacing a president that does shit - you wait for the next round of elections, and if there's still no one who would actually do better at a same program (approved by the people) or even have a program that the people wants, you're still screwed. Those who decide what to do are still not the entire people.
Of course, that would be hell to set up such a system for every single proposal, though. Just talking hypothetically from Lasombra's posts.
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Bastard Mami

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#60  May 04, 2012, 07:25:57 pm
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The problem with that system is that it is not efficient at all in practice, we come to a point where we only have politics and not a single person doing any work.

DKDC

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#61  May 04, 2012, 07:26:42 pm
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Bureaucracy, so.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#62  May 04, 2012, 08:56:28 pm
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Of course I don't think the president does everything. --;

What I'm saying is that the president's expert group is a) arbitrarily picked and b) follow his commands.

Taking out the party/the president's individual issues out of the way can lead to people actually discussing and voting for the important issues and courses of action themselves, instead of focusing on wether their future president has gone bald or not.

I'm talking of voting by choosing one specific course of action among a group of those; "today, when we voted on health care plan, I supported the Second Proposal, which is to offer everyone non-mandatory coverage and get the money from spending less in the Defense department. The first one (no universal healthcare) just seemed unfair, and the third one was mandatory, which I don't like".

Rajaa

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#63  May 04, 2012, 09:07:34 pm
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The president isn't arbitrarily picked, though (not in the sense you're using it), the president is elected based on many things, mostly because of his/her ideas and the ideas he/she signifies. So, therefore, if the president is chosen by the people based on his/her ideas and the people that the president appoint do what the president wants, then there's no problem because people already elected the president because of what he/she wants to do and those appointed individuals are simply doing what the president wants.

You're over exaggerating small things like baldness. Sure, there may be media coverage of sorts about presidents' appearances, but there are other things that are involved. Like ideas.

Your idea still makes no sense and is still impractical.

And what your example quote is really ridiculous as well. That's exactly what happens! The president has a load of options to choose from when he proposes policies, then congress comes in and those congress members are elected.

You're not saying many thing snew, and the new things that you are saying don't make any sense, dude.

DKDC

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#64  May 04, 2012, 09:09:56 pm
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@LD :
one major problem with that is that if it's just the people voting, for example there will be nobody to track finances and say "you voted that, but sorry, it's financially impossible" and those kinds of things. No coordination, either, if each issue is voted separately (it would screw up systems that affect very different ministers but fit together in a single objective).
Quote
Sure, there may be media coverage of sorts about presidents' appearances, but there are other things that are involved. Like ideas.
You'd be surprised.
If I struggled to the end of my determination, to the end of my way of life with my followers, if the result is ruin, then this ruin is inevitable. Grieve. Shed tears. But you cannot regret.

Lasombra Demon

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#65  May 04, 2012, 09:20:18 pm
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Yeah, I agree. Then again, on proposals, they could be elaborated and mutually evaluated by different groups of experts in the first place, so they are guaranteed to be viable.

Raj:
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The Simplistic Fubini

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#66  May 04, 2012, 09:24:58 pm
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Because Palin and Bush represent the ideas of crazy conservatives that are a bit less than half of the active voters in the United States.

Rajaa

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#67  May 04, 2012, 09:42:11 pm
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Lasombra Demon said, May 04, 2012, 09:20:18 pm
Raj:
elect people on ideas alone. Good for you. ;P
Dude, are you able to understand what I typed? Because it is pretty clear that I did not say that people ONLY elect politicians for their ideas.

Bastard Mami

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#68  May 04, 2012, 11:45:46 pm
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NO rajaa, it's either black ro whtie, you can't go gray.

kakkoii superhero

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#69  May 05, 2012, 01:46:08 am
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we need a single person to be held responsible, to take blame when everything is wrong, that is the point of having a president, he has to hear many suggestions coming from experts surrounding him from many aspects, and make a balanced decision, when he did wrong, he is the one responsible.

a mere committee can't be held responsible because they are a collective mind, and expert means they only know very well a specific part of their interest. somebody can be the brightest nuclear engineer but he can also totally useless in cooking, and driving a car.

a pure expert and practitioners won't understand about implication of their decision to other fields outside of their expertise.  or they might be too blunt and causing public hysteria, economic to turn crazy with their statements.

Valodim

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#70  May 05, 2012, 03:39:22 am
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kakkoii superhero said, May 05, 2012, 01:46:08 am
we need a single person to be held responsible, to take blame when everything is wrong, that is the point of having a president, he has to hear many suggestions coming from experts surrounding him from many aspects, and make a balanced decision, when he did wrong, he is the one responsible.

How does knowing who's responsible help anyone? Bush pulled a lot of crap, everyone knows he was at fault with a lot of things, but that knowledge wasn't worth shit when he was still president (not counting the plethora of sophisticated internet humor on the subject), and has become completely irrelevant the moment he left office. Whatever the answer to all political problems is, "we need someone to blame" is not it.

This also (around a few corners) leads to the two party system, and I say fuck the two party system. :ninja:

I am pretty happy with our system at the moment and the enormous success of the German Pirate Party. After the party was founded merely 6 years ago, we gained a lot of momentum over the last three years and got up to 13% in weekly polls of the last few weeks - and those numbers directly translate to seats and thus influence in the Bundestag. A lot of people I know (as in, 10+) are actually quite involved in local or national politics now, all of them in their mid 20s. It's not perfect, but it sure is a lot more democratic than anything I've heard about what the USAians are doing.

kakkoii superhero

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
#71  May 05, 2012, 04:28:10 am
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sorry for me not being american, and their weird election system, in my rather corrupt but still functioning democratic country, president can be FIRED by the parliament, and I has happened in the past.
so 4-5 years contract can void halfway when he is fucking up real badly.

Jmorphman

Re: Master Chief Plotting To Destroy Obama
New #72  May 05, 2012, 05:59:22 am
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Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 06:06:12 am by Jmorphman
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