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4 buttons fighter is just not enough (Read 23783 times)

Started by Blade Art, May 14, 2010, 01:26:02 pm
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Blade Art

4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#1  May 14, 2010, 01:26:02 pm
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A good fighting games needs 6 buttons. Light Medium and Strong Punch/Kick.
Why? Because it increases exponentially the array of gameplay, the priorities conflicts, the combos available and the overall strategical aspect, and interest.

I don't get how people can be arguing that KOF is a better fighter than Street Fighter.

You?
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Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 01:33:52 pm by Blade Art

Cyanide

Re: A 4 buttons fighter sucks.
#2  May 14, 2010, 01:28:36 pm
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Requesting you change the topic title to something far less controversial that won't involve people giving you shit.

KoF is more technical than SF. It takes more skill to pull off the longer combos and is in general a cleverer game.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Rote Zaungast

Re: A 4 buttons fighter sucks.
#3  May 14, 2010, 01:30:52 pm
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whats up with these people making themselves look bad lately
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K.O.D

Re: A 4 buttons fighter sucks.
#4  May 14, 2010, 01:31:39 pm
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it's bladeart, did you forget about him? read up his post history.

Mechy

Re: A 4 buttons fighter sucks.
#5  May 14, 2010, 01:35:58 pm
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4 buttons are how true men play
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."

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Blade Art

Re: A 4 buttons fighter sucks.
#6  May 14, 2010, 01:43:44 pm
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Cyanide said, May 14, 2010, 01:28:36 pm
Requesting you change the topic title to something far less controversial that won't involve people giving you shit.

KoF is more technical than SF. It takes more skill to pull off the longer combos and is in general a cleverer game.
whatever the title KOF-tards would flame anyway. They are delusional loosers. I knew it before starting the thread.

I still made the thread because I expect some good posts that will prove the indisputable superiority of street fighter/6-buttons over Kof-crap/4-buttons.
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Mechy

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#7  May 14, 2010, 01:47:05 pm
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but what id i like both games about as much and yet think that four buttons are better? :/
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."

"Okay, okay. So you put a Nazi on the Moon. Fuck you, Moon."

K.O.D

Re: A 4 buttons fighter sucks.
#8  May 14, 2010, 01:48:59 pm
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Blade Art said, May 14, 2010, 01:43:44 pm
Cyanide said, May 14, 2010, 01:28:36 pm
Requesting you change the topic title to something far less controversial that won't involve people giving you shit.

KoF is more technical than SF. It takes more skill to pull off the longer combos and is in general a cleverer game.
whatever the title KOF-tards would flame anyway. They are delusional loosers. I knew it before starting the thread.

I still made the thread because I expect some good posts that will prove the indisputable superiority of street fighter/6-buttons over Kof-crap/4-buttons.

you're attempting to flame bait as usual, like the shithead you are.

FYI I play SF3, Blazblue and KOF regularly and I prefer 4 buttons.

Cyanide

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#9  May 14, 2010, 01:54:53 pm
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No, people would NOT flame anyway. You post respectfully and people will reply that way. You've just set yourself up for another topic of people giving you shit.

Well done. You can lock this now.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Blade Art

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#10  May 14, 2010, 02:12:05 pm
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Cyanide said, May 14, 2010, 01:54:53 pm
No, people would NOT flame anyway. You post respectfully and people will reply that way. You've just set yourself up for another topic of people giving you shit.

Well done. You can lock this now.
changed the title, OP is respectful and makes a point, now expecting a cool debate despite the little skirmish with KOD. (KOD is a mere little kid easily offended over nothing overreacting and easily resort to flaming like a 8yo child)

will let open. but if you want to close anyway then so be it
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Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 02:28:57 pm by Blade Art

Cybaster

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#11  May 14, 2010, 02:15:56 pm
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There is no "Superior" button scheme, because as long as the general gameplay is good, it's fine.
Some games go for a simple 3 button punch/kick/special scheme, and they're fine.
Others go for light/medium/strong scheme (no difference between punch and kick) and they're fine too.
It's the overall mechanics which make a gameplay interesting, not just the fact it has 3, 4 or 6 buttons.

Saying 6 buttons > 4 buttons just because it offers more possibilities is just retarded.
Using this argument, then I would say that 20 buttons > 6 buttons. Simple, use your keyboard :
- Q W E R T Y U I O P for the punches.
- A S D F G H J K L ; for kicks.
Each button from left to right would be a more powerful attack. Q would be a little slap, while P would be a gigantic smash with two punches. That would definitely make the gameplay better, since it increases exponentially the array of gameplay, the priorities conflicts, the combos available and the overall strategical aspect, and interest. :wink3:
See how bad your argument is !

Conclusion : a gameplay with 3 buttons can be much more interesting than a 200+ buttons gameplay, because all the mechanics (super jump, combo system, parry, counter, focus attack, dodge, evade, guard break, T.O.P, etc.) count more than simply the number of buttons.

Rote Zaungast

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#12  May 14, 2010, 02:20:30 pm
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why did you waste your time?
not enough people playing with your privates today?
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kakkoii superhero

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#13  May 14, 2010, 02:25:11 pm
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I like 6 button SF game, since I like playing with my reflex and like to implement my own combo pattern, but 4 button games you chose as example is not a good choice to compare the 6 button betterness with, since KoF has more complex gameplay in other form like small jump, roll, dodge, so gameplaywise SF is more straight forward.
I like SF better, still. but graphically I prefer SNK's

Loona

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#14  May 14, 2010, 02:28:34 pm
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I like SF and other Capcom games, but a 6 button scheme increases the odd of having normals that don't get much use compared to the advantages of others. If you need variety outside a 4-button scheme there's always command normals.

Also, a 6-button scheme practically forces the use of an alternative joypad or joystick in order to play properly - personally it still feels damn weird to use the shoulder buttons just to access more regular attacks - so a default controller cripples your game experience with such a game.

The two buttons used for extra normal attacks which might not even be used that often could be used for other functions common in the game so that they wouldn't require double buttons presses, such as rolls, focus attacks, throws, etc...


There are some specific cases where 6 buttons have advantages, like special moves with 3 variations (ex: Yamazaki's QCB-punch), but unless the character has lots of moves, that usually isn't hard to apply on a 4-button configuration.

ExShadow

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#15  May 14, 2010, 02:32:54 pm
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To each his own.

Blade Art

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#16  May 14, 2010, 02:34:37 pm
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Cybaster said, May 14, 2010, 02:15:56 pm
There is no "Superior" button scheme, because as long as the general gameplay is good, it's fine.
Some games go for a simple 3 button punch/kick/special scheme, and they're fine.
Others go for light/medium/strong scheme (no difference between punch and kick) and they're fine too.
It's the overall mechanics which make a gameplay interesting, not just the fact it has 3, 4 or 6 buttons.

Saying 6 buttons > 4 buttons just because it offers more possibilities is just retarded.
Using this argument, then I would say that 20 buttons > 6 buttons. Simple, use your keyboard :
- Q W E R T Y U I O P for the punches.
- A S D F G H J K L ; for kicks.
Each button from left to right would be a more powerful attack. Q would be a little slap, while P would be a gigantic smash with two punches. That would definitely make the gameplay better, since it increases exponentially the array of gameplay, the priorities conflicts, the combos available and the overall strategical aspect, and interest. :wink3:
See how bad your argument is !

Conclusion : a gameplay with 3 buttons can be much more interesting than a 200+ buttons gameplay, because all the mechanics (super jump, combo system, parry, counter, focus attack, dodge, evade, guard break, T.O.P, etc.) count more than simply the number of buttons.
I just said 6>4, where do I say the more the merrier. it's common sense too much button would generate confusion and be counterproductive. Altho 8 buttons should still be playable and more enjoyable than 6.

And I know game mechanics are an important factor (kof lacks any real mechanics btw) so you have to read in my OP that with similar game mechanics, 6>4.
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K.O.D

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#17  May 14, 2010, 02:35:56 pm
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Blade Art said, May 14, 2010, 02:34:37 pm
And I know game mechanics are an important factor (kof lacks any real mechanics btw) so you have to read in my OP that with similar game mechanics, 6>4.

there you go again with your retarded comments, this thread would turn out nicely if you weren't such a humongous fanboy douchebag.

Mechy

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#18  May 14, 2010, 02:38:03 pm
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Blade Art said, May 14, 2010, 02:34:37 pm
(kof lacks any real mechanics btw)
-Guardcancels
-dodge rolls
-knockback attack
-maxmode
-super and dreem cancers
-HSDM health limit
-team member switching

and many more in the diffrent games

now were the fuck is my coffee
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."

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Cyanide

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#19  May 14, 2010, 02:40:41 pm
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Quote
(KOD is a mere little kid easily offended over nothing overreacting and easily resort to flaming like a 8yo child)
How does that help your argument at all. Either post NICELY, or stop posting. This is your last warning.

A total fucking asshole said, May 14, 2010, 02:38:03 pm
Blade Art said, May 14, 2010, 02:34:37 pm
(kof lacks any real mechanics btw)
-Guardcancels
-dodge rolls
-knockback attack
-maxmode
-super and dreem cancers
-HSDM health limit
-team member switching

and many more in the diffrent games

now were the fuck is my coffee
Missed armour mode, counter mode, SDM's. Dodge, reversals, multiple follow ups, 98's extra and advanced, power charge, strikers (they even included some odd emotion system for the strikers in 2k1)


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

aokmaniac13

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#20  May 14, 2010, 02:42:07 pm
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More buttons = more useless normals.
In a game like SF for example you end up using only a few out of the 18 normal moves your characters.  And even then, they give these characters command normals as well!
A notable exception is Guile of course, whose lack of special moves is made up for with amazing normals all around.

So as far as number of buttons goes, I argue that less buttons tends to promote better game design.  (As if that was not a design choice already)


Also stop feeding the troll.

Mechy

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#21  May 14, 2010, 02:42:37 pm
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Cyanide said, May 14, 2010, 02:40:41 pm
Missed armour mode, counter mode, SDM's. Dodge, reversals, multiple follow ups, 98's extra and advanced, power charge, strikers (they even included some odd emotion system for the strikers in 2k1)

Quote
and many more in the diffrent games
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."

"Okay, okay. So you put a Nazi on the Moon. Fuck you, Moon."

Cyanide

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#22  May 14, 2010, 02:46:47 pm
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And KOD: You can leave out the insults too thanks.


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They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Cybaster

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#23  May 14, 2010, 02:51:30 pm
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LOL Blade Art owned. He must be confusing KOF with SF1.

aokmaniac13

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#24  May 14, 2010, 03:12:01 pm
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I don't see how game mechanics are relevant to the discussion though.  You could easily have a roll button or a charge button but KOF just decided to map them to multiple buttons.

kakkoii superhero

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#25  May 14, 2010, 03:14:40 pm
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Blade Art said, May 14, 2010, 02:34:37 pm
I just said 6>4, where do I say the more the merrier. it's common sense too much button would generate confusion and be counterproductive. Altho 8 buttons should still be playable and more enjoyable than 6.


8 button, what is the lightest then, a pat in the head or tap in the shoulder? if you watch carefully, there is already difference animation with the same button, performed close or farther, and when you hold certain directional while performing as command move, 6 button system is nice, since there is different function for light medium or hard special eventhough they look kinda similar, but 8 is not needed and impractical

aokmaniac13

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#26  May 14, 2010, 03:16:00 pm
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Street Fighter 4 actually has close attacks as well, dunno about older ones though.

Garuda

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#27  May 14, 2010, 03:18:20 pm
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I think 6 buttons is better for the variety, but it's true that usually the medium ones are kind of useless.

So I am ok with 4 buttons too.

What I usually don't like at all it's the 3/2 buttons layout, but depends of the gameplay : I always loved RB series for the chars, the stile and ecc. but hated the 3 buttons gameplay.


Loona

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#28  May 14, 2010, 03:32:04 pm
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Insanius said, May 14, 2010, 03:12:01 pm
You could easily have a roll button or a charge button but KOF just decided to map them to multiple buttons.

I figure it has more to do with the limitation of NeoGeo commands only using 4 buttons - very noticeable in the early Samurai Shodown games, which are 6-button games trapped in a 4-button system.

With modern joypads having about 8 buttons, it's easier to customize shortcuts to your liking if more than half of them aren't taken by the regular attacks.

"Bad News" Hoffmann

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#29  May 14, 2010, 03:37:02 pm
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zomfg tekken and soul calibur have only 4 buttons too.

K.O.D

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#30  May 14, 2010, 03:40:40 pm
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Virtua Fighter has only 3 buttons and is considered very complex.

kakkoii superhero

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#31  May 14, 2010, 03:43:35 pm
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though medium shoryuken is the most useful since it is the most diagonal, I think.
and fancy kicks in SF also always in medium to make it more useful.
but I never use standing medium punch if not as a part of combo.

Iced

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#32  May 14, 2010, 04:14:02 pm
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Jojo superior, three buttons is all you really need.( with a fourth for special actions)

Matrilwood

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#33  May 14, 2010, 04:15:48 pm
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Analyze the number of buttons on a PlayStation controller, and there positions. Mystery solved.
Mugen, AKA, StreetFighter vs. King of Fighters.

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Garuda

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#34  May 14, 2010, 04:18:44 pm
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LOL, what are you talking about?

I would be so happy if any fighting games had 2 buttons for puches, 2 buttons for kicks and 1 or 2 for special actions.


Rote Zaungast

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#35  May 14, 2010, 04:22:09 pm
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fucking sf3 sucks because the controls in sf4 are shit
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Blade Art

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#36  May 14, 2010, 04:34:24 pm
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Insanius said, May 14, 2010, 02:42:07 pm
More buttons = more useless normals.
I don't think so the medium has usually a bit more priority than the strong and does more damage than the light, it's an excellent compromise.

Besides medium have often unique properties, for example in SSF2X, Ryu medium low kick hits farther than strong and light and is very useful for attack oriented gameplay, other example Ryu's medium punch hit twice in air. Cammy medium punch in air has a super priority and there's a shitload of other examples.

If you played street fighters, you'd know that there is no useless normals, each normal at its own usefulness.
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aokmaniac13

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#37  May 14, 2010, 04:44:44 pm
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Zangief's crouching MP has been useless up until SF4.  It's supposed to be an anti air but realistically it would never hit.

Mechy

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#38  May 14, 2010, 04:45:54 pm
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Jojo button layout ftw
"Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."

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Rote Zaungast

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#39  May 14, 2010, 04:50:27 pm
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all 6 buttons are useless, stepmania doesn't need any of that shit to kick ass
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MAO11

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#40  May 14, 2010, 05:06:15 pm
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i am a SF fan and i must say SF can't do flashy combos unlike kof where even direction buttons are necessary for doing a combo. SF is still the original for me but i think that is the only thing that's keeping it alive.

ryu>kyo
guile<terry
ken=iori
zangief=tizoc
kim>chunli
K9999 > ALL SF characters that exist and will exist.

kakkoii superhero

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#41  May 14, 2010, 05:12:56 pm
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6 buttons are OK, while 8 buttons (as in 4 levels of punches and kicks) are not
I like 6 button flexibility to more personalize your fighting.

however it doesn't mean 4 buttons system is "not enough" to spark up the gameplay.
and since you brought KoF as example it sounded trollish, and saying it has less game mechanic compared to SF was even more ridiculous, showed that you never played KoF at all.

Mr.L (Back and better than ever)

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#42  May 14, 2010, 05:14:25 pm
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Iced said, May 14, 2010, 04:14:02 pm
Jojo superior, three buttons is all you really need.( with a fourth for special actions)

Special Actions? I could've sworn they were called Stands.

Anyways, if you actually play Jojo's, you use all four buttons. However to make itself different from other fighters is the Stand system, which gives you new array of specials, supers, normals, etc.

As for how many buttons, it doesn't really matter until you play the game. A game could have up to 12 buttons, but it won't mean jack if the game is bad.

Iced

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#43  May 14, 2010, 05:20:14 pm
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Not every character has a stand ability. It behaves different for many characters, from hol horse where its a controllable bullet, to Shadow dio that has it for a sliding punch  to the barber that uses it to spin. Besides you can also use it for wakeup attacks with stands and to program some stands into attacking by themselves.

I can imagine fighting game fanboys complaining when the game was announced.
"DEAR GOD WHAT IS THIS SHIT, A STAND BUTTON? WHATS NEXT Capcom Co., Ltd.?!? A CROUCH BUTTON???"

Mr.L (Back and better than ever)

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#44  May 14, 2010, 05:23:40 pm
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Iced said, May 14, 2010, 05:20:14 pm
Not every character has a stand ability.
Every character except young joseph has a stand. =l

But yes, it seems each time they try something new, they get barked at for it.

kakkoii superhero

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#45  May 14, 2010, 05:51:27 pm
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I haven't play jojo for years, but I think

anubis simply draws his sword, and shadow dio doesn't have any stand, I forgot what hol horse does with it.

Iced

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#46  May 14, 2010, 05:54:07 pm
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controllable bullet, like i said, the barber just spins around, other characters have different abilities, like I said, passive or active stand modes, the button was just used for "odd" attacks.

Epic Winnery

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#47  May 14, 2010, 07:56:08 pm
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I prefer the 6 button layout. I do agree that KOF has better looking combos and supers but with the 4 button, it feels like I'am limited. Thats why I love the CVS gameplay cause it's a mix of both. Both SNK and Capcom can fix each other's mistakes.

Nero D.

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#48  May 14, 2010, 08:22:58 pm
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4 button.
i cant count the reasons i should stay

one by one they all just fade away...


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TempesT

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#49  May 14, 2010, 09:55:16 pm
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SF has always been fundamentally sound, as far as footsies, mindgames and pokes. The extra buttons/normals add different priorities, ranges, comboability etc etc. SF4 is the most fundamentally sound fighter on the market right now, and it is 6 buttons. A 4 button fighter forces the use of command normals (which may as well be an extra normal button) in it's combos, although that's speaking strictly for a King of Fighters game.

I don't prefer one over the other, but that's what the situation is atm, blind allegiance to one or the other is just silly.
you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Starlogical

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#50  May 14, 2010, 10:04:35 pm
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bitter nothings said, May 14, 2010, 04:22:09 pm
fucking sf3 sucks because the controls in sf4 are shit
Wait what?
SF3 is amazing.
So what if you think the controls in SF4 are crap?
SF3 was pretty much established as an amazing game.

And yes I agree with TempesT.
The only game IMO that actually mostly revolves around reading the enemy's mind is SF.
It's pretty much the only series IMO where combos aren't everything.

And regarding KOF.....
It seems like it should be an easier game to play, but it's a technically more advanced game.
Good, but not exactly my cup of tea.

c001357

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#51  May 14, 2010, 10:25:42 pm
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(Mu)μ-12 said, May 14, 2010, 10:04:35 pm
And yes I agree with TempesT.
The only game IMO that actually mostly revolves around reading the enemy's mind is SF.
It's pretty much the only series IMO where combos aren't everything.

what are you talking about.

personally, i dont care, though i wouldnt mind 20 buttons

felineki

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#52  May 14, 2010, 10:29:06 pm
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Insanius said, May 14, 2010, 03:16:00 pm
Street Fighter 4 actually has close attacks as well, dunno about older ones though.
Close-range attacks were first in SF2. They dropped them for Alpha and Alpha 2, but then brought them back for Alpha 3, IIRC. I'm pretty sure SF3 had them, too.

S.D.

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#53  May 15, 2010, 12:02:58 am
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It's better to ignore Blade Art and his horrid, baseless posts.

Iced said, May 14, 2010, 05:20:14 pm
to Shadow dio that has it for a sliding punch
That's DF+HP.
The extra button IS a stand attack button. For everyone (Except young Joeph!)
It's just that said attacks (Shadow DIO, Khan, Mariah, Rubber Soul, Pet Shop, Anubis Nitouryuu Polnareff, Hol Horse, etc.) are inactive stands attacks.

Blade Art

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#54  May 19, 2010, 12:15:05 am
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(Mu)μ-12 said, May 14, 2010, 10:04:35 pm
And regarding KOF.....
It seems like it should be an easier game to play, but it's a technically more advanced game.
Good, but not exactly my cup of tea.
How exactly the gameplay of KOF is more technical than SF?  o_O
SF has always been historically 5 steps ahead of KOF in term of innovations, game mechanics and the more advanced 6buttons systems

KOF has just kept copying part of SF innovations over the years but KOF at any given year was technically much inferior to the SF counterpart.
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Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#55  May 19, 2010, 12:33:49 am
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Don't try pass up your opinion as a fact, it's annoying.

MDI

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#56  May 19, 2010, 12:41:08 am
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The only time I've ever "hated" 4-button gameplay was when MVC2 came along without any Mediums. Versus Series had always been 6 buttons..so that kind of bummed me out. It was a direct sequel, so it was quite strange. Unlike say Street Fighter Alpha compared to say some new Street Fighter series that would be less buttons, which would be understandable. New series, new gameplay scheme... no problem.

Other then that I don't think its a big deal. I'm more then used to KoF's 4-buttons.  ;D
ey

S.D.

Chaineable command attacks, MAX cancels, different jumps for a faster pace, etc.
#57  May 19, 2010, 12:43:30 am
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To be fair, I wasn't fond of CvS's four button setup.

Blade Art said, May 19, 2010, 12:15:05 am
How exactly the gameplay of KOF is more technical than SF?  o_O
You're new to fighting games and/or most likely have no skill whatsoever.

We could try to educate you, but what's the point? It would be a colossal waste of time and it's obvious that you're not changing your mind, you're just trolling. Or a moron that confuses opinions with facts.

Orochi Gill

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#58  May 19, 2010, 12:44:10 am
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Blade Art said, May 19, 2010, 12:15:05 am
How exactly the gameplay of KOF is more technical than SF?  o_O

Because not every move is a QCF motion, and it requires more tactics than "run up to opponent and hit a bunch of times".

Blade Art said, May 19, 2010, 12:15:05 am
SF has always been historically 5 steps ahead of KOF in term of innovations, game mechanics and the more advanced 6buttons systems

I'm sorry, I can't take anything you post seriously, especially now.
Orochi, a "god", came before Gill, who proclaimed himself to be one.
If they're so innovate why is most of their SF-based fighting library multiple versions of the same game and crossovers, when KoF does neither (mostly)?

Blade Art said, May 19, 2010, 12:15:05 am
KOF has just kept copying part of SF innovations over the years but KOF at any given year was technically much inferior to the SF counterpart.

Bull-fucking-shit
- SF never fought an actual god.
- KoF referenced other series-es (Athena, Ikari Warriors) of SNK's before SF started referencing Final Fight

...I could go on. You know, it's not over, you haven't won, stop being a blind fanboy.

Foobs

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#59  May 19, 2010, 12:52:52 am
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Blade Art said, May 19, 2010, 12:15:05 am
(Mu)μ-12 said, May 14, 2010, 10:04:35 pm
And regarding KOF.....
It seems like it should be an easier game to play, but it's a technically more advanced game.
Good, but not exactly my cup of tea.
How exactly the gameplay of KOF is more technical than SF?  o_O
SF has always been historically 5 steps ahead of KOF in term of innovations, game mechanics and the more advanced 6buttons systems

KOF has just kept copying part of SF innovations over the years but KOF at any given year was technically much inferior to the SF counterpart.
Elaborate or no one is going to take you seriously.

Nero D.

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#60  May 19, 2010, 01:05:15 am
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This guy confuses me with his statements.

What the hell's so advanced about 6 buttons over 4?
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Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#61  May 19, 2010, 01:06:54 am
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It gives you tons of useless basics that nobody would use in an actual match giving the game much more depth!

Orochi Gill

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#62  May 19, 2010, 01:07:12 am
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He's probably lost without a third punch and kick button.

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Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#63  May 19, 2010, 01:08:25 am
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a true man needs only one button  8)

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Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#64  May 19, 2010, 01:09:23 am
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i'm still under the impression that blade art would fucking love a fighting game with 10 buttons (5 punches and 5 kicks)

Iced

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#65  May 19, 2010, 01:17:04 am
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TempesT

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#66  May 19, 2010, 01:27:13 am
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you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

SnowShingo

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#67  May 19, 2010, 01:42:07 am
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practically every gameplay system for fighters in use today can be traced directly back the SNK fighters. most of their systems where literally years ahead of the curve. capcom copied everything that made their fighters good from SNK titles. the only time in recent history where this might, might, have been the opposite is with SF3 and MotW, where Just Defend was a very poor imitation of the Parry system.

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Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#68  May 19, 2010, 05:03:53 am
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luis2345

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#69  May 19, 2010, 05:59:16 am
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in my personal opinion , SF is like a game for people that are starting into fighting games ,i dont really like it because lacks of hops/hyper hops giving you a more  lazy and slow gameplay (but a very tactical gameplay), in kof having hops and hyper hops you can play fast with overheads, instant overheads, crossups,jump and hit low games etc, it makes the game more exciting, tactical and fast.


personally i like 4 buttons ,  but having  2 more wont hurt, every single move in fighting games is useful for SOMETHING,  ryu without C.medium kick affects his gameplay a lot  it has properties that weak and strong versions doesnt have. 
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Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#70  May 19, 2010, 06:05:16 am
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you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Cyanide

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#71  May 19, 2010, 06:26:41 am
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That just means the weak/strong versions are useless  ;P

On most characters, there are 3-4 basics that are excellent and worth using, and the rest just aren't.

Take Vice, You'd use standing A, crouching B, Jumping CD, Both C attacks (far is range, close is cancel) and close D. These all allow combo's or have good poke/priority. You don't use the other ones because they're not nearly as good.

With more buttons, you get more useless attacks that aren't worth using. Slow, bad hitboxes that miss rather easy, etc etc.

Generally when you play a fighter you use the attacks and specials that are the most useful. Unless you're fucking round of course. Most fighters would work fine with just 3 buttons cos you just don't use the rest of the options.


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Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#72  May 19, 2010, 08:03:18 am
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ShoShingo said, May 19, 2010, 01:42:07 am
practically every gameplay system for fighters in use today can be traced directly back the SNK fighters. most of their systems where literally years ahead of the curve. capcom copied everything that made their fighters good from SNK titles. the only time in recent history where this might, might, have been the opposite is with SF3 and MotW, where Just Defend was a very poor imitation of the Parry system.

just defense w}has been there since world heroes, so entiher company did innovate, though for the sake of the argument the upper hadn might go to capcom in that one as noboyd cares aobut innovations from the minors.

S.D.

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#73  May 19, 2010, 09:11:17 am
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Nazi Guile said, May 19, 2010, 01:06:54 am
It gives you tons of useless basics that nobody would use in an actual match giving the game much more depth!
What about MULTISTANCE characters? You get two different sets of basic moves (Like... Gen? And believe me, I use the entire repertoire of both basic sets)

Nero D.

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#74  May 19, 2010, 09:23:54 am
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I'm just gonna be the bare medium and say both systems have their good uses. 4 button and 6 button.

Also let's narrow it down to the obvious two games on blast here

6 buttons (Streeet Fighter) have of course the medium punch which is very versatile in some situations because it's stronger than the weak attack but less likely to cause knockdown or heavy pushback like the hard attack.

4 button (KOF) has the advantage of being more tactical in situations where the command moves act as medium attacks sometimes.

BTW the Real Bout series only had 3 buttons unless you count the plane shift buttons so I think that this thread was started because a Street Fighter fanboy wanted to bash King of Fighters fanboys because King of Fighters is the only fighting game SNK has ever created. Pfft I'm done.
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luis2345

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#75  May 19, 2010, 09:30:59 am
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Cyanide said, May 19, 2010, 06:26:41 am
That just means the weak/strong versions are useless  ;P


Take Vice, You'd use standing A, crouching B, Jumping CD, Both C attacks (far is range, close is cancel) and close D. These all allow combo's or have good poke/priority. You don't use the other ones because they're not nearly as good.


what about standing CD , Jump A and Jump D,  Crouch D (whiffable with qcb + B ) , Crouch  C (makes miracles) , Crouch A poke, Stand. D anti-air (now you got 3 anti-airs for different situations). i find most of vice's moves very useful except for jump C and B, vice is pretty weak in Air vs Air combat
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Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#76  May 19, 2010, 09:41:00 am
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I don't like standing D because of how slow it is, and standing CD is the same thing. You can cancel into mayhem from c.D if you want, but anyone worth their salt will block that too, and mayhem isn't overly safe on block. I like trips, and i use it, but it's not one of her best attacks.

Aside from clashing in the air, with A, vice isn't very good at anything air based and you're probably better off using ravenous.

c.C has short range and the clsn2 extends past the clsn1 making it pretty shit for AA. You can combo out of it, but i'd prefer close C because it's faster and has more range on it. Close D is the best though, lots of time to cancel into a super, or gorefest.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

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Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#77  May 19, 2010, 11:33:43 am
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you are seriously underestimating crouch C, that move has got more priority offensively that most dps.

RunningWild

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#78  May 19, 2010, 11:56:14 am
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Ahahahahaha... KOF more technical than SF.

Ahahahahaha... SF more technical than KOF.

Karate Champ is more technical than any fighter ever released ever.

Loud Howard

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#79  May 19, 2010, 04:02:46 pm
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Wild Tengu said, May 19, 2010, 11:56:14 am
Ahahahahaha... KOF more technical than SF.

Ahahahahaha... SF more technical than KOF.

Karate Champ is more technical than any fighter ever released ever.

These are the Words of The King Of TROLLS XIII

TempesT

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#80  May 19, 2010, 07:36:44 pm
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People just need to learn to use basics before specials :S
you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Bastard Mami

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#81  May 19, 2010, 08:48:36 pm
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4 buttons is superior japan, 6 buttons is fat american

Nnaajj

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#82  May 19, 2010, 08:56:08 pm
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Luis Alejandro said, July 27, 2010, 07:46:45 pm
RaiN said, July 27, 2010, 07:44:57 pm
Kinda strange but I woke up today and her hand was on my ass cheek
I won't suspect anything though I'll take it she was sleeping and didn't notice
you should have flipped over slowly
Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 09:25:45 pm by Nnaajj

Titiln

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#83  May 19, 2010, 09:25:17 pm
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how

TempesT

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#84  May 19, 2010, 09:59:31 pm
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Yeah no
you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

momo!

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#85  May 19, 2010, 10:05:49 pm
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at least it's not the two button system where the harder you'd hit the stronger your attack would be o_O

Starlogical

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#86  May 19, 2010, 11:01:22 pm
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rednavi -RETIRED

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#87  May 20, 2010, 01:45:21 am
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also Neo Geo Pocket system in games like KOF R-1/2 with that stupid tap/hold system.

Bastard Mami

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#88  May 20, 2010, 06:43:11 am
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Jmorphman

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#89  May 20, 2010, 07:22:58 am
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K'Ura ~ said, May 20, 2010, 06:43:11 am
(Mu)μ-12 said, May 19, 2010, 11:01:22 pm
yeah said, May 19, 2010, 10:05:49 pm
at least it's not the two button system where the harder you'd hit the stronger your attack would be o_O
AKA the original Street Fighter 1.

what? the sf1 I played in the arcades had 6 buttons. you might be confusing it with world heroes.
Some versions of Street Fighter 1 had pressure sensitive pads, one for punches, one for kicks; depending on how hard they were hit, one could get light, medium, or heavy attacks. They didn't work that great, and were phased out.

Bastard Mami

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#90  May 20, 2010, 09:12:56 am
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oh, that's like the 3 buttons neogeo arcades, then.

Iced

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#91  May 20, 2010, 11:24:44 am
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K'Ura ~ said, May 20, 2010, 09:12:56 am
oh, that's like the 3 buttons neogeo arcades, then.
Also, first sf2 version for the pc, the longer you held out the button the stronger the attack would come out, combos were a bug on those versions, caused by the removal of the time delayed hit strengths.

aokmaniac13

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#92  May 21, 2010, 02:20:44 pm
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One Must Fall 2097 has two buttons, punch and kick.  Hold forward for lighter attacks and back for stronger attacks.

It it more in depth or less so?

c001357

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#93  May 21, 2010, 04:47:19 pm
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what the fuck is this "useless normals" crap
  • assuming more buttons would necessarily mean more direct attacks
  • if there is a chance of useless normals, why dismiss the possibility of useful normals?
  • can normals be useful because nobody ever expects them because everyone thinks theyre useless?
  • how would you know what normals are useless? do you study its properties/frames/hitbox in different contexts?

technically speaking, i would prefer games with more options. they may or may not need additional buttons
Last Edit: May 21, 2010, 05:00:28 pm by c001357

kakkoii superhero

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#94  May 21, 2010, 05:18:22 pm
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sometime by having less option, people can more optimally use what they have, because with more options our brain got more choices to ruled out when deciding a reactional move, and then come with decision in slower than optimal timing... and timing is a more important factor

Cyanide

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#95  May 21, 2010, 11:14:39 pm
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you base the usefulness of a normal by trying it out, how it fits into playstyle, and primarily, how often you hit with it. Some moves have too short a range or are just too slow to be considered useful. I keep forgetting that, using necros jumping HP and getting hammered by every other attack in the game.


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Luis Alejandro

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#96  May 21, 2010, 11:18:15 pm
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Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#97  May 22, 2010, 12:47:04 am
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Cyanide said, May 21, 2010, 11:14:39 pm
you base the usefulness of a normal by trying it out, how it fits into playstyle, and primarily, how often you hit with it. Some moves have too short a range or are just too slow to be considered useful. I keep forgetting that, using necros jumping HP and getting hammered by every other attack in the game.

Normals can still beat out other normals, that doesn't mean the normal that got beat out is "useless". How often you hit with it shouldn't be a part of distinguishing it's usefulness either, because that's user end. If you don't know when to use it, of course random scrubs will think it's useless, this is where the flow chart was born.

in short: c001357 is right.
you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Cyanide

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#98  May 22, 2010, 01:02:39 am
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Thats why all the faqs rate basics and tell you not to ever use some of them? If i have 2 moves of the same strength and one is good in 5 situations but move 2 is good in a single situation that move 1 is also good in, why would i use move 2?

If i have a move that is beaten out in EVERY clash i have ever been in why would i use it? If the situation a move requires is "p2 must be doing nothing at all" that's not a useful move.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

S.D.

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#99  May 22, 2010, 01:07:45 am
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Because said normal might have better range/is better for pokes?
Like SF4's Gen crane stance crouch MP... Which happens to be UNSAFE ON IT, that's why you chain into a special like his roll move.

TempesT

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#100  May 22, 2010, 01:13:53 am
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Yeah most FAQs are written by people who have no idea what they're talking about anyways.
you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Bastard Mami

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#101  May 22, 2010, 06:57:43 am
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but cyanide is talking for the case when the other move is completely outmatched, which happens a lot, let's say mvoe A and move B have the exact same clsn, but move A comes out faster, that makes move B completely useless.

TempesT

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#102  May 22, 2010, 07:20:48 am
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I hardly ever see that anymore.
you can't mixup a blind man, and you can't out think a brick ~skisonic
Street fighting is all about analysis, prediction, and reaction. That's it.

Orochi Gill

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#103  May 22, 2010, 07:22:50 am
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K'Ura ~ said, May 22, 2010, 06:57:43 am
but cyanide is talking for the case when the other move is completely outmatched, which happens a lot, let's say mvoe A and move B have the exact same clsn, but move A comes out faster, that makes move B completely useless.

Wouldn't it differ via juggle properties and all of that stuff though? I mean, perhaps the two moves hit the opponent in two different directions, thus leading to different combos.

Mechy

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#104  May 22, 2010, 08:42:00 am
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i gotta admit that darkstalkers would be boring with 4 buttons
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Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#105  May 22, 2010, 09:27:15 am
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I always liked SF better than KoF, but that's just because I grew up on SF. I like KoF as well.

Bastard Mami

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#106  May 22, 2010, 09:32:45 am
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Orochi Gill said, May 22, 2010, 07:22:50 am
K'Ura ~ said, May 22, 2010, 06:57:43 am
but cyanide is talking for the case when the other move is completely outmatched, which happens a lot, let's say mvoe A and move B have the exact same clsn, but move A comes out faster, that makes move B completely useless.

Wouldn't it differ via juggle properties and all of that stuff though? I mean, perhaps the two moves hit the opponent in two different directions, thus leading to different combos.

the faster attack ahs better juggle properties; happy now?

S.D.

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#107  May 22, 2010, 10:30:10 am
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In that case, the other attack has different properties, thus it's used for mind games and to mix up.
There we go.

SnowShingo

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#108  May 23, 2010, 06:16:05 pm
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TempesT said, May 19, 2010, 07:36:44 pm
People just need to learn to use basics before specials :S

true story when sfII first came out in arcades, the arcade that was around here at the time got it in this really crappy cabinet that didn't even have any movelists posted under the screen. for the longest time my friends and i didn't even know there were special moves, until i did hadouken. we were all between the ages or 8 and 10 at the time, so doing it to them made me feel like a big man.

Bastard Mami

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#109  May 24, 2010, 04:20:39 am
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Black Jack said, May 22, 2010, 10:30:10 am
In that case, the other attack has different properties, thus it's used for mind games and to mix up.
There we go.

no, they have the same properties, we are talking about cyanide's case.

S.D.

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#110  May 24, 2010, 05:27:27 am
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Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 05:45:07 am by Black Jack

Cyanide

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#111  May 24, 2010, 08:15:55 am
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Myabe they've phased it out then. It was present in earlier games. Omega Reds Jumping MK was shit in comparison to his jumping MP. less range, could only hit for a couple of ticks, had a tiny hitbox and missed easily.

His standing jab was far better than his standing short as well. So much so that you would not ever use his standing short.


In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

c001357

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#112  May 24, 2010, 09:32:42 am
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would you consider moves whose only use are within combos useful?
besides most developers would at least try to differentiate their attacks. those cases might just be design oversights

Cyanide

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#113  May 24, 2010, 09:35:44 am
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his jab had more priority, linked into itself, and came out faster. The standing short on the other hand was a slow single hit with about 2 pixels more range and 10 points more damage. If i was going to do a standard chain going punch>punch is far easier than kick>punch.



In M.U.G.E.N there is no magic button

They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.

Iced

Re: 4 buttons fighter is just not enough
#114  May 25, 2010, 02:43:25 pm
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He was however, a COTA character, they were still very iffy about what they were doing with the characters, you could wrestle a character out of throw and combo throws together and in the end of chains in that game.

Getting snatched off the air during a combo was weird as hell.
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