The Mugen Fighters Guild

M.U.G.E.N Central => Projects => Topic started by: Elix on July 16, 2007, 03:15:26 am

Title: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 16, 2007, 03:15:26 am
Serious Kyo Kusanagi


(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/portraitBig.png)


Story:

Kyo is already 30, he isn't a schoolboy anymore. Though he's relatively young his inherent gift, immense talent and enourmous fighting experience allowed him to reach transcedental levels of fist and flame mastery. Remembering how hard it was to beat Mukai back in 2003, and Orochi's messenger Magaki afterwards, and seeing all those new faces that joined the King of Fighters tournament, he decided that he cannot stay on the same fighting level but has to improve. Therefore he determined to take a journey to seek new techniques that he can learn.
The first man to come to his mind was Ken Masters. They once met in a battle and Kyo remembered him well. Ken Masters was also a fire user though Kyo's flames were of a different nature. Kyo remembered him as a man who used both his hands and legs equally well. Kicking has never been Kyo's profile. That left him feeling somewhat inferior to some of his opponents. So, despite the fact that his decision to learn kicking techniques would brake long-formed traditional Kusanagi-Ryuu Kobujutsu (actually, Kyo have been doing this as far as he remembers himself) and would surely make his father Saisyu angry (yet again), he went to Ken's place. Ken was surprised to say the least that famous King of Fighters champion came to seek his coaching. At first he refused Kyo's request and told him that his arts are not the thing that can be taught easily just like that. Yet Ken was very much interested in this man and in bottom of his heart even felt honored by Kyo's visit. Then Kyo suggested Ken to see for himself whether he is worthy to wield these techniques or not and began a fight. It was a very hot battle. Ken stopped the fight just before Kyo was going to ignite the air with Orochinagi. Kyo's request was accepted.
Kyo was a great apprentice and Ken was a great tutor. After four months of intensive training Kyo went back to Japan where he spent his remaining time until the next tournament in self training. Saisyu was surprised at how his son has matured. Kyo asked his father to teach him some more Kusanagi-Ryuu Kobujutsu techniques and Saisyu showed him a few family secrets. Kyo has gained aerial and double Yami Barai; double Oniyaki; aerial R.E.D. kick, even his rival's Iori Yagami's Yuri Ori and a lot more.
The reason of Kyo Kusanagi's constantly changing moves throughout the KOF tournaments was that he was searching. When Kyo learned a new move, he focused on it completely, and he tried not to use techniques he has already mastered. Now he decides that it is time for him to start using all arsenal of moves he knows. He couldn't have taken on such a difficult task of Choice earlier.
But more than techniques Kyo has acquired something that made him truly a fearsome opponent. A new fighting spirit. Kyo used to be rather lazy and overconfident in his matches. And only when he got serious he were able to defeat his opponents. From now on Kyo will be Serious from the very beginning till the very end of his battles...

Description

Serious Kyo is essentially a KOF XI ex Kyo with greatly enlarged movelist and a lot of extra stuff. The gameplay is made as close to KOF XI as possible. Hit boxes, pause/hittimes, velocities are taken from the origin. At the same time I've always used the newest KOF game possible (It isn't possible to take CLSN boxes from KOF XI, so I used KOF 2002-2003). In the matter of game balance, he is surely more powerful that Kyo from any year. If put into original game, he can be sub-boss or even a boss character because his moves doesn't have major disadvantages. So when I chose between a slow Aragami from KOF 2002 and a fast one from KOF XI I preferred XI.

The final release version of Serious Kyo will have such things as:
- Command buffering (credits goes to Misamu K. Young who shared with me his code which he used at KOFZ. This code was modified by me though to consume 4 variables instead of 40 :P );
- proper cornerpushes (YongMing's code modified by me);
- KOF XI damage scaling;
- counter wire, dizzy, guard crush, guard death;
- super cancels, dream cancels including super cancel bar;
- KOF Maximum Impact stylish arts (new beautiful yet balanced combos);
- dynamic AI. 6-8 levels of difficulty. I haven't yet decided on whether it should depent on Mugen's AI difficulty setting or number of pallettes and such things;
- two strikers & spectators as well - Saisyu Kusanagi & Shingo Yabuki;
- custom pallettes. Example:
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/Kyo-Rock.png)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/Kyo-NESTS.png)
...
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The beta release isn't going to occur publicly. The final release date depends on how long will it take me to finish some things. And on my job schedule.
Here's a video I wrote one month ago. There were a lot of flaws in him that time, such as missing sparks/sounds (changed group numbers), incorrect velocities... But it will give you some idea on what he'll be. I'll make another video soon, demonstrating his normals, command and special moves.

Promo video (~70%) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2yo9eB7G5E
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: tetsuo9999 on July 16, 2007, 03:36:06 am
Cool, how did you get those cool effects for the fire???
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on July 16, 2007, 03:49:18 am
I think he can juggle too much, don't recall the Aragami chain setting opponents for juggles (but then again you're arranging him).
Looks pretty good though.

Quote
it should depent on Mugen's AI difficulty
There's no such trigger.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: ziltama on July 16, 2007, 06:06:53 am
A different outfit would work better and make him seem more original.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 16, 2007, 08:11:30 am
Cool, how did you get those cool effects for the fire???
http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=53183.0
Those values were guessed by me. Right now I'm using KOFZ AfterImage properties which were shared by Misamu from Mugen China and which are actually a lot better :sugoi:
I think he can juggle too much, don't recall the Aragami chain setting opponents for juggles (but then again you're arranging him).
Looks pretty good though.

Quote
it should depent on Mugen's AI difficulty
There's no such trigger.
Kyo  can juggle with Aragami so much since KOF XI.  ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuZtuILaV2A
And I was guessing right that there's no such trigger for Mugen so that's reducing number of variants :)
A different outfit would work better and make him seem more original.
Yeah, but for that I'll have to repaint manually 500+ sprites. Won't be able to make this for the beta release.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on July 16, 2007, 09:35:33 am
This character looks like my wet dream come true, Elix. I knew you were an awesome person, just never said it out loud.

I like the story you gave him. Creative. :P

And yes, Aragami juggles shitloads in KOFXI. So I don't see the problem with that. Seeing as you are somewhat making everything about Kyo better (and nothing worse, unlike what SNK does to balance their characters), he seems very much sub-boss level; there really isn't much to criticize about what he does in that video of yours. Just looks damn solid to me.

IMO If this Kyo was a real sub-boss, SNK would give him Adel's defence (lowest in the game, about 90 defence MUGEN standards) due to all his offensive advantages.

What DMs will he have? I see that the LDM seems to be (Kusanagi's?) Mushiki, and you demo'd Orochinagi and 182 Shiki. So those are Kyo's staples I guess; but will he have more? I'm really looking forward to (if he will ever get it) an arranged Kamigomi that Kyo developed after all these years. Or maybe an attack (like Kamigomi) but with an entirely different name or something.

Looks great, dude. I'm very excited to see what comes out of this.  As for his outfit, I'd say don't worry about it right now. He looks fine as he is. If there was any new outfit you had in mind, do it later. I say gameplay first.

Quote
The gameplay is made as close to KOF XI as possible. Hit boxes, pause/hittimes, velocities are taken from the origin.
BTW, how'd you get KOFXI values? I thought it was impossible. =O

This Kyo is hot. Good luck with the rest, man.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 16, 2007, 09:55:30 am
BTW, how'd you get KOFXI values? I thought it was impossible. =O
Thanks, K' :) Collision boxes are taken from earlier games. But they remain practicaly the same throughout the years. Pause/hitpauses are counted by eye :) I record 60 FPS videos which I take with a PS2 emulator. As for velocities, I use a tool called "Movement Tool" by Suave Dude. I take position changes and durations from KOF XI and calculate the velocities.

Here's the list of super moves which are going to be in Serious Kyo.

1) DM + SDM 182 Shiki. It's qcf,qcf + A/C in KOF 2003 and in KOF XI. The same command for my Kyo.
2) DM + SDM Orochinagi. No comments :) qcb, hcf + A/C
3) DM + SDM from KOF 99, where Kyo rushes forward and hits opponent then ends with gut punches the opponent. =) qcb, qcb + A/C
4) DM + SDM 524 Shiki: Kamijiri & Kamigomi. It's his HSDM from KOF 2002 and SDM KOF XI. In my Kyo that move will look a little different from the original for both DM & SDM. hcb, hcb + A/C.
5) A qcf,hcb + A/C DM/SDM. It's like Iori's Ya Otome or K''s Chain Drive. Will be pretty spectacular.

The only KOF-like command that is left for DMs with punch button (except Kaiser Wave's f,hcf + A/C, lol) is hcf, hcf + A/C. Which can be used for Shoryu Reppa :D

Now DMs with kick button.

6) KOF 98's Saishuu Kessen Ougi DM + SDM. A DM version will look like EX kyo's SDM and his SDM version looks like his 2003 SDM. qcf, qcf + B/D.
7) Terry Bogard's Power Gayser-like DM and Kyo KOF MI2 like SDM. qcb, hcf + B/D.
8) His father Saisyu's Tsumugari DM + SDM. qcb, qcb + B/D.
9) qcf, hcb + B/D DM + SDM. Will be based on his Koto Tsuki You move. "A" version will be a reversal while "C" version will make Kyo rush towards his opponent.

The remaining commands are  and hcb, hcb + B/D and hcf, hcf + B/D which can be used for Shinryuken :)

The reason for such variety of DMs/SDMs is, well... You can choose from any of them in different situations, they won't bore you very quickly. Besides I'll try to balance them out.

As for now he is going to have one HSDM. Which you can really call a HIDDEN SDM, because you can't just input a command with low life and pull it off. To make this HSDM you need:
1) To enter a special mode (it's like BC mode from  KOF 2002, with the difference that you need 3 power bars to activate it, it lasts longer and you can make HSDM from it :) ;
2) Less than 34% of life;
3) When the above conditions are met, a new long chain combo will be unlocked. If you'll input this combo correctly the HSDM will start (Like brutality activation in Mortal Kombat, lol). I won't tell you how it'll look like, but this is going to be a bomb :P

Any suggestions/remarks are welcome.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Lobo on July 16, 2007, 02:54:33 pm
lol so the reverse of serious kyo would be goofy kyo?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on July 16, 2007, 03:05:28 pm
Concerning the AI levels, I'd go for a config file, or different CMD files, just as Sander's characters.

I'l be definitively looking to this character, seems very good. :yes:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Chosen_01 on July 16, 2007, 03:46:46 pm
Not a bad promo. All of my favorite moves seem to be in for this version of Kyo. Lookin forward to this release. :)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 16, 2007, 04:33:43 pm
lol so the reverse of serious kyo would be goofy kyo?
--; ...  ;D
BTW, Iori is goofy by default, especially Orochi one ;D
Concerning the AI levels, I'd go for a config file, or different CMD files, just as Sander's characters.

I'l be definitively looking to this character, seems very good. :yes:
AIs will be kept in separate files, like kyo2002.ai, exkyo.ai. Do you think it's a good idea, for example, if CPU chooses 2002 pallette, he fight like 2002 Kyo using only that moves? And so on. The hardest AI will use everything in Kyo's arsenal. I'll also make that you can low down Kyo's AI during a fight by pressing start two (three, four, five, six...) times.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Chosen_01 on July 16, 2007, 05:09:40 pm
lol so the reverse of serious kyo would be goofy kyo?
--; ...  ;D
BTW, Iori is goofy by default, especially Orochi one ;D
Concerning the AI levels, I'd go for a config file, or different CMD files, just as Sander's characters.

I'l be definitively looking to this character, seems very good. :yes:
AIs will be kept in separate files, like kyo2002.ai, exkyo.ai. Do you think it's a good idea, for example, if CPU chooses 2002 pallette, he fight like 2002 Kyo using only that moves? And so on. The hardest AI will use everything in Kyo's arsenal. I'll also make that you can low down Kyo's AI during a fight by pressing start two (three, four, five, six...) times.

You could just use a variable to adjust the A.I. difficulty and put it in a seperate .def file. Another author uses this method but I can't remember who. Anyway, changing it during a fight (especially using the taunt button) shouldn't have opposite effect. IMO
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 16, 2007, 05:26:02 pm
I already had such var :)
[State -2, AI difficulty var]
type = VarSet
trigger1 = var(0) = 1
var(11) = ifelse((Palno=6||palno=12),6,ifelse((palno=5||palno=11),5,ifelse((palno=4||palno=10),4,ifelse((palno=3||palno=9),3,ifelse((palno=2||palno=8),2,1)))))

Anyway, imagine you're fighting my Kyo. You already know the behaviour of different AIs. And now you're facing the most difficult one. But you're not in the mood of breaking a sweat, you can hardly beat AI 4, not speaking of 6. That's why you just press the start button 4 times to reduce it to AI 3. Or better(!) pressing a directional button + start to define AI manually. Getting the idea?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: ahuron on July 17, 2007, 10:29:48 pm
 :yesgoi:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 18, 2007, 01:41:58 am
:yesgoi:
:suttrox:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: The Lord of the Flies on July 18, 2007, 04:38:01 am
This sounds very interesting. So many features and ideas planned. It also seems that it will be very KOF-accurate. Props on that.

I got a question. What influence will Ken's teachings have on Kyo? Will he burrow something from Ken's arsenal, have a semi-new or new move inspired on Ken? An image of Kyo doing a Shoryuu Reppa as a HSDM came to my mind  :sugoi:.

Anyways, good luck on this project.

Needs a GOATEE :mugoi:
cough*
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 18, 2007, 10:59:52 am
Thanks :) The influence of Ken will be, well, some kicking techniques (you can call them semi-new as long as my sprite edits are not so profound) as well as Shoryu Reppa and Shinryuken :) They are just DMs by the way.

@ahuron
ã
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on July 18, 2007, 11:10:19 am
Wow, I'm looking forward to Shoryureppa. How is Kyo going to pull that off without looking like an ass =p



@ahuron:
<Translate this to japanese. Thanks.>
Hey, you are teh win, please update your chars when you have time. Thx. Cya.


That's simple right?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: ^^ on July 18, 2007, 11:46:45 am
looks good so far, good luck with your kyo, I am looking forward to it ;)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 18, 2007, 01:49:56 pm
@Kei Dasshuu
OK :)

@ahuron
Kei Dasshuu ã
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 18, 2007, 07:59:41 pm
I want to ask your opinion on which voice set should I make Kyo's primary:
1) Ex Kyo;
2) Kyo XI
3) Maximum Impact 2.
http://www.4shared.com/file/20160348/3f325062/Kyo3Voice.html
Please, listen to the 3 samples inside the archive and post your opinions. Samples are edited to match animation speed (Aragami -> Kono Kizu (hit), Aragami -> Stand).
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on July 18, 2007, 11:34:14 pm
Judging only by those clips, I vote for MI2.

I also finally read the story you made up for him. I always thought Saisyu was dead since KoF95 :omg:, I remember something about Rugal reviving him so I thought that once that effect was over, he'd be dead again. Anyway, that's nice to know 'cause he's one of my favourites. :P
Kinda off-topic, I know.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: The Lord of the Flies on July 19, 2007, 12:06:21 am
I differ with PotS in that. I'd pick Ex Kyo. Because it has a more mature feel for me. And this is supposed to be a 30 year-old Kyo.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: GrapezOfWrath on July 19, 2007, 02:00:06 am
awesome :sugoi: although the juggling might get a little repetitive...unless that is the point in your char... --;  I would like to see how this turns out

Love the ground pound
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: GrapezOfWrath on July 19, 2007, 02:13:19 am
something i forgot to say regarding the voice files  :-\

id have to disagree with P.O.T.S and go with ExKyo.  Mi2 sounds to me like a disgruntled sushi chef [or disgruntled somebody] that hasn't payed thier bill on thier food and is getting kicked out of the establishment   :furious3:  haha
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on July 19, 2007, 07:10:11 am
Don't double post.

As for the voice, I'd take MI2 because EX-Kyo voice with EX-Kyo sprites is way too standard IMO. Needs to be somewhat unique. =p

But for the love of god don't use his XI voice.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 19, 2007, 01:45:28 pm
I also finally read the story you made up for him. I always thought Saisyu was dead since KoF95 :omg:, I remember something about Rugal reviving him so I thought that once that effect was over, he'd be dead again. Anyway, that's nice to know 'cause he's one of my favourites. :P
Kinda off-topic, I know.
How's he supposed to be dead? :-X KOF '98, KOF NeoWave. He's taken up the mission of coaching Shingo Yabuki  :sweatdrop: He's very alive! :buttrox:
id have to disagree with P.O.T.S and go with ExKyo.  Mi2 sounds to me like a disgruntled sushi chef [or disgruntled somebody] that hasn't payed thier bill on thier food and is getting kicked out of the establishment   :furious3:  haha
LOL :wink3:

As of now, the results of the voting on several forums are the following:
3 people for the disgruntled sushi chef ;D
2 people for the ex kyo voice;
1 man for the Kyo XI voice.

Need more votes.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Mgbenz on July 19, 2007, 01:53:23 pm
MI2 indeed. He puts more oomph to his voice.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: ^^ on July 19, 2007, 01:54:00 pm
I would vote for MI2 voice  8)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 19, 2007, 02:24:30 pm
MI2 indeed. He puts more oomph to his voice.
OOMPH! LOL!  :laugh4:

Anyway, it's already 6 people for MI2 voice agains 2 for ex kyo.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: VioFitz on July 19, 2007, 03:59:05 pm
I vote MI2 voice because all voices from MI2 sounds more clearer for me...(I like when he performing 524 Shiki Kamukura,  202 Shiki Kototsuki You, & 525 Shiki Shini.(eventhough it's sounds clear to me I still don't know what words that he said)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 19, 2007, 04:23:35 pm
I think I've heard enough :) Will be sticking to MI2 voice as his primary.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: GrapezOfWrath on July 20, 2007, 03:14:43 am
I'd take MI2 because EX-Kyo voice with EX-Kyo sprites is way too standard IMO. Needs to be somewhat unique. =p


Good point
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on July 21, 2007, 02:58:09 am
KOF '98, KOF NeoWave.
Errr... dreammacthes? Is the Orochi team still alive and well then? Rugal? You get the point. ;P
Plus I thought only Kyo trained him.

Quote
MI2 indeed. He puts more oomph to his voice.
Yeah, same reason here.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 21, 2007, 04:36:00 am
You've got it all wrong.
Quote
After Rugal captured the strongest fighters, Saisyu is ordered by Rugal to kill his own son. His friends, Benimaru Nikaido and Goro Daimon, took care of Saisyu in Kyo's stead, as he was too stunned to fight his own father. Saisyu fought, but since he was not in his right mind, he could not fight with his full power, and finally lost. Saisyu then bids Kyo to fight Rugal and destroy him before passing out. After Rugal is killed by his own power, Kyo seeks for Saisyu, only to discover that he is already gone. Saisyu had escaped, and now keeps searching the world for worthy opponents, but he knows now that the Orochi will be loose again in this world.

Many years later, in 2000, after much more turmoil (the sealing of the Orochi power, the NESTS cartel), Saisyu approached Shingo Yabuki, who had been abandoned by his master Kyo and his other friends. The legendary Saisyu offered to train Shingo and make him a great warrior known all over the world. Shingo delights in the opportunity to train with Kyo's father, and joins him on his warrior sojourns.
©Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saisyu_Kusanagi

(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/dash.gif)
I'm going to use NGBC-like dash-to-run. Though some of you may argue that it's not KOF-accurate, I assure you that it affects nothing but visuals.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on July 21, 2007, 10:41:47 am
Well I guess it isn't even hard to change it to Run-only if someone really wanted to get rid of the 'dash-run'.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 21, 2007, 11:54:29 am
Yep, just delete the dash frame and a few triggers in Statedef 100.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: ahuron on July 22, 2007, 01:06:51 am
よã
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 22, 2007, 02:00:27 am
よã
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: ahuron on July 22, 2007, 08:11:54 pm
ã
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 22, 2007, 09:58:59 pm
ã
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 22, 2007, 11:43:37 pm
I once again seek your counseling. This time I want to know your opinion on one of Kyo's moves. 212 Shiki: Kototuki You
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KTY99.gif)

As you might know this move pretty much sucked back at KOF 99. It was never used again. But as my Kyo is like a "complete Kyo" this move is included. However, I want to tune this move to the point it becomes useful  :wink3:

For you to know, this move originally has only one major advantage - it is invulnerable to low attacks while he's in the air and some time after he lands. Thus, I may suggest several options (or all of them together  :suttrox: Joke):
1) Autoguard on one frame before he jumps forwards (5 game-ticks), and 2 frames before his first attack (2 game-ticks);
2) See his arm while he's in the air? That arm could negate normal projectiles OR Kyo could avoid normal projectiles;
3) The last delayed attack could be unblockable.

This character isn't supposed to be cheap. But he isn't supposed to have useless moves. 212 Shiki: Kototuki You in its strong version is pretty much useless in original. I position my Kyo as sub-boss character.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on July 23, 2007, 02:58:32 am
As you might know this move pretty much sucked back at KOF 99. It was never used again. However, I want to tune this move to the point it becomes useful  :wink3:
Didn't suck IMO, and it basically just received a different animation in the next games (several other tweaks as well yeah, but the basics were kept). It's nice that you're using, it's actually one of his coolest specials IMO.
Btw, planning to somehow use any of his other hcb+k moves?

Quote
1) Autoguard on one frame before he jumps forwards (5 game-ticks), and 2 frames before his first attack (2 game-ticks);
Both options are either too early or too late into the move to be useful/fair IMO. For the dash version you posted, I mean, the short range version could have it.

Quote
2) See his arm while he's in the air? That arm could negate normal projectiles OR Kyo could avoid normal projectiles;
No. :o Isn't it enough that it can jump over floor projectiles?

Quote
3) The last delayed attack could be unblockable.
Sounds good.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 23, 2007, 04:51:56 am
Didn't suck IMO, and it basically just received a different animation in the next games (several other tweaks as well yeah, but the basics were kept).
Which move do you mean? hcb + K ( which is called 427 Shiki: Hikigane and is a completely different move) from KOF 2000-2002 or hcb+K from 96-98 (which has the same name but a completely different move too)? Anyway, I agree with you that this special looks very cool. :sugoi:
Btw, planning to somehow use any of his other hcb+k moves?
Well, yes. Actually, the move above is HCF + Strong Punch in my Kyo. As for commands with kick I am not sure whether it will dissapoint you or make you glad, but he has a lot. And here's the list:

1) 75 Shiki: Kai - qcf + K
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/Kai.gif)
Has two version. Weak version knocks down only after second hit and has less juggle ability. His main juggle combo starter. Well, you know it, you love it :)

2) 427 Shiki: Hikigane - qcb + Weak Kick
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/Hikigane1.gif)
Sends opponent flying in the air. Immune to low attacks for some time. SCancelable. Used in chain combo qcf + Weak Punch, qcf + WP, qcb + WK (slower version of hikigane will come out. You cannot land the first hit normally, you'll have to juggle your opponent for it to land).

427 Shiki: Hikigane - qcb + Strong Kick
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/Hikigane2.gif)
Invincible to high attacks at the beginning. This move has variations. If you hold strong kick button the whole time before the attack comes out, this move will hit 2 times with a base of 200 damage. However only the second attack will cause hard knockdown. It you do no hold SK button Kyo will hit only once but this hit causes hard knockdown. This move has Counter Wire properties. Used in this chain combo with altered properties:
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/cm1.gif)

3) 212 Shiki: Koto Tsuki You - hcb + WK
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KT1.gif)
A reversal move. It can reverse high normal and special attacks. The move followed by it is a grab and explode, which is SCancelable into Orochinagi (used MI2 as reference for that).

212 Shiki: Koto Tsuki You - hcb + SK
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KT2.gif)
Strong version of this move is its classical version. During run and attack Kyo is invincible to low attacks (that attack very low, like Kyo's own low light kick). Kyo says: "Makka ni moero!", which means: "Burn in deep red (flames)!". Explode is SCancelable into Orochinagi.

4) Nata Otoshi Geri - hcf + WK, qcf + WK/SK, qcf + WK/SK
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/nog.gif)
One of the moves that Kyo has learned under Ken's coaching and one of Ken's own chain moves. First attack of the chain hits two times (one with his knee and another with his leg straightened out). Second attack causes knockdown, hits opponent in the air and is SCancelabe. Third attack causes hard knockdown and smashes opponent against the ground. :buttrox:

Osoto Mawashi Geri - hcf + SK, qcf + WK/SK, qcf + WK/SK
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/omg.gif)
Another move taught by Ken. The first attack causes hard knock down, can be followed up with a series of air kicks. Inspired by Hwoarang from Tekken :)
Well, this move is only under development. Because the first move is my sprite edit and it looks bad :( This is almost as long as I can get. I would appreciate any help with sprite editing!

5) 707 Shiki: R.E.D. Kick - rdp (reverse dragon punch - b, d, db) + WK
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/RED1.gif)
Hard knockdown on the opponent.
And his SP version:
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/RED2.gif)

Kyo also has Kuchuu R.E.D. kick, an aerial version from KOF XI. Aerial R.E.D. kick has longer recovery time.

6) 101 Shiki: Oboro Guruma - dp + WK
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/Oboro1.gif)
This one is a visiting card move of classic Kyo. This move causes hard knockdown.
The sprites you see are Kaddet's spritework. This guy made sprite edits for Sander71113's NeoKyo. I contacted Sander and asked his permission to use his sprites but he said that I should ask Kaddet himself. I still cannot contact him (e-mailed Orochi Herman also and didn't get an answer). All help contacting Kaddet will be greatly appreciated. Aside this, this and the following moves are completely done.

101 Shiki: Oboro Guruma - dp + SK
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/Oboro2.gif)
No comments. Spectacular triple kick attack in the air.
;---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, that's about to end his specials with kick button. Await the description for other moves next time.

Quote
3) The last delayed attack could be unblockable.
Sounds good.
Hmm. Good to know that you think so.

P.S. When this character is released he'll be a free-source. Except for stuff which wasn't made by me and you'll have to ask permission on it yourself. The list of such stuff is rather small, mind you.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on July 23, 2007, 05:30:43 am
What move do you mean? hcb + K ( which is called 427 Shiki: Hikigane and i completely different move) from KOF 2000-2002 or hcb+K from 96-98 (which has the same name but a completely different move to me too)?
The later one, not the classic.

Quote
3) 212 Shiki: Koto Tsuki You - hcb + WK
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KT1.gif (http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KT1.gif)
A reversal move. It can reverse high normal and special attacks. The followed move is grab and explode, which is SCancelable into Orochinagi (used MI2 as reference for that).

212 Shiki: Koto Tsuki You - hcb + SK
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KT2.gif (http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KT2.gif)
Strong version of this move is its classical version. During run and attack he is invincible to low pokes (kicks mostly). Kyo says: "Makka ni moero!", which means "Burn in deep red (flames)!". Explode is SCancelable into Orochinagi.
Not sure about turning the weak one into a reversal, his movelist is so huge already that adding such extra functions to existing moves could just confuse the player, making it hard to choose what to use when.

Quote
Hmm. Good to know that you think so.
Oh, I just thought of something that could work as well: causing Guard Break.

Another suggestion, how about cancelling Orochi Nagi's charging animation into a taunt like in MI2? That was cool and doesn't need sprite edits.

Edit: Crap, this topic is making me so wanting to resume Kasumi... :bigcry:, just need to finish a certain other loli first. ;P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 23, 2007, 06:02:38 am
Not sure about turning the weak one into a reversal, his movelist is so huge already that adding such extra functions to existing moves could just confuse the player, making it hard to choose what to use when.
Can be true, but think about this: Serious Kyo is a new character :) And what should you do with a new character first? Right, study it. Learn how to play him. I never promised this Kyo will be a direct copy of one Kyo. Believe me, I've been playing my own Kyo for DAYS and I may say that there's nothing confusing in Koto Tsuki You reversal. And what's the use of just another KTY with the only difference that Kyo starts running 3 frames earlier and runs for less distance? Besides, the reversal is not cheap. The reversal frames last for 12 ticks (starting at 5th tick, so light punch will defeat the move if started at the same time), with 24 ticks of recovery. Everything's calculated and looks beautiful :)
Quote
Oh, I just thought of something that could work as well: causing Guard Break.
Great idea!!! Will do.
Quote
Another suggestion, how about cancelling Orochi Nagi's charging animation into a taunt like in MI2? That was cool and doesn't need sprite edits.
Another great idea :) Will be done.
Quote
Edit: Crap, this topic is making me so wanting to resume Kasumi... :bigcry:, just need to finish a certain other loli first. ;P
:kugoi:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on July 23, 2007, 06:36:42 am
Wow, no comment man. I'm simply amazed. Kyo will have all his specials from the previous KOFs? Really? Z-o-m-g.

I can't really imagine what combos this guy would be able to pull off once he is complete, imagine the possibilities!  :sugoi:

BTW, Koto Tsuki You s-cancellable to Orochinagi? Holy what? Are you sure MI is a valid point of reference in this situation? :p Fortunately your Kyo will have XI's scaling.

I don't know if Kyo ever had this, but maybe give S.Kyo's Oniyaki some autoguard frames on start-up (reminds me of Kusanagi in 2k3). If he already does, my bad.

Maybe you should nerf Shiki Kai a little and remove Aragami's awesome autoguard start-up to make him a bit more balanced. Aragami was way too good in XI, IMO. It didn't feel right.

Good luck with the rest, Elix.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 23, 2007, 06:55:16 am
I don't know if Kyo ever had this, but maybe give S.Kyo's Oniyaki some autoguard frames on start-up (reminds me of Kusanagi in 2k3). If he already does, my bad.
Yeah, he also has Kusanagi's autoguard
Maybe you should nerf Shiki Kai a little
How's that? o_O
and remove Aragami's awesome autoguard start-up to make him a bit more balanced. Aragami was way too good in XI, IMO. It didn't feel right.
no wai XD
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on July 23, 2007, 08:56:00 am
3) The last delayed attack could be unblockable.
I like this one. Causing guard break is a good idea too. Maybe guard break OR unblockable depending on the time you delay it.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 23, 2007, 09:27:25 am
3) The last delayed attack could be unblockable.
I like this one. Causing guard break is a good idea too. Maybe guard break OR unblockable depending on the time you delay it.
He is already powerful enough, if not overpowered :-X So I will stick to Guard Break idea. On this occasion, it's decided, thanks to P.o.t.S.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 23, 2007, 10:02:48 am
First off, I gotta say this character looks promising.


Secondly, I don't think adding guard break would be a good idea... It's a bit cheap and somewhat unbalanced since not all characters have it.



Just my two cents though.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 23, 2007, 10:31:46 am
It's a bit cheap and somewhat unbalanced since not all characters have it.
This is a very naive statement. In KOF, not all characters have special throws, like grapplers. Is this a bit cheap for you also? If so, I'm afraid there's even no point in arguing. Not speaking that this is MUGEN and Serious Kyo is tuned up Kyo by definition (read first post). But I think I'll make an accurate Ex Kyo right after Serious Kyo. It will be too easy, I'll just modify his .cns and .cmd and voila.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 23, 2007, 10:35:40 am
Special throws have nothing to do with that.

I wasn't trying to start an argument, I was stating my opinion on the matter, which I meant no offense by.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on July 23, 2007, 10:40:42 am
Quote
But I think I'll make an accurate Ex Kyo right after Serious Kyo. It will be too easy, I'll just modify his .cns and .cmd and voila.
People could just do that themselves though ... maybe you could make a patch for Serious Kyo where he is EX Kyo with some extra DMs.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 23, 2007, 11:01:17 am
Special throws have nothing to do with that.
Well, I think the following example will be more consecutive. Imagine I was making Ralf. He has an unguardable as you know. And now apply your sentence: "It's a bit cheap and somewhat unbalanced since not all characters have it". You may keep to your opinion but I cannot consider this an argument :)
People could just do that themselves though ... maybe you could make a patch for Serious Kyo where he is EX Kyo with some extra DMs.
Leave it to people? ??? What people? Just random people not knowing nothing of Mugen coding? No, I guess I'll make him a seperate character, which will be the exact copy of EX kyo from KOF XI.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Vans on July 23, 2007, 11:03:31 am
It's not cheap because it's a throw. It IS however, if you don't add the correct triggers to it.

But i don't really see it related to Guard Crush, which is something that all KOF characters have in their respective game.

What he meant was for example, your Kyo fighting a character without the guard crush system. That character is able to break your guard while you are not able to break his, that makes the game unbalanced because the opponent has an unfair advantage.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on July 23, 2007, 11:05:46 am
People could just do that themselves though ... maybe you could make a patch for Serious Kyo where he is EX Kyo with some extra DMs.
Leave it to people? ??? What people? Just random people not knowing nothing of Mugen coding? No, I guess I'll make him a seperate character, which will be the exact copy of EX kyo from KOF XI.
Actually I was referring to people of the MUGEN community. I guess it was a bad call though, I apologize.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 23, 2007, 11:12:59 am
I guess it was a bad call though, I apologize.
You don't need to :)

What he meant was for example, your Kyo fighting a character without the guard crush system. That character is able to break your guard while you are not able to break his, that makes the game unbalanced because the opponent has an unfair advantage.
That is not what he meant. He clearly told that it would be cheap if my character could break the guard, not otherwise. Anyway... Guys, I know you're friends and always help each other, but please, cope with the fact that this character might not follow your tastes. That's also one of the reasons why I'll make a copy of KOF XI Kyo.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 23, 2007, 03:36:05 pm
Actually that is what I meant seeing as we were discussing this on MSN.



Basically, if you make it so his guard can be broken as well, then that should be fine as it balances things out.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 23, 2007, 04:10:24 pm
Basically, if you make it so his guard can be broken as well, then that should be fine as it balances things out.
That's why I said you didn't read my first post. I wrote there that KOF XI guard crush is in use :P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 23, 2007, 04:14:41 pm
Yes, but it was pretty vague. Didn't really say you could do it both to the opponent and the opponent could do it to you.




I trust you know what you're doing now, though. ;P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Vans on July 23, 2007, 07:15:21 pm
That is not what he meant. He clearly told that it would be cheap if my character could break the guard, not otherwise. Anyway... Guys, I know you're friends and always help each other, but please, cope with the fact that this character might not follow your tastes. That's also one of the reasons why I'll make a copy of KOF XI Kyo.

I was merely trying to clarify his post a bit, and he was just stating an opinion on a certain matter. No need to react that way.   :P

As for Kyo, really looking forward to him. You are doing a good job.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 24, 2007, 02:18:17 pm
Thank you, I'll try not to spoil him :)
Updated Nata Otochi Geri & Osoto Mawashi Geri. Cosmetic changes to CLSNs and animation axises. Do they look smooth?
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/NOG.gif)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/OMG.gif)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on July 24, 2007, 02:32:54 pm
The first one is perfect.
The second one has a strange pause when preparing the second bunch of kicks, but I guess it should be okay in game, to show the power of the move. :yes:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on July 24, 2007, 03:24:42 pm
Something is bugging me with Osoto Mawashi Geri, I don't know what is it. I think it's just the second set of kicks seem sort of unnaturally fast.

But yeah, nothing big. Looks great.  8)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 24, 2007, 04:44:45 pm
Changed axises (for the last time, I think) and animation times again.
The old:(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/OMGold.gif)

The new: (http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/OMG.gif)

BTW, you can combo Nata Otoshi Geri, but you can't combo OMG :) Roundhouse (osoto mawashi) kick causes hard knockdown and sets opponent spinning in midair, for two next hits to land. And the last two moves are supposed to be consecutive in the meaning that the last hit won't probably hit if the first missed, and otherwise. That's why the delay between 1st and 2nd attack is little.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 24, 2007, 10:44:25 pm
Looks a bit misaligned for some reason.


You know you can align using his 2k2 spriteset, right? Rip all anims from an older KoF episode (in this case, 2k2) at a single position and then use that axis as a guide using Onionskin.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 25, 2007, 12:59:12 am
Ummm... Thank you, but my animations on the previous page wouldn't look so smooth if I didn't know and make this before :P My eyes tell me that right now the axises of these animations are correct. You know, in KOF many animations "slide" just like that to the zero position, relying on PosAdds. BTW, there are no such animations as OMG in KOF, so I had to use some laws, principles of KOF axising, like that the head in air animations must be on the same height.

Did I forget to say that he's going to have a super cancel bar, like in KOF XI? This is to limit his super cancels and to balance him. I don't recall anyone did this earlier. --;

Oh, and one more idea. I really want to make Saisyu Kusanagi and Shingo Yabuki as spectators and as strikers for him ::) They will be watching Kyo from the beginning of his fight, behaving themselves like in KOF 98. Sometimes saying some comments. ;D And when player presses A+D or B+C one of them jumps out of screen in the backgroung and jumps in the foreground, doing an attack or something else (Shingo...  :lugoi: ). Kyo will play his member change animation from KOF XI ("Tanomu daze!"). I'll try to make Saisyu and Shingo as interactive and interesting as possible, implementing them in Kyo's intros/outros, giving them around 300 life as they could die in a match if being beaten too much...

Well, that's it for now.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 25, 2007, 01:12:33 am
Quote
Did I forget to say that he's going to have a super cancel bar, like in KOF XI? This is to limit his super cancels and to balance him. I don't recall anyone did this earlier.

Vans
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 25, 2007, 01:23:17 am
Vans
Where? :D
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 25, 2007, 01:24:11 am
Here. (http://www.trinitymugen.net)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 25, 2007, 01:41:19 am
The site is down, so I'll check it later. What exactly did he make? A char or something else, like KOF XI screenpack?

And, well... I guess I can't keep secrets for long so I'll give away my concepts on them :sugoi:

They will have several attacks each. Saisyu, as he is more experienced, will use his attack based on the circumstances.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/o01.gif)

Shingo's attacks will be random (but more powerful/useful. Remember him holding opponent's legs? XD) and sometimes they will be feint attacks at which you can only LOL at :sugoi:
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/a11.gif)

Just felt writing it.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 25, 2007, 01:49:35 am
XI lifebars, a Saisyu (down), Terry (down), and Shen. XI lifebars are on the forums.


Site should be up now... It is for me.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 25, 2007, 03:00:40 am
Wow, that Shen needs some serious feedback. Does Vans still need one?

OK, I'm revealing one more secret. Kyo has 4 taunts, one of them is an delayed attack. I was inspired by Oswald, looking how his delayed card attack f + A enables him to mind play.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/FlameTaunt.gif)
Here's some properties:
1) MoveType = A;
2) Only 2 attack frames, 4 game ticks;
3) 10,5 damage;
4) Normal Projectile; Priority = 1, Hit;
5) Hittime = 18 (strong attack, taking in mind taunt's recover time);
6) Can repeat the flame taunt only after ~1 second;
As you can see I tried to balance this out.

 This will add to my Kyo some more mind play.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 25, 2007, 03:07:56 am
He's happy with any feedback he gets. PM him with it.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: kaddet on July 25, 2007, 07:05:49 am
Wow, that Shen needs some serious feedback. Does Vans still need one?

OK, I'm revealing one more secret. Kyo has 4 taunts, one of them is an delayed attack. I was inspired by Oswald, looking how his delayed card attack f + A enables him to mind play.
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/FlameTaunt.gif (http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/FlameTaunt.gif)
Here's some properties:
1) MoveType = A;
2) Only 2 attack frames, 4 game ticks;
3) 10,5 damage;
4) Normal Projectile; Priority = 1, Hit;
5) Hittime = 18 (strong attack, taking in mind taunt's recover time);
6) Can repeat the flame taunt only after ~1 second;
As you can see I tried to balance this out.

 This will add to my Kyo some more mind play.

Mmm... I see some familiar thing... XD hehe
Nice project man... keep up the good work ;)
Regards

kaddet.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on July 25, 2007, 08:07:42 am
Interesting.

Hmm, so you're saying S.Kyo will have Strikers/Assist? What did you mean when you said ...
Quote
They will have several attacks each.

Sorry, just a bit confused.




I wish Vans put his Terry back up =|
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 25, 2007, 12:26:07 pm
Mmm... I see some familiar thing... XD hehe
Nice project man... keep up the good work ;)
Regards

kaddet.
Thanks :)
Hmm, so you're saying S.Kyo will have Strikers/Assist? What did you mean when you said ...
Quote
They will have several attacks each.
Sorry, just a bit confused.
Strikers usually have only one attack. My Saisyu and Shingo will have several attacks both. They will perform one attack at a time, if you meant to ask that.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on July 26, 2007, 04:24:49 am
Did I forget to say that he's going to have a super cancel bar, like in KOF XI? This is to limit his super cancels and to balance him. I don't recall anyone did this earlier. --;
I think I've already mentioned this before, but the cancel bar doesn't make that much difference in a single fight, 'cause by the time you get the power to do those moves the skill bar will be already waiting for you. Or at least so far I never had to worry about it outside team play in XI.

Quote
Oh, and one more idea. I really want to make Saisyu Kusanagi and Shingo Yabuki as spectators and as strikers for him ::)
Approved. 8) Just make it so that they're not there if another player is using them already, plus calling them could spend power or be limited to a certain number of times to balance it out.

Quote
Sometimes saying some comments. ;D
Requesting Shingo's girlish "Kusanagi-saaaaaaaan!!!" scream when Kyo wins. Or wherever you like as long as it's there. ;P

Quote
As you can see I tried to balance this out.
How's the startup time? 'Cause no matter how you look at it, it's still a projectile capable of hitting people out of supers and such.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 26, 2007, 07:23:11 am
I think I've already mentioned this before, but the cancel bar doesn't make that much difference in a single fight, 'cause by the time you get the power to do those moves the skill bar will be already waiting for you. Or at least so far I never had to worry about it outside team play in XI.
It will matter when you'll face Kyo's AI I guess ;)
Approved. 8) Just make it so that they're not there if another player is using them already, plus calling them could spend power or be limited to a certain number of times to balance it out.
Hmm, I wanted to disable this feature in Simul mode if two Serious Kyos are in one team, but you say I should disable if there's even more that one Kyo in the match?
Requesting Shingo's girlish "Kusanagi-saaaaaaaan!!!" scream when Kyo wins. Or wherever you like as long as it's there. ;P
Man, that was my own idea you've guessed. ;P
How's the startup time? 'Cause no matter how you look at it, it's still a projectile capable of hitting people out of supers and such.
The projectile come out on the 34-th game tick. You can see the animation above.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on July 26, 2007, 07:55:19 am
Quote
Hmm, I wanted to disable this feature in Simul mode if two Serious Kyos are in one team, but you say I should disable if there's even more that one Kyo in the match?
I think he rather meant to disable Shingo and/or Saisyu if you're fighting them. If you're fighting Ironmugen's or Vans' Saisyu for example, you wouldn't be able to call Saisyu as a helper with your Kyo.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 26, 2007, 08:39:24 am
I think he rather meant to disable Shingo and/or Saisyu if you're fighting them. If you're fighting Ironmugen's or Vans' Saisyu for example, you wouldn't be able to call Saisyu as a helper with your Kyo.
Oh, that! Yeah, will do.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 27, 2007, 10:40:09 pm
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KYOWINS.png)[size=42pt] AT LIFE[/size]
:lugoi2:
I want to make this message appear overriding the win message of a screenpack, is there a way to do this? Oh, and I want to use female announcer from KOF 98. She sais: "Kyo wins!". :) This will give more KOF XI feel to it since it's quite similar to the voice of the female announcer in KOF XI.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: rednavi -RETIRED on July 27, 2007, 10:53:21 pm
a winquote :P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 27, 2007, 11:21:59 pm
a winquote :P
"A winquote" what?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 28, 2007, 12:24:33 am
You can code a custom winquote, like The_None's Shaq has as well as Eli's characters.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 28, 2007, 12:34:20 am
Thanks for the info. By the way, what announcer would you like to hear? If any.
http://www.4shared.com/file/20809769/a84d4148/WinnerKyo.html
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on July 28, 2007, 04:22:54 pm
Better yet, just look at Fervicante's XI characters like Elisabeth for the winquote thing. The BGM for the win screen is easily found at gh.ffshrine.org as well.

If you go for announcers, definitely the default female KOFXI one since S.Kyo is supposed to be as accurate as you can make it, right?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: rednavi -RETIRED on July 28, 2007, 06:07:13 pm
better yet, I can give you my winquote coding I made for CVSW :P, so no one will think you stole someone else's code  ::)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 28, 2007, 07:17:29 pm
better yet, I can give you my winquote coding I made for CVSW :P, so no one will think you stole someone else's code  ::)
Oh, I gladly accept your proposal :)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: rednavi -RETIRED on July 28, 2007, 10:41:59 pm
meh, I have a better idea, gimme some minutes and I will post the code in the code archieve so everybody can use it  ;P

Done  8)

http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=60573.msg500527;topicseen#msg500527
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 28, 2007, 11:51:45 pm
This is good but you didn't get my idea from the very beginning :)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KYOWINS.png)[size=42pt] AT LIFE[/size]
:lugoi2:
I want to make this message appear overriding the win message of a screenpack
Apparently, I was speaking about overriding the standard <"name" wins> message that every screenpack has. This should happen every round and winquote is something that appear at the end of the battle. Meh, I already had winquote screen in this case. But I will use some ideas (PalFX) from your code. So thanks, your efforts were not in vain.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: rednavi -RETIRED on July 28, 2007, 11:53:49 pm
then use an explod with triggers "= win" and "= roundstate = 4" to do that  :sugoi:

or instead of "= win" use his set of winpose states, something like "= stateno = 800"

and remember to include a "!numexplod(xxx)" trigger to not to have like 900 explods appearing and crashing your PC :P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 29, 2007, 01:44:48 am
Actually, I don't have problems with triggering --; Instead, do you know how to make the screenpack's win message not appear?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: rednavi -RETIRED on July 29, 2007, 04:35:28 am
that's not possible  o_O

[size=2pt]the only thing you can "null is his name by not giving him a name at all :P[/size]
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: ilma on July 29, 2007, 05:16:15 am
There is Orochi Kyo by HiroHiro Wintext after he wins!
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: rednavi -RETIRED on July 29, 2007, 05:17:37 am
There is Orochi Kyo by HiroHiro Wintext after he wins!

so?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on July 29, 2007, 09:37:07 am
that's not possible  o_O
the only thing you can "null is his name by not giving him a name at all :P
That's the answer I anticipated from the start.

Special for P.o.t.S.!!!
http://www.4shared.com/file/20908313/7330228d/Kusanagi-san.html
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on August 01, 2007, 12:07:27 am
for P.o.t.S.!!!
http://www.4shared.com/file/20908313/7330228d/Kusanagi-san.html
:bigcry: + :sugoi:
Btw, voices don't need to be in stereo, it'll only make them take up twice as much space in the snd file.

About the whole "Kyo wins" message, won't that look weird for people already using a KoF screenpack (which is a lot)? Maybe you could make it optional.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 01, 2007, 01:25:45 am
Btw, voices don't need to be in stereo, it'll only make them take up twice as much space in the snd file.
Yep.
About the whole "Kyo wins" message, won't that look weird for people already using a KoF screenpack (which is a lot)? Maybe you could make it optional.
I doubt there's a "winner is Kyo" sound message in any screenpack, but yeah... Since I cannot fully override screenpack's stuff I guess I should make this feature optional.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 04, 2007, 03:51:02 pm
About PalFX. Effects of being hit by fire. I am no close to the original but it seems to be impossible to make like in the original:
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFXOriginal.gif)

I have two versions though. (Third one is Sander's)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFX1.gif)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFX2.gif)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFXSander.gif)

Which one is better in your opinion? Or if you can suggest a better version, you are very welcome!
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: rednavi -RETIRED on August 04, 2007, 03:55:53 pm
If you want to get closer to the kof version use a palfx with invert = 1

oh, and u can find accurrate kof palfx at sander's site
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 04, 2007, 04:36:23 pm
If you want to get closer to the kof version use a palfx with invert = 1

oh, and u can find accurrate kof palfx at sander's site
They are far from KOF-accurate :P
And as you can see, KOF's color inverting is of completely different nature than MUGEN's. I might as well say that the second version above looks closer to the original.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: rednavi -RETIRED on August 04, 2007, 04:38:52 pm
If u really want that effect (which mixes normal and inverlt pal) then you will have to give to the enemy 2 or more palfx during the same state :P (maybe using a var to save time and space)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 04, 2007, 05:02:43 pm
Added Sander's version for you to see how accurate it is :)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFXSander.gif)
If u really want that effect (which mixes normal and inverlt pal) then you will have to give to the enemy 2 or more palfx during the same state :P (maybe using a var to save time and space)
Basically it's impossible to do this in MUGEN with PalFX controller since the colors of the upper part of the body stays uninverted while lower part is inverted and vice versa. And mixing two PalFX is very... difficult. And to use  PalFX controller my opponent has to be in a custom state, you suggest making custom states for all fire hits? (And what about hitOverride characters?)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on August 04, 2007, 06:33:57 pm
The last one looks closest to KoF.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 04, 2007, 09:03:06 pm
The last one looks closest to KoF.
That... is not true. Objectively. The difference between 1st and 3rd versions is only in color, and Sander's version is way too dark. Photoshop can prove it.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Lasombra Demon on August 04, 2007, 09:17:53 pm
I liked the 2nd one.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on August 04, 2007, 09:21:31 pm
The last one looks closest to KoF.
That... is not true. Objectively. The difference between 1st and 3rd versions is only in color, and Sander's version is way too dark. Photoshop can prove it.

DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS. Gah what I meant to say is that's the one I thought looked best. Though now that I think about it, it does look too dark.


What Rednavi said is right. Try playing with the invert palfx a bit and you MIGHT be able to get it.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on August 04, 2007, 09:22:47 pm
Me too, I prefer the second one.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: shin. [OFWGKTA] on August 04, 2007, 09:25:27 pm
Second one looks the most fluid/nescessary colors compared to the others. Though the third one might work as well. Either way, messing with invert palfx might be a better way to go.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on August 04, 2007, 09:44:11 pm
My favourite is the second one, but I suppose the first one is the closest to KoF.

And yeah, totally unpossible to make KoF PalFX in Mugen 'cause they use some kind of palette cycling (like Gill or Orochi's shinyness) rather than the palfx we have.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: hjk on August 04, 2007, 09:50:10 pm
About PalFX. Effects of being hit by fire. I am no close to the original but it seems to be impossible to make like in the original:
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFXOriginal.gif)

I have two versions though. (Third one is Sander's)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFX1.gif)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFX2.gif)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFXSander.gif)

Which one is better in your opinion? Or if you can suggest a better version, you are very welcome!


All Four Look Superb :yes:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on August 04, 2007, 09:54:39 pm
The first is from KoF and according to what PotS says cannot be accurately recreated in MUGEN. --;
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 04, 2007, 11:18:07 pm
The first is from KoF and according to what PotS says cannot be accurately recreated in MUGEN. --;
So, I wasn't very convincing saying the same thing? :)

Thanks, guys, for your replies. I'll reveal the truth now, or rather, name things by its' right names.
The first PalFX is @ndroide's version. He shared this PalFX as an open source. (You may find his topic on this forum)
The second version, which many of you (as well as me) liked, is KOFZ' version. I got the code from Misamu personally.
The third version is Sander's.

I've spent some more time as you suggested to actually make up something new. Put more effort and brainz into it :sugoi: And here're 3 new version. My versions this time.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFX3.gif)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFX4.gif)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFX5.gif)

The difference between first and other two is that the last ones have larger amplitude towards white and it is slower. The third one is just the second without invertall. What do you say?

P.S. Made first version larger by mistake, sorry.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: ziltama on August 04, 2007, 11:24:56 pm
I think the original neo-geo flame fx in KOF look terrible.   Trying to match CvS2's or Garou's flame fx would look nicer.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 04, 2007, 11:26:56 pm
I think the original neo-geo flame fx in KOF look terrible.   Trying to match CvS2's or Garou's flame fx would look nicer.
Care to give examples? For CvS2 at least, I can check Garou myself. Though I don't remember red-fire-users there. Hmmmm...
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: ziltama on August 04, 2007, 11:41:18 pm
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/news/01/16/capcom/xbox/xcapcomvssnk2eolive_screen025.jpg
Not the best example, but you need to see it in action.  The palette has a dull red scheme while the fire animates.  Warusaki replicates the effect OK in his characters.

As for Garou, some of the fire supers light people on fire.

The KOF palfx looked OK in the earlier KOF's with the explosion FX, but then looked rather lame without them in the later KOF's.  One can easily re-add the explosions in mugen, but as you can see with the recent example of Kyo 2007, one can go overboard and see nothing but explosion fx.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on August 05, 2007, 12:14:46 am
I think the original neo-geo flame fx in KOF look terrible.   Trying to match CvS2's or Garou's flame fx would look nicer.
Care to give examples? For CvS2 at least, I can check Garou myself. Though I don't remember red-fire-users there. Hmmmm...

One of Kim's sons, I believe, did.

http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2003/news/01/16/capcom/xbox/xcapcomvssnk2eolive_screen025.jpg
Not the best example, but you need to see it in action.  The palette has a dull red scheme while the fire animates.  Warusaki replicates the effect OK in his characters.

As for Garou, some of the fire supers light people on fire.

The KOF palfx looked OK in the earlier KOF's with the explosion FX, but then looked rather lame without them in the later KOF's.  One can easily re-add the explosions in mugen, but as you can see with the recent example of Kyo 2007, one can go overboard and see nothing but explosion fx.

Too bad the opponent's in Rage mode in that pic, which in CvS2 overrides the palFX that would otherwise be applied to him at the moment. :sadgoi:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Rote Zaungast on August 05, 2007, 01:09:02 am
The first is from KoF and according to what PotS says cannot be accurately recreated in MUGEN. --;
So, I wasn't very convincing saying the same thing? :)

Thanks, guys, for your replies. I'll reveal the truth now, or rather, name things by its' right names.
The first PalFX is @ndroide's version. He shared this PalFX as an open source. (You may find his topic on this forum)
The second version, which many of you (as well as me) liked, is KOFZ' version. I got the code from Misamu personally.
The third version is Sander's.

I've spent some more time as you suggested to actually make up something new. Put more effort and brainz into it :sugoi: And here're 3 new version. My versions this time.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFX3.gif)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFX4.gif)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/PalFX5.gif)

The difference between first and other two is that the last ones have larger amplitude towards white and it is slower. The third one is just the second without invertall. What do you say?

P.S. Made first version larger by mistake, sorry.
I think the second is much better and fits pretty well because it's slow like the one of KOF and it makes the opponent look covered by fire much
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on August 05, 2007, 06:40:36 am
I'd say go for the 2nd one.

Don't choose one that doesn't even have invertall. It won't look right at all.

If you are going to add explosion FX (like Sander's Kyo, Nao&M's K', etc) then I'd say don't worry too much about the whole burning effect since it won't stand out most of the time anyway. I'd still choose the 2nd one though.

BTW JZ was talking to the other guy, not you. =p
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 05, 2007, 02:15:24 pm
To satisfy all tastes I'm going to make first 6 palettes with invertall effect and other 6 without. I'm going to use my second PalFX and KOFZ' one.

Now, as for palettes, each of Serious Kyo's palettes will have not only different colors of the body but flames will be different too. Right now I am going to make an additional Iori Yagami palette, Ash Crimson, Rock Howard, Igniz, black&white + some more.

I think I made Ash Crimson palette fine.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/Ash.png)

But as for Iori, I'm not sure what color I should use for jacket. Help, please. You may choose up to two colors.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/IoriPal.gif)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on August 05, 2007, 02:22:29 pm
1 for sure. Then, maybe 2 or 6, dunno.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on August 05, 2007, 02:26:17 pm
1 then ... any but not 4.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Lasombra Demon on August 05, 2007, 02:36:16 pm
5
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: kyo kusanagi 12 on August 05, 2007, 10:08:42 pm
1
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 05, 2007, 11:12:27 pm
First. It's decided.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Tayobktailz on August 08, 2007, 01:03:08 am
1 then ... any but not 4.

i second that K. :)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Rote Zaungast on August 08, 2007, 03:24:05 am
I'll go for the violet (5) , and if only the black color wasn't the same for all body parts (shoes,gloves), then I would tell you to replace the black color of the upper part by white to look more like iori, AMIRITE ? and is it possible to give him red hair ?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 08, 2007, 08:14:30 am
[quote author=å½¢ã
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Rote Zaungast on August 08, 2007, 05:24:36 pm
this is why I asked if it was at least possible to make a red hair palette, since it has shared colors with the shoes, because it would be a Titan work to separate colors for all of his sprites  :(
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 08, 2007, 08:09:37 pm
[quote author=å½¢ã
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 09, 2007, 01:54:15 am
Argh! I am being torn apart by KOF XI accuracy and MUGEN compatibility!
On the one hand, to reach accurate KOF XI behavior when you hit your opponent I should use custom states for moves. Well, take the simpliest example: every character has different stand/crouch.friction values so they would be pushed away by the move futher/closer than in KOF XI.
On the other hand, using TargetState for even one attack will potentially cause errors because of HitOverride controllers used in other characters. And using custom states for all moves will prove my character being broken. :( I need some advice from experienced guys.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on August 09, 2007, 04:11:43 am
Well, take the simpliest example: every character has different stand/crouch.friction values so they would be pushed away by the move futher/closer than in KOF XI.
Not every char.:innocent: You should just calculate the hitvels having the standard .85 standing friction in mind, the difference in distance travelled by standing or crouching opponents shouldn't be enough to hurt the gameplay. And even if it did, it's something that affects all attacking chars in Mugen and not just yours.

Quote
On the other hand, using TargetState for even one attack will potentially cause errors because of HitOverride controllers used in other characters. And using custom states for all moves will prove my character being broken. :( I need some advice from experienced guys.
With MvC Shin Gouki I was using TargetState for all attacks along with proper HitDefs that could "live" without it, so if the char could be manipulated with TargetState, fine, he'd be sent to the "MvC Simulator" (;P), if not no big deal 'cause the hits still behaved mostly as they should and those chars are a minory anyway. And IIRC TargetState and HitOverride don't clash and cause any errors, as HitOverride takes priority (since it prevents the char from becoming a "target" in the first place).

But using custom states for the MvC insane hits is one thing, for KoF you don't need to go that far just because of a small difference in friction, IMO.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 09, 2007, 04:22:01 am
Not every char.:innocent: You should just calculate the hitvels having the standard .85 standing friction in mind, the difference in distance travelled by standing or crouching opponents shouldn't be enough to hurt the gameplay. And even if it did, it's something that affects all attacking chars in Mugen and not just yours.
This is a very good idea, about manipulating with standard .85 friction. Thanks :)
With MvC Shin Gouki I was using TargetState for all attacks along with proper HitDefs that could "live" without it, so if the char could be manipulated with TargetState, fine, he'd be sent to the "MvC Simulator" (;P), if not no big deal 'cause the hits still behaved mostly as they should and those chars are a minory anyway. And IIRC TargetState and HitOverride don't clash and cause any errors, as HitOverride takes priority (since it prevents the char from becoming a "target" in the first place).

But using custom states for the MvC insane hits is one thing, for KoF you don't need to go that far just because of a small difference in friction, IMO.
First, the problem with TargetState and HitOverride is that when combined, the attack just doesn't hit. It misses as if there were no CLSN1. Try this on such characters as Mech Zangief who have HitOverride enabled persistently.
And then, standing/crouching attacks are the least pain. The most pain are attacks which sends opponents flying in the air. You see, every single tick that opponent flies in the air affects original KOF XI gameplay. Without me disabling opponent's yaccel by putting Physics = N in custom states there is no talk about KOF accuracy. And in KOF XI, for example, the camera doesn't follow the player that is being hit in the air. That's a minor thing, but gameplay is made of minor things.
If you know how to avoid the problem with TargetState missing HitOverriden opponents, that would be a miracle.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on August 09, 2007, 04:40:12 am
First, the problem with TargetState and HitOverride is that when combined, the attack just doesn't hit. It misses as if there were no CLSN1. Try this on such characters as Mech Zangief who have HitOverride enabled persistently.
That's when a HitDef with p2stateno hits an opponent with HitOverride. Sending chars to custom states via TargetState instead doesn't cause it.
(Just threw a HitOverride in one of my chars to confirm this)

Quote
Without me disabling opponent's yaccel by putting Physics = N in custom states there is no talk about KOF accuracy
Unless the opponent is supposed to have 2 different accelerations at different points (I think such thing exists in KoF, did I just dream it? o_O) the HitDef yaccel is enough.

The one issue I can think of with chars falling through the air, that can't be solved with regular means, is that in real games they hit the floor when pos y>=0 while in Mugen they do it when pos y>=25, which can somewhat affect the distance travelled. But it's like I said above:
Quote
shouldn't be enough to hurt the gameplay. And even if it did, it's something that affects all attacking chars in Mugen and not just yours.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 09, 2007, 05:00:30 am
That's when a HitDef with p2stateno hits an opponent with HitOverride. Sending chars to custom states via TargetState instead doesn't cause it.
You brought me too many good news today, P.o.t.S. :) I can already feel the flow of enthusiasm :suttrox:
Unless the opponent is supposed to have 2 different accelerations at different points (I think such thing exists in KoF, did I just dream it? o_O)
You guessed right. It is so for some attacks that opponent goes faster while going up and falls slower. Take 22 ticks for up and 24 ticks for down and you get 2 different VelAdds :) You say for other cases set yaccel is enough. Does it mean that HitDef's yaccel overwrites yaccel of a character? I assume it depends on the character's default hit states.
Well, you can hardly hit an opponent when his Pos Y >= 25 so I agree, that can hardly affect gameplay.
Then I definetly choose TargetState.

Speaking of velicities... How can I calculate the initial X velocity if I have the current data:
VelMul = 0.85
Path = 45
Time = 18
(if needed, the original initial velocity is 7)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on August 09, 2007, 05:40:56 am
Net connection failing while posting != fun >_<

You guessed right. It is so for some attacks that opponent goes faster while going up and falls slower. Take 22 ticks for up and 24 ticks for down and you get 2 different VelAdds :)
Ah, good, I remember seeing something like it when converting Kasumi's qcb+k but that was some time ago so I wasn't sure.

Quote
You say for other cases set yaccel is enough. Does it mean that HitDef's yaccel overwrites yaccel of a character?
Yes.

Quote
Speaking of velicities... How can I calculate the initial X velocity if I have the current data:
VelMul = 0.85
Path = 45
Time = 18
if needed, the initial velocity is 7.
Do you mean for the ground.velocity value? I never studied frictioned movement in Physics class :-X, so I just do it by trial and error while looking at the debug text (displaytoclipboard with positions, not the generic text), checking the opponent's initial position then hitting him and checking where he ends up, until the distance travelled is the same as the game.
Usually I force the opponent to a rounded position value like -60.0 or something before he's hit, so it's easier to compare the two positions (down to the decimals, you can see those in KoF via Artmoney).
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 09, 2007, 06:06:36 am
Well, your method is nice, but since it is okay to use TargetState...  :sugoi: I'd rather calculate velocities and VelAdds that 99% accurately describes movements.
Still thinking about issues which might happen if I'll always use TargetState. When do I need to SelfState opponent? At state 5030? Or rather 5100? I'd choose 5100 if possible because I want to use ScreenBound controller to disable Y camera movement for falling character. And the issue that might occur is P2's recovery. If opponent's commands are compatible (if opponent has command = "recovery" in his .cmd) the there's no problem. If not, then I'm disabling his recovery with my custom states...
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on August 09, 2007, 06:14:31 am
"recovery" command is required by Mugen.
About that custom state, is it for the move with different accels? If so you'll have to make it 5100, because any sooner and you won't have full control of his fall.

If not I don't agree with using custom states for all attacks just for such effects (if you check my post again, I said it works, not that it's recommended ;P).
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 09, 2007, 06:22:10 am
"recovery" command is required by Mugen.
About that custom state, is it for the move with different accels? If so you'll have to make it 5100, because any sooner and you won't have full control of his fall.

If not I don't agree with using custom states for all attacks just for such effects (if you check my post again, I said it works, not that it's recommended ;P).
Why isn't it recommended then ??? And I can control VelAdd outside custom states, TargetVelAdd controller :)

[state blah]
type = HitDef
ID = 1130
blah
yaccel = .6916996

;-----------------------
[State -2, Air Accel Mod]
Type = TargetVelAdd
Triggerall = P2StateType = A
Triggerall = P2StateNo = [5050,5060]
Triggerall = Enemy, Vel Y > 0
trigger1 = NumTarget(1130) > 0
y = -.01228106
So the initial VelAdd is .6916996 and it becomes 0.568889 at Vel Y > 0 :)

But you cannot even imagine how much of KOF XI feel that camera movement gives...
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on August 10, 2007, 04:23:29 am
Why isn't it recommended then ???
Just because it removes the opponent's freedom to do whatever he wants with his hit states.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 10, 2007, 05:10:23 pm
topc is fun, too bad i did not notice t before.

personally i use accurate hitvels while completely ignoring the stupid friction value of mugen characters, as i don't feel i should be fixing the world. instead i just put accurate friction in my chars.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 10, 2007, 05:30:17 pm
topc is fun, too bad i did not notice t before.

personally i use accurate hitvels while completely ignoring the stupid friction value of mugen characters, as i don't feel i should be fixing the world. instead i just put accurate friction in my chars.
Putting accurate friction in your character is good, but then only your character will behave accurate with these velocities. Or do you use custom states for all moves? Right now I think about recalculating velocities considering standard .85 friction and don't use custom states whenever it is possible. If anything, I'll use TargetVelAdd controller. Give me your thought about it.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 10, 2007, 05:42:40 pm
veladd is acceleration, nto friction, friction is velmul. if i put accurate friction in my characters and use accurate hitvels, that should be enough.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 10, 2007, 07:32:59 pm
Am I doing this right? I need to derermine new value for Vel1 with VelMul1 (stand.friction) = 0.85.

Vel0 = -5
VelAdd0 = 0.2631579

1) VelMul0 = (Vel0-VelAdd0)/Vel0
VelMul0 = (-5+0.2631579)/-5 = 0.94736842 (seems unnaturally low)

2) |Vel1|*VelMul1 = |Vel0|*VelMul0
Vel1 = |Vel0|*VelMul0/VelMul1
Vel1 = |-5|*0.94736842/0.85 = 5.57275541176 ~ 5.573

 :S

Field tests proves me wrong. Vel = -5 and VelAdd = 0.2631579 works perfect when I use custom states, but when I turn VelAdd into VelMul like that it goes wrong. So using Vel = -5 and VelMul (Stand.Friction) = 0.94736842 doesn't work. Using Vel = -5.573 and Stand.Friction = 0.85 doesn't work either. Help, please.  :-\
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 10, 2007, 08:04:48 pm
friction is a force that decreases your current speed by a certain proportion, not a constant force like accel. so, if my initial vel is 10 and my friction is 0.5 the speed goes down like.

10
5
2.5
1.25
0.625
0.3125
0.15625
0.078125

until you consider it 0.

so, the distance = vel * friction + vel * friction**2 + vel * friction**3 until you consider it 0. since you know that it wil slide for 13 ticks, it can be expressed as:

distance = S from1 to 13(ticks) vel * friction**N

since you know the distance and the friction, ourt X = the vel.

80(example dist) = X  * .85 + X *.85**2 + X *.85**3 etc..

so

80(example dist) =X ( 1  * .85 + 1 *.85**2 + 1 *.85**3 etc..)

so

80(example dist) =X ( .85 + .85**2 + .85**3 etc..)

so

X =  ( .85 + .85**2 + .85**3 etc..) / 80 (example dist)


i am a bit rusty on my math, as i am pretty sure there are better wasy to simplify this.

Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 10, 2007, 11:08:42 pm
Thank you very much! I'll try working with this. I think you've made a mistake at the end, though:
80(example dist) =X ( .85 + .85**2 + .85**3 etc..)

so

X =  ( .85 + .85**2 + .85**3 etc..) / 80 (example dist)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 10, 2007, 11:18:35 pm
yeah, it 's X = 80 / (everithing else)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: BigBoss on August 10, 2007, 11:45:16 pm
Why are most edits /redos /chars from another char that are made to look badass  :sugoi: always either SERIOUS, FURIOUS, LVL2,  and other stuff like that xD


No offence love the char  :sugoi: *waits for it*
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 11, 2007, 12:16:47 am
Why are most edits /redos /chars from another char that are made to look badass  :sugoi: always either SERIOUS, FURIOUS, LVL2,  and other stuff like that xD
Well, he was meant overpowered at first, but as I was working on him the concept has changed. Still the fact that he uses all his techniques in a ...mmm, effective manner makes him serious enough. ^_^
P.S. I don't understand lvl2 thingy too :)
P.P.S. Another name for him is "Honki ni Natta Kyo Kusanagi" which is a Japanese equivalent of "Serious Kyo Kusanagi". Remember Serious Mr. Karate from SvC? His original name is Honki ni Natta Mr. Karate.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on August 11, 2007, 02:40:29 am
if i put accurate friction in my characters (...) that should be enough.
Two issues with that method:
1- as Elix said, only your chars will behave as you want, and that's like 0.1% of all chars in Mugen
2- Your chars won't behave as expected when hit by other chars, causing them to not combo as they were meant to

That's why I think the friction constants shouldn't be messed with (all I do is setting the crouching one to the same as standing).
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 11, 2007, 04:14:07 am
that's stupid, every character has got a unique friction, just check any real game, teh changes might be small, but they are there. i am not gonig to put up with kfms retarded friction just as i don't put up with it's hitdefs or with the liedown time.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on August 11, 2007, 11:54:17 am
Should be 'Hontou ni! Ore wa Kyo Kusanagi-san!' xD

Quote
always either SERIOUS, FURIOUS, LVL2,  and other stuff like that xD
Unlike other FURIOUS/LVL2 WIPs which are simply pure bullshit, this one is 'serious'.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 11, 2007, 03:47:59 pm
'Hontou ni! Ore wa Kyo Kusanagi-san!' xD
This translates as: "Really! I am Mr.Kyo Kusanagi!" xD
Unlike other FURIOUS/LVL2 WIPs which are simply pure bullshit, this one is 'serious'.
And that could be another interpretation of his name :)
that's stupid, every character has got a unique friction, just check any real game, teh changes might be small, but they are there. i am not gonig to put up with kfms retarded friction just as i don't put up with it's hitdefs or with the liedown time.
It is true that every character has unique friction but it doesn't cancel what has P.o.t.S. said. We either choose accuracy for a few characters and gameplay faults with others, or something in the middle by using standard friction. OR use custom states.
I experience difficulties with determiming velocity with your formula. My input is:
distance = 45; time = 18; friction = 0.85
So the formula for me was: x = 45/(0.85+0.85^2+0.85^3+...+0.85^18) ~ 8.3206

My character's stand.friction is set to 0.85. State 5001 also doesn't have any differences with standard. But with this velocity the distance increases by 50, not 45.

By the way, maybe I know the way how to use TargetState while leaving more freedom to P2. I may use TargetState only at state 5001, instead of putting him straight into 5000. So it's trigger1 = HitShakeOver instead of MoveHit.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 11, 2007, 03:54:24 pm
simply, i will not try to convince to work as i do, but i don't mind talking about it.

Yaccel          = 0.62
Stand.Friction       = .83
Crouch.Friction    = .80


those are some kof-like friction values.

simply put, if using kfm's default .85 friction, that means kfm will slide more, so, you have to use a smaller value for hitdefs to get the apropiate distance. i got into this when corner pushing; by not having an apropiate friction , you have to balance between final push distance (which i think you are overrating), and the discrete push distance of all the other points of time, so, for an attack that last 13 ticks of hitslide, you are sacrificing the distance on 12 ticks to get an apropiate distance on a single tick.

notice that several combos don't hit on the very last tick, but rather in the middle points.

so, if the alternatives, since you don't want to use a proper friction value in your char is either put p2 on a  custom hitstate witha  median kof friction,  or not doing it and use kfm'0s friction, i say go with the custom state.



[EDIT]

for all the fellows who think that math is useless...

this basically describes the friction behaviour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_progression


And that could be another interpretation of his name :)
I experience difficulties with determiming velocity with your formula. My input is:
distance = 45; time = 18; friction = 0.85
So the formula for me was: x = 45/(0.85+0.85^2+0.85^3+...+0.85^18) ~ 8.3206

My character's stand.friction is set to 0.85. State 5001 also doesn't have any differences with standard. But with this velocity the distance increases by 50, not 45.

mugen has got a weird way to apply velocity, in this case it is very likely it is not frictioning your velocity on the very first tick.

another way to see this friction is, based on the wikipedia article:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/e/1/7/e17add2e3eaa782635408e542ee8be1a.png)

distance =( vel*(.85 - .85**(hitslidetime+1) ) ) / (1 - .85)

now just clear the vel.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: VioFitz on August 11, 2007, 06:07:48 pm
'Hontou ni! Ore wa Kyo Kusanagi-san!' xD
This translates as: "Really! I am Mr.Kyo Kusanagi!" xD

indeed.

Quote
P.P.S. Another name for him is "Honki ni Natta Kyo Kusanagi" which is a Japanese equivalent of "Serious Kyo Kusanagi". Remember Serious Mr. Karate from SvC? His original name is Honki ni Natta Mr. Karate.

Honki Ni Natta Mr. Kusanagi(just like Shingo Yabuki's said Kusanagi-san("san" also means mister, right?)

Well, atleast he doesn't sounds like Mr. Karate which is trying to hide his personality but most people already know who is he like in SVC while he's about to speech with KOF chars.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 11, 2007, 06:49:25 pm
honki ni nata kyo chan
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: C.v.s The Abstract on August 11, 2007, 07:42:34 pm
So far the kyo looks badass  ;D
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 12, 2007, 01:59:04 am
honki ni nata kyo chan
:bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry:
"Chan" is commonly used prefix for girls ;D And thanks for reference material!
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: VioFitz on August 12, 2007, 02:14:20 am
honki ni nata kyo chan
:bigcry: :bigcry: :bigcry:
"Chan" is commonly used prefix for girls ;D And thanks for reference material!

Not just for girls imo even for little kid/brat were called "chan" also.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jango on August 12, 2007, 02:27:56 am
Errrr, it's a term of endearment.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 12, 2007, 09:25:35 am
"Chan" is much less common for boys than "kun". And it can be used to the older person as teasing. But let's not flood about it here anymore :)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: VioFitz on August 12, 2007, 11:42:01 am
Quote
"Chan" is much less common for boys than "kun". And it can be used to the older person as teasing.

Yeah, most older male got teased if they were called "chan", as for girls/womens... I think they don't mind if they were called "chan" eventhough they're older.[size=2pt]My girlfriend is older than me & she's a Japanese[/size]

Quote
But let's not flood about it here anymore

Okay, back to the topic: judging from his portrait I think you should make him a bit older & make his expression more badass.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: unbeknowNst on August 12, 2007, 01:31:05 pm
Good luck, Kyo Kusanagi is my favorite SNK character.

Excellent ideas and plot.

I'll be looking forward to this project.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 12, 2007, 03:50:00 pm
My girlfriend is older than me & she's a Japanese
Wow, that's great :sugoi: Congratulations :)
Okay, back to the topic: judging from his portrait I think you should make him a bit older & make his expression more badass.
Will editing the expression of his face on the stance sprites be enough?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: VioFitz on August 12, 2007, 04:28:42 pm
Quote
Wow, that's great Congratulations

Thanks :)

Quote
Will editing the expression of his face on the stance sprites be enough?

Hmm... Like the one at Mugenchina(Kusanagi sprite's face fixed's thread)? If so that will be cool but please don't make his mouth smiles like evil,(He's not Kusanagi the evil clone, right?) But it's your choice...

Goodluck for your chars.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 12, 2007, 09:35:45 pm
How's this?

              Old                              New
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/StanceOld.gif)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/StanceNew.gif)

Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jango on August 12, 2007, 09:40:15 pm
"Chan" is much less common for boys than "kun". And it can be used to the older person as teasing. But let's not flood about it here anymore :)

ARGH come on, -chan is obviously used as a term of endearment, and is genderless.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 12, 2007, 09:43:10 pm
This is an offtopic. But... Well, define prefix "kun" then. And this debte will be over as soon as someone gives the information from Japanese textbook.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Robert The Small on August 12, 2007, 09:45:14 pm
This is an offtopic. But... Well, define prefix "kun" then. And this debte will be over as soon as someone gives the information from Japanese textbook.
Generally, textbooks don't have shit like that in it, but eh.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jango on August 12, 2007, 09:49:29 pm
-kun is more masculine, only referring to guyz.
-chan refers to someone you are familiar with and love I guess (ie: It's perfectly acceptable to put it after "father")
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 12, 2007, 09:53:09 pm
-chan is obviously used as a term of endearment, and is genderless.
-chan refers to someone you are familiar with and love I guess (ie: It's perfectly acceptable to put it after "father")
Now that I think about it I agree. Now this issue is resolved :) I suggest continue speaking about this here:
http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=23997.20
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: unbeknowNst on August 12, 2007, 11:15:13 pm
The edit looks great as well. 8)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: VioFitz on August 13, 2007, 02:34:41 am
How's this?


(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/StanceOld.gif)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/StanceNew.gif)



Basically he needs some expression which is make him really look serious imo. Well, I would make him like this:

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/VioFitz/SeriousKyo.gif)

(http://h1.ripway.com/VioFitz/SeriousKyo.PNG)

If you wanna use take this sheet. ;)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 13, 2007, 12:10:05 pm
Nice one, but seems more like "Angry/Pissed Off Kyo" to me :) How about this one?

(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/StanceNew2.gif)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on August 13, 2007, 12:47:45 pm
Maybe make his teeth show for just one more frame?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: VioFitz on August 13, 2007, 02:20:26 pm
Nice one, but seems more like "Angry/Pissed Off Kyo" to me :) How about this one?

(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/StanceNew2.gif)

Yeah, I think it's too extremely that he's furious(about mine one), as for your one it's good but the way he close his mouth motion is too fast.

Well, I edited his face a bit more to show that he's a bit adult(his face a bit wider & rounded rectangle):

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/VioFitz/SeriousKyo2.gif)

The expression were also changed. Sheet is on my previous post if you wanna compare them/use them.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 13, 2007, 06:16:36 pm
You know how to edit sprites, I see. But I'd rather choose SNK's vision on how Kyo looks like when he's older. Which you can see on my version (the head is taken from Kyo XI). And I made so his teeth shows for a longer period of time. This time it's perfect, I think.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/StanceNew2-1.gif)

And here's VioFitz's version (don't mind artefacts)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/StanceNewVioFitz.gif)

P.S. I'm sorry, VioFitz, if you feel that your efforts were in vain. Maybe you can help me with editing his portrait?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: VioFitz on August 13, 2007, 06:53:22 pm
Quote
You know how to edit sprites, I see. But I'd rather choose SNK's vision on how Kyo looks like when he's older. Which you can see on my version (the head is taken from Kyo XI). And I made so his teeth shows for a longer period of time. This time it's perfect, I think.

I see now as for me I'd rather choose like he should be like people in 30 years old, & yeah, it's better now.  :)

Quote
P.S. I'm sorry, VioFitz, if you feel that your efforts were in vain. Maybe you can help me with editing his portrait?

No problem atleast it could inspired you to make a better expressions ;). I did this because my job's time were cancelled only for today for some reason, therefore I've spend my time all day long in my apartment specially on my pc, then I got bored so I'm trying to help you a bit... As for portrait I'm not really sure because tomorrow I've got to work on job... I'm sorry also.... :'(
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 13, 2007, 07:25:01 pm
No prob. If anything, here's the topic:
http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=61152.0

P.S. Remaking his cornerpush system now.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 13, 2007, 07:29:37 pm
give him a moustacho. i jsut read he is supossed to be 30.

about corner push, iirc in kof corner push differs a lot whenever you are aerial or in the ground, though i don't rememebr the specifics right now.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Lasombra Demon on August 13, 2007, 07:41:18 pm
give him a moustacho. i jsut read he is supossed to be 30.
+1

It would make him resemble his father. :sugoi:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on August 13, 2007, 08:48:37 pm
That actually sounds like a pretty cool idea. I'd love to see a more "grown" Kyo.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 14, 2007, 04:18:06 am
Yeah, well, that's funny and all, guys. But Kyo is not the type to wear mustache at 30 ;P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on August 14, 2007, 04:20:34 am
Yeah. If anything he'd have a beard.
Title: WTF CCI LV2 HONKI NI NATTA CUTE MR ELIX KUSANAGI 92i
Post by: walt on August 14, 2007, 04:33:08 am
I have experience with beards :beardgoi:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 14, 2007, 04:43:32 am
WTF CCI LV2 HONKI NI NATTA CUTE MR ELIX KUSANAGI 92i
o_O :laugh:
Yeah. If anything he'd have a beard.
But not until 50 :P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: The Lord of the Flies on August 14, 2007, 04:47:07 am
How about a beard? Like, half grown (think of Homer Simpson's).
Well, besides that, it seems that this Kyo will practically have anything I could think of. How long do you think before a beta is released, Elix?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Robert The Small on August 14, 2007, 04:55:42 am
Not have a beard at 30? Thats strange, my brother is 19 and he has a beard, not a HUGE beard, but one none the less.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on August 14, 2007, 06:18:13 am
XD I don't think Elix wants a beard in his Kyo.

Maybe for the portrait, you can put some beard, but not on the sprites.

And yeah, my cousin has a beard and he's 21. Obviously not a thick one, but yeah, there's a beard. And before you ask, he is Asian.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 14, 2007, 12:28:26 pm
I'm 20 and I have a beard. But some people's hair growth is rather redundant. For example, the husband of my sister is 33 and he's always clean-shaven. :) Kyo is a dandy, a narcissist (less than Benimaru and some others though xD) and I think he finds himself attractive without a beard or mustache ;) So please, no more beard stuff.
How long do you think before a beta is released, Elix?
There will be no beta release, final only. Yet I will give a fully playable version before I release him to some people who can actually give me the proper feedback and who is reliant. And how long do I think before a final release? When I'm done with velocities, juggling and some other stuff ^_^
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: VioFitz on August 14, 2007, 05:13:11 pm
I'm 20 and I have a beard. But some people's hair growth is rather redundant. For example, the husband of my sister is 33 and he's always clean-shaven. :) Kyo is a dandy, a narcissist (less than Benimaru and some others though xD) and I think he finds himself attractive without a beard or mustache ;) So please, no more beard stuff.

I myself 21 & I have a beard but not really grown like my moustache, & yeah I hate beard & moustache so I've always shave it. The reason why I make his face a bit wider it's because I've saw Kim's face he's a bit wider & rounded rectangle comparing to Kyo, Iori, & even Terry. Well, I think this is showing that Kim is old but not too old like Takuma or Saisyu, also Kim Has no beard.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: unbeknowNst on August 14, 2007, 05:38:07 pm
I'm 15 with a bushy mustache and beard 8)

[/offtopic]
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 14, 2007, 06:09:14 pm
just swap kyo's head for saysyu's and call it a wip.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 14, 2007, 06:41:58 pm
just swap kyo's head for saysyu's and call it a wip.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/laff.jpg)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jesuszilla on August 14, 2007, 07:34:02 pm
You forgot the fact that Kyo is lazy and thus a beard would make sense, but whatever I see what you're getting at.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: kaddet on August 15, 2007, 06:48:00 am
How about a long hair???  ;D


well... forgot... maybe so much work  --;
 :sugoi:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: unbeknowNst on August 15, 2007, 06:50:26 am
Usually, in Japan, it's the older people that have shorter hair.

Younger kids like the long bangs and all that crap, but from most anime's that I've watched, as they turn from a young hero into an adult, they shorten their hair either slightly or drastically. So reconsider.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 15, 2007, 06:52:20 am
How about a long hair???  ;D


well... forgot... maybe so much work  --;
 :sugoi:
You may compare Kyo's head from 99 and his head from 2003 several pages earlier. His hair became a little longer.
And I'm eagerly waiting for your new movements :)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Mysterious Bob on August 27, 2007, 12:53:49 pm
I'm glad you're not giving him any facial hair. Why is it always
age = beard?

It doesn't make that much sense. Thanks for breaking the trend.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on August 27, 2007, 12:57:44 pm
"age = beard" because "evil = red eyes". ;P

Well, more than breaking the trend, it's more because :
1) respriting every sprite would have been an assle.
2) it doesn't fit Kyo at all IMO.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: K.O.D on August 27, 2007, 02:27:54 pm
Yes,and Kyo will become a hippie like my l33t edit :

(http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/6852/longhairandbeardph2.png)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on August 27, 2007, 03:25:46 pm
Fuck. My eyes.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Rikard on August 27, 2007, 03:31:42 pm
You forgot the silly colored T-shirt, baggy pants, and sandals.  >:(
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 27, 2007, 04:02:58 pm
I've been asked on a different forum:
Quote
Question - Will he be able to sidestep on top of being able to perform a roll?
Thanks to Kaddet's masterful spritework it became possible: (http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KyoDodge.gif) Serious Kyo has dodge and slide in addition to roll. Dodge has 1 frame of invincibility less than roll, slide is technically the same as roll, with different animation: (http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/Slide.gif)
Kyo will be able to attack from dodge and slide. Slide attack has 3 ticks of invul in the beginning, dodge attack is completely vulnerable.
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/DodgeAttack.gif)(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/SlideAttack.gif)

The durations are not guessed. KOF XI data:
Roll Forwards: 26 ticks all attacks invulnerability, all throws vulnerability; 5 ticks complete vulnerability (recovery time)
Roll Backwards: 26 ticks all attacks invulnerability, all throws vulnerability; 6 ticks complete vulnerability

Basing on these values and changes that were made from previous years, the data for dodge & slide:
Dodge: 24 ticks all attacks invulnerability, all throws vulnerability; 6 ticks complete vulnerability
Slide: 26 ticks all attacks invulnerability, all throws vulnerability; 5 ticks complete vulnerability
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 28, 2007, 02:14:34 pm
...You should just calculate the hitvels having the standard .85 standing friction in mind, the difference in distance travelled by standing or crouching opponents shouldn't be enough to hurt the gameplay. And even if it did, it's something that affects all attacking chars in Mugen and not just yours.
I tried to convince myself that it won't hurt the gameplay. So I did the calculations and tests. And my conclusion is that it affects:
- gameplay (just a little);
- KOF XI feel (greatly).

In KOF XI x-movement is described by VelAdds, which differs from friction greatly. Let's take a strong hit as an example. Input data: movement time - 18 game ticks, distance - 45. In KOF XI it is described: VelSet = -5, VelAdd = 0.2631579. So on the 1th tick the velocity is -5. Then: -4.7368421, -4.4736842... until it reaches zero at Time = 19.
Doing as P.o.t.S. said I found out velocity with which the distance travelled is 45 at time = 19 with ground.friction = 0.85. But this value failed a gameplay test criteria which I've found out for Kyo. He can hit the cornered opponent only 5 times a row (with command buffering). The sixth try is almost, but it always misses. Yet with this calculated velocity my Kyo is able to hit 6 times in a row (with command buffering too; and cornerpushes now works as they should be).So I increased the velocity until I got the least velocity which gave me 5 hits in a row in the corner (if you wonder how I do it, I just take two values and calculate the middle value; i.e. value1 = x, value2 = x + 1, the new value is x + 0,5. Then x + 0,75, x + 0,875...). The new velocity is -8.190625. But the distance travelled is now 48 instead of 45 (this is a little gameplay influence I mentioned). But the next velocity values with friction will be these: -6.962032, -5.917727... As you can see, the smoothness which KOF XI had is gone. This influences KOF XI feel greatly.

So now I'm looking for a way to preserve KOF XI feel. There are two ways I can think of.
1) To use TargetVelAdd to overwrite the effect of friction! I've made this up just as I've been writing this post, but it can really work. Example:
[State TargetVelAdd]
type = TargetVelAdd
trigger1 = NumTarget(1000)
trigger1 = target,HitShakeOver
trigger1 = target,StateType = S || target,StateType = C
x = -target,Vel X*ifelse(target,StateType = C,target,const(movement.crouch.friction),target,const(movement.stand.friction)) + target,Vel X + 0.2631579

If that works like I anticipate then the only problem I see will occur when opponent has overriden state 5001 and it doesn't use const(movement.ground.friction) as VelMul.

2) To use TargetState. The best idea I had so far is to put an opponent in TargetState at HitShakeOver, not on MoveHit. This means that opponent still will be in his own state 5000 (combo breakers...). The only big problem I see is that characters which have several instances will behave buggy with my TargetState, because it will always make P2 use his standard animations (5001, 5011...) which will be the first instance of that multi-character.

P.S. I've tested the TargetVelAdd value, the formula is wrong. I still believe it's possible to do so.
P.P.S. Basically what I had tried to do is to extract velocity multiplied by friction and add a value of VelAdd on every tick.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 28, 2007, 11:43:41 pm
are you sure kof uses vel add as opossed ot friction for X hit vels ?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 28, 2007, 11:59:08 pm
Yep, sure. :book:
Seems like I've been able to nullify the effect of friction with this:
x = -target,Vel X*ifelse(target,StateType = C,target,const(movement.crouch.friction),target,const(movement.stand.friction)) + target,Vel X
It's only that the velocity is not like it's set at HitDef. Instead of constant -5 I get -4.7712345... Seems like the velocity is changed somewhere before Hit Slide.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 29, 2007, 01:00:32 am
friction is applyed since the first tick.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 29, 2007, 01:27:32 am
friction is applyed since the first tick.
I know. And it doesn't help.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: ziltama on August 29, 2007, 03:38:05 am
A better sprite edit (besides adding beard and possibly a cowbell) would be to resprite Kyo in his KOF:MI2 outfit.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 29, 2007, 10:00:43 am
A better sprite edit (besides adding beard and possibly a cowbell) would be to resprite Kyo in his KOF:MI2 outfit.
Do this and you'll get credited ;P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 29, 2007, 05:43:33 pm
just divide by friction to get the actual vel.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on August 29, 2007, 06:39:29 pm
just divide by friction to get the actual vel.
How do you suggest I divide by friction? There is no TargetVelMul controller. Only TargetVelADD.
Hmm, I might as well use TargetVelSet controller... So your post was kinda useful :)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 29, 2007, 07:30:54 pm
one of the problems i found wiht mugen's sctrl design is that some of the simple sctrls make you forget that you can ocmpose sctrlsto do the same job, rendering some of the simple ones redundant.

my favorite example is varadd, since you can only use varset and in the value put var + whatever would be on the var add. that comes not really from faulty design, but from the time when mugen did not support math expressions.

Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Peter H. on August 30, 2007, 07:11:15 am
Serious Kyo is serious....  And so is his story...and so is this thread....  2shy

(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/7176/118117898997os2.th.jpg) (http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=118117898997os2.jpg)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: K.O.D on August 30, 2007, 07:18:16 am
Im not a mod or anything,but please don't spam on a to-be-great characters thread.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Peter H. on August 30, 2007, 07:25:50 am
Actually, this is my way of showing my support.  I'm poking fun at the "seriousness" but I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on August 30, 2007, 07:34:51 am
Dodge: 24 ticks all attacks invulnerability, all throws vulnerability; 6 ticks complete vulnerability
Not sure you should make it vulnerable, it remained completely invulnerable (except against throws of course) even after Capcom's KoF gameplay overhaul for CvS, so it must be like a cornerstone of the ability.

About friction, I could swear hitvels in KoF used friction... don't have the value at hand but it was like .82 something and the first 5 or 6 digits were always the same no matter the vels, which could be proof enough.
But now that you mention I want to check it again (not now, currently on vacations and away from my stuff). ;P It's definitely decelerated in Capcom games though, on a random note.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 30, 2007, 05:25:24 pm
they must be vulnerable, otherwise you can pull off stuff like rolling to grabs or sdms.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on September 01, 2007, 04:36:40 pm
I didn't say they shouldn't be vulnerable to throws, just that they shouldn't have recovery time like in both KoF and CvS.

Here are the velocities from a strong normal hit btw, straight from Artmoney:

11,1796875
9,2581787109375
7,66693115234375
6,34918212890625
5,2579193115234375
4,354217529296875
3,6058349609375
2,986083984375
2,4728546142578125
2,0478363037109375
1,69586181640625
1,404388427734375
1,1630096435546875
0,9631195068359375
0,797576904296875
0,660491943359375
0,546966552734375
0,4529571533203125

If you do the math you'll notice they're multiplied by approximately 0,82812 every tick.
As additional proof, if you sum all that up you'll get 62,86..., which is the exact distance travelled by a char after such hit.

Taken from 2002, but are also used at least from 98 till that one, 2003's are different and I never checked those before 98. The constant is the same for a weak normal attack, but I couldn't be bothered to list the vels tick by tick for that type as well. ;P

Btw [E], Yuri and Chang also get the same vels, so I don't think there are size classes like you mentioned.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 01, 2007, 04:56:59 pm
Thanks a lot. Maybe I really was dreaming about VelAdds, but I have to check KOF XI once again to be sure. And what version of ArtMoney do you use? 'cause the one I downloaded from official site didn't work for me (it didn't find any values).
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on September 01, 2007, 05:05:43 pm
I guess it's because you're not using Artmoney properly. I tried it on SFZ3 and succeeded at gathering information thanks to TDS' tutorial... but when I tried it on Samurai Deeper Kyo, I couldn't even find the timer. ;P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 01, 2007, 05:13:32 pm
That version could only search for known values. Any other methods failed. It's not that I've never used such kind of programs (Cheat'o'matic, Cheat Finder, Magic Trainer Creator...)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on September 01, 2007, 05:15:58 pm
I just use the latest freeware one, also have Pro but I just grew used to the freeware one. If yours only searches for known values it must be really outdated. o_O

Here's my current table for 2002: http://www.sendspace.com/file/dzjic6
Whatever has a 2 in front (Pos X2 etc) is a float value and you'll need to divide what's shown by 65536 to convert it to such.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 01, 2007, 06:43:18 pm
pots: i see, then the combos against chang, yuri , tc.. that apply different are due to clsns and not hitvels.. note that i never really got into getting those char's friction values soicne i have only worked on mai and angel at that level.

i got similar values by using velcalculator, which is before i knew how to use artmoney.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Jekido on September 03, 2007, 05:27:25 am
looks great
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 03, 2007, 03:32:32 pm
New neat chain combo :sugoi: Thanks to Kaddet for making it possible! (Now THIS is what I call sprite edits :grin2:)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KaddetsNewChain.gif)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Rikard on September 03, 2007, 04:05:16 pm
The sudden arm movement between frames 18 and 19 looks seriously weird to me.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 03, 2007, 04:23:09 pm
I think that was partially because of wrong animation ticks. I updated the image, does it look any better?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on September 03, 2007, 04:24:13 pm
Yes, the movement doesn't seem broken anymore IMO. :yes:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 03, 2007, 06:44:12 pm
New finisher of the Stylish Arts chain combo (thanks to Kaddet again):
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/JinsElbowChain.gif)

Inspired by Jin from Tekken 3 ^_^ He has very similar elbow punches chain ending with straight punch.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: face_de_castor on September 03, 2007, 06:52:36 pm
New neat chain combo :sugoi: Thanks to Kaddet for making it possible! (Now THIS is what I call sprite edits :grin2:)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KaddetsNewChain.gif)

I don't understand the 2nd movement.
Is it an upper? A hook? NO IT'S THE SMASH! Wait...

Honestly, this 2nd hit isn't logical at all, and I know what I'm talking about... I box IRL.

Edit: if it's a backhand, I'd rather see it on the high of the face instead of the torso.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 03, 2007, 07:22:33 pm
Yes, it's a backhand. I don't think he aims the torso. o_O You say his arm should be higher? Is that all? Please, explain yourself in more detail.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: -_Shadow_- on September 03, 2007, 07:25:25 pm
New neat chain combo :sugoi: Thanks to Kaddet for making it possible! (Now THIS is what I call sprite edits :grin2:)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KaddetsNewChain.gif)

I don't understand the 2nd movement.
Is it an upper? A hook? NO IT'S THE SMASH! Wait...

Honestly, this 2nd hit isn't logical at all, and I know what I'm talking about... I box IRL.

Edit: if it's a backhand, I'd rather see it on the high of the face instead of the torso.

Reverse hit :p
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: face_de_castor on September 03, 2007, 07:29:15 pm
Yeah, higher. In fact, I think it's the leg position (too "sit"). And maybe add a "move-effect" like the following upper.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 03, 2007, 07:45:33 pm
I agree, that motion could use an additional "motion blur" frame.
BTW, I called this move "132 Shiki: OmoKusari" (Art 132: Heavy Chain) and the last motion of the combo "133 Shiki: Juushin" (Barrel of a Gun).
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: kaddet on September 03, 2007, 08:49:09 pm
New neat chain combo :sugoi: Thanks to Kaddet for making it possible! (Now THIS is what I call sprite edits :grin2:)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/KaddetsNewChain.gif)

I don't understand the 2nd movement.
Is it an upper? A hook? NO IT'S THE SMASH! Wait...

Honestly, this 2nd hit isn't logical at all, and I know what I'm talking about... I box IRL.

Edit: if it's a backhand, I'd rather see it on the high of the face instead of the torso.

Easy... just see the enemy animation after aragami connects... the 2d punch impacts directly in the face... it need some delayed programmation for the effect ;)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 03, 2007, 09:00:06 pm
Now that you mentioned, the animation for being hit by aragami is low, so opponent's face must be below its standing level.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: PotS on September 04, 2007, 11:52:16 pm
That new chain looks f'in cool, what commands have you planned for it?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: ricyorb on September 05, 2007, 12:24:22 am
seems like a very interesting proyect..im looking forward to it.. will it be a 4 button char or a 6 button? by the way woudnt it be cool if u could change his clothes? i think he has to change his clothes sometime :P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 05, 2007, 12:32:18 am
I love answering your questions, P.o.t.S. :)
Taking in account that Serious Kyo will have BC mode-like ability to cancel specials into specials in Kusanagi Rage mode I didn't use commands which would be player's choice to cancel from Aragami (for ex.: dokugami, kai, etc). I coded this chain today, so here's what I decided on commands (btw, the animations are updated). Hopefully, Kaddet will make one or two more sprites for Omokusari :sugoi:

132 Shiki: Omokusari [Heavy Chain] - after Aragami, hcb + hard punch (hcb + weak punch is his standard 127 Shiki: Yano Sabi cancel)
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/OmoKusari-1.gif)

133 Shiki: Juushin [Barrel of a Gun] - after Omokusari, p
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/Juushin-1.gif)

Here's HitDefs for these moves to give you a hint of how they should feel:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Moreover I made another branch of this chain which goes after Omokusari.

215 Shiki: Shin Dokugami - after Omokusari, qcf + p
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/ShinDokugami.gif)

Shin Dokugami hits twice. You might remember that Shingo sometimes hits twice. And second hit is a hard knockdown. You must be rather close to the opponent for the first hit to connect. If the first hit doesn't connect, the second hit won't combo (so it can be blocked). The first hit is SCable. In terms of damage this chain is by far the most damaging (200 base damage, slightly more damage than his standard Dokugami chain). Here're HitDefs for insight:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
will it be a 4 button char or a 6 button?
4 buttons. Since he's supposed to have KOF XI gameplay :sugoi: And I won't be respriting him just to give him new outfit.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Byakko on September 07, 2007, 01:53:27 am
The only good thing in those chains (both on the edits and the movements as such) is the Juushin, even I don't make useless (and physically broken) chains like the others. Just scrap the omokusari, it's lengthen the moves without any reason.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 07, 2007, 07:02:29 am
Maybe if you've played him you would've changed your opinion. And I believe Kaddet will add a few more sprites to omokusari so no one would complain about it anymore. And Serious Kyo has LOTS of useless things in your understanding since he has every special and DM he has ever had. :P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 09, 2007, 02:27:45 pm
@P.o.t.S., R[E]ika
Help? http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=28777.msg532932#msg532932

A new video is coming...
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 10, 2007, 06:03:54 am
i take it you already solved it...
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 10, 2007, 09:17:05 am
I still haven't solved velocities. For standing close strong punch:
0A947D0F = 4149084160
0A947D10 = 4294397440
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 11, 2007, 12:41:22 am
While I was retrieving accurate life/power/stun data, I decided to do some research on KOF XI juggling system (for Kyo in particular). First, I hacked Pos Y value ;D
(http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p59/Elix13/snap001.jpg)
I trapped P2 in the corner, jumped with him and froze his Pos Y value to be able to juggle forever. And here are some things that might be interesting:
- KOF XI juggling cannot be described through MUGEN's juggle points (you might be aware of that);
- KOF XI juggling is conditional;
- There are jugge starters - juggle spoilers [pre-juggle phase], no-hitters - juggle finishers - persistent jugglers and infinity jugglers [juggle phase];
- Pre-juggle phase is the time before you land a hit on your opponent. Juggle phase begins the moment you hit an airborne opponent or launch a standing opponent in the air. There is a need in distinguishing these two phases, because some moves tend to change their properties;
- Jugge starters allow you to further juggle your opponent while juggle spoilers does not. The examples of juggle starters are (let me set Kyo as example) Kai, second hit of the strong version, Hatsugane. The examples of juggle spoilers are Kai, the first hit of any version, oniyaki's second hit, any normal or command move when we speak about airborne opponent (though the nature of this is different - normal and command moves automatically send airborne opponent to recovery state);
- No-hitters are attacks which cannot hit juggled opponent. For example, Kai's strong version (this is the property change I was speaking about);
- Juggle finishers are attacks that can always hit juggled opponents but after which further juggling is impossible (except some cases - read next). Also known as one-hit jugglers;
- Persistent jugglers are attacks which can juggle opponent indefinitely until opponent is hit by a juggle finisher. Kyo has many. :buttrox: (Aragami, Kono Kizu, Hatsugane) One is one, two are enough, three are many :laugh: ;
- Infinity jugglers are like persistent jugglers except you may juggle even after juggle finishers. :ninja: EX Kyo has one (first hit of oniyaki's weak version). In KOF XI such juggles end when opponent is stunned (of course you wouldn't be able to do so - opponent will reach the ground sooner).

Important thing to add (thanks to R[E]ika for pointint this out) is that counter hit makes any attack a juggle starter.

So forget about juggle points. I suggest taking a variable for juggling. And we need only three digits to describe it: -1, 0 and 1. (-1) is a pre-juggle phase. This is needed to make some moves only able to hit in pre-juggle phase (such as strong Kai). (1) is for "juggle OK" flag, (0) is for "juggle over" flag. We can easily manipulate with those vars in -2 state (NumTarget(HitID)) and set triggerall = var(juggle) in HitDefs. Actually, I want to thank me for this post because it gave me a lot of ideas. :sugoi:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: DemonicDrPhil on September 11, 2007, 01:28:39 am
 o_O

Methinks you've been working too hard...damn this char is gonna be awesome...no point in making Kyo ever again.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: WanteD on September 11, 2007, 10:22:12 am
Thnx for taking the time to explain this.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: face_de_castor on September 11, 2007, 02:37:19 pm
So you have been studying SNK Playmore 's broken juggle system from KOF XI? Great.
Oh, basic movement will still require the original juggle points IMO. Just the moves like Shiki Kai and the moves that REALLY need that new system need variable IMO.

I'd honestly rather have a Kyo with good juggles than a Kyo having stupid infinite juggles.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 11, 2007, 06:15:48 pm
not to say you are wrong, since what you say still applyes, but from my research (which does not include kofxi for obvious reasons) juggle points are handled this way (note that the striker system breaks some of these rules).

juggle points are set depending on two conditions, first if you get or not a counter hit and second the attack that is currently hitting. once the juggle points have been set, they start counting down. most moves won't be able to juggle if the juggle points are less than one, the exception being moves that always juggle (usuallty one or none per character).

normally basic attacks allow for 0 juggle points on normal hit and 6 for juggling, projectiles work on the same IIRC, special attacks and commadn moves are handled in a case by case base; that means it is a relative lie that you can't hit someone in it's air recovery states, it is only that you are out of juggle points.

a way that i used t implement it is making it so all my moves require 10 juggle points, while my character only has 7, that means that he will be able to juggle after a partner, but not after itself. to allow juggling i use the no juggle check assert special in state -2.

the next is coded in st-2

so, in the actual implementation, first come a small list of varset sctrls, in which i set a var to a certain value depending on what is the move that is currently hitting and whether or not i got a counter hit.

after it comes the actual juggle checking, i check current stateno since as you said, there are 3 basic typos of juggle properties, moves that won't juggle, moves that juggle normally, and moves that always juggle. so, if stateno is = [moves that always juggle] i assert special the no jugglecheck, if stateno = [moves that juggle normally] i also check for varjuggle >0 if both are true i assert special the nojugglecheck, i don't bother checking if the move is one that can't juggle, since it won't juggle anyway.

a note is that mugen has got a bug so you can't link normal ground combos if you can't juggle, so i add another assert special to allow ground combos if the target is in the ground.

i hope i don't forget anithing.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 11, 2007, 06:34:53 pm
So you have been studying SNK Playmore's broken juggle system from KOF XI? Great.
It's only your opinion based on your preferences. I can't help if you don't like KOF XI juggle system, but since I am founding my Kyo on KOF XI gameplay KOF XI juggling will be his part. Oh, please, don't start arguing about this. Sadly, there are defects concerning it, but you can't juggle forever in practice (except Vanessa's infinity juggles defect), infinity jugglers are infinity only in theory.
Oh, basic movement will still require the original juggle points IMO. Just the moves like Shiki Kai and the moves that REALLY need that new system need variable IMO.
No, basic attacks are juggle finishers. With some rude exception when some character's normal attacks in earlier KOFs worked as infinity juggles.
I'd honestly rather have a Kyo with good juggles than a Kyo having stupid infinite juggles.
What is stupid infinity juggles? Use my terms - persistent juggles (aragami) or infinity juggles (oniyaki)? If you mean infinity juggles then I might agree with you and might as well remove this weak oniyaki's property.

@Reika
Well, everybody has got his own methods. While what you've said doesn't come in conflict with what I've said my theory still looks more logical and simple to me (not only to understand, but to implement too). Good addition about counters, I completely forgot about them. Well, using my theory any move that counters automatically becomes juggle starter. That's it.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 11, 2007, 06:56:04 pm
yah, though i don't see how you are going to code the strong shikikai - weak shiki kai, dp + c or jumping attack combo in your method, but that's up to you, i just did not watn to haord my findings.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Kamen Rider Joker on September 11, 2007, 07:22:40 pm
Elix, congrats. this is/will be the only Kyo Kusanagi i will download ( unless Kyozalid counts....) ...i can't wait.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: face_de_castor on September 11, 2007, 07:53:16 pm
Mmh, yeah, but stupid infinite I'm talking about the "combos" like Vanessa repeating MUGEN (infinite) times her double punch move. I haven't seen the Oniyaki version of it, but if it's the same, then that's also broken.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 12, 2007, 03:35:04 am
elix: disregard him, he likes ahuron's characters
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 12, 2007, 04:26:22 pm
elix: disregard him, he likes ahuron's characters
That was out of place, actually, because I like ahuron's characters too ^_^
But, face_de_castor, I think you're mistaken about KOF XI juggle system's ugliness. There are defects in almost every game. Vanessa's bug is there because that uppercot has wrong velocity. It had to be less for this unlimited juggling to be impossible.

@Reika
These are really no problems or conflicts as far as I can see in my theory and its implementation. If you're interested, I can write about its implementation in detail.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 12, 2007, 04:53:33 pm
i would lie if i said i am not interested :P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 12, 2007, 07:25:25 pm
You asked for this ;P

Values of the juggle variable:
To implement KOF (not only XI, this is true to older KOFs too) juggling system we need one variable. Let's call it var(13). It can take one of three values: 1, 0 and -1. Let's see what they mean.
- var(13) = 0 means that P2 is in his pre-juggle phase (Pre-juggle phase is the time before you land a hit on your opponent). All attacks are able to hit;
- var(13) = 1 means that P2 is in his juggle phase. Not all attacks are able to hit though the name of the phase tells different. For example, strong Kai can't (special for R[E]ika);
- var(13) = -1 means that juggle phase is over and P2 cannot be juggled anymore. With the exception of abnormal infinity jugglers.

Implementation:
The implementation of the code consists of two parts:
1) Setting a juggle variable in Statedef -2 for each of its values: 1, 0 and -1, and
2) Adding a trigger with this variable to all HitDefs.

By setting var(13) to 0 we reset juggle variable so we can juggle again. In KOF this happens when hit opponent reaches the ground. Coding-wise, this controller could look like this:
[State -2, Pre-Juggle Phase]
type = VarSet
triggerall = var(13) != 0
triggerall = NumTarget
trigger1 = target,StateNo = 5100
trigger2 = target,StateNo = 5120
Persistent = 0
var(13) = 0

By setting var(13) to -1 we stop further juggling. In this example we do it for all normal moves (but also true for command moves, some specials and DMs):
[State -2, Juggle Over]
type = VarSet
triggerall = !var(counter); or !NumHelper(counter), whichever method you use to set counters
trigger1 = P2StateType = A
trigger1 = NumTarget(200) || NumTarget(205) || NumTarget(210) || NumTarget(215) || NumTarget(230) || NumTarget(235) || NumTarget(240) || NumTarget(245)
trigger2 = P2StateType = A
trigger2 = NumTarget(400) || NumTarget(410) || NumTarget(430) || NumTarget(440) || NumTarget(600) || NumTarget(610) || NumTarget(630) || NumTarget(640)
IgnoreHitPause = 1
Persistent = 0
var(13) = -1

Setting var(13) to 1 is just as easy.

There are some delicate things about setting var(13) to 1 and -1. Let's take Kyo's strong Kai (scissors kick) as example. (Its both HitDefs must have "triggerall = !var(13)". This way it can't juggle, but will hit in Pre-Juggle phase.) The first hit sets var(13) to -1 only AFTER the cancel time for the second hit is over. Otherwise the second hit won't connect. And the second hit sets var(13) to 1.

Any questions? I'm sorry if this is still unclear to you but I have to leave now.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Byakko on September 12, 2007, 07:37:08 pm
Quote
triggerall = var(13) != 0
trigger1 = target,StateNo = 5100
trigger2 = target,StateNo = 5120
Triggerall numtarget or you'll get a debug flood no matter what.
Quote
I think you're mistaken about KOF XI juggle system's ugliness. There are defects in almost every game.
That's not quite an excuse to not fix them when you can though.
Quote
Vanessa's bug is there because that uppercot has wrong velocity. It had to be less for this unlimited juggling to be impossible.
It's true that usually, on a normal game, most of those things are unseen simply because the moves can physically not hit because of recovery time and hitvels. I find that perfectly normal. Though it bothers me a little when one is trying to set up a general rule - you're supposed to set up a rules to avoid those exceptions. See, you yourself used ArtMoney to remove all the natural limiters, and you now can test the rule alone. And, well, in those cases that can only means the rule has an error.

It's just rare to see someone use the var concept through the end, because people are lazy ; but, sorry to break your bubble, the concept itself is fairly old. Nice of you to round it up though.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 12, 2007, 07:43:48 pm
I guess I should take this arrogant post for a compliment? Thanks :)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: face_de_castor on September 12, 2007, 07:52:16 pm
Well, he told you to add "numtarget" in triggerall, plus he said "you aren't lazy". So I guess it was not-so arrogant after all. :P
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 12, 2007, 07:57:07 pm
elix: that's how bacon types, so do not mind the style.

the thing with num target is more srious, though as targets are dropped if you are not in a hit state, adn you will get out of it after you recover from a juggle move and go to the other one.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Dark Saviour on September 12, 2007, 08:17:37 pm
Elix < Is it me or you totally forget the counters in your juggle management?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Valodim on September 12, 2007, 08:18:28 pm
castor dude:

okaay... that post had no content except insulting a global mod... it got removed, and you reposted it.

Which got me to look at your more recent posts, which gets me to: see you in a week.

Oh, I also get to use this smiley - I love this smiley: :banneded:
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Byakko on September 12, 2007, 08:25:07 pm
Val, take care of your staff before going on the users.
Elix, I take lessons from you on arrogance. I'm far behind though.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 12, 2007, 08:35:26 pm
I didn't say that the code was a final version. I said that it could look like that. NumTarget would have been an obvious addition after I tried the code. Baiken, you can't make me think of myself worse than I do now. :)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 12, 2007, 08:37:28 pm
yeah, i guessed that counter hit checking along other stuff would be added in the real code.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Byakko on September 12, 2007, 08:39:37 pm
Elix : Scal is not talking about the code but about how you never mentionned it in your idea. Have you made plans already about implementing them ?

The numtarget was just a side note, a random reminder.
I wasn't being arrogant on purpose, I was merely stating things. If you know something is broken (yeah, infinite juggle is broken, especially when you have no extra defensive stuff like Burst in the Guilty Gear series), and if you're trying to set up a random rule, then you could just as well take the opportunity to fix it.
That's not an aggression, that's just a random statement.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 12, 2007, 08:45:15 pm
I have a free day tomorrow so I think I'll do it tomorrow. Counters was not mentioned in the idea, really, but I included it in the (pseude) code. We discussed counters yesterday with Reika. I haven't wrote a tutorial, you know. It was just my ideas.
if you're trying to set up a random rule, then you could just as well take the opportunity to fix it.
And what if I think that doesn't need fixing? ??? I prefer KOF XI combos over KOF 2002. Can you say I am wrong for feeling this? I will not use abnormal infinity jugglers on oniyaki though.
And as long as this random rule describes exactly the random behaviour of KOF XI juggles why not randomly use it? ;D
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Byakko on September 12, 2007, 08:58:11 pm
Oi, don't start acting as if I said you don't have a right to have a preference.
You're making a rule that happens to allow for broken combos because you like it, that's fine by me. Well, you've been talking for a while now as if you were doing something very serious (pun not intended), perfect, not broken and accurate, bashing people who have quite more experience on KoF than you do, so yeah, I kinda assumed you would want to make the rule as tight as possible.
Now if you tell me you make choices, obviously I won't make more comments than that, I don't mind choices (I've made choices before that were seen as broken) and it's not my place to tell you how to make your creations anyway.
The "rule" allows for broken juggles, you say you can manage it, that's fine by me. I'm not even one of your accuracy-freak, so if you say it's what you want, that's alright to me, I'm just making a statement.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 12, 2007, 11:30:21 pm
is not really about peference on haign broken combos, which bacon's words seems to imply. but a preference for accuracy.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Byakko on September 12, 2007, 11:33:24 pm
Accuracy to broken combos ?
Like I said, I have no qualm about him making choices, but your argumentation is really weak.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 12, 2007, 11:39:24 pm
Anyway, disregard all theory stuff since this is only for practical use: to implement accurate KOF XI juggling behavior. I don't doubt SNK has a different way of managing this. But as long as my character behaves the same way, who cares? And, Baiken... If you don't like KOF XI... Walk your way, citizen. ©
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 12, 2007, 11:48:08 pm
is not like kyo has any broken combos in kofxi bacon, it would be good if you knew what are you talking about, now if we were talking about 2001 kula, xi vanessa, xi gato, or someone else who would really benefit form derailing the topic like this ...

anyway, elix ganbatte !
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Byakko on September 13, 2007, 12:00:12 am
E, you try to know what you're talking about. He's talking about making a system, which can be taken as "not just for one given creation". Especially since you yourself have been asking to see it - implying again its use as a generic system not just meant for one given character.
I was suggesting ways to improve it, but if he doesn't want them, then it's alright.
And Elix, I've told you already that I didn't mind you using XI as a reference for accuracy, I'm only replying to E's stupid taunts, so drop your shit about me not letting you do what you like better. Geez, all I've been saying is that XI has a broken system, I haven't even told you to trash it, that's a mere statement, it's not about me liking XI or not.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 13, 2007, 12:18:55 am
Some people on MSN gave me some information which made me believe I wasn't right at some points. I surely wouldn't recommend this as a system for all characters. Let's just see if I can make it 100% accurate for one character and then we'll see if this will remain true to all of them. ;) Byakko, thanks for feedback. I guess I can get used to you (after implementing Byakko filter into my brain) ;D
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 13, 2007, 01:48:33 am
care to share that information ? that's why i prefer timing bassed.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on September 13, 2007, 08:33:31 am
There are particular moves in some characters which set unique CLSN2 behaviour for a hit opponent. For example, Kyo's weak Kai or Terry's power charge. Opponent's CLNS2 are totally vulerable on ascending, vulnerable some time of descending but in the midair of descending his CLSN2 disappear making him invincible to juggles. Some people define this as a rule for all juggles but I see this case as exception, a property of a unique attack.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 13, 2007, 06:06:35 pm
yah, i defined that as a case of timing, terry's power charge or kyo's shiki kai allow the oponent to be juggle N ticks, so that time only allows you to hit them whle they are going up and some time of descending. oneonly has to conut the ticks.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: akiraz on October 06, 2007, 02:23:53 am
Did this project die off? Cause that would be really sad:(
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cartoonfanatic on October 06, 2007, 02:27:58 am
Did this project die off? Cause that would be really sad:(
Be patient akiraz, he's probably working really hard on the project and fixing any bugs that might have made. Kyo is looking good Elix, best of luck to you.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on October 06, 2007, 10:22:27 pm
The project didn't die, I'm just taking a break. I need to rest from MUGEN. I think you'll get him before new year.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on December 31, 2007, 03:30:55 pm
Ooops, I was seriously wrong about "before the New Year" =\
Anyway I have an idea :) I want to make 6 different modes in him. Like Sander did. But unlike Sander's you'll be only able to change modes before the fight starts, i.e. when intro plays. KOF XI round icons for modes. Sounds, effects, everything XI's. And although different modes will have different moves, the gameplay (pausetimes, hittimes...) will be KOF XI. I plan on making 6 modes: Kyo 99, Kyo 2000-2002, Kusanagi, EX Kyo, Kyo MI, Serious Kyo (a mix mode). There'll be also a hidden mode which you can enter when playing Serious Kyo mode with 3 power bars ;) Each respective mode will be true to its origins. This should satisfy everyone: those who love classical KOF series with its mechanics (less juggling) & dislikes complicated controls & ton of commands on one character and those who love custom characters.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on December 31, 2007, 03:52:25 pm
Sounds good. I'll be looking forward to it. I think I already know which mode I will be choosing.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on December 31, 2007, 04:40:55 pm
I think I already know which mode I will be choosing.
Which one? :)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Siebzehn on December 31, 2007, 04:57:33 pm
I think I already know which mode I will be choosing.
Which one? :)
Are you Serious?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: C-Cool on December 31, 2007, 08:47:57 pm
I smell greatness in this creation...

Is it me, or am I right.

 ;D

Oh, yeah, my answer for which form I want to use can be generalized into one phrase...

"Why so SERIOUS?"
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on December 31, 2007, 09:46:13 pm
OK, OK, I get it :) Happy New Year :)

Now for sure :)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Leon Belmont on January 01, 2008, 01:28:44 am
I think I already know which mode I will be choosing.
Which one? :)
2000-2002.

I'm assuming that mode will have Orochinagi, 182 Shiki & Kamukura. 2k2 Kyo with 182 Shiki? Why not.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on January 01, 2008, 01:54:19 am
2000-2002.

I'm assuming that mode will have Orochinagi, 182 Shiki & Kamukura.
Yep ^__^
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on January 02, 2008, 12:18:30 am
I'm just happy to see that you're back on this project, because it was one of those I was really looking forward too.

The different modes is a very good idea. :)
Good continuation.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Basara Lapis on January 02, 2008, 05:55:41 am
It's great you still working on S-Kyo, I'm following it all this time ;) very good idea about select modes (I'll probably choose Kyo MI mode if you would released him someday ;P)

I have a few questions for you about minor things, not so important things like various guys are exposed here, just doubts I have about your Kyo:

-You said everything but modes, will be XI... that would incluides wins, intros (especially VS intros), palettes and every minor stuff on Kyo, or you'll add some stuff from past games (like '99 VS Shingo or 2k1 VS Iori intros, or 2k2 palettes, for example)?
-And about that, you'll add some of this stuff from CVS/SVC series (little things, like an intro VS Ryu, for example)?
-Some of your modes will incluides some of old-school KOF gameplay moves, like Dodge, Power Build, Guard Reversal and stuff like that as part of them?
-Super Cancel stuff are incluided in all modes or just in one or few modes?
-In MI mode, Kyo would make Stylish Moves from this game series or just will be an emulation of his moves (like Ahuron's Kyo MI, without the new outfit, obviously)?
-May I should recommend a CVS/SVC mode for your Kyo, or isn't in your plans?

Those're my questions, I see your Kyo will be one of the best ones for MUGEN, keep going with him ;)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on January 02, 2008, 12:19:49 pm
-You said everything but modes, will be XI... that would incluides wins, intros (especially VS intros), palettes and every minor stuff on Kyo, or you'll add some stuff from past games (like '99 VS Shingo or 2k1 VS Iori intros, or 2k2 palettes, for example)?
Serious Kyo will have all intros and win poses from all games plus more, but I wonder if I should connect them to modes or just leave them out of it.
-And about that, you'll add some of this stuff from CVS/SVC series (little things, like an intro VS Ryu, for example)?
What do you mean by CVS/SVC stuff? He will have an intro VS. Ryu.
-Some of your modes will incluides some of old-school KOF gameplay moves, like Dodge, Power Build, Guard Reversal and stuff like that as part of them?
Yes.
-Super Cancel stuff are incluided in all modes or just in one or few modes?
In all modes.
-In MI mode, Kyo would make Stylish Moves from this game series or just will be an emulation of his moves (like Ahuron's Kyo MI, without the new outfit, obviously)?
I'll try and make him as close to MI:A as possible. OTG combos included.
-May I should recommend a CVS/SVC mode for your Kyo, or isn't in your plans?
What do you have in mind for it?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Basara Lapis on January 02, 2008, 03:59:21 pm
-And about that, you'll add some of this stuff from CVS/SVC series (little things, like an intro VS Ryu, for example)?
What do you mean by CVS/SVC stuff? He will have an intro VS. Ryu.
-May I should recommend a CVS/SVC mode for your Kyo, or isn't in your plans?
What do you have in mind for it?
Well, I mean things like Exceed Move and Dash (like in SVC), Parry and/or Just Defense (like in CVS2), and the combos you can do in both.
It could be work as a new mode, but it's just a suggerence, you decided to take it or not :)

Thanks for the answers in my post, I didn't think you answered so fast :) good luck with Kyo, I know you'll make a good job on him
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on January 02, 2008, 04:09:13 pm
Well, I mean things like Exceed Move and Dash (like in SVC), Parry and/or Just Defense (like in CVS2), and the combos you can do in both.
It could be work as a new mode, but it's just a suggerence, you decided to take it or not :)
Let's see. He'll have a BC mode, he'll also have Kusanagi Rage in Serious Kyo mode which is both very much like Exceed. I wrote about dash in my Kyo previously... (http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=56078.200 reply #205). What about his CvS combos? List any that aren't available in KOF games. To put it short, I'm not fond of CvS games and I don't plan on making a CvS mode. Besides there are already several good CvS Kyos out there.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Basara Lapis on January 02, 2008, 04:26:11 pm
I see, no problem then... thanks for the answer :)
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Tayobktailz on January 04, 2008, 12:17:01 am
 :sugoi: :sugoi: :sugoi: :sugoi: :sugoi:
im looking forward to the release of this one!! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on May 27, 2011, 05:13:49 pm
Hey, everyone, it's been a while. It's been such a while, in fact, that I at last feel the desire to continue this character. In the past few years the feeling of regret has been my guest whether I thought about my only unfinished MUGEN project. Not just because I've failed to meet some expectations I've managed to arise here. But because this project, Serious Kyo, is one of the things that are left unfinished in my life. I've put so much time and effort in it and couldn't keep myself interested long enough to finish it. And that is one trait I want to get rid of.

Three years have passed and with my new experiences I have new ideas as to where this character should go. I don't care about the stuff I made up in the first post anymore (about Ken Masters and kicking techniques). The new concept behind Serious Kyo is ("Why so Serious?"):

"Did you ever wonder how in heaven Kyo Kusanagi has been able to beat Rugal Bernstein? Or should I say was being able to beat him every time since 1994 till 2002 whenever he stood in the way? Because if you look at them and compare gameplay-wise, Rugal is one broken piece of a character with uber attacks such as Genocide Cutter and Kaiser Wave, and Kyo is GIMP. "Then it must be that, you know. Good guys always win, screw plot justifications", one might think. Well, that's one way of thinking. Another one is basically what this character's idea is. Kyo Kusanagi is F*ing STRONG when he becomes serious and is able to fight on common ground with Rugal when he's up to it."

The character's main feature is this mode which is called 'Serious Kyo', introducing fully new gameplay to Kyo, with different and powered up normals, different specials (with some of his previous DMs as specials) and new DMs. He's to be treated as a KOF Boss character because he'll be balanced accordingly.

Serious Kyo won't be the only mode for this character, there will be 12 modes overall, including classic 94, 2002, XI, EX Kyo, Kusanagi etc.
(http://rghost.ru/8199931/image.png)

The character itself is being made basing on KOF XI gameplay with as much accuracy as possible.

As of now I'm rusty with MUGEN code and require the assistance of those willing to give it. First I'll need to know what has changed since last MUGEN beta was around. Because now it's MUGEN 1.0 and all. Should I start off by reading new MUGEN documentation? And things I should be aware of when converting him to 1.0 version?

First thing for me to do is mode selection screen. I have the concept in mind and know how it should look (http://rghost.ru/8201731/image.png) and feel but I still don't know how to realize it. After I've done that, it's Y HitVels. I hope Vans will be of assistance here because I haven't been able to find out correct Y Vels and acceleration values of KOF XI.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on May 27, 2011, 05:40:05 pm
Nice to see you back to track, I was looking forward to Kyo.

What Mugen 1.0 allows is:
- palette change on the fly, so you can have more than 12 palettes for EACH mode. This makes use of sffv2, which Will be easy to use once FF3 is out.
- AI activation is 100% reliable.
- For changes compared to winmugen, there's a page in the docs at elecbyte's site, and also in the tuto section here. Some changes in def file and hitdefs.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Elix on May 27, 2011, 05:48:40 pm
Wow. WOW! I have to think of the possibilities. :D (like Kyo turning into buffed Kusanagi with an HSDM aka Orochi Leona...)
Does it mean I don't have to use WinAne's AI activation states anymore?
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Zero-Sennin on May 27, 2011, 06:05:09 pm
You don't, AILevel can do the job of detecting when the AI is and isn't in control much more easily, and that in turn makes it a lot easier to tell the AI how to use moves. No more false positives.
Title: Re: Serious Kyo Kusanagi
Post by: Cybaster on May 27, 2011, 06:21:40 pm
You can look at ryu mvc1, Rajaa's Rogue wip and Kamekaze's Sagat for examples of palette change.
Also, the AI is scalable depending on the difficulty settings in the options.