The Mugen Fighters Guild - King of Fighters E blog

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#281 June 19, 2008, 06:13:56 pm

The world is what you make of it

Thanks again [E]. If there's more please let me know. I'll update the glitches section later today or tomorrow.

I figured I'd do something a little different this time as it seems as though, questions arose as to what exactly do I do with these characters. Could be seen as a little developper's journal I guess. As much for myself as for anyone else who's interested in modifying things, but need some kind of start point. Also, people are free/encouraged to pick out flaws in the system I currently have and suggest alternate methods that might improve speed or quality. I'll just do this with Vanessa seeing how this'll probably be difficult with my limited picture creating ability. I'll continue to update it here on this reply only.

Start:

Friday June 13, 2008
Conceptualizing Vanessa's balance and moveset. Compare them to all moves she's had in all games and to all characters currently in KOFE via computer print outs of skills list (as seen in the pdf). Look for things like damage, invinicibility frames, move types, blockability, etc...

Saturday-Sunday June 14-15, 2008
Vanessa is a female character, thus she gets a Sexy KO. Due to the fact that there isn't a pre-existing Sexy KO for her, I have to make one. [E] has provided me with all nude templates from which to from. Normally doing the 5 sprites required would take me 1 day, but I'm pretty worn out this week and it takes longer. I use King's sexy ko as the sample from which to base my shading and shaping on. I decide, Vanessa will have a more Yuri style KO where only the top rips apart.

Wednesday June 18, 2008
I've been number crunching like crazy at work all week, so I had no energy to work on Vanessa until now. Now that I have the Sexy KO sprite, I move on to the conversion phase. The Vanessa that I'm using is the one from Ahuron because it has the XI sprites. I transport the AIR, SND and SFF files over to the template folder and change the blank .def file to reflect these changes. Once she's set up, I use Fighter Factory for most of everything else. Since I use a modified version of CCI's base and gameplay and that doesn't mech with Ahuron's characters, I have to double check that all basic states are correct. Things like state 40 for pre-jump or 100 for pre-run, 170 for time over and so on. Basically all these states must be universal. 100 = pre-run, 101 = running, 102 = run stop for all characters for example. 360 = dodge back, always.

I also have to add state some states like 950 and 20000 usually (small hop and SP KO screen respectively). Guard states and back hop usually need to be modified from an animation standpoint so they don't glitch up (characters getting stuck in guard stun for example). Once all the basic states are correct and matched, I do a check for sound. Sound is the most inconsistant thing in Mugen files I find. People just number them however they want. Base sounds are always numbered the same. jump = 0,0/run = 0,3 and so on. I also add the correct sound to the special KO and the dodge voices.

I also have to make absolutely sure that the dodges are all 33 ticks. No one gains an advantage by have a longer dodge or a far travelling dodge. it can have as many animations as it needs, but will always last 33 ticks. The back hop is similar in this regard. Back hop always travels the same distance for all characters. While running is different, back hops felt like they needed to be universal to maintain balance, so I've programmed them that way.

Next I quickly check the throw state animations to make sure there's only a single 1 tick throw activation with no body collision (to avoid bind state glitches) and that the throw at no point has a collision that allow it or the opponent to be hit while it's underway. I must also create throw cancel states. Since Vanessa didn't have the appropriate sprites for this (same as guard crush), I have to rip them. Normally I use Kawak for missing sprites (sometimes there are other base sprites missing too), but because this is an XI character I require Wuwo's rips at mugenchina. I download the pack, pull the sprites I need and modify them in Photoshop so their palettes match (depending on the pallette, this can take a long time to index correctly).

That's as far as I can get today. Normally I can combine this with the hitstate check and wins/intros mod and the basic attacks programming, but I'm too tired.

June 19, 2008
Before I can start playing around with the attacks and do in game testing, I've gotta program all the hitstates. This is the part that can get pretty long, depending on how the original author formatted them. I've got a template with every single hit state marked on it and every single character must have, not only the animation number, but the corresponding animation to that number (state 5052 being air spin hitstate for example). All sprites used in the hitstates have to be the exact same number across the board as well. If they're not, they'll screw up bind states like throws which call upon these states in the changeanim2 statetypes that use specific sprites (Rugal's SDM for example). I note that Vanessa's missing her wire attack hit animation which I use as the hit.type = up animation, so I go into KOF 2k1 and rip them. Once all the hitstates are correct, I add in the sprites and animations used for her sexy ko.

Last thing I do is check the rest of the sounds to check for any glaring omissions. Ahuron's Vanessa doesn't have gethit sounds (hit grunts and moans), so I journey over to Galbadia Hotel to rip them. Bad news, Galbadia is down. So I check to see if another version of Vanessa has the sounds I need. Vanessa 2000 by [Vanessa] has them. I rip them. This alone give [Vanessa] a contribution credit, regardless if it was one rip or three. Vanessa also doesn't have hitsounds consistant with the other characters I made, so I add some of those in as well.

Last thing on the agenda today is fixing up Vanessa's portrait and mini portrait. I use 2000 when I can because I love that art style, but not everyone in my game was in 2000. Lucky for me Vanessa is. I rip the portraits and convert their palettes. I do one last scan of the animations. I realize Vanessa doesn't have a counter attack animation that I like (the alpha counter style attack). Vanessa's short on unique animations as it is (using the same animation for both far and close strong kick attacks). I pull 1/2 the animation from her weak teleport follow up. Now she's ready for intro/basics and initial testing. But, I'll do that tomorrow...

June 20, 2008
Not really all that happy with the speed at which Vanessa's progressing considering she's a relatively simple conversion (unlike a Chizuru for example). My new job's just wearing me out to the point where I come home tired and brain dead. Oh well.

I immediately go to work with the intros. Usually this is simple. There's no gameplay mechanics to fix, so I just port over the original code and that's it. Ahuron's timing for voices and the length of the intros are awkward though, so I touch them up. I noted the head scratching intro and blow a kiss intro for Vanessa. Since those will be used with Mary and Benimaru (no Ramon in my game) respectively, and I haven't started them yet, I don't touch those for now. I then go to the win poses. These are all done well. I'm not a fan of the blurry voice currently being used, so I might grab some more from [Vanessa]'s version. That'll be a final touch up though.

I go to the basics, which is already in a pre-constructed format and start editing. Since all basic values are already inputted, all I need to do is, check the hitdefs to make sure the triggered time corresponds to the animation (jab animation hits on elem 3, so I swap), I check to see if the basic is a 2 hit attack (and add an additional hitdef + a velocity edit so both hits can connect correctly), adjust the spark xy, if there is movement in the attack, I add the appropriate velset or posadd values and now since the sparks are finally universalized, I just change the sound effects. Since there are plenty of sound effects that are unique to certain characters, I haven't bothered to universalize them. Vanessa has some KOF XI fx that I'm looking to keep for example.

Getting to the close strong kick attack, I decide I really don't like the way it's currently set up (a quicker version of the far strong kick), so I give her the f +wk animation. Thus I'm removing her overhead unique attack. I make the decision in this case because she already has 2 special attacks that can function as overheads if I need them to and because I'll still use the animation for Vanessa's unique chain, so there's no real gameplay lost here. I will complete the crouching and jumping attacks tomorrow. My energy's on fizzle right now. I quickly go in to KOFE and test. I go to arcade mode and use the f1 (instant kill opponent key) to check the winposes. They're good. Really not liking the sound though. I go into watch to check out the special leap in intro created by Sander and used by CCI for team battles. It activates properly. I use f2 while the computer has Vanessa in a DM to drain her life and see if the sexy ko works. It does. Test 1 is successful. More to come tomorrow.

June 21, 2008
Spending the day with Vanessa today. I immediately finish up the rest of the basic attacks and test her out. After adjusting a few sparks and sounds, I play around a bit with her new close strong kick. I make it an air.fall on the second hit. Happy I do a few more adjustments to the rest of her including making her jumping strong punch a 2 hitter like it was in 2000 and move on to the throws. Once again, this is basically a copy and paste affair since Ahuron did a good job with them. I adjust the punch version to do an extra hit (I removed the button mashing ability from all moves in my game cause I don't like it) and I test the throw cancelling. A few position fixes to a couple moves and basics are done. Breather, then onto special attacks.

There are some big changes here. First, I'm removing the wavering stance (the semi-sidestep stance), because the gameplay I'm going for doesn't include sidesteps. Mary's sidestep and Shermie's will also be removed. However, the counterpunch follow up remains as it's own move. It works very similar to Takuma's, except the autoguard doesn't last as long and cover as many frames. I port over my modified autoguard code that all autoguard moves use and set up the move. Since the move has a heavy autoguard, the punch itself will no longer snuff fireballs. That makes the move way too versatile and broken.

Next I fix up the cross punch. I give the strong one a slight delay, but it moves forward. Since the counterpunch lost it's anti fireball hit, I give it to the cross punch here. It makes sense since it creates a type of "projectile" as well. Since I like the way Ahuron coded the charging uppercut attack, I leave it more or less intact aside from the smaller variables like damage, poweradding, etc... For the body shots special, as mentioned above, I'm removing button tapping from my game, so here the extra hits are automatic. Adds some risk to the move, but it's still effective at its close range game and it has good juggling properties. WP hits for 4 hits, SP does 6.

Last move in is Vanessa's "teleport" type move. Both retreating and advancing version retain their punch follow ups and I alter the input code to make them easier to execute. I figure I'll try out Ahuron's collision reduction over a nothitby code, since only low hits should connect. This makes the move more KOF accurate anyway. I add an extra tick of animation so the teleport covers slightly more ground. I touch up a few more collisions and animations and I'm finished the specials.

I test her out and make a few adjustments for hit times/velocities. The biggest change I make though is removing all the nothitby codes Ahuron had in these moves, to balancer Vanessa out a bit more. I do however, give a nothitby code to her strong cross punch for the initial startup to make the move slightly more useful. Also, Vanessa's teleport startup cannot be hit by jumping attacks. Gives it a few more possibilities. As I test, I realize that I still need to give Vanessa her stage and music. I made my newport stage especially for her (was release about a month ago). For KOFE the stage needs to be modified. Once fixed, I pick her music. Since all music levels are far too quiet, I have to go into Cooledit and pump them up. I use Elizabeth's theme from XI. It's battle ready, so I don't need to do any further editing.

I start the DMs. First up is her crazy puncher (have to check the names for all these moves), the close up attack. I don't like the way it looks in KOF, so I mod the second hit to something more savage looking. There are some timing issues I touch up. Biggest problem though is Ahuron didn't create a state for the last hit (opponent flies into the air and twirls until they hit the ground). So I go in and make it. I do her Ranbuu next. This one was coded pretty well, so I just touch up a few timing issues, damage and shorten the miss animation lag. For her SDM, I decide to go with the XI version of the LDM ranbuu. I create an animation that quickens the third last hit of the regular attack, then automatically interrupt the move with another super pause into the LDM "tack on" Ahuron's already coded. There's some glaring damage issues that take me a while to figure out. I add the SDM bgfx and call it a day.

June 22, 2008
Since Vanessa's almost done, I'm happy and I decide to take her for a couple of rounds in KOFE. She feels good, although I'm not a strong player of her style (anticipation type defense/offense style). I'd say she's an intermediate character like Whip. As I play, I note a few glitches. She's going into hitstates that don't exist, making a lot of them look funny. I go in and delete all non-essential hitstates. I keep playing and discover a glitch with Kasumi's high counter that causes it to animate funny with all characters. I go in and fix that. Everything else looks good, so I start the HSDM.

The HSDM from 2k2 was animated poorly in my opinion and Ahuron's copied it to a T. I'm gonna change it up a bit to give it more umph. First, I rip Nyankoro's Krizalid longer range wave instead of the short one Vanessa uses and borrow the axis. I adjust for Vanessa and remove the explode codes Ahuron made for the move, replacing them with a large projectile that travels. This way, even if you don't hit up close, the projectile has good range and can hit for modest damage. To counteract the damage segregation and to make the move look more painful, I add an extra hit. Vanessa now hits with the straight punch before the projectile comes out (only if the up close punch connected though). I think it looks way more HSDM worthy now. I adjust the hit velocities and change p2's hitstate animation for the rise up after the initial hit and take her for a test run. Since I used sprites and not animations for the hitstate change I immediately notice a mistake. Not everyone has a wire attack hit sprites (2 of them). I use the wire hits for the up animation, but the actual wire hits 6005,0 & 6005,1 aren't always used for none 2k1 characters like Kasumi and Chizuru. I have to go into each and add/adjust these sprite for everyone now so this move will work and to universalize something I missed up until now.

Now that all the moves and touch ups are complete. I go in and implement the new combo system implemented below. To give a better idea of how it works, I showcase it in the Vanessa video I create for youtube. A brand new Unique chain is added (state 250). I test, it works. I remove the SDM's ability to chain due to the heavy damage that can be inflicted (600+ damage). She's done. I rar her up and send her over to Missfairy for AI coding and wait for her to finish. If anyone bothered to read all this, I salute you. It's pretty damn long and it doesn't even cover everything. Well that's the general picture of a KOFE mod. Hopefully you'll enjoy Vanessa once she's released. Cheers!

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 10:51:46 pm by swipergod

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#282 June 21, 2008, 09:35:40 pm

The world is what you make of it

Final say on KOFE's combo system:

As I work on Vanessa, I've been conceptualizing the combo system for the game as suggested by others. Personally, I hate combos and was happy with basic two in ones and jump attack started combos. But you've asked for more so I've developed a system I'm happy with. Like the DM/SDM/HSDM system, I'm going to lock it in as a KOFE gameplay standard so I don't have to debate about it anymore and just call it part of the game.

2 in 1 system:

This is the basic attack -> special/DM combo system. Some complained about being able to chain a close SP, but not a ducking one. The old system had specific attacks that would 2 in 1 and wouldn't generalize any SP attack for example. Simple is better in this case and I've listened. From now on, if close SP chains, then crouching SP will chain as well. Makes it easier for people to remember. Characters that can chain with close SK cannot chain with a trip however. Also as a rule, far strong attacks cannot chain except in exception cases (like Whip and Iori). You'll have to test characters to see which of their moves can combo cause that's too much for me to put in the PDF.

Unique Chain system:

This is a unique combo that ALL characters will have. It links a single basic weak attack to either a "chaining version" of a unique move or a strong basic move that can then be linked to a special/DM. This does not function like a 2 in 1. There is only one weak attack that will start the chain. I.E. If standing far weak punch is the chain starter, then close weak punch and crouching weak punch will NOT chain. The chaining part of the attack (second attack) comes out quickly and recovers quickly and will be easy to combo out of. Opponents hit by this attack will have their hit velocities severely reduced to simplify combo-ing into the special/DM. This is the easiest way to link to your specials/DMs, but is restricted to the sole starting point. Also note, like with 2 in 1s, not all special/DM moves can be comboed into. In fact 95% of all HSDM cannot be comboed into.

Examples of Unique chains: Iori: close lk, -> sp (far sp animation), -> Maiden Masher
Vanessa: far lk, -> sk (XI overhead animation), -> her Ranbuu

Same chain system:

Some weak attacks can combo into themselves again or other weak attacks. Rapidly tapping wp for Terry, for example, will see his close jab chain into another close jab, a far jab or crouching jab. Not all characters can to this, but balance it out with other advantages (Whip's range is one example). In combination with the unique chain system, this can tack on a couple extra jab hits to your combo. Hey, every little bit helps right.

That's it for the combo system. Comment now if you have other ideas or a change or two to suggest, because once it's implemented, it's final. I won't go back and re-edit all my characters 20 times over after all. Also note that I'm not a fan of XI or a huge fan of 2k2 and do not like move "cancelling", so dream cancels and so on won't be seen in my game. Sorry.

I'll start this combo system with Vanessa onward. Since I'm not releasing an update of my main game this wave, these changes won't be happening with the current roster yet, so no patches, just patience.

Other news: Duck King, Eiji and Xiang Fei are now a part of the roster. Only one spot remains. I'm replacing Kensou this wave with either Billy Kane or Yamazaki because they already have alphas and it's less work for me to do. Next wave, I'm replacing Andy with Blue Mary. I want to implement her leg snap and arm snap animations for everyone sooner rather than later. Andy will have to wait until after the MotW Wave.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 01:47:27 am by swipergod

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#283 June 22, 2008, 11:05:38 pm

The world is what you make of it

Short & Sweet. Vanessa's done. Just sent her over to get some AI from Missfairy. While we wait, I'll post her video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4yOdPdiDqmc

At the end, you can see the Same Chain system at work and the Unique Chain system. If all is well, she should be released this week.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#284 June 29, 2008, 03:37:47 am

The world is what you make of it

My apologies for not updating this topic as regularly as I usually do. I'm pretty much drowning in another project at the moment. I'm still doing this project though and am confirming that Jhun Hoon will be the final entry into my roster. In fact I was working on him for most of the past week and only have the SDM and HSDM to complete. However that won't happen until next weekend probably.

For those that are interested Jhun's style, like Angel's has been heavily modified. The stances have been removed, Kusajin is a f,d,df +p move, I've turned the kick slashes into their own move that work like a combination of Whip and Yamazaki's qcb +p attacks. And for those people who complained that Kim didn't get his qcb +p x3 move, well Jhun has it now, so it's still in the game so to speak. Plus I've given Jhun May Lee's "Big Kick" DM as a grab DM. You'll see everything in the vid next weekend.

Finally, this is the final team roster. If you hate the fact that Ash is teamed up with Kyo and Iori or anything else, my suggestion is to go play KOF '99, select Xiangfei and hit the start button during play, cause that pretty much how I feel about changing this at this point.

Edited (swapped Ash with Duck):

Hero Team:    Neo Cartel:
Kyo, Iori, Benimaru, Duck    K', Kula, Maxima, Angel

Fatal Fury: Justice Soldiers:
Terry, Andy, Joe, Mai    Athena, Kim, Jhun, Kensou

Art of Fighting: Ikari Warriors:
Ryo, Robert, Yuri, Kasumi    Leona, Ralf, Clark, Whip

Gorgeous Fighters: Desciples of Orochi:
King, Mary, Vanessa, Xiangfei Yashiro, Shermie, Vice, Mature

Villains Team: Young Wolves:
Ash, Billy, Yamazaki, Eiji Rock, Gato, Hotaru, Jenet

Sub Bosses:    Bosses:
Krauser, Geese, Karate, Mr. Big    Orochi, Goenitz, Chizuru, Rugal

More updates next weekend. I'm just too busy right now to do more.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 06:36:39 pm by swipergod

RunningWild

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#285 June 29, 2008, 05:40:26 am

Me Bouncy

Why is Duck King on the villains team? He's not a bad guy.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#286 June 29, 2008, 04:36:23 pm

The world is what you make of it

True, true. I think from the many posts before, the general idea was with the roster I have it's pretty much impossible to make every team a logical one. I just grouped Duck King with other FF/AOF characters, same as Ash with other KOF characters, Vanessa with other women, Angel with other NESTS story characters, etc... When you play the game feel free to change up the roster to suit your own tastes. I just need something to work with so I can arrange the slots in my game.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Leon Belmont

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#287 June 30, 2008, 10:46:24 am

Swap Duck with Ash and there we have it.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#288 June 30, 2008, 06:38:04 pm

The world is what you make of it

Done. Also Jhun is done aside from testing and the like. Missfairy's still working on Vanessa, so Jhun will probably be a next week thing. I'll try to post a vid on Friday.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

pmc1416

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#289 June 30, 2008, 11:53:35 pm

wassup yall i like fighting games i like snk most

Keep at it

http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=62286.0

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#290 July 01, 2008, 05:20:17 am

The world is what you make of it

lol. I love the sig pmc1416.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#291 July 02, 2008, 01:39:55 am

The world is what you make of it

Silly me forgot that today would be my nation's national holiday. So squeezed in a little bit of time to post Jhun's vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZOwU_iEduk

Have to add the chain system then it's off to Missfairy for AI coding. I'll probably start Yuri sometime this weekend. I've decided to go with her '99 look because I can get the most special intros out of it. That means there's gonna be a lot of sprite ripping since I'm using Juke's XI Yuri as the template. Shouldn't be too bad though. She's take a little longer to do, that's all.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Dark Symphony

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#292 July 04, 2008, 10:18:47 am

I'm a llama!

The same chain system looks like it will guarantee a very combo heavy, combo-centric game. You might end up with something closer to marvel than KOF. Not that that's a bad thing. Were those chains going to be cancellable?

And why eliminate all the fun character specific features like stances and sways? Just curious....

(Forgive me for my criticisms, I like to say constructive things).

After viewing Vanessa's video I think the game is coming along nice. It's good that things will be universal. The Rick Stroud SDM/HSDM/whatever it is looks weird with the hit pause being so long before the wind kicks in. It kind of makes the wind come off weak. The multi-hit DM where she teleports back and forth... maybe she can finish the super on the front side of her opponent so she isn't uppercutting the back of someone's head at the end which just looks weird?

Another tiny nitpick... why the swaying before the big super?

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#293 July 04, 2008, 08:02:17 pm

The world is what you make of it

I always enjoy topical discussions like this and your comments in general DS. Let's see:

Same chain system will vary from character to character, but there will always be some kind of weak linking. With Vanessa, for example, to balance out all the chaining she can do with weak attacks, she can't 2 in 1 a weak attack into a Special or DM. That's when you have to same chain into a unique chain. Other characters may or may not depending. System's still in the test phase. I added this combo system because of the high demand of people that wanted combos. I'm still limiting the game's juggling values when I can though, so it won't feel too much like MVS.

I think after discussing this I realized when I say I'm trying to simplify gameplay, what I mean is reduce the initial learning curve so all characters are accessible to new KOF players. Stances, while great in technically heavy games feels too complex for the kind of system I'm trying to achieve. Instead, I'm trying to expand on things that already exist such as adding a third counter system for Kyo and Xiangfei or Air to Ground throws for Mary, Clark and Yashiro. There's already so much variety in KOF gameplay (which is why it's my fav fighting franchise). I also find cancellable sidesteps to be extremely unbalanced in this kind of gameplay with dodges because you basically choose the amount of your nothitbyframes and where you want to end up.

Yah, I was thinking that after watching it a few times. I'll see what it looks like with the windwave ignoring the hitpause. The SDM looks weird, but I'm pretty sure that's how it was in XI (she used to grab in older versions). I'll check it out.

She sways cause both her and Rick swayed before doing their respective versions in the game as the DM start up (I'm 90% sure on this). It's just more noticeable in my version cause HSDM pauses are so long in my game. Plus, it makes sense cause she can't be hit while starting up/in the sway, so no biggy.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

sander

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#294 July 05, 2008, 02:23:43 am

Ikuze~!

Looking at how fast you are doing your "edits" of existing MUGEN characters - I would be surprised if the quality will be good. Did you go in and check that every animation, alignment, clsn, velocity (X and Y), damage, damage multiplier, Hit and Guard pauses, Priority, Hitvels, Powergain, cmd cancels, combo limitations, chains etc... are accurate (or at least close to it..) for all the characters on your roster? And also which KOF did you use as your base, cause each one has very subtle BUT gameplay changing differences.

If you did check everything and made sure they are accurate for all of them, then you need to get a life

, kidding aside, if you did that, you have just allowed me to re-retire in peace. - If not, then I go

in my little corner. If you are just aiming to do minor edits to existing characters to match your "tastes" then forgive me for being a hardcore KOF freak.

Also how much of a KOF player are you, do you play competitive games, or at least challenge some 8 year old kid at arcades (do they still have arcades

;), or do you just play at home vs ai..? If you at least play VS games with other players and win some decent games then cool, if not - I have to stress that you need to listen to [E]'s blabber more about gameplay and combo issues, cause he is usually right with that.

At least you have [E] to guide you, you can be sure he knows his KOF stuff, which is reassuring. Hope that you know your stuff too - Good luck with your project.

Music Site
Future MUGEN Gaming Site, MUGEN 1.0 Compatible
Reviews - Future MUGEN reviews site

Leon Belmont

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#295 July 05, 2008, 03:02:23 am

Since you used Jin's Iori as a base, I think you should check the alignment. Last time I checked, the sprite alignment for most his characters are incorrect. Also, I hope you recoded most (if not all) his HitDefs because once again Jin does not have accurate HitDefs. He also doesn't have accurate velocities. And one last thing which is also important is that Jin's characters don't have accurate CLSNs, you're going to have to draw the CLSNs yourself for everything that come from KOF94-2003. But for any moves from XI or NBC I guess you can't do much about that. I guess this goes for every Jin base you used.

My bad if you already addressed this, but in my opinion, it's better to take a base when it's a solid base. CCIronMugen's characters are solid bases (the ones currently available from his site, don't use his outdated characters). But when there are no solid bases, you should rip the sprites with correct alignment, and start from the beginning yourself.

The thing with taking other's work and trying to expand on them or fix them is that it can get very tedious; looking for the used and unused variables, taking away the current system and replacing them with your own, fixing or changing chains and HitDefs and the like, there is a pretty big chance you will break something else on the way. It's much more convenient if you coded everything yourself from the getgo, that way, you know what you coded and when something goes wrong you can troubleshoot the problem easier.

Also when there are moves with weird properties, that don't knockdown or hit like normals, you should take the data from the real game using ArtMoney.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#296 July 05, 2008, 04:29:25 pm

The world is what you make of it

Thank you both for your deep insight.

There have been complaints already that some characters have been bad/not game accurate. Although I believe the correct wording was "laughable". I chose the base from a pre-existing characters, so I don't have to throw together an air and sff because I know how time consuming that is and would most likely double the time it takes me to make a character if not triple. I've put aside another year and a bit to do this project, but 2 or 3 years is pushing it. I'm doing most stuff on my own (except for AI which is all Missfairy). Things might change if I can get more help. The project's only 7 months old, so there's still plenty that can happen between now and then.

I do go in and adjust values like poweradd, juggling, blockdamage, high/low/mid/air/couch blockable, posadd, velsets etc... From what I've been told, priorities should all be the same and it's collision boxes and nothit defs that'll determine the game's priority. That's the system I'm using anyway. Works pretty well and makes the bosses cheap without hiking their life and power levels. I do go in and adjust animations and axis when I test out a character and notice that something looks/animates oddly. To be honest, there are times when the animation looks like crap in a KOF game as well though (compare Yuri's SDM version of her multi-kick ranbu to weird looking LDM in XI), so I try to fix up that stuff so the animation looks smoother, velocities make more logical sense or hit impacts give more "umph" when needed. I know there's a big movement out there for KOF acuracy in Mugen, but sometimes (varying on personal opinion of course) it feels like they miss the boat on some things. I'm sure when you've played a KOF game you though, "well this move could work better like this" or "this move is so useless, why didn't they do it like this". Maybe you didn't. I could be reaching here.

The project is still a beta, so I'm just trying to get characters out there first to find out if there's major gameplay/balance issues. Once they're resolved, I'll start with the hitbox sizes and axis positioning type of stuff as that's the kind of stuff that I'm probably going to struggle through for the first little bit and will need a touch of guidance with.

I had no real challengers in Winnipeg, where I grew up. I was a very good street fighter/darkstalkers player, a mediocre VS series player and SNK wasn't big on people's list of competitive gaming. Such a shame. I beat on plenty of 8 year olds hoping one day they'd come back to whoop me. Hasn't happened yet. I have horrible dexterity, which is why I hate combo heavy games, although I also find it a waste of someone's quarter to have them stuck in the air getting juggled the whole match, just so someone can show off how good they are at finding things gaming testers missed. I feel for the little people, who'd at least hope to have a bit of fun off that quarter before dying. Hardcore gaming may be no place for cubs in some people's opinion, but it's that mentality that caused most of my fellow Winnipegers to get scared away from some really great games.

[E] is fantastic and I'm glad he's helped me as much as he has so far. Sorry my skills aren't good enough yet to re-retire you Sander. Maybe, 1 day there'll be someone who does take up that call. I'm just trying to get people interested in the full game aspect and sharing benefits Mugen aspect with this project to give a glimmer of what can actually be done with this ancient tool instead of making a few characters that don't mesch with the rest of the characters in a franchise made by another creator.

ArtMoney. I'll look into that. I've never heard of that program before. Thanks again.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Leon Belmont

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#297 July 05, 2008, 04:50:20 pm

I can rip sprites with perfect alignment from KOF'94 to KOF2002. It's not very difficult. So if you need anything in that department I'm happy to help out.

I can find some velocities as well. Keyword: some, not all. & I'm happy to beta test or check your characters for anything.

So I'm here if you ever need me for those things.

Bastard Mami

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#298 July 05, 2008, 05:05:10 pm

the 80% and the 90% accuracy techniques for hitdefs are rather simple and fast, they could be used.

Dark Symphony

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#299 July 05, 2008, 06:58:52 pm

I'm a llama!

I'm glad you're open for discussion swipe!

I agree that taking preexisting work and editing it can make a project take far shorter. It's rare in actual development that a programmer would ever even touch an actual sprite as far as creating it. And a character programmer probably never touches a stage.

As far as your philosophy on "simple", oversimplifying for beginners leads to things like Smash Brothers Brawl. A game so simple and neutered that it homogenizes the skill levels of the practiced and the practicing. This is what they were going for with that game and it pleases new players who don't know better but angers both those who were skilled in the previous version (melee), those who started brawl with more skill than others and those who attempt to get better but find their progress artificially hindered by the game.

Fighting games have never been "friendly", much like FPS', due to, well, just how they are. They are competitive by nature. They put you, one vs one, directly against someone else. Even worse, there's often no group to roll with or other allies that can carry you. As a result, "accessibility" is always an issue. Some games try to artificially acknowledge this (like Smash) by adding a lot of randomness and zaniness. Others, like Tekken 6 and SF4, have added specific in-game features tailored to assist the losing player for the "comeback" which creates a weird cycle because now the less skilled get an advantage and have increased their chances to win... until, of course, they become skilled.

The people who will spend time on your games will not appreciate these things.

I use this philosophy: Attract non-competitive players (the ones who do not like the hard things) with looks and features. Flashy moves, cool characters... things like that.

Attract the competitive players with the deep stuff. I think you can have technical things and not throw off new players. I take tricky things like, say, Jhun's stances, and I simplify them (I don't remove them). Much like 2003 did. I agree with you that things shouldn't be tricky to do.Or too tricky to defend against. 99-00 Jhun's stances were tricky because you had to hold buttons and, depending on your controller, that wasn't even practical.

2K3 simplified it I would have simplified it a tad further because I believe, and this is key, that difficulty should come in application, not execution. So things, like the Break Spiral command or the Raging Storm command, have to go. I think you did that. Which is good. Just apply that philosophy to everything. You can control how good Vanessa's sway is and how limited or not she is in her follow ups. You can choose how you want Jhun's stances to affect his game. I currently tweak them to function as 1: Some hard counters to some very specific things in specific situations, 2: A way to create some frame traps to force a roll to counter, 3: A fun way to do a few juggles.

I know that things like that are what keep my attention and when I see stuff like that in a game (think Hwoarang in Tekken 5 as he plays a lot like that.... mad frame traps) I look and I go "I want to do that."

In the end it's your call... just leave SOME things in there for those who want to take the time to do it.

Be careful with the same chain. It's those types of things that sneak up on developers and end up being abused and making other aspects of the game obsolete. ROTD had it's crazy CD attack combos... SFA had the chain combos... KOFMI2/2006 had low Sabaki. All it takes is a simple chain starting off with a light attack that can be linked once or twice to verify and then completed into a decent damage combo to completely break and also kill the depth of a character.

Sorry for the long rant.

Real quick... three more things i'm big on, especially after the atrocities of KOF 2001 and 2002... These are just general statements and not too much based on your game (things to look out for).

1: Be cognizant of how a move feels and comes out. Make sure moves look painful and the damage occurs when it should. You don't want to end up with crap like Shemie's 2002 Stunner where they take damage in the middle of the move and not at the end. Note how NGBC fixed it. They made the actual throw part execute quicker and made the damage occur when she actually does the stunner.

2: Try not to add two moves that do the same thing, if you can help it.

3: Consider the victims. One cool thing that the SF3 series did was keep their moves short. A ranbu doesn't have to be 30 hits (in fact, it looks less painful that way). You don't want the flow of battle interrupted by soda intermissions like the Running THree or May Lee's stupid@$$ whatever the heck garbage crap move she had (what a terrible character).

I think i'm a little hard on you because your game actually has promise. Let's collaborate in the future.

sander

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#300 July 05, 2008, 08:19:30 pm

Ikuze~!

Based on your reply, I can tell that this project is more based on how you "feel" rather than putting in hardwork to get the numbers right. The easy route is to say "this feels better, animation is smoother, you are missing the boat here, SNK should have done it my way etc.." The hard route which only a few follow is keeping true to the game, to try to get the "real feel" of the game by getting the numbers down.

Looking at some of the feedback that was given here, I can see that getting accurate KOF data now is a lot more simpler than back in the days when I was still active. I haven't even heard of some of the tools they are mentioning.

I guess it depends on your goal - are you aiming to create a MUGEN KOF game that has solid KOF gameplay with extended roster? Or are you aiming to have a KOF game that fits your tastes (and a few others here that give you feedback)?. Or maybe you want a KOF game that fits your tastes but has solid KOF gameplay?

Your project is still young and has lots of potential. Just showing you your options. Personally I would say that you get the accuracy down FIRST, then move on with tweaking stuff to your liking (though if you tweak I still

), but that's just silly old me.

Again good luck, sorry if I can't beta test / download cause the game is too big... if you can get some characters available for download maybe I can check em out. Though it maybe months again before I post here

, or not depending on how bored I am.

Music Site
Future MUGEN Gaming Site, MUGEN 1.0 Compatible
Reviews - Future MUGEN reviews site

Links to this post

King of Fighters E blog (Read 1258797 times)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)