The Mugen Fighters Guild - King of Fighters E blog

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#261 June 07, 2008, 08:37:18 pm

The world is what you make of it

[E] Agreed.

This next part is a response to the tier comments from the release topic:

http://mugenguild.com/forumx/index.php?topic=81092.20

There is a good point being made there. But here's some of the issues that have forced me to cut from the upper tier characters rather add on to the lower tier characters. If you've noticed, I have been adding to the lower tier characters. Whip has a new unblockable straight shot move and a wider ranged SDM with good juggling ability. If you look at Angel, she one of the few people with 6 specials movelist (and then some). It has expanded on their gameplay. The reason I can't really do more than I have is because:

a) I'm trying to stay loyal to the characters, by not giving them wild new moves that don't make sense character wise. Angel doesn't need a dp and Whip doesn't need a hurricane kick.

b) Sprite limitations. I've said it before, I'm a sprit-dicap. I've managed a few edits, but working from scratch is like me walking into the mouth of hell. It's a doomed venture. Characters, especially the newer ones or ones that have been redrawn several times, just don't have enough sprites to new stuff. Still, I do what I can. It's for these reason's that I'll be using Kyo's 99-2k2 sprites. His newer rendition just doesn't have enough.

So I add to the lower, but only being able to do so much, I remove some from the higher to maintain balance. For example, Ryo's qcb +p move was removed because it's functionality already existed in 2 other moves. The autoguard exists in zanretsuken and the advance in the wk version of hien. I enjoy making you think more while you play, so if you can't do the one move that has both advantages, you'll have to further analyze the situation before picking which one to use. If you're pressured, you may have to guess, which could leave an opening for big punishment, but that's all part of fighting gameplay.

In another example though, I gave an already high tier player a sixth move. Terry has his slide in this incarnation. I gave it to him because I think it really add something to his gameplay without damaging the balance. After all it, like most of his advancing attacks are a touch slower than most. And I believe it complements the crackshot. I'm trying to make characters fresh by making some of the gameplay fresh, but not removing everything you know and love (just a couple). So returning to Iori or Kim or Ryo, I felt they were much more complete as is. Adding more isn't always the way to change up a character. Sometimes removing something to make you focus on other moves works just as well. As I mentioned before, I feel there's a heavier favor upon a close game with Iori now, which wasn't present in KOF and personally I think it makes him a bit scarier. You've gotta get past the "it's not precisely like the real games", because you're right it's not. It's not supposed to be. If you think something should be a certain way, give me some examples as to why. If I agree, or can't defend my choices, I'll change it.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

K.O.D

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#262 June 07, 2008, 08:41:14 pm

what a shame

Kyo 98 is better, you can also add his 182 shiki using SvC sprites (like im doing with my Kyo)

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#263 June 07, 2008, 10:43:32 pm

The world is what you make of it

Totally agreed there. I personally hate 99-2k2, but I'm also thinking the hcb +k moves. Hopping punch explode thing and the standing explode punch thing. For the hop version, I'll be giving him the 2k version as the weak version, and the '99 version as the strong version. The standing explode punch thing will work as a separate counter move. Really gives interesting possibilities to Kyo. It's a compromise, but that's why I'll be adding the sun onto his back for all sprites. I really think he needs that. He'll be up next after Vanessa.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Bastard Mami

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#264 June 08, 2008, 01:40:14 am

In the last relese I said that I saw where this project was heading to; it's ncie to see that it still is going in that direction. Now it feels more like a new game than a "let's put kof characters together with all their moves and call it a day". That being said, there will always be stuff to point out.

I ill use kof key style while talking about the buttons.
Some of the chains are irregular, like terry can chain his fwd+A after a crouching C, but not after a standing C, it happens with other characters and other moves too.

Some chars can chain weak moves after strong ones, namely whip and kim; that feels like it was not done on purpose so I am reporting that.

I still can't see where are you going with the ground to air interaction (i.e. a character in the ground hits a character in the air), if you are going for something new, it's ok, if you want to keep it like kof, there is a lot of fixing to do.

I won't report changes from kof as this is supossed to be different.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#265 June 08, 2008, 02:58:38 am

The world is what you make of it

Hey [E], glad to see I'm improving. Thanks.

The irregular chain thing was done on purpose, but in light of all the discussion here, I'll be completely revamping the 2 in 1 system to something more universal. Of course the Unique Chains will play a part in that.

I'll need a little more with the ground to air thing if you can offer it. Are you referring to the type of juggle system the game currently has the pop up system (like Angel being able to combo her dash throw from the weak circlet finish)? I can tell you that there probably are some juggling glitches in the game. Baiken pointed out some big ones in the first release.

What has been done on purpose is that projectile have unlimited juggle (i.e. juggle=0), except in broken cases like Geese's Thunder break.

Something that hasn't been done on purpose, but that I've been unable to fix is something like Chizuru's jab DP. I can't make it recognize the juggle =10 variable it should have. It's a helper so it separates itself from the base character's juggle count (like projectiles do) and it doesn't want to activate variable I try to use to trigger the juggle state in her non helper state.

Just wanted to point out that I'm really glad there seems to be a lot more interest in the release this time and I've having a great time hearing you KOF view and giving more insight on the project. Last time only 300 people download the characters period, but with this release, after just one week, over 450 downloaded them (215 without music and 235 with music) and that's not counting the China sites superyuzqy posted the full game at. While, this might be a small figure for some, it's a very big accomplishment for me as I was hoping for 600 in total and it looks like I might surpass that. And the roster's only 1/3 complete. Thanks for all the interest and playing the game. I'm still hoping some of the regular board visitors will post their comments/feedback too (where did you go Shion?)

Cheers

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Shion

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#266 June 08, 2008, 03:13:44 am

I'm here and I finally got it downloaded, but I've been really busy lately, so I havn't gotten a chance to play it much, although I did check out Angel....just not enough to make a comment. You will get feedback from me though, it just might take a while.

Bastard Mami

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#267 June 08, 2008, 08:51:49 pm

By ground to air game I mean both juggling and air recovery. More importantly for me now is the fact that rolls are very dominant in the game, mostly because they have a lot of invincibility in the end, I think they should be much more vulnerable in the end, even if that ends up weakening the ais now, it looks like they are going to be recoded anyway.

[EDIT]

ryo parry can't block projectiles, it should.
cancel frames of crouching c feel off-late

Some moves do a diagup animation and end in sexy ko, so fix your sexy ko code

Holding down + weak punch with leona shuld trigger the crouching punch

Whip's crouching C won't trigger while running

Last Edit: June 08, 2008, 09:56:28 pm by Satou Sei

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#268 June 08, 2008, 11:36:17 pm

The world is what you make of it

For ground to air, opponents hit in the air should flip after getting hit by basic attacks and attacks with no airfall or fall coded into them. The recovery animation might be too long though and I'm not sure if you can control your character while they're in the flipping state (5040) and thus block. I'll have to check. However, there is no Capcom SFZ3 style manual airflip recover state (5200) in this game. I'm really not a fan of that.

For juggles, all variable have been set to 15 and most attacks should do 10. The more juggleable ones do 5. I know in 2 player simultaneous, these variables are kinda up in the air because if p1 hits and then p2 hits with a follow up, the counter just keeps getting reset. That should only be in 2p simultaneous though.

Rolls. Right now both forward and backward rolls are 33 ticks for all characters. Out of the 33 ticks, only the last 3 are hittable. Do you suggest I double this value and make it 6? I think 8 would be too much. I'll play around with them a bit.

All autoguards should block fireballs. If Ryo's doesn't, it's a glitch and I'll definitely fix it. We'll see if Ryo's cancel frames are still off after the new chain system is implemented.

I'll check out the sexy ko glitch.

The last two shouldn't be happening. I'll test and get back.

Thanks for the update [E]. Let me know if you find any other glitches. Man, my list of things to do sure has gotten big. Gonna have to prioritize. I'll probably start next weekend.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#269 June 09, 2008, 01:41:42 am

The world is what you make of it

Well, I got bored and looking at the list of glitches/fixes, I saw there were quite a few character specific things that solve pretty quick. If you check out the list on the previous page, you'll see what fixes have been done.

The Iori Crossup's seems to have issues when you try to changed the command when you've jumped over a character cause the moment they turn, the p2bodydist code becomes neutralized and the move fails to come out at all. Therefore, right now, it'll stay as b +wk to prevent further glitching.

[E] glad you found that running state glitch with Whip and Leona. Turns out a lot of the characters had that glitch. Shame I didn't catch it before the release, cause that's a big one. Oh, well. Fixed now.

No worries Shion, reply when you can. Just saw a whole page go by without a post from you, which is rare nowadays.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Shion

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#270 June 09, 2008, 09:38:55 am

You probably already know, but Chizuru's FDF, LP + F, LP is an infinite. It took me a few try's before I got the timing down, but now I can easily do 100% life with it.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#271 June 09, 2008, 03:28:30 pm

The world is what you make of it

Yeah, I just can't figure out how to correctly add the juggle to weak dp. Each time a new helper appears, the juggle count resets and variable triggering doesn't seem to work. As a temp solution I may have to make the weak dp impossible to chain into. Doesn't stop you from abusing it as a combo starter though...

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Bastard Mami

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#272 June 09, 2008, 05:45:08 pm

About ground to air.

In kof it works like this: either your attacks allow p2 to fall into his feet or to fall to a liedown state. regardless of how you fall you won't recover control until you hit the ground. the balance seeems to be achieved by juggling.

About jugling.

There is a fundamental error with this theory, though it is related to strikers so it should work well if there are no strikers present.

When you hit an oponent in to the air you are given a set amount of juggle points that depends on the attack you used to launch the oponent and whether or not you got a counter hit. The points get reduced with time, so it is good to assume one point per tick. once the juggle points hit 0 you can't juggle anymore unless you use a move that does not require any juggle points (like oswald's ldm, mary's rpd follow up in 97,2001). some moves can't juggle in regular conditions (like kyo's qcf+D, ie. the striker bug).

How I implemented those was simply using the nojuggle check to allow my char to juggle, while giving the char, 7 juggle points in the cns as opossed to 15 and making all the moves use 10 juggle points. Then I set a var when a move hits and decrease it over time.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#273 June 09, 2008, 06:26:48 pm

The world is what you make of it

About ground to air.

That's how it should be working. The 5040 state has it's animation end with a -1 so control shouldn't resume until the player hits the ground unless the attack is canrecover, in which case, hitting a+x will do the recovery roll at Pos Y > 30 (20 was way too tight). I should point out that when the AI is controlling the characters certain things happen that shouldn't because the AI "cheats" a little in this regard. For example, AI ignores the fact that laydown time = 60 ticks. It's been kinda a pain because some moves lose effectiveness when the AI immediately pops up after being knocked down. It's something I can mention to missfairy. I'd say test ground to AI with P2 as a human and see if the same issues persist. If not, it's an AI issue. If so, then I'll need to recode 5040 for everyone.

About juggling

Okay I alway though the cns value (set to 15 in all my characters) was the marker and if a move had a value of juggle 10 then it'd remove 10 from that marker (making 5) and thus only moves with 5 and below would hit. So it's a time thing then. So basic attacks should be lower and highly juggleable moves should be higher instead of the other way around. Okay I'll test it with Vanessa once I start her. Juggling effectively will be crucial to Kyo's gameplay, so I should try to get it right before starting him.

This still doesn't solve the Chizuru problem, but it's a good start.

Thanks [E]

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Bastard Mami

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#274 June 09, 2008, 06:33:20 pm

No, what I said is how it "works" in kof, not mugen, since mugen's system feels broken to me I stopped using it completely and changed to a custom juggle system.

About liedown times, they should be around 11, but in mugen you can cheat and get up faster by tapping buttons.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#275 June 09, 2008, 09:45:28 pm

The world is what you make of it

Mmm... I see. I do use the nojuggle check for some things and most specials juggle the way I want them to now. I'm just not too fond of how the basics juggle.

So you can cheat? Is there any way of disabling that? If not, I'll have to force people to lay down like I do in Angel's elbow drop follow up. Not really a must fix, just annoying I guess.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Bastard Mami

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#276 June 09, 2008, 11:55:16 pm

I think it's hardcoded so yeah, you have to use custom states/code.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#277 June 13, 2008, 06:05:33 pm

The world is what you make of it

Wow, over 10000 views. I feel special. Thanks for taking an interest everyone!

I find myself bored and I really have an itch to finish the next wave as soon as I can (Kyo especially, it'll be good to get all those sprite edits behind me). So I'll start Vanessa tonight. Sexy Ko first. If that goes smoothly, hopefully a weekend finish is possible. If not, mid next week. Then I'll wrap up the rest of the easy fixes (Charge fix, hitby addtional ticks for rolls, etc...) The bigger fixes like the unique chain and chain corrections and error in special bindstates will come later on.

After much debate with myself, I've decided to put Mr. Big into the mix. He'll fill the empty sub-boss slot (creating a boss team KOFE)! That leaves 4 available slots left. There's some demand for Eiji, so he's a strong candidate. That's it for now.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Bastard Mami

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#278 June 18, 2008, 05:21:33 pm

Besides any posssible juggle infinites that I will be ignoring, after some play tests I found angel, kasumi and K to be particularly strong. K does too much damage currently, kasumi's unblockable chains can be done while forcing the oponent to block, angel is overall strong, but mostly she has an infinite do stand C, qcf +B, stand C again, it requires relatively tight timing and to start at a close distance.

also, and this might relate mostly to kasumi, the ai is able to do combos the human can do, mostly because it can cancel out from certain attacks, but I will wait for the next version that should fix most cancel problems before being more specific with this.

swipergod

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#279 June 18, 2008, 11:12:00 pm

The world is what you make of it

Thanks a lot [E] for all the in depth coverage. I will check all throws and close up combos for missing "do not execute while opponent is blocking" code. Moves become far too broken if opponents can force characters into their combos at will.

K's damage will be re-evalutated. Thanks

I will tighten the timing of Angel's qcf +b to remove the infinite. Since I lack the skill to do infinites in the real games, it's hard for me execute and catch them in my game as well. If you find any other infinities/broken/unbalanced combos, let me know.

Kasumi should be toned down substantially once I replace her f,d,f +k move with her anti air slashing attack from KOF '98 UM. Have to wait for the game to come out first though. With that move, I should be able to tone down her arsenal and bring her down a couple ticks in terms of power (I agree that she's slightly higher tier than the others currently which is the main reason for the change).

AI revisions are being worked on by Missfairy in passing, but I'll let her know that Kasumi is particularly cheap.

Vanessa is going slowly, mostly due to the amount of OT I'm doing at work. I'm hoping to finish this weekend now, with a release sometime next week, depending on Missfairy's availability.

Thanks again [E], hopefully the next major release will be one step closer to some more solid gameplay.

New KOFE website is up. Go visit it for all your KOFE needs:

https://mugenkofe.wixsite.com/info

Bastard Mami

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

#280 June 19, 2008, 04:31:06 pm

swipergod said, June 18, 2008, 11:12:00 pm

Thanks a lot [E] for all the in depth coverage. I will check all throws and close up combos for missing "do not execute while opponent is blocking" code. Moves become far too broken if opponents can force characters into their combos at will.

I will tighten the timing of Angel's qcf +b to remove the infinite. Since I lack the skill to do infinites in the real games, it's hard for me execute and catch them in my game as well. If you find any other infinities/broken/unbalanced combos, let me know.

About that, you can make teh chars unthrowable while on some of the guard states, to make your life easier.
About angel, I think it's better if you make the hittime of the qcf+b smaller, so only the next part of the chain can hit after it, even if it means making the second part of the chain faster.

Links to this post

King of Fighters E blog (Read 1261314 times)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)

Re: Mugen: King of Fighters Edition (A Little Mugen Project)