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New Dragonball Super Series (Read 1521982 times)

Started by Omega, April 28, 2015, 02:37:30 pm
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Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2141  March 19, 2018, 05:11:24 pm
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Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2142  March 19, 2018, 07:30:36 pm
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Manga chapter is out, Frost takes out Krillin and Tenshinhan then solos most of U9 (and then gets backstabbed and kicked out by Freeza). lol Krillin does literally nothing and  gets kicked out within two pages, and then Frost tanks a Kikoho then tosses Ten out, Gohan pulls a Kid Goku pushing himself back onto the ring with a kamehameha propulsion, and Freeza finishes off U9 which goes bye bye. Gohan and Piccolo fight a bit of U9 too.
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Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2143  March 19, 2018, 07:42:16 pm
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Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2144  March 19, 2018, 08:04:59 pm
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It was a problem we all acknowledged going into Super.  Either we keep it GT for Goku Time (Guest starring Vegeta) or else everyone gets the same ridiculous boosts.  Varying abilities only go so far, when the basis for ki in this series is more or less a catch-all ability letting them do practically anything.  Like, we've already past being strong enough to beat time.  A while ago, at that.

As frankly stupid a number of the character boosts were, along with some who got shafted (Tien) they've still kept it in line that the Saiyans are top-tier outside these newcomers (Like Jiren who we really don't know much about how he got that power, so calling it undeserved is unfair at this point) while the rest of the Z-Warriors at least now do a better job pulling their weight by other means.
Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2145  March 19, 2018, 10:05:10 pm
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Yeah that maybe so but it does devalue the fact that Goku and Vegeta were given a chance to train with one the angels ( an honor most likely only passed to chosen gods of destruction) and still be matched by those who haven't (Freeza, Hit, A17, Trunks, U6 saiyans etc.)

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Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2146  March 19, 2018, 10:23:12 pm
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I agree with Frieza, 17 and Trunks in that example.  Especially Trunks, even regarding the theory of the possibility that there is something special to the Saiyan royal bloodline to get a rage-fueled alternative Super Saiyan form, a la that minor appearance of Vegeta beating Beerus in the BoG arc and Trunks' SSJ Rage.  But Hit is too unexplored in any great detail like Jiren to justify one way or another, other than his time skip along with an attack that bypasses defenses helped him even the battlefield against better fighters. 

And the Universe 6 Saiyans we were led to believe evolved in a different, more beneficial path than our universe's version that was subjugated to always be below Frieza's higher-up minions and never really improved as a society, just as individual warriors who were already at a good starting level for planetary conquest. (Or was that whole evolution thing just an on-going headcanon in the fandom?  I forget where we started filling in the blanks with them)  While the later revelations from those who worked on the story for Super gave a real disappointing answer as to how Kale and Caulifla came about, proving that tingly back thin was just as stupid as it appeared, there is some weight at least to the theory as to why they would be jumping over the steps Universe 7's Saiyans needed to push themselves through.  But minus the training to get there, of course they're mis-using the forms to their best potential.  They got the transformations way easier, but without the proper training, Goku of course put them in their place when separate.  Their power didn't match Goku's experience.

Now, Kefla beating God and Blue Goku, eh...because we never saw Vegito even trying in the Buu arc, and he was placed against a villain he was destroying but could not actually kill with Zamasu, I can't rule out that there's some sense to Kefla being that OP.  But I will agree without enough backstory to the girls, it just didn't feel right for that to happen.  And them harming UI Goku on top of that, too...

Power scaling is just a mess throughout this series.  Hopefully things will be more consistent going forward, and they can fill in the potholes left over.  And re-retcon that stupidity with Vegito Blue and time limits, GOD did I hate that.
Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 10:28:00 pm by Long John Killer
Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2147  March 19, 2018, 10:32:30 pm
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Remember : rage Trunks is anime only. It's Toei filler, don't take it seriously for canon power level debates (not that you should seriously debate on power levels, but, you know, if you do that anyway, at least don't take the fillers seriously).
Freeza makes a bit more sense after the BoG/F retcon that he knew Beerus all along and Beerus already thought he was pretty strong, it's just that Freeza never trained a single day in his life. It's a massive retcon from the original Namek arc because there's no way it makes sense when comparing the two power levels, but it did get an explanation. Plus, the Blues managed to wipe the floor with him once they figured out his weaknesses, and that was back when they were brand new to the form, and they've both made massive improvements to it since then, both in the anime and the manga, in the exact same way Goku and Gohan did when they learned to use SSJ all the time without needing to get angry.
#17 in the anime is on the edge of bullshit because you can still sort of get away with it by saying he's not actually strong, he just fights a lot smarter and he has infinite energy but he still gets beaten, and then once again I'll just say to wait for what the manga gives us on him.

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(Or was that whole evolution thing just an on-going headcanon in the fandom?  I forget where we started filling in the blanks with them)
Never heard of that theory and I don't visit any fandom sites, so that's fandom headcanon.

As for Vegito Blue, that was Toyotaro's suggestion to Toriyama and Toei apparently picked it up first. Literal author-approved fanservice.
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Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 10:38:09 pm by Byakko
Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2148  March 19, 2018, 10:40:24 pm
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Filler is a very serious matter and should be taken very seriously! :tough:

I think I might have first heard it from MasekoX, so that might explain a thing or two.  But we already do know for sure they as a species grew in a fairly different manner than our default ones, and they reach the forms without nearly as much stress as Universe 7 did.

It's not so much that Vegito came back and could use the Blue form.  It would make sense that he could, and while I'm not a fan of the form myself it's not that big a deal.  It's the time limit nonsense.  You had A) A reason for them defusing already established that you could have gone further in-depth about B) A back-up plan on defusing them without a Buu conveniently around and C) Someone who already does exactly what you wanted to do with Vegito!  This was a much better opportunity to bring Gogeta into canon for the first time than reducing Vegito into the same thing as Gogeta.  They were close enough already, but had specific differences for each other, now they're literally the same thing.  And it's not like the fusion dance was forgotten by Toriyama, because Gotenks is still a thing.
Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 10:48:00 pm by Long John Killer
Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2149  March 19, 2018, 11:08:23 pm
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Well Toyotaro wanted to do Vegito, not Gogeta, and they worked backward from that suggestion :P
The unmaking of the original fusion was never really explained in the first place, right ? And then Toriyama straight up forgot about it. The time limit making Vegito basically the exact same as Gogeta was bad, yeah, but I don't see how they could have done Vegito again without that, Vegeta never wanted to do it again and there wasn't a way to go with the fan theory of Buu's evil insides. It's just Toyotaro's fault for wanting to do Vegito and not Gogeta (personally I prefer Vegito and I don't care about Gogeta who appears for like two minutes in his movie with almost no dialog - GT doesn't count).
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Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2150  March 19, 2018, 11:39:37 pm
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All they needed to do was not defuse until after Zeno took care of Zamasu.  Vegito could explain to Zeno that he's part Goku if need be (Though that timeline's Zeno didn't even care, if I recall correctly, and chances are being the one above all, he could probably tell anyways) then wish himself apart.  You'd still give Trunks his moment and keep the rest of the ending, while giving Vegito the fanservice they wanted.  But if they just wanted it to be an extremely short cameo, then I'm sorry, it was just stupid to not just use Gogeta for it.
Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2151  March 19, 2018, 11:46:11 pm
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it was just stupid to not just use Gogeta for it.
But... Toyotaro wanted a short cameo by Vegito.
Vegito Blue failing to kill any form of Zamasu for any reason other than undoing the fusion would have been really terrible. They're not going to do a fanservice cameo of someone that's supposed to be way more powerful than anything if they're just going to toss him in the fire by saying actually he's a big loser who fails to kill Zamasu.
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Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2152  March 19, 2018, 11:53:05 pm
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I'm sorry, I have to disagree.  He was never going to beat Zamasu, and we knew that from the start.  They were hoping to outstrength infinity, the guy was immortal.  I would say it would have been better if he stayed around and tried every trick in the book he could to drill the message Vegito was never going to do anything, rather than a short fight and popping away.  It wouldn't have mattered anyway one way or another to fans at that point once they've shown that just being stronger than Zamasu wasn't going to cut it, they needed another strategy.  But it did matter messing with the pre-established canon on the guy just to fit him in there in this unwinnable situation.

I just wish Toyotaro here thought of that beforehand, that all this change was ultimately unnecessary.
Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 12:07:54 am by Long John Killer
Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2153  March 20, 2018, 12:04:12 am
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But... Toyotaro wanted a short cameo by Vegito.
Vegito Blue failing to kill any form of Zamasu for any reason other than undoing the fusion would have been really terrible. They're not going to do a fanservice cameo of someone that's supposed to be way more powerful than anything if they're just going to toss him in the fire by saying actually he's a big loser who fails to kill Zamasu.

I mean they kinda still did though? As much as Vegito was hyped up he still did less damage to Zamasu than Goku on his own with almost no strength left. In fact, if you'd cut out the Vegito part and just have senzu upped Goku and Vegeta struggle against Zamasu until we got to the Trunks spirit sword thing it would literally change nothing. On top of that Vegito also has a time limit now? Yeah it makes sense why fans thought it was poorly done despite what the author wanted.
Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2154  March 20, 2018, 12:09:06 am
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As much as Vegito was hyped up he still did less damage to Zamasu than Goku on his own with almost no strength left.
Uh ? Vegito was wiping the floor with Zamasu, they were even hinting that Zamasu's regeneration was unable to keep up with his power, and very strongly hinting that Vegito was about to kill Zamasu with his last blast right when he defused. That's both in the anime and the manga.
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Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2155  March 20, 2018, 12:24:34 am
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the manga for sure but the anime? Sorry I'll never accept that Goku's Kamehameha wave did more damage to Zamasu than Vegito's Final Kamehameha wave in the anime. His defusing before his "last blast" is a cop out to me at that point.

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Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2156  March 20, 2018, 05:16:08 am
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fusions are a plot device meant to show how powerful the opponent is. not once outside the movies and gt has fusion ever won. theyre used to demonstrate a significant power up for the heroes and gives hope that they would win but have always ended in ways that makes the characters and audience go "oh fuck". fusions haven't won in canon and that doesn't change here, atleast it gives us a great fight scene.
Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2157  March 20, 2018, 05:45:24 am
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The Idea to bring Vegito back was good, but they could have handled it better without retcon the Portara Fusion rules.

For example a good reason would have been that the Portara of Universe 7 where not created to handle so much Power, and something "unexpected" happens.

We can be realy sure at this Point, that the Gods of Universe 7 are realy bad at doing "godly things" so it would not suprise anyone if they create things like the Portara in a lower quality than other universes do.
Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2158  March 20, 2018, 08:00:36 pm
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Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2159  March 20, 2018, 10:51:10 pm
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How shoiuld I put it, for what little we see of him, he gives me a bit of a Broly vibe ? Except not insane.
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Re: New Dragonball Super Series
#2160  March 20, 2018, 11:16:42 pm
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I swear that little stretch and hop Goku does in the beginning is so familiar to me, I've seen it before.  A rotoscope of someone...not Bruce Lee I think, maybe Muhammad Ali?

Well, there go any flimsy hopes of this maybe being one of the Cold family.  Still, a new Saiyan movie villain that's not Broly.  Reminds me of him in this teaser too, but still.