The Mugen Fighters Guild

Off-Topic => All That's Left => Topic started by: Magma MK-II on May 23, 2014, 03:49:20 pm

Title: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Magma MK-II on May 23, 2014, 03:49:20 pm
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/05/madrid-bullfight-canceled-matadors-gored (http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/05/madrid-bullfight-canceled-matadors-gored)

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From the BBC:

A shocked crowd watched in horror as [matador David Mora] was gored and thrown through the air. Mr Mora sustained a large gash in his thigh and another in his armpit, bullring officials said.

Spanish newspaper El Pais described the somersault as “horrific, shocking, chilling”.

The second matador, Antonio Nazare, injured his knee when a bull dragged him along the sand in the bullring. And the final headlining act, Jimenez Fortes, was skewered in the right leg and the pelvis.

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Very sad, very shocking. But here is my question: If it is a bullfight, i.e. a fight with a bull, why do they cancel the fight when the bull starts winning?

Granted I’ve never been to a bullfight, but from what I understand, the bulls don’t get to cancel the event when they get gored. These men chose to fight these animals, and it doesn’t seem sporting to take their proverbial ball and go home when the other team starts beating up on them. Or goring them, in this case.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Iced on May 23, 2014, 04:01:25 pm
Im from a bullfighting city, they cancel the fights because the performers are now in hospital. What do they expect to followup the act when the bullfighter gets gored?

When the human cannonball breaks his neck you dont follow the act by getting more people into the cannon.

Granted i might be looking at this too straightfoward and they might just trying to be whimsical by pointing out the bulls werent allowed to kill the fighter sand how that is unfair but that would be retarded.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Byakko on May 23, 2014, 04:18:06 pm
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These men chose to fight these animals, and it doesn’t seem sporting to take their proverbial ball and go home when the other team starts beating up on them. Or goring them, in this case.
Yes, it would be a so much better idea to let it continue and have more bullfighters kill bulls when the bulls didn't chose to fight them. Brilliant.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Titiln on May 23, 2014, 04:31:06 pm
i think the "fight to the death" expectation stems from utter hatred of bullfighting more than anything else. it seems more whimsical than serious
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Iced on May 23, 2014, 04:44:20 pm
Bull goring happens, its part of the type of perfomance, the rest of the show isnt cancelled unless the main performers get injured to a point where there isnt anyone that can fill in the time they were supposed to be performing.

If what they wanted was the bulls to finish off the bullfighters   then they are just pants on head retarded.

What's next?  Rodeos should have cowboys get trampled when something goes wrong because we are all wannabe homicidal shits? Someone getting food poisoning from meat should be left to die because they knew some animals died for that meat so its only fair?
People practicing rock climbing should be left to die if injured because they knew where they were getting into?
Someone hunting should be left to the wolves because hey its only fair, them wolves trapped him fair and square, also they have guns.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: FeLo_Llop on May 23, 2014, 05:22:40 pm
I don't like animal suffering. Bullfighting is not an exception.

I, in the other hand, understand their "reasons". It's part of a(savage) tradition. It has their rules and all. SO, if you apply those rules, the three bulls who won yesterday must not be sacrificed. They defeated the torero.

Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Byakko on May 23, 2014, 05:45:42 pm
What do you mean by sacrificed, and also, were they sacrificed, or is there any talk of sacrificing them ?
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Iced on May 23, 2014, 05:55:29 pm
In bullfighting countries they consider the death of the bull a "sacrifice" to the ritual.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: walt on May 23, 2014, 06:00:06 pm
I heard that the life of a bull can only be pardoned if the bull gave a great performance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullfight#Spanish
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Very rarely, if the public or the matador believe that the bull has fought extremely bravely, the event's president may be petitioned to grant the bull a pardon (indulto). If the indulto is granted, the bull's life is spared; it leaves the ring alive and is returned to its home ranch. There the bull becomes a stud for the rest of his life.
Under any other circumstance, the animal dies.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Byakko on May 23, 2014, 06:03:08 pm
From what I understand, this sacrifice is during the bullfight itself. What if the bull didn't die during the fight and the fight was interrupted ? For instance, from the goring of the matador. I can't read the link at work (page doesn't load) so I don't know if they put the bull to death following the goring, did they ? And if they didn't, he got out of the ring alive, didn't he ? So he's out of the sacrifice deal. I don't know anything about bullfighting but from what I'm reading, it's not like they take the bull out of the ring and then kill it some other place, if it didn't die during the fight for any reason.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Basara Lapis on May 23, 2014, 06:05:41 pm
As in other different cases, when the animal goes mad and kills people, this is captured and then sacrified, I should think this case won't be an exception and the rule already quoted by Walt won't be used here. A pity, if you ask me.

Here in South America also were countries with bullfighting because of being spanish colonies, but most of them were erradicated with the independence of these countries in 1800s. Even so, there exist some countries that still have bullfighting until today

From what I understand, this sacrifice is during the bullfight itself. What if the bull didn't die during the fight and the fight was interrupted ? For instance, from the goring of the matador. I can't read the link at work (page doesn't load) so I don't know if they put the bull to death following the goring, did they ? And if they didn't, he got out of the ring alive, didn't he ? So he's out of the sacrifice deal.
In most of the cases, appears another torero to fight or just simply the animal is killed after that in front of all the public
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Byakko on May 23, 2014, 06:08:40 pm
Well, three matadors came in one after the other and were injured, and as long as it didn't die when they interrupted the fight, they won't go back to it well after the facts and kill it anyway, will they ?
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: walt on May 23, 2014, 06:14:21 pm
From what I understand, they will. Just not with the solemnity of Tradition, and a triumphant matador. The only chance the animal gets to live, is if it puts a hell of a fight, and the Matador requests pardon, which can be denied.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Iced on May 23, 2014, 06:16:58 pm
at least here, the death is not allowed to occur in public, the animal fights until injured and when the fight ends the animals are carried on to be put down out of the public view.

Death on the arena isnt a custom that practiced for a while.

In some zones the tradition is that a bull killed after a bullfight has its meat distributed in the village or given to the places that feed the homeless.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Daeron on May 23, 2014, 06:20:58 pm
Im am Spanish, and i dont like Bullfighting, mostly because i dont enjoy seein the bull die.
"Saltadores" on the other hand, i like better, they perform acrobatics over the Bulls and evade them with grace, they dont hurt the animal either.

(http://toropasion.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/DSC8245.jpg)

But as some say, and i agree, this species of bulls would be extinguised if people would not raise them for Bullfighting.
Nobody except maybe some Animal protectors would take the risk of protecting and caring this animal with no future profits in mind.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Titiln on May 23, 2014, 06:28:50 pm
i had no idea saltadores were a thing. that's awesome

What's next?  Rodeos should have cowboys get trampled when something goes wrong because we are all wannabe homicidal shits? Someone getting food poisoning from meat should be left to die because they knew some animals died for that meat so its only fair?
People practicing rock climbing should be left to die if injured because they knew where they were getting into?
Someone hunting should be left to the wolves because hey its only fair, them wolves trapped him fair and square, also they have guns.
a lot of these analogies are really bad because the activity you describe does not involve the active murdering of another living being
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Iced on May 23, 2014, 06:30:14 pm
both rodeos and bullfighting end with the animals being killed for its meat.

eating a burger also warrants killing an animal, and so does the hunting.

The only one that doesnt is rock climbing.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Niitris on May 23, 2014, 06:32:46 pm
"Saltadores" on the other hand, i like better, they perform acrobatics over the Bulls and evade them with grace, they dont hurt the animal either.

Heh, that looks cool.
Yeah I can't stand seeing animals suffering either (no matter how vicious looking), although somebody's gotta do the dirty work to provide food and all.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Byakko on May 23, 2014, 06:44:27 pm
both rodeos and bullfighting end with the animals being killed for its meat.
Uh what ? Never heard anything like that in rodeo. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodeo) and that (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_treatment_in_rodeo) don't say anything about it, at most that some calves and such sometimes get injuries bad enough that they die, but not that the animal is systematically killed for its meat at the end, or at least not any differently than if they didn't have the rodeo. It's a competitive sport.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Titiln on May 23, 2014, 06:46:43 pm
the point of the rodeo is not to brutally murder the animal in front of an audience like in bullfighting, it's usually doing dumb stunts and feats that often cause injuries to the animal, which sometimes ends up in the animal dying. it's not as cruel as bullfighting, but it's still terrible. when i eat a burger i didn't murder the animal for entertainment, the animal was already killed and processed for consumption. they're just not great analogies
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: inktrebuchet on May 23, 2014, 06:49:52 pm
But as some say, and i agree, this species of bulls would be extinguised if people would not raise them for Bullfighting.
Nobody except maybe some Animal protectors would take the risk of protecting and caring this animal with no future profits in mind.

Wrong. The are plenty of animals that have no future profit to humans.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Byakko on May 23, 2014, 06:50:49 pm
Such as ?
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Titiln on May 23, 2014, 06:52:24 pm
i would wager most endangered species offer no real benefits to humans
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Byakko on May 23, 2014, 06:54:20 pm
And I assume that when they're protected, it's by "animal protectors", right ?
(not that it makes a lot of sense to say "only animal protectors protect animals" but it's not exactly wrong)
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Iced on May 23, 2014, 06:54:47 pm
In bullfighting the animals end up injured ( except on the saltadores) but are then later on killed outside, in the same vein the rodeo animals are animals that are then processed for their meat ( except on specific situations like specific "celebrity" animals) .
Rodeos just have less focus on the swordfight traditional to latin countries.

All of those animals end up processed for the meat industry.

Death in the bullfighter arena is not common , it was banned quite a while ago, making it even closer to the rodeo thing.

(http://solesombra.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/pega.jpg)


i would wager most endangered species offer no real benefits to humans

those werent really protected until the eco environmentalists started bringing it up when they were already in risk of extinction.  Most people wouldnt really keep animals like those bulls alive since they arent as exotic and there are plenty of them right now.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Byakko on May 23, 2014, 06:57:29 pm
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in the same vein the rodeo animals are animals that are then processed for their meat ( except on specific situations like specific "celebrity" animals)
That's a pretty big mental shortcut here. The rodeo has nothing to do with the animal being later killed, they're just not doing rodeos on animals they don't own, and if they own these animals, they're probably going to kill them at some point unless they specifically use it for breeding or something. But that has nothing to do with the sport of rodeo. Whereas the act of bullfighting itself is directly tied to the killing of the animal. Rodeo isn't.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Iced on May 23, 2014, 07:14:46 pm
I dont know how rodeos work in specifics , but I know that after a bull run or a bull fight they put down the animals, the bull exhibition is the last step before the slaughter house. I assume that animals used in rodeos are used in a similar manner, and that they are not going back to the pens after.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Byakko on May 23, 2014, 07:39:52 pm
But it wouldn't be any different without the rodeo, so the rodeo is irrelevant to the fate of the animal. Bullfighting is specifically to "sacrifice" the bulls, and according to what was said earlier, the species would even be extinct if they weren't raised for bullfighting (as opposed to all the ones just raised to be eaten).
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Mog on May 23, 2014, 08:39:18 pm
Professional bucking bulls (rodeo) are treated better than most peoples pets.  They are worth a lot of money for breeding for years after they no longer compete.  Bulls aren't used for meat here, only for breeding.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Titiln on May 23, 2014, 09:07:23 pm
And I assume that when they're protected, it's by "animal protectors", right ?
(not that it makes a lot of sense to say "only animal protectors protect animals" but it's not exactly wrong)
i think i misunderstood something so disregard what i said on that subject

i suppose rodeo and how its animals are treated varies from country to country. bull death is a constant in bullfighting. the idea is that the bull must die, be it on the arena or off the arena.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Nanashi_1337 on May 23, 2014, 09:51:16 pm
They should cancel the whole thing for eternity IMO. Bullfighting is not a sport, it's downright animal cruelty. Yeah, I'm from Spain, and I believe this stupid sport, tradition or whatever they want to call it is something we don't need at all here. There's better ways to pass the time than seeing how a man starts stabbing a bull repeatedly until it bleeds to death.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Magma MK-II on May 23, 2014, 10:54:13 pm
The irony is that a practitioner of this "thing" is even called a "matador", which translates literally as "killer, assassin, slaughterer".
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Iced on May 23, 2014, 11:39:30 pm
But it wouldn't be any different without the rodeo, so the rodeo is irrelevant to the fate of the animal. Bullfighting is specifically to "sacrifice" the bulls, and according to what was said earlier, the species would even be extinct if they weren't raised for bullfighting (as opposed to all the ones just raised to be eaten).
Cant really speak for spain, but here they supposedly treat those animals like kings before getting to the arena. 

I dont really like bullfighting tho, its just very common here so you end up knowing about those things.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: MAO11 on May 24, 2014, 03:50:15 am
The irony is that a practitioner of this "thing" is even called a "matador", which translates literally as "killer, assassin, slaughterer".

we call our butchers matador. i like bullfighting especially when the matador gets stomped repeatedly by the bull or sent flying like a ragdoll in the air.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: LM_MAVERIK on May 24, 2014, 04:02:06 am
Not directly related to this topic but has anyone seen this video? This is absolutely brutal.  It's one thing for the matador to play Russian roulette with his own life but to throw other animals in the firing line is too much. This could be mexico as opposed to spain.
warning: Horse literally gets unzipped like a coat
Spoiler: Extremely graphic, gore (click to see content)
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: JustNoPoint on May 24, 2014, 04:07:37 am
Spoiler that with several warnings! Heck, it might be too much to post at all...
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: LM_MAVERIK on May 24, 2014, 04:10:49 am
sorry I probably should have done that.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Mog on May 24, 2014, 04:12:14 am
It makes a point though. Humans make the choice, that horse didn't
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: Iced on May 24, 2014, 11:24:36 am
Same issue with dog hunting and horseback hunting, the animals used in those situations as tools are always at risk.


Also I know it sounds like im defending bullfighting, Im not, its a realy stupid tradition that is pretty much useless when there are other rituals that dont involve randomly killing animals. I also think entertainment hunting is dumb.
Title: Re: Madrid bullfight is cancelled after three matadors are thrashed
Post by: kakkoii superhero on May 24, 2014, 08:09:37 pm
it is  not about killing the animal/ bull, the idea of bull fight where the matador carry several lances and a sword to stab the bull is sadistic, a bull with several lances sticking on its back and a sword stabbed to its chest while the crowd cheers for the matador is sickening, what they do afterward with its meat to feed the poor etc, has nothing to do with it and won't justify it.

comparing it to hunting is totally wrong, people with a license to hunt animal is done so these animal's population is controlled, otherwise they become pest since they breed fast, like rabbits, and the hunter also want to kill the animal as quick as possible, not by torturing the animal little by little until it is eventually die.