The Mugen Fighters Guild

M.U.G.E.N Central => Your Releases, 1.0+ => Topic started by: Sean Altly on September 24, 2011, 11:38:33 am

Title: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly & CVSNB
Post by: Sean Altly on September 24, 2011, 11:38:33 am
Well, here's the 1.0 update for Jin Kazama. A lot is different, lots of fixes, and of course the big ones, AI and EX Moves! More details below, in the spoiler:

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Here are some screen shots (same ones from the WinMugen release thread):

(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b293/seanaltly/mugen70.png)
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Here's a video preview as well: Watch (http://youtu.be/Y-evcYMwtEY)

Download him at the following locations:

www.mugenguild.com/seanaltly (http://www.mugenguild.com/seanaltly) > Bios > Jin Kazama!

Yes, we finally got FTP access back. I updated the links to Rorschach and Snake (so no more people downloading the out-dated versions), and added links for CM Punk and Jin Kazama. Thanks to Volzilla who helped with temp hosting while it was down.

Credits (from the ReadMe):

CVSNB for the sprites
Orochi Gill, Safir Kreuz, Zeckle/Laxxe23 and Cybaster for beta testing
Edward Elric for ripping the sounds
PotS for several FX
Namco for creating Jin and Tekken
Everyone at Mugen Fighter's Guild for their continued support
Volzilla at CVG for temp hosting
You!

If I forgot you, just let me know and I'll update this!
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Sima Shi on September 24, 2011, 11:40:17 am
cool dling....
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: ferretsshadow on September 24, 2011, 12:00:34 pm
haven't had a chance to try out the update yet but by what I saw from the 4 vs. 4 vid you posted this update is epic... thanks for taking the time to finish him  :'(

Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: HadeS on September 24, 2011, 01:48:47 pm
Excellent, but... you forgot again to put the name in display name in the DEF file, that's too much work for me :( :P
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Saikoro on September 24, 2011, 02:53:00 pm
Awesome update!! Jin is easily one of my top favorite Mugen creations as you have done a fine job. Mr. X will join that list once he is released.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: C.v.s The Abstract on September 24, 2011, 04:32:30 pm
AI match up with Pots ryu perfectly =D
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: SOLIDUS SNAKE on September 24, 2011, 05:11:19 pm
Heck yeah man!
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Joulz on September 24, 2011, 05:26:02 pm
excellent news: thanks a lot man!
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Big Dick on September 24, 2011, 06:21:31 pm
No DL link for Bloodtide on your site.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Cazaki on September 24, 2011, 08:12:41 pm
Okay, in-depth analysis. From what I can gather with the few minutes I've been using him, he's fairly similar to the first release of Jin, in that his juggle options are limited, but the pokes from the first update are still intact, and he doesn't have NEARLY as hard a time getting in as from the initial release, which is good. He plays a bit more true to how you made him initially, and with a juggle nerf, he's become more of a reactional rushdown character. It's interesting. He's not shit tier, but not too much worst than the Jin of the first update.

   The EX moves don't appear at first sight to change much about Jin, the damage buffs from the heavy version of the attacks isn't so much higher, but to make up for that, they have absurd range. They don't change or alter the way Jin plays at all, and it's been much more beneficial to just super instead of using them. They don't get much use from me because they don't retain the fundamental uses of the special move that I actually use. EX lift kicks don't put the opponent in a juggle position, and don't do so much more damage than heavy lift, so it gets no use. The EX paw has mad range, so I can see it's use but why do that when I can do a normal paw into level 1 super? EX god fist is a far knockdown, I don't know how to feel about that. So on and so forth for that, they work, but in the future you might want to consider that EX moves can be better than just slightly more powerful specials that are used only to squeeze in 50 more damage.

    The AI is solid, it's beatable and not too crazy, but I haven't fucked with it enough to know if there's anything wrong with it. I bet the KoF style dodge is pretty useful but I haven't really experimented with it so I can't talk on the subject, but it might be the key to successfully using Jin, considering his most hard-hitting BnB combos from the first update aren't possible now. I'll come back to say more things about him a bit later. And I'm ttly gonna come back with a tier list if Sub-Zero is released this weekend.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: FatalX on September 24, 2011, 09:45:43 pm
    The AI is solid, it's beatable and not too crazy, but I haven't fucked with it enough to know if there's anything wrong with it. I bet the KoF style dodge is pretty useful but I haven't really experimented with it so I can't talk on the subject, but it might be the key to successfully using Jin, considering his most hard-hitting BnB combos from the first update aren't possible now. I'll come back to say more things about him a bit later. And I'm ttly gonna come back with a tier list if Sub-Zero is released this weekend.

I confirm the AI is really solid and besides that the character is now great at every point. Congrats Sean i think you win Mugen.

Now pardon a veery silly question (but hey, answer it)... Whats the point of making exclusive 1.0 characters since their Winmugen versions works just fine on 1.0 ?
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: xcheatdeath on September 24, 2011, 09:51:27 pm
 :woeh:

finally!!! i've been awaiting this update. Testing time, feedback laterr.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Sean Altly on September 24, 2011, 10:51:39 pm

I confirm the AI is really solid and besides that the character is now great at every point. Congrats Sean i think you win Mugen.

Now pardon a veery silly question (but hey, answer it)... Whats the point of making exclusive 1.0 characters since their Winmugen versions works just fine on 1.0 ?

The AI uses AI Level, which is a 1.0 feature. It allows for there to actually be a difference in AI depending on what you have the difficulty set to.

So on and so forth for that, they work, but in the future you might want to consider that EX moves can be better than just slightly more powerful specials that are used only to squeeze in 50 more damage.

Uh, yeah, I know that. I've given EX moves many different properties in my other creations, I'm aware that EX moves aren't always just slightly more powerful versions of stuff, this isn't my first rodeo. Det. Laurel's EX jumping stomp has homing capabilities, as does Wyldestar's EX Shooting Star and Exile's EX Downward Spiral. Fray's EX Energy Grenade is three multi-direction grenades rather than just one. There are plenty of examples as to how I've used EX moves before, so please, I know what I'm doing. There just wasn't much else to do with Jin's moves in this case, however, there are more to some of them than just damage. EX Demon's Paw does more damage, but it also has the same start-up as LP Demon's Paw (so it's fast and damaging), and also some invincibility frames at the beginning. EX EGWH is supposed to function more like this move (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUK_Fdq42h4), hence it's short range but fast speed and recovery, and it also pushes the opponent far away if blocked (and Jin far away if blocked in the corner), so it's very safe. EX Lift Kicks has more horizontal range than either normal version, as well as very little start-up. It also does more damage, making it an alternative way to end a combo if you don't have enough super meter for a super move. EX Savage Sword is also faster than the normal ones, but doesn't really have any special features, it's just designed to be another alternative combo ender. So, as you can see, aside from EX Savage Sword, there's more to these moves than just "squeezing in 50 more damage".



Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: David1990 on September 24, 2011, 11:17:30 pm
well there some good things and missing things about this character.
1. Nice he has ex moves.
2. His juggle got nerf but is more balance this way.
3. Good A.I

Note: this just ideas and my opinions to make him better character, you can choose to consider it.
1) This character doesn't do well against projectiles since he's doesn't have parry or focus attack to deal with them which is why you added dodge system but can only side step i recommend adding roll dodge backwards and forwards in order to perform his combos and punish.
2) Kinda of agree with cazaki about Ex lift kicks putting opponent into juggle position. Maybe a move that can go through projects maybe his ex paw which has good range and/or some moves have some kind or more invincibility, and i notice demon paw has some invincibility frames at the beginning.

Questions
1) Lighting screw uppercut?
2) will you make another jin with 6 button character?

Good update, hopefully i'm looking forward for his future updates if there will be one. :)
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: ZolidSone on September 24, 2011, 11:22:29 pm
Nice update. Look forward to trying him out. :)
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Sean Altly on September 24, 2011, 11:25:42 pm
@David1990

I appreciate the feedback, but he's not getting any more moves. He already has plenty, I can't just keep adding them on (especially since they're not my sprites). Having trouble dealing with projectiles is just going to have to be one of his weaknesses. Every character has them, and it's always going to be a problem for him. I also really don't want to deal with more juggle issues that would inevitably be caused by allowing juggles after EX Lift Kick.

Also, the character is 4-button because he's for my full-game, so I probably will not make a 6-button version.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: drewski90 on September 24, 2011, 11:27:29 pm
but does he need more intros and winning poses? or have you already added them already?
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Cazaki on September 24, 2011, 11:33:34 pm
No need to post your track record. I'm just saying that to me they have some limited use, and that there's better options than to use them. I know you know what you're doing, but I think they are throwaway moves, there's never a time where using them can open up a whole new world of options for Jin, which is typical of EX moves in SF games. In many fighting games a character that is pretty meh turns into a monster when they have meter, and that's something Jin can't do. I'm not calling you incompetent, I just think it was a missed opportunity, no need to get upset.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Flamme Cadet on September 25, 2011, 12:59:52 am
great update sean! like him alot  ;D, just you could do a awesome char even more awesome!
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: XANDERAC on September 25, 2011, 03:30:57 am
Lighting Screw Uppercut? but that's not even accurate to the character though....

On another note, very nicely done Sean, I do like the new additions, and like how you took bits and pieces of all the important input and fixed things to make him an even more solid character, I'll give you some more feedback as I use him more, glad to know you fixed the glitch on his qcb+kick. Like I said before though man, if you need more palettes, feel free to include mine if you like :)
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Sean Altly on September 25, 2011, 05:31:46 am
No need to post your track record. I'm just saying that to me they have some limited use, and that there's better options than to use them. I know you know what you're doing, but I think they are throwaway moves, there's never a time where using them can open up a whole new world of options for Jin, which is typical of EX moves in SF games. In many fighting games a character that is pretty meh turns into a monster when they have meter, and that's something Jin can't do. I'm not calling you incompetent, I just think it was a missed opportunity, no need to get upset.

There really isn't a lot I could do with his moveset. I explained that there is more to them than just extra damage, and yes, I needed to post my track record because you worded it like I had never made EX moves before and that I didn't know how to do it (the whole "in the future" thing). Using EX moves, as far as I've been told, was always meant to be an alternative to supers. I main Alex on SF3:TSO, and I use the Boomerang Raid simply because I can use more EX moves that way. I win way more matches withth the EX Air Raid Stomp than the actual SA. How about you suggest something instead of just saying it was a missed opportunity? How could these moves have been altered for EX to make them better? Aside from the juggle suggestion for the EX Lift Kick, because I'm not going to do that, which I explained already. You'll see that there wasn't much I could do outside of things like invul frames and faster start-up/recovery, which is what I did.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: rednavi -RETIRED on September 25, 2011, 05:46:07 am
I have yet to test this version of Jin (DLed but still didn't test it) so if you're searching for EX move ideas I suggest you to make one of them totally invulnerable to projectiles. It's a common practice in SFIV for rush moves to have that property on their EX versions and from what I read Jin needs more tools against projectile users. Dunno if it sounds fine for you :).
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Sean Altly on September 25, 2011, 11:23:08 am
Well, if you get a chance to test it, let me know which move you'd suggest, since that isn't a bad idea. I would assume Demon's Paw would be best for it, but I'd like a second opinion on it.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Cazaki on September 25, 2011, 03:54:52 pm
Nah I didn't mean it like you didn't know how they worked, but whatever. If you want suggestions, then I'll toss them out. Demon's Paw would be a good move to use to get through projectiles unharmed, via complete invincibility to projectiles or super armor and if it works as well as I have it pictured in my head, it'll really make it feel that meter is a way to get over his difficulties. I don't know if Jin already uses stun, since I've never stunned anyone with him, but EX Savage Sword would be a good attack for generating plenty stun, but that might not be an option, so I can see it working better as an armor breaking attack (Because I do have some annoying super armor characters, like Juggernaut.) EX Lift Kick is fine how it is though, I guess. Projectile-invincible Demon's Paw would be all you need though, it's a good idea.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: David1990 on September 25, 2011, 07:51:51 pm
It seems red navi read what i said yesterday that jin needs a move goes through projectiles and yes demon paw will be best suited cause has more range. Kind of agree with cazaki about ex savage sword maybe option armor breaking attack or wall bounce but that's up to you.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: ShiroTori on September 26, 2011, 07:29:16 am
Jin is a blast to use. His AI is a nice challenge too, good job on your first attempt at it!

added links for CM Punk and Jin Kazama.

But... what about Squall? :-\
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Sean Altly on September 26, 2011, 07:40:12 am
Forgot about him, I'll have one up shortly.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: ferretsshadow on September 26, 2011, 08:31:49 am
squals ai is pretty decent so there's no reason to change it..... in fact I hope people realize the more they ask you to do on old projects the longer it takes for mr.x and sub-zero to come out  ;D
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Sean Altly on September 26, 2011, 09:50:11 am
Updated Jin again, just a couple but important changes:

-EX Demon's Paw is completely invulnerable to projectiles
-EX Demon's Paw no longer knocks down, meaning you can use it in combos instead of as a combo finisher

That should give him a decent tool to get past projectiles now. Unless there are some major or critical bugs found, I won't be updating Jin for a bit, I want to focus on finishing Sub-Zero and the endings for SHADEs of Manhattan 2.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Cazaki on September 26, 2011, 08:34:04 pm
squals ai is pretty decent so there's no reason to change it..... in fact I hope people realize the more they ask you to do on old projects the longer it takes for mr.x and sub-zero to come out  ;D

Well it'd be nice for the other CvTW characters to be updated to the status quo early, and have them perfected now, because if not we'll just end up having to wait for them to be updated later on down the road. After they're both released it might be ideal for Sean to go back and update Rorschach, Squall and CM Punk's gameplay to the standard that Jin is at (Not to mention utilizing the not so harsh damage dampener that Jin also uses.), as well as make CvTW iterations of Solid Snake, Det. Garret Laurel and those other characters that don't require new sprites, like Doom, Bison, Goku Z2, Captain America, etc. I just think if we get the more "boring" stuff out of the way now it'll keep us more hype later on when all the brand new characters come out.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Sean Altly on September 27, 2011, 03:22:02 am
So had anyone had a chance to see if the changes to EX Demon's Paw work out well? I'm interested to know if it helps him get around projectiles and if the lack of knockdown makes it good for combos.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Flamme Cadet on September 27, 2011, 03:46:15 am
tried it and it worked fine, you can go through projectiles with it but i dont know if you can do a combo with it because it pushes the opponent a bit.. i think you can use demon paw to finish a combo instead of being part of it
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: XANDERAC on September 27, 2011, 05:39:22 am
On a unrelated note Squall's (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Squall_Leonhart) info and Jin's (http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Jin_Kazama), will be trying out the new changes to the Demon's paw asap though.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: argyone on September 27, 2011, 10:59:04 am
hey.
i really like your jin but i think he could use a few more supermoves.
i mean act. he has 3 and i think you could use the ''ex-combo'' (sry im not good at english) as supermove f.eg.

beside that i really like this char. pls keep up making these great chars for mugen :)
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: David1990 on September 28, 2011, 06:21:27 am
yeah goes through and you can combo with the super, its good. :)
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Nightphall on September 28, 2011, 07:07:33 am
Sean, you might have saw my comment about Sub Zero on You Tube, but I honestly forgot about Jin.

I wasn't disappointed. You do awesome work. I'd like tutoring about coding AI from you if you don't mind. (yes, I do know there are tutorials out there already, but not everyone is good at showing someone how to do something.)
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: BlackiePanther on October 03, 2011, 01:48:36 pm
I loooove how you actually made this! BUT.. One question I haven't seen in this thread..

What basicly happened with Squall. No win-mugen version? I know, I've seen your view on this, but I still want to ask! Because not everyone wants to use mugen 1.0. I just don't like it, and find win-mugen to work better on my computer.

So therefore. No chance for a win-mugen version of Jin? It could be amaaaazing.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Sima Shi on October 03, 2011, 02:05:07 pm
dont complain here

and lol there's a win version of jin there (before he update it on 1.0)
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: XANDERAC on October 03, 2011, 05:11:48 pm
There's also a patch under the edits and add-ons by 2OS, for squall
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly
Post by: Saikoro on October 03, 2011, 05:24:10 pm
I loooove how you actually made this! BUT.. One question I haven't seen in this thread..

What basicly happened with Squall. No win-mugen version? I know, I've seen your view on this, but I still want to ask! Because not everyone wants to use mugen 1.0. I just don't like it, and find win-mugen to work better on my computer.

So therefore. No chance for a win-mugen version of Jin? It could be amaaaazing.

Not to go off topic, but what dont you like about 1.0??
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly & CVSNB
Post by: ShinZankuro on October 05, 2011, 02:24:15 pm
Try to make a Jun Kazama?[Yes, a JUN kazama, the jin's badass mom XD]Sorry the question is that it goes back in TTT2 it would be nice to honor she o/  ;D
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly & CVSNB
Post by: ecthelionv2 on October 05, 2011, 02:34:13 pm
Try to make a Jun Kazama?[Yes, a JUN kazama, the jin's badass mom XD]Sorry the question is that it goes back in TTT2 it would be nice to honor she o/  ;D

He's not going to make Jun since she's not in the roster of his project.

If you want a character, you might as well make it yourself.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly & CVSNB
Post by: FatalX on October 23, 2011, 02:32:02 am

He's not going to make Jun since she's not in the roster of his project.

If you want a character, you might as well make it yourself.

Are you talking about Shades of manhattan, or is it another project ?
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly & CVSNB
Post by: XANDERAC on October 23, 2011, 02:54:20 am
He's talking about Capcom vs the World, and Sean has no intentions of doing any other characters from Tekken as far as I know, this is also mainly because the sprites aren't available and they are not related to the CVTW fullgame project he's planning.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly & CVSNB
Post by: Flowrellik on October 26, 2011, 07:07:41 am
well that's pretty sad if u think about it, but that's his project.
Perhaps after the CVTW project's done some sprites can be done then
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly & CVSNB
Post by: Sean Altly on October 26, 2011, 08:01:45 am
CVSNB does the sprites. I told him if he did any more Tekken characters, I'd be willing to code the character, but I don't really have any desire to do any Tekken sprites myself.
Title: Re: Jin Kazama 1.0 Update by SeanAltly & CVSNB
Post by: Saikoro on October 26, 2011, 03:33:39 pm
CVSNB does the sprites. I told him if he did any more Tekken characters, I'd be willing to code the character, but I don't really have any desire to do any Tekken sprites myself.

If you were to sprite someone, it would be Rad if you guys collaborated on Yoshimitsu in his newfound Street Fighter X Tekken Style. That'd be sweet!!