'Any' story is story is not automatically better than no story. Other M's story was an awful, shallow, sexist mess that thoroughly assassinated Samus' character and made the entire game measurably worse because of how poorly it was executed. Yes it was 'more' of a story, but that is not the same thing as being better.
Xhominid said, June 14, 2014, 12:21:08 amYep, good old fashioned rage.Welp, so much for a substantive debate about the merits of Other M's gameplay. Oh well, plenty of other people to talk with about this.Killer Kong said, June 14, 2014, 12:24:26 amYou mean making stellar games that play really well like 3D World? Yeah what a shitty, antiquated way of doing things. They should just sell out and reinvent the wheel regardless of whether it's necessary or not. The "same crap" happens to be pretty universally acclaimed, so yeah, let them do that with Metroid. 3D World is a great example of being both experimentative whilst simultaneously staying true to the roots of the franchise. In fact I would say Mario is pretty good about balancing experimentation with fidelity to the fundamentals of the series; on the other hand Metroid has really only gone through 2 or so overhauls (Prime and Other M, Super is debatable but it's mostly an outgrowth of the original). And that's not a bad thing or anything, because so far it has worked out in Metroid's favor, give or take a Prime Hunters or Other M.Lolmechy said, June 14, 2014, 04:04:45 amWell no, Other M played like shit too. Sakamoto has no idea what made the series good and he should not be trusted with any further games in the series or be allowed to write character for Samus since we really don't need her to be reduced into a insufferable secondary character in the fucking game she stars in.Well I dunno if I would call it shit, but it definitely had serious issues. The fundamentals of transplanting the 2D style of Metroid gameplay to three dimensions was pretty sound, but the implementation left a lot to be desired: the incredibly stupid switch-to-first-person-combat-to-fire-missiles shit; the rejection of the series's raison d'etre of exploration because you already have all the items, they're just waiting to be activated when you hit the right story event, so just keep following the path laid out for you (compounded by the pointlessness of the few collectables that do exist); the utterly drab and uncreative environments; and those dreadful first person pixel hunt stuff.And that is of course ignoring the story, because the words do not exist to properly denigrate that thing.Speedpreacher said, June 14, 2014, 04:11:12 amKeep Sakamoto on the 2D, have Retro handling the 3D. Worked before.At this point I can't help but have serious doubts that the games he was involved in with before were good because of him. But I dunno, maybe the loss of most constraints in him telling a long shitty story lead to most of Other M's failings.
I feel like a special snowflake considering I liked other M too. I just don´t know much about Samus character to even be angry about it, the game was graphically nice and enjoyable (though very short). I´m just gotta trust Jmorphman on this one cause he loves Samus character and stuff.
Jmorphman said, June 14, 2014, 04:24:08 amWell I dunno if I would call it shit, but it definitely had serious issues. The fundamentals of transplanting the 2D style of Metroid gameplay to three dimensions was pretty sound, but the implementation left a lot to be desired: the incredibly stupid switch-to-first-person-combat-to-fire-missiles shit; the rejection of the series's raison d'etre of exploration because you already have all the items, they're just waiting to be activated when you hit the right story event, so just keep following the path laid out for you (compounded by the pointlessness of the few collectables that do exist); the utterly drab and uncreative environments; and those dreadful first person pixel hunt stuff.That's pretty much what I would describe as shit. Im not sure about the exacts of it (I don't own the game or a wii anymore so I can't exactly replay it), but I do remember everything about the gameplay annoying me to the point that I was just speeding through as fast as possible so it would be over sooner. I guess few of the bosses were ok though.Or maybe the story was just so fucking bad that it distracted me from even noticing whatever little fun the gameplay might have held. I dunno.
The Fisher King said, June 14, 2014, 04:30:21 amI feel like a special snowflake considering I liked other M too. I just don´t know much about Samus character to even be angry about it, the game was graphically nice and enjoyable (though very short). I´m just gotta trust Jmorphman on this one cause he loves Samus character and stuff.I mean, she didn't really have a character before Other M (which is not an inherently terrible thing). But you could make certain assumptions, based on the monologues in Super and Fusion and the Zero Mission manga: she's devoted to justice, she never gives up, she'll go up against the steepest of odds and even her close allies if they stand in the way of galactic peace, and she's suffered immense trauma throughout her life but always rises above it.Other M presents a Samus who goes weak in the knees at the first sight of her former commanding officer because she desperately needs a father figure; who desperately needs a baby put in her; who regresses into a child and gets someone killed when faced with a clone of her parent's killer that's she's already faced half a dozen times (and don't give me that "well this time she thought he was really dead", because she didn't act like that in the manga when first encountering Ridley, and she already went through the "oh my gosh Ridley's alive again" stuff in Super); who is so desperately willing to please someone who does nothing but treat her like absolute crap throughout the entire game and would rather burn to a crisp than decide to enable a passive heat shield because he didn't authorize it yet; who makes no decisions on her own that aren't first handed down by the actual main hero of the game (Adam, who also not only is the only person who gets to play the final level but also runs off with it); and who doesn't seem remotely similar to the woman that appeared in the other Metroid games.
Jmorphman said, June 14, 2014, 04:24:08 amWell I dunno if I would call it shitJmorphman said, June 14, 2014, 04:24:08 amthe incredibly stupid switch-to-first-person-combat-to-fire-missiles shitSearch your feelings, you know it to be true.Yeah, I don't have much to add to this. As long as it's not Another M, I'll wait for more news with great interest.
I just really love Metroid, so even a game that's pretty shitty at being Metroid scratches that itch.
Jmorphman said, June 14, 2014, 04:41:00 amI mean, she didn't really have a character before Other M (but was no worse for the wear). But you could make certain assumptions, based on the monologues in Super and Fusion and the Zero Mission manga: she's devoted to justice, she never gives up, she'll go up against the steepest of odds and even her close allies if they stand in the way of galactic peace, and she's suffered immense trauma throughout her life but always rises above it.Well even without that, the fact that she is one woman who has canonically blown up a good few planets all in name of intergalactic peace suggests that she must have ovaries of... whatever the power suit is made of. A protagonist can have plenty of character if their actions and the results of those action mean something.
Outsider looking in, but the impression I got from Other M was that Sakamoto tried to make Samus more "Japanese" (obedient). Why did he think that was a good idea I have no clue.Can't comment on gameplay but I'd imagine it's not a whole lot better.
Well, the gameplay at least feels like the people who made it have heard of Metroid before.Lolmechy said, June 14, 2014, 04:45:58 amWell even without that, the fact that she is one woman who has canonically blown up a good few planets all in name of intergalactic peace suggests that she must have ovaries of... whatever the power suit is made of. A protagonist can have plenty of character if their actions and the results of those action mean something.Yep, she's got characterization by her actions too (though that applies to most game heroes, it's still something, because I don't get how someone who mudered an entire species and then exploded a planet goes to crying that her ex-commander doesn't want her to play rescue mission with him). She faces armies completely by herself, and always comes out on top.
Jmorphman said, June 14, 2014, 04:24:08 amYep, good old fashioned rage.Welp, so much for a substantive debate about the merits of Other M's gameplay. Oh well, plenty of other people to talk with about this.You say that after Person Man virtually acted like that his opinion is a fact...And I already debated gameplay-wise in another post, so thanks for only using another comment in that I didn't elaborate on.Titiln said, June 14, 2014, 06:49:38 amSpoiler, click to toggle visibilty link is a strong black woman who dont need no manIsn't it sad I knew people was gonna do that sooner or later? But I really doubt that's real...atleast every fiber of my being is hoping I just fell into a troll moment.
Person Man said, June 14, 2014, 04:09:54 am'Any' story is story is not automatically better than no story. Other M's story was an awful, shallow, sexist mess that thoroughly assassinated Samus' character and made the entire game measurably worse because of how poorly it was executed. Yes it was 'more' of a story, but that is not the same thing as being better.1. Thanks for completely ignoring the fact I said it was a bad attempt as if I didn't know how it was received at all.2. "Sexist"...are we seriously using that word AGAIN without knowing what it means? If anything, you are looking at misogynistic, which by technical terms, isn't present in the game either. If anything, it's character derailment of a character that had virtually none.3. Actually, a bad story IS better than no story because it's still better than lauding a character that pretty much has no character and is a cardboard cutout than basically removing it because people randomly started crafting things in it's non-existence.
Xhomnid, we know you have a hard time thinking about this stuff rationally since your brain uses 99% of it's functions on wanking off over anime titties, but even you should be fucking able to understand that Metroid other M is actually sexist. If you don't, you are in some serious denial.
No story > bad story, every time.Using resources on something that will be abhorrently awful (not that most video game scripts are a masterpiece or anything) devalues a game; resources that could go to something else to make the game better. Not that devs shouldn't try to make a story, but I don't think anyone would pass trading a poorly thought out script for a superior game mode.Misogyny would be the more accurate term, but sexist (in which misogyny is one kind of sexist attitude) isn't wrong. If the story writer(s) thought that having a woman go through the "be an obedient solder at all costs" shit was going to fly overseas (where most of the fandom was located), they was in for a rude awaking (which rightfully happened). The fact that the lead female was reduced to a complete subordinate to some guy who isn't nearly as important implies that females of lesser influence should be treated with just as little respect if not less.EDIT: term is actually "male chauvisnism" (belief that men are superior to women). regardless of the term, point is that samus is defiled as someone who doesn't fight off a "sexist environment" (which is also bad characterization because there's nothing awesome about being bossed around by a secondary character).
Xhominid said, June 14, 2014, 10:38:25 am3. Actually, a bad story IS better than no story because it's still better than lauding a character that pretty much has no character and is a cardboard cutout than basically removing it because people randomly started crafting things in it's non-existence.That is objectively false. Also I honestly don't know what you're trying to say in the last half of that sentenceLet's say, for the sake of argument, that 'fun' is something that can be measured by an objective, quantifiable amount. Now say we have two games that are exactly the same amount of fun. Game A has fun gameplay, but has no really significant story or characters. Game B also has fun gameplay, but has a terribly written story and characters that are not believable and unlikable, and which actively detracts from a player's enjoyment of the game. In this case, Game A is a demonstrably better game for not having a story because even though gameplay-wise they're identical, Game B is less fun to play because of the extra elements that ruin the player's experience.In other words: If I have two cakes, one with chocolate frosting and one with chocolate frosting and a giant turd, I'm not going to eat the turd cake just because there is technically more stuff on it.
Quote3. Actually, a bad story IS better than no story because it's still better than lauding a character that pretty much has no character and is a cardboard cutout than basically removing it because people randomly started crafting things in it's non-existence.lol no.You can have a spider-man game where you have no story and you just beat up bad guys and you can have a spider-man game where the story is that he got raped by his main villain the hobgoblinator and now is seeking him out to rape him in revenge.the first is okay the second is disgusting and stupid.Other M seems to fall squarely into disgusting and stupid by removing Samus traits in order to make her a super anime waifu, any kind of character assassination effectively turns the story worse.
Have you guys seen Mario Maker?Mario Maker Will Include More Art Styles Than Just Mario Games.http://mynintendonews.com/2014/06/13/mario-maker-will-include-more-art-styles-than-just-mario-games/It would be great if we could also make and build like other Mario game styles from the Nes and Snes.
Do you mind, we're in the middle of a heated argument. How rude.Spoiler, click to toggle visibiltyOmega said, June 14, 2014, 02:19:14 pmIt would be great if we could also make and build like other Mario game styles from the Nes and Snes.You can already do NES-style, Snes would be nice.Iced said, June 14, 2014, 02:04:26 pmYou can have a spider-man game where you have no story and you just beat up bad guys and you can have a spider-man game where the story is that he got raped by his main villain the hobgoblinator and now is seeking him out to rape him in revenge.Doc Oct would've been better for the villian role.I just want a game that wipes the stench of the most recent effort. Preferably in 2D, focusing on solid gameplay design, and not going to the other end of the extreme because "we must redeem Samus character" or whatever.
