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Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes (Read 29176 times)

Started by JustNoPoint, November 03, 2015, 09:18:02 pm
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Bastard Mami

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#21  November 18, 2015, 02:58:34 am
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Odb718 said, November 17, 2015, 11:41:05 pm

tip3 is deprecated, is just some shit elecbyte made up when they amde up teh magical prioroity number because they had no idea how fighting games worked.

Odb718 said, November 17, 2015, 11:41:05 pm
I know it's silly to equate to real life, but the kick would win every time.
not really, in real life both would get hit, the one who was moreprepared for impact woudl relatively win, so if the abse of the palm of the hand hits an untrained shin, it would win, maybe even break the shin.

Odb718 said, November 17, 2015, 11:41:05 pm
Obviously the Guile example is pretty old, but let's go with it. The only reason I can imagine for the attack box to be higher is to counter air attacks. Someone standing's getting hit, someone crouching's getting hit. There isnt a character in the game who's shorter. EVEN if they were shorter, that's even MORE reason to lower the red bar. Maybe Dhalsim's slide in, but if Capcom made his boxes tighter the two wouldnt connect.

it's there so crouching kicks can go belos it; fighting games are a complex game of rock-paper-scissors.

Odb718 said, November 17, 2015, 11:41:05 pm
BTW, This is supposed to be the guide. Up until now I've never seen a full discussion or set of rules for how high your crouching light punch box should be off the ground. I've only seen guides on how to rip source or heard people complain it's not source. There's no Mugen hitbox discussion that I've seen til this thread.
I doubt it's even possible to try and combine or put together basic thoughts on clsn boxes that arent centered around 1 game.  Even if you could, that game wouldnt be Mugen.
No one will answer why you should be able to punch air.

you have not been there long enough or have not payed enoguh attention, those discussions do happen, though not  very often, maybe once a year or so.
you are thinking tht fighting games companies are monolitch, btu that's far from the truth, people taht created sf2, left adn joined snk to create samsho, people that worked on world heroes left and worked on guilty gear; people who worked on kof went and worked on dark angels; non doujin fighting games share a lot of common traits, clsns balance is one of those.

Cyanide

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#22  November 18, 2015, 05:44:17 am
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Hit boxes are designed to show motion over time. Not only that they are there to allow for the character to ADJUST his own attack without the sprites to do it. If someone is a little low for your standard kick in real life, do you go through with it anyway, or adjust so as to hit them. This is why the boxes detail certain aspects of the sprite and don't adhere to pixels.

Random gaps and ignoring the movement through the attack that we can't actually see is bad hitbox design.

Hit boxes cater for the things the sprites don't, or can't show. If you ignore those you get something that misses when it really shouldn't, or punishes things that ought to trade hits.


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Odb718

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#23  November 19, 2015, 11:08:40 am
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Jesuszilla said, November 18, 2015, 02:47:32 am

Now here's my favorite. The hitboxes are not placed right where his legs are. Do you want to know why? Because he wouldn't be able to fucking hit most opponents if I didn't do this! He would be too high off the ground to even hit Ryu unless I put him at an unreasonably low height that would cause him to land faster and not look as good in motion.
What you're saying is, instead of worrying about when, and where, and who, your attack can/could hit, you'll fudge it and sorta-kinda cheat a bit. I dont believe in that. Make a different move. Or use another move. And yes, I know he's custom. Why dont you add the ability for Dhalsim to CMP your leg? You can edit the code so he doesnt land as fast. I have this sort of code for when you're falling doing a fireball/missile. It's very noticable in Samus. She'll quickly slow to a stop if she gets too close to the ground when shooting her missiles. (Not that she's the best)
I'm not saying this to get your goat or anything, but I can help you if you think it'd be a good option for him.

Bastard Mami said, November 18, 2015, 02:58:34 am
Odb718 said, November 17, 2015, 11:41:05 pm
Obviously the Guile example is pretty old, but let's go with it. The only reason I can imagine for the attack box to be higher is to counter air attacks. Someone standing's getting hit, someone crouching's getting hit. There isnt a character in the game who's shorter. EVEN if they were shorter, that's even MORE reason to lower the red bar. Maybe Dhalsim's slide in, but if Capcom made his boxes tighter the two wouldnt connect.

it's there so crouching kicks can go below it; fighting games are a complex game of rock-paper-scissors.
IF the crouching kick and the crouching punch happen to connect, they SHOULD connect. But, I'm imagining tight hitboxes on P2's kick. It's the fact that the "Normal" hit box will be fat and clunky; Then that edit to Guile is needed. If both hitboxes were tight, there'd be no problem and it'd actually be far more accurate.

Cyanide said, November 18, 2015, 05:44:17 am
Hit boxes are designed to show motion over time. Not only that they are there to allow for the character to ADJUST his own attack without the sprites to do it. If someone is a little low for your standard kick in real life, do you go through with it anyway, or adjust so as to hit them. This is why the boxes detail certain aspects of the sprite and don't adhere to pixels.

Random gaps and ignoring the movement through the attack that we can't actually see is bad hitbox design.

Hit boxes cater for the things the sprites don't, or can't show. If you ignore those you get something that misses when it really shouldn't, or punishes things that ought to trade hits.
I pick, or should say I'm forced, to use a certain set of attacks when fighting Roll, Servbot, and Onsokumaru. As you can see with my Dhalsim's kick, I do have a bit of leeway on the attack box. I totally agree with You Cyanide. A little bit of wiggle room is needed. But will I make Ryu's overhead punch go down to the floor so it can hit tiny characters? No, cuz it's sorta cheating. Do I think you think that? Nope.
I also agree with ignoring the attack's movement is pretty bad. I didnt edit ALL of Mai, but if you look at 210/215/245 you can see how my movement is shown, and how I use the same frame duplicated and drop the attack for counters.
I _think_ this is one of the basics I frankensprited for her. This is her 420/CFP so I'm pretty sure it's the one I added.

You can see I use an astounding TEN clsn boxes in the second sprite. If a character/my opponent is good enough to time a trade on her hand, awesome. I think they should be able to do that. If P2 is trying to drop an air knee attack, the swipe of the fan should connect. And because she's attacking and stops, the fan should still be unable to be punched. When she's bringing back her arm she's wide open, but punching the fan shouldnt hurt her.
You can say I COULD do it with less. I can sort of agree, but WHY? Why make it sloppier? Sure you could combine the head, arm, and hand boxes in the last frame,
but again,
Why should you be able to punch air? Why should you be able to punch in between her hand and her head? Motion???
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Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#24  November 19, 2015, 11:40:03 am
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Oh fuck are we going to bring the "you punched my sword" argument into here as well.

Odb718

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#25  November 19, 2015, 12:44:52 pm
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I'm not actually interested in that, we're talking about hitboxes.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
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Bastard Mami

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#26  November 19, 2015, 06:09:08 pm
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now we are just going in circles, if you refuse to listen that's ok, if anything this serves to new users can read the most common misconceptions (thanks to you) and know why things in real games are not like that.

The 100 Mega Shock!

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#27  November 19, 2015, 07:34:22 pm
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Something I just remembered, KOF XIII has excellent examples of boxes not lining up 1:1 with the sprites as (aside from SNK sticking to the same 2/3 box layout in their previous games) Kyo and NESTS Kyo have a lot of wildly variying boxes even on normals with the same animations.

Odb718 said, November 19, 2015, 12:44:52 pm
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Despite the sprite, that is Blaziken's jumping LK, in which I'm following MvC box conventions so it has an unusually large blue box that covers the entire foot - similarily Kamekaze's MvC3 Ken has large red boxes to match the source games, and I probably frame advanced that to just the right frame where they're touching each other by pixels to get a nice shot. Please don't cherrypick from WIP stills like that.
Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 07:56:28 pm by The 100 Mega Shock!

TTTTTsd

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#28  November 19, 2015, 10:03:12 pm
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I don't see how making a hitbox not line up with a move in lieu of its designed purpose is fudging it. Animation is there to animate, hitboxes are there to hit things. They work in tandem but not always 1:1 with each other. To go back to square one with your Sim example, his blue box is like that so that jump ins can actually hit it in MOST instances, because hitboxes are and always will be designed (in fighting games at least) with UNIVERSALITY in mind because that's what makes a strong, stable game that doesn't work in janky ways. Hitboxes have wide punish windows on moves like that to promote FLEXIBILITY and CONSISTENCY, two things you want your game to have at a top level, Alpha 3 was designed for this, hence its boxes follow this kind of rule, especially on a normal that goes fullscreen. This also has the additional benefit of having your hitboxes EASIER TO UNDERSTAND and lab out punishes for if they're cohesive, simple, and for the most part allow flexible punishing and trades. This creates and enhances the dynamic.

tl;dr the blue boxes are giant so an assortment of moves can actually properly hit them, which is VERY important in Sim's case.

You can debate how good of an idea it is or not but the point stands that Capcom has been doing this for longer than all of us and they have created the most successful competitive fighting game series based on this very groundwork. I'd be all for change if it wasn't change that wasn't necessary.

Also the reason Blanka's face and lower legs can't get hit is because the fundamental point of jumping in a fighting game is to avoid being hit and attempting to gain positional advantage or to transition from neutral to advantage, which you can not do if your jump boxes leave you TOO open. Otherwise jumping is too much of a risk to be worth it against anyone with anti airs.

I don't plan on contributing any more points since my stance won't change, I'm simply attempting to explain the reasoning behind these hitboxes. They also did it like this to be efficient as well as productive for the players so it's ultimately incredibly smart design, since drawing rectangular hitboxes actually DOES take some doing for arcade boards and too much of them can cause problems IIRC.

But are there truly grown men in this world?!
Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 10:10:19 pm by Killer Kong

The 100 Mega Shock!

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#29  November 19, 2015, 10:17:51 pm
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SFIV also works like a CPS game to some extent, they generally have between 2 and 4 big hand-placed boxes on the stance/movement anims (this includes jumping boxes like the old games, also everyone has a HUGE crouching hurtbox) and during the active frames of many moves, before switching to many boxes automatically aligned to the character's skeleton during recovery frames. Bet SFV works much the same way.
Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 10:24:33 pm by The 100 Mega Shock!

XGargoyle

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#30  November 19, 2015, 11:51:55 pm
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oh yeah, definitely Mai needs a specific clsn for her boobs
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Odb718

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#31  November 20, 2015, 03:25:31 am
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Killer Kong said, November 19, 2015, 10:03:12 pm
They work in tandem but not always 1:1 with each other. To go back to square one with your Sim example, his blue box is like that so that jump ins can actually hit it in MOST instances, because hitboxes are and always will be designed (in fighting games at least) with UNIVERSALITY in mind because that's what makes a strong, stable game that doesn't work in janky ways.
This also has the additional benefit of having your hitboxes EASIER TO UNDERSTAND and lab out punishes for if they're cohesive, simple, and for the most part allow flexible punishing and trades. This creates and enhances the dynamic.

Also the reason Blanka's face and lower legs can't get hit is because the fundamental point of jumping in a fighting game is to avoid being hit and attempting to gain positional advantage or to transition from neutral to advantage, which you can not do if your jump boxes leave you TOO open. Otherwise jumping is too much of a risk to be worth it against anyone with anti airs.

I don't plan on contributing any more points since my stance won't change, I'm simply attempting to explain the reasoning behind these hitboxes. They also did it like this to be efficient as well as productive for the players so it's ultimately incredibly smart design, since drawing rectangular hitboxes actually DOES take some doing for arcade boards and too much of them can cause problems IIRC.
Thank you for your answers. They're actually REAL answers.
The reason I like tight tight tight hitboxes is so there's no guess work. If you see an arm or whatever, where ever it's at, you should be able to hit it if you have the skill. What's easier to understand, the ability to punch air randomly, or being able to attack what you see? Punching air is far more janky in my honest opinion. I disagree that it enhances the fighters/fighting dynamic.

I dont believe in not being able to block while jumping. I've edited most of the characters in my roster so most of their moves can be blocked in the air. SFEX characters is a prime example. MvC characters should be able to block in the air even against the SFEX characters. Yes, other edits are needed to boost their attack prowess.
umping in safely comes down to learning your character and opponent. The character's overall size is both a benefit and a drawback. So it neutralizes itself out. Making a hitbox smaller so the character could get around a projectile it shouldnt is unfair in my opinion. Projectile heights from all the different characters out there wont be uniform. Guessing what size the box(es) should be is just that, guess work.

Please consider replying.
Also, thinking about the actual arcade board it makes sense on the old hardware. I dont think 1.0 mugen would/could have those limitations. As I and others have suggested, 10 hitboxes isnt a lot.

XGargoyle said, November 19, 2015, 11:51:55 pm
oh yeah, definitely Mai needs a specific clsn for her boobs
Yeah I was considering doing that but then I decided shoulder to shoulder would be best.
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JustNoPoint

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#32  November 20, 2015, 03:38:11 am
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Quote
The reason I like tight tight tight hitboxes is...
It was never a question of preference though. I already said you can like whatever you wish. Just that when teaching the standard should be taught. Not your personal modified preference. All this time it seemed more like you were trying to redefine how CLSNs should work in MUGEN.

Bastard Mami said, November 19, 2015, 06:09:08 pm
now we are just going in circles, if you refuse to listen that's ok, if anything this serves to new users can read the most common misconceptions (thanks to you) and know why things in real games are not like that.
All this will help me better explain in the new tutorial I'll be making too :)

TTTTTsd

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#33  November 20, 2015, 07:37:04 am
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Alright, I'll address what you had to say. On the subject of Point A

- I think the way you design hitboxes ends up as far more guesswork for the player than a general blue area you can hit (regardless of if it's hitting the air or not). A general rule of thumb when designing hitboxes for moves should ALWAYS be that people don't have to actually look at the hitboxes to understand where and how to punish the move, and this is ESPECIALLY important outside of MUGEN (it's important inside too because intuitive design). Why is that big blue gap intuitive? You can punish it with a wide variety of things, people don't have to literally AIM for his leg, they can aim for the general area and that creates LENIENCY and FAIR GAME DESIGN because it improves the reliability of your reactions and interactions. Literal hitboxes have traditionally sucked hot ass in Capcom games (pardon my language, they just have). Gief's anti air Super in Alpha 2 uses literal grab boxes (it's only on his hand) which results in it losing to damn near everything and only catching people at the APEX of their jumps. It's worse than Rose's METERLESS anti air grab and it's a good reinforcement of my point. Hitboxes being literal is quite arbitrary and also inhibiting for either the player attempting to punish the move or in some cases the player actually USING the move. If you want a direct example of the fundamental reason you should always design hitboxes applicable to move function over attaching them SOLELY to the animation, Shoryuken would be terrible in SF2 and onwards if they did this.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Imagine if the red box was bound solely to his arm. It would suck at discouraging jumps, punishing careless attempts at jumping, and general footsies. It would be horrible for reversals if his body had blue boxes because the point of the move is to be a REVERSAL and go THROUGH fireballs because that's how neutral and flow in Super Turbo work, I can't think of a better example where literal hitboxes are NOT a good idea, it would practically ruin all the fundamentals ST taught the FGC about fighting games. Move function and design intent should ALWAYS be prioritized when it comes to hitboxes because otherwise your moves may lack cohesion, structure, or they may even lack a use (like Gief's anti air super, it's seriously garbage).
- My comment on jump boxes had nothing to do with air blocking. Air blocking isn't an issue for me at all, but when your jump box is too damn big everything will hit you anyways, even if you air block you are sacrificing position because of pushback. It inhibits safe jumping, a fundamental aspect of fighting games ever since SF2, it inhibits jumping away as a strategy, it just makes jumping worse period. Jump boxes are designed like jump boxes to make jumping not a terrible option.

This is legitimately my last post and final rebuttal. I've provided pretty clear examples for both and it should probably be more than enough evidence for anyone else hopping in here to decide for themselves.

But are there truly grown men in this world?!
Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 07:44:13 am by Killer Kong

JustNoPoint

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#34  November 20, 2015, 11:19:37 am
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I'm on my phone so I can't post an image but 1 last good example would be Ryu's jumping MK. It's the exact same animation as his jSK but it acts as a cross up. The red extends from the kicking foot all the way back to the non kicking foot. Looked at literally it's like the back of the kick hits you when he jumps over you. It's a very specific functuality that separates the exact same frames and makes the attacks have totally unique uses.

Jango

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#35  November 20, 2015, 01:00:54 pm
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I like doing KOF-style hitboxes. For the most part, they're simple (like maybe three hittable boxes max) and they get the job done. I didn't have any hitbox viewer when I made Pupa, so I looked at how KOF did some attacks and I borrowed some of that philosophy. To be fair, it's probably the easiest style to mimic, the easiest to actually access (Winkawaks with developer debug dipswitches), and more often than not will accomplish what you want it to accomplish.

Now to sit back and enjoy the nerd rage.

Bastard Mami

Re: Tutorial Part 2 - Collision boxes
#36  November 20, 2015, 07:13:41 pm
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Just No Point said, November 20, 2015, 03:38:11 am

there are a few valid reasons to use more boxes, but they are not valid in mugen; some game engines will allow you to detect which box exactly was hit, so you can do low/high animations or do different damages depending on the box that was hit, it's probably the reason why in some games capcom uses more boxes event though in practice some of those are just one box split in two.
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