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Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions

 August 17, 2013, 07:51:48 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Feedback to Warnings/Decisions (Started by Iced February 24, 2012, 09:43:26 pm
 Board: Feedback
MC2 Da Palette Gale said, August 17, 2013, 05:05:35 pm
Wait Darkflare seriously said that every super is unsafe on block?

LOL.
I think he only meant it for fullscreen moves, but yes he did say something like that.
Let me find it...oh yes, here :

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Having a fullscreen super be SAFE ON BLOCK or have any super deal RIDICULOUS chip damage does NOT punish you for your careless meter management.
I think he might have realized spending the power and getting no damage is enough punishment regardless of frames later, as his next post was

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Even your precious Touhou fighter that you love so much got that right. Missed that 5 card spellcard attack? Well, you just wasted 5 cards for nothing, good job.
After that, he didn't post anything more about it. At that time I facepalmed because the move we were talking about didn't do noticeable block damage (11 to be specific), so what he posted was what the move actually did.
    

Re: Feedback to Warnings/Decisions

 August 17, 2013, 12:01:24 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Feedback to Warnings/Decisions (Started by Iced February 24, 2012, 09:43:26 pm
 Board: Feedback
All right, I'm going to accept both your apologies and we can move on. Not sure if I want to keep posting at Guild, somehow things always end up in drama. It's starting to feel like taking a bath in a lake full of piranhas willingly...
I have to think more about that. Lots of thanks to the admins for this discussion, it seems to have helped.
Authors come here because they want to talk about their work. Not their personality.  People giving feedback need to understand that.
However, as I haven't talked about my viewpoint in here yet, the majority of the stuff happened on my site and Youtube, a quick summary of what I feel has happened in the correct order.
The two things that made me the most angry are in bold.

-RicePigeon was posting feedback about characters as usual. Nothing wrong there. He posted like 30 or more issues total in the 4 characters he tested. I fixed about 90% of those and explained why I want to keep the rest unchanged. I think I haven't left any single thing unadressed. I was looking forward to what he was going to find in the remaining 18 characters.
-There were three discussions where RicePigeon and/or Darkflare was really persistent. For one of those, I eventually went with Darkflare's suggestion. It was something I considered of minor importance, but reducing the block damage of Royal Flush was probably the right choice. The other thing was about a projectile but that already had an open poll about one property of the move so I didn't want to change others. RicePigeon was quite persistent in trying to explain why he thinks the normal and the fast version needs to be doing the same amount of damage, despite the priority of the projectile being up in the poll, which, if changed, could have affected everything else about the move, opening up the way to make it the way he wanted. This already made me feel that he is overly persistent but it hasn't turned into a problem.
-The last matter was the blockstun amount of a level 2 fullscreen, invincible super. My version had it at +17 frame advantage (his original version was +30). I agreed that +17 is too much and reduced it to +5. I also mentioned that I consider this somewhat unimportant, as the move doesn't do much block damage making it bad for you if it's blocked even with advantage, as it costs a lot of power to use.
-Darkflare started to push the concept "every super move needs to always be punishable" on me. I resisted.
-I'm not sure how this went on, but eventually RicePigeon tried to convince me that the move should be punishable on block along with Darkflare. I explained that the idea behind the move is that it does very low damage but it's safe to use. They kept pushing for it and eventually posted the first video.
-At this point I got angry. Since the feedback was already given, and I already explained why I intend to not change things (more than once, I believe), I assumed there are certain negative intentions behind the video, because it should have been already obvious that pressing the matter further wouldn't result in a change. I expected the video to escalate the problem and instigate actual harassment, or even more mockery. While I had no way of knowing whether causing drama was his intention or not, I assumed he knows he can expect that. By the way, I'm not sure if "harassment" was the correct word to us there, mockery does seem to fit better. Mockery is a form of harassment, I guess.
-I posted a similar video in return (wasn't linked in the thread, only in videos because it was offtopic, as it wasn't showing my character), showing RicePigeon's original of the same move (which was +30 on block), and warned him that I find his behavior offensive.
-RicePigeon didn't post much from this point onward, but the other people, especially Sanae started to derail the topic into a discussion about my personality as far as I remember (which people should have already known isn't perfect, I'm not exactly new here.)
-Instead, RicePigeon made a post on my site. The contents were pretty much identical to that what his followers said, that I have talent and he thinks he needs to steer me into the right direction. Well, that is very rude. No one ever has the right to force their own decisions and way of thinking on another person. It feels even more wrong when it is said about a trait on a character he himself released with the same trait on steroids (Original was +30 on block).
-Then I made a blog post explaining the above.
-Sanae posted some sort of a mocking video about my personality and blog post. I didn't want to get even more angry so I only watched the first minute.
-I made another blog post, pointing out this has happened already. I tried to make it clear that I'm still unsure of RicePigeon's intentions, while I'm already sure that his followers are bad. I was giving him a chance to redeem himself after reading my posts, because, truth to be told, the majority of insults were coming from the followers. I decided to judge him based on his next action.
-At this point, he posted the Harassment.avi. Worst timing ever. I guess everyone knows the rest.

In short, the greatest problem (other than the mockery) was that Team RicePigeon seemed to think they have the right to tell me what to do. I hope that will also change now. Giving advice and steering/forcing people are different things. I have no problem with the first, but I consider the second unacceptable.

I'm going to forgive everyone involved, let's forget about the whole thing. I do expect you to change your ways and keep things to actual feedback and advice, however.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 16, 2013, 09:53:02 am View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
Cool, now that is a real bug and I'm going to fix it. The title of Harassment.avi tells me you actually still want to instigate even more drama though.
I'm locking this and I won't post betas and releases here any longer.
If you truly want to help, which I'm doubting now, you can post feedback on my site, or send an email/PM on Youtube (you aren't on the ignore list, only Daniel is so far).
Anyone else finding a bug or requesting a change can do the same thing.
Finally, no amount of possible improvements are worth this much drama and frustration. I rather have more bugs in my characters than having to put up with this to find out about them. So either do it without trying to "steer" me into your perceived right direction, or don't do it at all. I hate it the most when someone thinks they have the authority to tell me what to do. If I agree with the problem you tell me, I'll fix it. If I don't I'll probably not bother with explaining the reason for it any longer and will just ignore it.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 14, 2013, 02:25:56 am View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
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Okay, I'm gonna make all of my characters's attacks unblockable and with no cornerpush at all and call them playable :) Because there's no correct way or should be and only I am the judge of it :)
That's not exactly the same level of issue as the blockstun duration on a move than can be used about once per round at best.
I have actually seen characters like that, well not the unblockable part, but every single normal move on them was an infinite. You know what? It's one my friend's favorite characters and he loves to abuse it.  It's an anime character he admires for her overpowered abilities, so... :D
He also made me add abilities like a shield that can be used while in a hit state that grants permanent invulnerability for the rest of the match o_O

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What games did you play? o_O I'm quite sure there's quite a lot fun fighters for everyone's tastes
Let's see...
Eternal Fighter Zero. Got owned by projectile spam from Unknown when I wasn't playing the mage. Got owned by the final boss who is very fast and can attack anywhere on the screen when I played the mage because the mage is slow. I was trying easy...
Akaitsuki Blitzkamp I think. I think I got owned on the stage where TWO opponents with a full lifebar attack me simultaneously when I'm alone. The game was very uninteresting anyway, it was based on a rock-paper-scrissors concept of using throws, barriers and attacks or something like that. Throws hit barriers, Barriers hit attacks, and attacks hit throws...
I think that's where I gave up, also tried some fighting game characters in Mugen but they were excessively hard to control compared to my own standards and back then things weren't all that balanced as now so I couldn't do much.
Long ago I played GGX, my only memory of that is spamming random buttons meant I was able to beat my friend who spent 6 years to beat the final boss of the game. And that I was able to beat the game (not sure if on easy or normal) with the same button spam method.
I also played Cardhunter Sakura, which was probably the only fighting game I truly enjoyed. It was a very simple and old game however.
Oh, and Magical Heroines Plus. That wasn't that bad (can't compare to Mugen though), but I couldn't beat the Doremi robot, it did like 25% damage to me and took like 1-2% from my hits...

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I'm quite sure you can make a fun fighter you like even if you follow a fighting game's mechanics and logic.
I usually do that unless it explicitly contradicts with the purpose of that specific move. In this case, making a move that follows the concept of being as safe as possible to do crappy damage would very much contradict having it punishable on block. I have no problems with making moves punishable on block in other cases, for example I did it on Master Spark when asked.

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I'm quite sure "punishing mistakes harshly" is when the author has gotten up to the point where he doesn't listen and it's quite necessary so he realizes that if he's gonna act badly then he won't be getting nice things anymore. Unless he were to actually understand others once again and work it up. Indeed it causes frustration, but you see it's not made without measure. When you see repeated behavior like this it really makes people want to give these creators a slap in the wrists, specially the ones that do show potential.
You misunderstood this part. I was talking about using a super move in the wrong way and getting punished by it somewhat (no damage for the power spent, my preference) versus harshly (and also get hit by the opponent and take lots of damage).
Punishing authors is a different story. You "punish" authors by not using their characters, and that's it. Don't think you need to punish an author for doing things in a different way. Maybe his target audience (which ideally includes himself) likes it that way. Maybe you aren't part of the target audience. See the example about my friend's favorite character above. If I were to release that THING, everyone would say that's a horrible character (including myself). Yet, there is one person who loves it.

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Also, the video did show problems that YOU committed and did wrong.
I still stand by my original view that this particular thing can be done both ways and neither is wrong. Which is why I disapprove of that video.

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However, a problem that seems common here is that you take things too personally, simply put.
Yes, I do. I might even be paranoid. When I was still an MTG player, my cards got stolen at least 5 times. In one of those cases, the thief was allowed to walk away even though everyone knew who did it (I warned the judge as I was the first victim and they stole them while "trading" so it was obvious who did it), and he kept stealing at the event for the rest of the day from everyone. When playing online games, I kept hearing "we'll never close the server" and "we'll never wipe data". They always did it, usually in less than a year. I could probably write many many more pages but let's just say I can no longer trust people at all and leave it at that. I often assume bad intentions from others, and a video like that is plenty to trigger that.

Awww 2 am and I'm still not calm at all. Looks like I'm going to need Gerodorm for today.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 14, 2013, 01:04:57 am View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
While I do want feedback and bug free characters, I'm starting to very seriously doubt it's worth this much frustration.

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And here's the main problem...
It's not much of a problem when a lot of people like my creations exactly because they are different than those.
If you aren't among them, that's unfortunate, that means you aren't in my "target audience", to use an ANIDB term.

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So you're paranoid.
I can thank Mugen for that.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 14, 2013, 12:34:34 am View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
I have heard plenty of reasonable arguments about why it should be punishable on block, and I made plenty of reasonable arguments about why it can remain safe on block.
There is no "should be", "correct way", or "superior knowledge" in this matter. Both are valid, acceptable choices. Neither makes the character worse or better. Some people prefer it this way, some people prefer it that way.
I don't see the point in hearing any more of that.

While they might understand fighters better than me, here is one thing they don't understand.
I don't like how those fighters work. Mugen is the only fighting game I play. There is a reason for that. I tried other games and they were not fun. They were frustrating. It was a torture to play them in a few cases. So while I'm willing to accept advice about fighting games where the reasoning behind them coincides with my primary goal (making a fun game), I will never aim to make everything the same way because I know I wouldn't like the result. I aim to make different, more fun characters than that. So fighting game knowledge isn't always relevant.
Their concept is to punish mistakes harshly in all cases with no exception as much as possible. Punishing mistakes is ok, and necessary, but you have to use that concept with moderation, just like everything else. If you overdo it, people will get frustrated by everything they try backfiring on them, and end up playing a different game. I know I would.

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Problem here is that you're also ignoring or disregarding everyone else's partially or completely, and from people who have a much better understanding at how fighters work mind you.
Okay. I got a list of about 50 problems as feedback. I fixed about 40 of those. I explained why it's like that for the remaining 10. Three of those started long discussions, the rest were probably accepted. For one, I eventually went along with the advice (reduced block damage on Royal Flush) and looking back it seems like a good decision. One more is on hold because it depends on another open issue (Orreries Sun projectile's damage and velocity depending on its priority), currently it's 8 out of 12 for keeping the projectile destroy others while moving forward unharmed. So in this case, the majority of people don't want RicePigeon's suggestion. As I'm neutral on this matter (the high priority projectiles are a bit annoying when facing Mima, but it's a useful attack when I play her), I will go with whichever option gets the majority. And finally, there was one remaining issue, the Event Horizon. RicePigeon said it's +17 on block and it's too much. He was right, I reduced it to +5. I could even reduce it to +0, it wouldn't really matter and wouldn't make any difference. But that's as low as it can go. It won't be punishable on block.
Saying I'm not willing to listen when I actually implemented 95% of what I was told is unfair.

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and send up propaganda like "SERAVY MUST DIE"
I have seen comments like that under similar hate videos when I was new to this, so I'm a lot more sensitive to these videos than other people. Specifically, one guy wanted to cut my hands off. Just because no such comment was posted yet, doesn't mean it wont' happen again. The video is clearly meant to instigate people into thinking that I'm doing things wrong.

But you know what?
People love my characters. People vote for keeping the move safe on block.
Despite that I have to read
"I fail to see how it's harassment if RicePigeon is pointing out the flaws in the move. It tells him (and many others) that you don't actually have a clue what you're doing."
"-completely disregarding people who know more than you. Big check"
"Even characters with absolutely no knowledge of frame advantage get this better than Seravy did. >_<"

Get off your damn high horses people. You aren't always automatically right just because you think you are.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 13, 2013, 10:07:27 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
C.A.N said, August 13, 2013, 09:42:34 pm
Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 09:33:47 pm
The next person doing it is going to be reported. Authors have the right to make their characters in the way they see fit.
And everybody has the right to criticize. °3°
Sure.
-My problem isn't that someone doesn't like the guard.slidetime on Event Horizon.
-My problem isn't that someone expresses this opinion here in a critical way.
-My problem isn't that they try to explain why they think it's better in another way.
-My problem is that after I explained why I consider my version better, and stated that it is not going to be changed, they still keep going about it and ignore my opinion altogether.

Criticizing would be something like
"Sorry to see this decision, it would have been better that way."
and stopping there.

What happened instead was

"You should do X,Y and Z!
Does Y and Z. Umm, X is not really necessary, a smaller change is enough to fix that problem.
But you should do X because..
No, I won't do it because...
But you should do X because..
No, stop asking, I already said why not.
But you should do X because..
No, stop asking.
But you should do X because..
No, stop asking.
See, I posted a video telling everyone you are an idiot who doesn't do X even though I said so. Haha.
Gets angry."

That's not criticizing, that's spamming and trolling. Or at least that's the feeling that came across, and I'm not going to read 2 whole pages to see how many times he asked. At least one too many and that one was the video.

Edit : Ok, there were only two posts after I said stop from RicePigeon, the video and the post two hours ago. I guess I'm a bit overreacting as usual. It felt a lot more because he was also pressing for other stuff (the Orreries projectile), and Darkflare also posted once. (although he seems to have got lost somewhere because he said there should be no block damage and there isn't, this move had frame advantage...)
Still, making a video like that for a difference of 10 on guard.slidetime on one move which is a super is not something I can understand or accept. It definitely feels like an offensive act to me and a very excessive way of expressing opinions.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 13, 2013, 09:33:47 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
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Opponent blocks? Simply connect with a jab during the 5 frame window at the end to start a 220+ damage combo that you would have otherwise gotten if the opponent had not blocked.
The opponent is already blocking. The jab will get blocked. The jab is -3 on block. Too bad, no combo for you and no more advantage. And no, 5 ticks aren't enough to try an overhead. If the opponent blocks low, there is no way you are gonna hit them. When it was +17, yes, that was a bit of a problem. But it's +5 now. You can't even go for a tick throw because Mima's throw doesn't hit low.

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EDIT: just for the record, posting something like this seems to give off the impression that you're talking this thing way too personally, especially that bit at 1:33.
You are not doing that to provide feedback. You already posted the feedback here. I already answered it, too. You and other people pushed for the change a few more times, and I said I won't do it and it's final, and let's stop this and talk about something else. Then you post a video like that. Why?
It's hard not to take your video personal when you label it as "how to code fullscreen attacks tutorial by Seravy". That title is a personal one. Very much so, actually. And it's public. You even posted in the video thread. You intentionally didn't mention the low damage which is balancing the whole move out, despite knowing about it. It gives off the feeling that you are trying to make fun of me, or to make others think I'm a bad creator. This is not the first time it happens, either. You did similar videos about bugs in BETA versions of Kaguya and Marisa. Bugs that were fixed immediately...

If you want to express your opinion about Event Horizon's blockstun, you can do so by voting in the poll like everyone else, if you haven't already. Other than that, I don't want to hear more about it. I already wasted a whole day on being angry over this and doing nothing. A whole day that could have given Sakuya all of her normal attacks. My poor Sakuya, can't even throw a knife yet, and I have to deal with bashing videos and nonsense like someone saying you can spam a level 2 super all the time or that the lowest damage level 2 super move on the character is the only thing worth using.

One very last time, stop asking for Event Horizon to be punishable on block. This is the last warning. The next person doing it is going to be reported. Authors have the right to make their characters in the way they see fit. They have the right to listen to requests or say no to them. I'm quite sure repeatedly asking for something after you have already been told "no" multiple times is against at least some forum rules.

If you want to provide feedback on the remaining 18 characters, feel free to do so. I'll most likely say "thank you" for it if you find actual problems, as usual. But posting bashing videos about my design choices and pushing for changes on things that do not hinder the playability of the character after I already said no multiple times are not welcome here. I consider those offensive/disruptive acts.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 13, 2013, 08:22:28 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
POTINFINIDIVINEMORPHMANSANAE63 said, August 13, 2013, 07:38:05 pm
let's say you have a moveset with diverse characteristics, then you add this one super attack of the exact same qualities of unpunishability that is fullscreen. Every other attack has their advantages and disadvantages so far, save for this one, this one stays strong, this one will always get you safe no matter what. Now tell me, which super would you always pick over the other?
This is why Event Horizon does ~220 damage while other level 2 supers do damage in the 270-330 range. The others still have their advantages over this one (they do way more damage) and are worth choosing.
Saying "This one stays strong" for a move that does the least damage from all attacks of equivalent level is just wrong. It ignores the most important part of the game. You don't play this game to stay safe. You play this game to defeat the opponent. When using a move, especially a super move, you do it because you expect to hit with it. If you expect to fail, you don't use the move. Even if it's safe.

Valid reasons that might make players use this move are
-Startup invinciblity lets me use this when the opponent is attacking to land a hit
-14 startup frames means it's fast enough to hit while they are still in cooldown animation from firing that projectile, and I won't get hit by it
-The opponent has less than 220 health so I don't need to take additional risks for using a higher damage move right now.
-I can avoid getting hit by the level 5 unblockable super from the opponent because of invincibility even if I won't damage them because they are also invincible

These are not valid reasons :
-It's safe on block. I suck at this game and it'll be blocked anyway, so I rather use this instead of other supers, at least I won't get hit. (not valid because not using any super move in the first place is even safer. Also not valid because if you think you will be unable to land your super moves most of the time then reduce the difficulty or don't play the game.)
-It gives me 5 frame advantage on block. (5 frame advantage is not worth 2000 power. )
-It does 11 blocked damage. (use a light punch instead, you'll like the results more and it's free...)

How good this move is isn't decided by the frame advantage on block. Quick startup? Awesome. Fullscreen? Nice. Invincibility? Cool. Safe on block? Who cares, people want to hit. Low damage? Better use another card that does good damage instead and only use this only in situations when the invincibility/speed is absolutely necessary.

Yes, it's a good move. Good enough to never use anything else? Definitely not. I used Twilight Spark much more often...
Have you tried Flare Star yet? Sure, it's not safe, extremely unsafe in fact, but if you figure out how to hit with it, it does twice as much damage, and it can be done.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 13, 2013, 07:34:07 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
C.A.N said, August 13, 2013, 07:29:58 pm
Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 07:22:20 pm
POTINFINIDIVINEMORPHMANSANAE63 said, August 13, 2013, 07:08:26 pm
you could just spam that move whenever you have the chance, since nothing bad is gonna happen to p1.
Spam. A 2000 power cost move. On a character with a powermax of 3000. 
Umm...
Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 07:01:04 pm
At least read the damn thing.
Your words, not mine.
I don't think you can call having 2000 power once or at most twice a round and spending it on one super move "spamming it". Even if you add "whenever you have the chance".
Or do you imply there is a bug that allows you to gain 2000 power so quickly that you can effectively spam the move?
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 13, 2013, 07:22:20 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
POTINFINIDIVINEMORPHMANSANAE63 said, August 13, 2013, 07:08:26 pm
Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 07:01:04 pm
And how is that relevant to this? Event Horizon does 11 damage on block for 2000 power. How is that rewarding? Lack of punishment does not equal reward.

+ F. Adv On Block is rewarding enough for p1 to just be able to do the attack and get away with it all the time, you could just spam that move whenever you have the chance, since nothing bad is gonna happen to p1.
:o
Spam. A 2000 power cost move. On a character with a powermax of 3000. 
It's totally rewarding to have nothing happen at all to p1 after he paid 2000 power for that nothing. Best deal of the century. I will always spend my powerbar that way from now on whenever I want to gain an advantage. I was an idiot to spend it on hitting the opponent or healing moves so far, when I could have gotten +5 frame advantage by making them block it instead!

Seriously, stop it already. I'm running out of facepalms here.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 13, 2013, 07:01:04 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
C.A.N said, August 13, 2013, 06:46:15 pm
Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 09:40:43 am
Quote
If you throw a hail mary powerful super at random, you will be punished with pitiful or even no damage should your random super get blocked or fail to connect.
That's exactly what happens on Event Horizon.
:stare: No, you're leaving her safe because the move is plus frames on block. It seems we skipped a page in the script or something.
"Punished by doing pitiful or no damage". Event Horizon does 11 damage on block. At least read the damn thing. He wasn't talking about frames there.

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Even your precious Touhou fighter that you love so much got that right. Missed that 5 card spellcard attack? Well, you just wasted 5 cards for nothing, good job.
Same thing for Event Horizon. You wasted 2000 power for nothing. (Yes, 11 chip damage for the whole this is nothing.)

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No, that's how fighting games work. If you were to reward the player for a blocked move then blocking becomes pointless when it's supposed to be an advantage to the opponent.
And how is that relevant to this? Event Horizon does 11 damage on block for 2000 power. How is that rewarding? Lack of punishment does not equal reward.

Can we stop this already?
If you want to actually help, test the remaining 18 characters.
The issue of Event Horizon is up for a poll and so far 5 out 6 six people do not agree with making it punishable on block. No matter how much you try to push it, this is an optional thing. Some supers are punishable on block, others aren't. Deal with it.
    

Re: MUGEN Video thread

 August 13, 2013, 02:05:46 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in MUGEN Video thread (Started by c001357 September 27, 2008, 11:24:14 am
 Board: M.U.G.E.N Discussion
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 13, 2013, 09:40:43 am View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
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You shouldn't be rewarded for burning through your meter carelessly. If you throw a hail mary powerful super at random, you will be punished with pitiful or even no damage should your random super get blocked or fail to connect.
That's exactly what happens on Event Horizon.

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Meter should be used intellegently or when you're absolutely sure it will hit. A player should be rewarded for using it wisely and punished for using it incorrectly.

That's your concept.
Mine is that the meter is a feature to reward players for staying in the game and hitting the opponent, and since it already is a reward by itself, moves using it don't need to be always punishable. Safe moves do less damage, riskier moves do more damage.

Anyway, as you are so persistent about this insignificant issue, I have added a poll about it, I'm curious what the players who actually use the move think.

Meanwhile, we already have 5 votes for the Orreries projectile to stay unchanged and only 2 for it to be removed when contacting another projectile.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 12, 2013, 11:51:02 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
Ricepigeon said, August 12, 2013, 10:36:42 pm
Darkflare said, August 11, 2013, 09:29:21 pm
You're also gambling with it.
We are totally going in circles now. I'm not going to make that move punishable on block, period.
Besides, having or not having enough skill to use a super at the correct timing so it doesn't get blocked is not really gambling. Gambling is using Marisa's Fountain of Pandora. Maybe Cirno's The Strongest. Or any moves that actually have a random damage formula. Or moves that are so slow it's completely up to the opponent what happens. Those are gambling. Other moves usually aren't, they are skill based.

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Ryu's hadoukens are 13 startup and 45 recovery in SSF4AE, yet he can do it just fine.
Training can complete a full jump (from ground to ground) in 40 ticks. If we accept that as a standard amount, as his constants were probably taken from kfm, 45 recovery is more than enough to get hit by an aerial attack. Mima's attacks have almost the same frame data as Ryu, 14+46 for a total of 60. It takes the opponent about 30-40 to jump and get to the active frame of an aerial attack.
If this thing works in SSF4AE then characters in there jump about twice slower than KFM/Traning does.

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, and if thats the case the recovery time can always be shorted in the AIR file.
I have to quote myself here.
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-And that I won't change the above two things because it's a really powerful projectile due to its priority.
It makes no sense to change a move when there is an open poll about the very same move that will affect this, anyway.
What you suggest would mean making the projectile slower, reducing the cooldown, reducing the damage, and making the projectile get removed by other projectiles, all in one big package of changes. It's certainly a viable solution, but I wasn't aiming for that, and unless the projectile removal option wins the poll, I can't.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 12, 2013, 09:49:07 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
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And in the event that your opponent guesses correctly and makes the jump, you can always greet them with an anti-air.
Except that you can't, which is what I've been saying up till now. By the time you regain control, the opponent jumped over it and landed, at least in case of training. Might work against characters with long, floaty jumps, but a normal characters will finish jumping or hit you in the face while jumping instead.
I understand what you mean but you don't seem to listen to these facts :
-The "slow" version moves at X=5 which isn't really that slow
-The move has a long cooldown animation so while you might control space a little bit longer, you can't do anything until the opponent already dealt with the projectile and you lost that space control advantage (and in the worst case, is already hitting you)
-And that I won't change the above two things because it's a really powerful projectile due to its priority.

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Low damage, yes, but its still unpunishable as it is.
I think I have mentioned this plenty of times already as well but doing no damage for 2000 power is a pretty harsh punishment by itself. Why is there a need for even more punishment? It's not like a normal or special where you can try it again for free...it's not even a good damage move when it hits...
The whole point of this move is sacrificing potential damage for safety.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 12, 2013, 06:17:32 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
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As CAN said, space control. Look at Ryu/Ken/Akuma's Hadouken, which has the exact same thing happening. All 3 versions deal the same damage, the only variance is in speed. Now if it behaved like Dhalsim or Chun-li's projectiles where the projectile fizzles out after a certain distance then the increased damage would be justifiable.
There are only 10 ticks of difference between the time when the projectile reaches the opponent over a full screen distance. I don't see how that would be of any use. I'm just giving the opponent an extra 10 ticks to react. By the time I regain control, they already landed and the projectile is nowhere on the screen, for both versions, and the position of the opponent is the same, too.
It would need to be a lot slower to actually provide space control. Like half the speed...
By the way, where there are 3 versions, what's the point of using the medium one? For control, use the slow, for trying to hit, use the fast...the medium is bad for both.

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She basically gets locked in the first 2 animation frames of her dash.
I discovered she can cancel out of dashing by holding down, caused by some old code that allowed her to move vertically while dashing. So holding F+D+Z can indeed restart the dash. Will fix this.

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It has relatively quick startup, has complete invincibility during said startup as well as both active AND recovery, is a full screen attack, AND is +17F on block. Something is wrong here.
The low damage reflects those advantages. It's 224 from a level 2, that's very low. Anyway, it's not +17 anymore.

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standing 5a on jumping opponent -> ground throw. Tested on Kung Fu Man.
The throw seems to hit them during their recovery state (5040).
In common1.cns :

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[State 5040, 3]
type = CtrlSet
trigger1 = HitOver
value = 1

[State 5040, 4]
type = StateTypeSet
trigger1 = HitOver
movetype = I
They are not in a hit state anymore so the throw can hit them.
Anyway, this isn't a ground throw, more like a mixture of both. She only has one throw and it can be used at any height. It would be very confusing to have Y=0 count as a ground throw and Y=1 count as Air and act differently when 1 pixel height difference is not visible.

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By properly I mean by they cancel each other out. The projectile still does 4 hits regardless of whether it interacts with another projectile or not.
I think it would look weird if parts of the Orreries Satellite could be removed while the rest still rotates around the center. In that case, I would rather remove the whole thing. Not sure which version people would prefer, so this is going to be a poll question.

Updated version up in the RC folder, and poll is now active.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 12, 2013, 12:42:01 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
C.A.N said, August 12, 2013, 12:29:06 pm
Seravy said, August 12, 2013, 12:27:45 pm
I don't think there would be a reason to use the slow version if it wasn't stronger in damage.
Controlling space for a longer amount of time comes to mind.
It's not really slow enough to be useful for that. The projectiles reach the other side of the screen by the time Mima regains control even for the slow version. As these projectiles have priority over almost every other projectile, I don't want them to be even slower and act as a wall.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 12, 2013, 12:27:45 pm View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
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Orreries Satellite A version does way too much damage for a regular projectile. Also why does the B version deal less damage when the only difference is speed?
Faster is better so it does less damage. The slow version gives more time to the opponent to block/avoid it, but it gives you an extra ~30 damage in exchange. I don't think there would be a reason to use the slow version if it wasn't stronger in damage.

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5b is +1 on hit but -10 on block? Seems like quite a large gap.
Changed to -5 on block.

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For an attack that trips, 2c is only -2 on block
Weird, I have -14 in my frame data table but it really is only -2. Fixed, will be -14 as intended.

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air 5a is -8 on hit and -14 on block and air 5b is -14 on hit and -19 on block?
Seems to depend on her position, I've seen those in the range of +16 to -14 on hit...eww.
a : Will move slightly diagonally forward/down. Removed A Physics so landing won't mess with frame advantages. Removed ability to cancel it into itself.  Will be +5 on hit and -5 on block.
b : Will have no gravity at all and lower cooldown for more consistent frame advantages. Will be 0 on hit and -5 on block.

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spaz out
No idea what this means.

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Meteor Staff B version doesnt quite work as a proper crossup. Opponent can still block it by holding back if Mima is behind them
Looks like the guard end state still counts as guarding. As long as the guard end animation of the opponent is longer than the time between the teleport and the hitdef activation, this will happen. Raised the duration of that animation frame by 4 ticks. This does mean it's now possible to counter it with a fast light attack, however.
Also, while trying to restrict the AI use of this move to higher levels, I discovered the AI was unable to use Meteor Staff at all. No wonder the character felt too easy to defeat. Fixed that, too.

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All versions of Orreries Satellite doesnt interact properly with projectiles, both helper and non-helper types
Not sure what you consider "properly". Right now, they remove other projectiles that hit them. Proper priorities are not available for helper projectiles, they either get removed when hitting something, removed when getting hit, or not removed at all. Orreries Satellite is the latter type because it would look strange to have some of the 4 orbs disappear while the rest is still there.

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All versions of Stellar Missile are +18 on block.
The only thing I could do about that would be removing the projectile early if it's blocked. I guess I'll do that then.

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All versions of Elemental Spark seem too safe on block, with Elec being -2, fire -1, and Ice with +2.
Fixed.

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The way Mima's friction is messes up p2's combos
Tried to fix that by triggering additional friction in the minus states but there is no PHYSICS=S trigger. Ewww....lame, have to use stateno triggers instead.

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Orreries Sun's QCF+a gatling is +13 on hit and +8 on block at close range
Reduced both greatly.

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When done at the proper distance so none of the orbs will whiff, Orreries Solar System is -1 on block.
Not sure what's wrong with that, also the advantage seems to vary a lot based on the distance because the hits are done by moving projectiles. Seen -12 as well as +4. Should it be safe on block at all times? Or unsafe?

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Mima has complete invulnerability at all times during Event Horizon.
Yes, that's an invincibility attack. I think it always has been like that, and I prefer to keep it this way.

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Event Horizon also has +17 on block, which is ridiculously safe for a fullscreen super.
I don't think that's going to make anyone happy after wasting 2000 power on doing 11 chip damage. I'll make it less safe, but I don't think it matters.

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Grand Cross shouldnt have invulnerability during the active frames.
As it uses the same black hole animation as Event Horizon, I would rather keep the invincibility here as well for consistency.

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Oort Cloud also feels like ti has too much hitstun and too easy to keep the opponent locked down.
That's what the attack is for. To keep the opponent in hitstun. Letting the opponent recover would reset the dampener and you could do even more damage than now.

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Mima's ground throw is able to hit airborne opponents, as well as opponents in a fall or hitstate.
It's a flying character, so her throw can hit in air. It can't hit crouching instead. There is a - in the hitflag and no F so it shouldn't be possible to hit on fall or hitstates. No idea how you did that.

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Why does her standing 5c has such massive recoil on the second part of the attack?
I no longer remember but I think the reason was without that you could do a->b->c->a in a loop.

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Earthlight Ray helpers causing float to integer truncation debug
Fixed.

Uploaded updated version to the RC folder.
    

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!

 August 12, 2013, 12:39:05 am View in topic context
 Posted by Seravy  in Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Started by Seravy August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
 Board: Your Releases, 1.0+
Ok, maybe you are right. Maybe it really is a bad idea. I'm getting sleepy (already past midnight) and I don't think it's worth thinking about this any more than this, especially not today, and definitely not until at least one of my characters actually has a move that does equal or more blocked damage. I checked the card that I thought does that at max level but I remembered wrong, it only goes up to 70% blocked damage from 30% at the max level.
Still waiting for feedback on the remaining 19 characters out of the 22 updated, which would be most likely a more productive way to spend  time...and I have a Sakuya to make, too.
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