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Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others! (Read 12284 times)

Started by Seravy, August 07, 2013, 03:11:18 pm
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Seravy

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#41  August 13, 2013, 09:40:43 am
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Quote
You shouldn't be rewarded for burning through your meter carelessly. If you throw a hail mary powerful super at random, you will be punished with pitiful or even no damage should your random super get blocked or fail to connect.
That's exactly what happens on Event Horizon.

Quote
Meter should be used intellegently or when you're absolutely sure it will hit. A player should be rewarded for using it wisely and punished for using it incorrectly.

That's your concept.
Mine is that the meter is a feature to reward players for staying in the game and hitting the opponent, and since it already is a reward by itself, moves using it don't need to be always punishable. Safe moves do less damage, riskier moves do more damage.

Anyway, as you are so persistent about this insignificant issue, I have added a poll about it, I'm curious what the players who actually use the move think.

Meanwhile, we already have 5 votes for the Orreries projectile to stay unchanged and only 2 for it to be removed when contacting another projectile.
Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 09:51:39 am by Seravy

Sinnesloschen

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#42  August 13, 2013, 06:46:15 pm
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Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 09:40:43 am
Quote
If you throw a hail mary powerful super at random, you will be punished with pitiful or even no damage should your random super get blocked or fail to connect.
That's exactly what happens on Event Horizon.
:stare: No, you're leaving her safe because the move is plus frames on block. It seems we skipped a page in the script or something.
Alpaca-San said, December 27, 2014, 08:50:31 am
Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?

jaede_

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#43  August 13, 2013, 06:48:36 pm
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Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 09:40:43 am
That's your concept.

No, that's how fighting games work. If you were to reward the player for a blocked move then blocking becomes pointless when it's supposed to be an advantage to the opponent. Since it's + frames on block AND does a ton of guard damage you're rewarding p1 instead of p2 for a fair and square block where you should be able to strike her back, that's the concept powerful moves have, if it hits, do as you please; but if you missuse it and time it badly, get ready to get your ass beaten.
Yeaaaah im shootign ducks wiht the paino
Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 06:51:57 pm by POTINFINIDIVINEMORPHMANSANAE63

Darkflare

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#44  August 13, 2013, 06:52:13 pm
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Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 09:40:43 am
That's your concept.

Except it's not mine, but the concept of every (well done) fighting game that uses meter. :flipout:

Even your precious Touhou fighter that you love so much got that right. Missed that 5 card spellcard attack? Well, you just wasted 5 cards for nothing, good job.

Seravy

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#45  August 13, 2013, 07:01:04 pm
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C.A.N said, August 13, 2013, 06:46:15 pm
Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 09:40:43 am
Quote
If you throw a hail mary powerful super at random, you will be punished with pitiful or even no damage should your random super get blocked or fail to connect.
That's exactly what happens on Event Horizon.
:stare: No, you're leaving her safe because the move is plus frames on block. It seems we skipped a page in the script or something.
"Punished by doing pitiful or no damage". Event Horizon does 11 damage on block. At least read the damn thing. He wasn't talking about frames there.

Quote
Even your precious Touhou fighter that you love so much got that right. Missed that 5 card spellcard attack? Well, you just wasted 5 cards for nothing, good job.
Same thing for Event Horizon. You wasted 2000 power for nothing. (Yes, 11 chip damage for the whole this is nothing.)

Quote
No, that's how fighting games work. If you were to reward the player for a blocked move then blocking becomes pointless when it's supposed to be an advantage to the opponent.
And how is that relevant to this? Event Horizon does 11 damage on block for 2000 power. How is that rewarding? Lack of punishment does not equal reward.

Can we stop this already?
If you want to actually help, test the remaining 18 characters.
The issue of Event Horizon is up for a poll and so far 5 out 6 six people do not agree with making it punishable on block. No matter how much you try to push it, this is an optional thing. Some supers are punishable on block, others aren't. Deal with it.

jaede_

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#46  August 13, 2013, 07:08:26 pm
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Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 07:01:04 pm
And how is that relevant to this? Event Horizon does 11 damage on block for 2000 power. How is that rewarding? Lack of punishment does not equal reward.

+ F. Adv On Block is rewarding enough for p1 to just be able to do the attack and get away with it all the time, you could just spam that move whenever you have the chance, since nothing bad is gonna happen to p1.
Yeaaaah im shootign ducks wiht the paino

Seravy

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#47  August 13, 2013, 07:22:20 pm
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POTINFINIDIVINEMORPHMANSANAE63 said, August 13, 2013, 07:08:26 pm
Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 07:01:04 pm
And how is that relevant to this? Event Horizon does 11 damage on block for 2000 power. How is that rewarding? Lack of punishment does not equal reward.

+ F. Adv On Block is rewarding enough for p1 to just be able to do the attack and get away with it all the time, you could just spam that move whenever you have the chance, since nothing bad is gonna happen to p1.
:o
Spam. A 2000 power cost move. On a character with a powermax of 3000. 
It's totally rewarding to have nothing happen at all to p1 after he paid 2000 power for that nothing. Best deal of the century. I will always spend my powerbar that way from now on whenever I want to gain an advantage. I was an idiot to spend it on hitting the opponent or healing moves so far, when I could have gotten +5 frame advantage by making them block it instead!

Seriously, stop it already. I'm running out of facepalms here.

Sinnesloschen

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#48  August 13, 2013, 07:29:58 pm
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Alpaca-San said, December 27, 2014, 08:50:31 am
Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?

Seravy

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#49  August 13, 2013, 07:34:07 pm
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C.A.N said, August 13, 2013, 07:29:58 pm
Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 07:22:20 pm
POTINFINIDIVINEMORPHMANSANAE63 said, August 13, 2013, 07:08:26 pm
you could just spam that move whenever you have the chance, since nothing bad is gonna happen to p1.
Spam. A 2000 power cost move. On a character with a powermax of 3000. 
Umm...
Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 07:01:04 pm
At least read the damn thing.
Your words, not mine.
I don't think you can call having 2000 power once or at most twice a round and spending it on one super move "spamming it". Even if you add "whenever you have the chance".
Or do you imply there is a bug that allows you to gain 2000 power so quickly that you can effectively spam the move?

jaede_

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#50  August 13, 2013, 07:38:05 pm
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let's say you have a moveset with diverse characteristics, then you add this one super attack of the exact same qualities of unpunishability that is fullscreen. Every other attack has their advantages and disadvantages so far, save for this one, this one stays strong, this one will always get you safe no matter what. Now tell me, which super would you always pick over the other?
Yeaaaah im shootign ducks wiht the paino

Seravy

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#51  August 13, 2013, 08:22:28 pm
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POTINFINIDIVINEMORPHMANSANAE63 said, August 13, 2013, 07:38:05 pm
let's say you have a moveset with diverse characteristics, then you add this one super attack of the exact same qualities of unpunishability that is fullscreen. Every other attack has their advantages and disadvantages so far, save for this one, this one stays strong, this one will always get you safe no matter what. Now tell me, which super would you always pick over the other?
This is why Event Horizon does ~220 damage while other level 2 supers do damage in the 270-330 range. The others still have their advantages over this one (they do way more damage) and are worth choosing.
Saying "This one stays strong" for a move that does the least damage from all attacks of equivalent level is just wrong. It ignores the most important part of the game. You don't play this game to stay safe. You play this game to defeat the opponent. When using a move, especially a super move, you do it because you expect to hit with it. If you expect to fail, you don't use the move. Even if it's safe.

Valid reasons that might make players use this move are
-Startup invinciblity lets me use this when the opponent is attacking to land a hit
-14 startup frames means it's fast enough to hit while they are still in cooldown animation from firing that projectile, and I won't get hit by it
-The opponent has less than 220 health so I don't need to take additional risks for using a higher damage move right now.
-I can avoid getting hit by the level 5 unblockable super from the opponent because of invincibility even if I won't damage them because they are also invincible

These are not valid reasons :
-It's safe on block. I suck at this game and it'll be blocked anyway, so I rather use this instead of other supers, at least I won't get hit. (not valid because not using any super move in the first place is even safer. Also not valid because if you think you will be unable to land your super moves most of the time then reduce the difficulty or don't play the game.)
-It gives me 5 frame advantage on block. (5 frame advantage is not worth 2000 power. )
-It does 11 blocked damage. (use a light punch instead, you'll like the results more and it's free...)

How good this move is isn't decided by the frame advantage on block. Quick startup? Awesome. Fullscreen? Nice. Invincibility? Cool. Safe on block? Who cares, people want to hit. Low damage? Better use another card that does good damage instead and only use this only in situations when the invincibility/speed is absolutely necessary.

Yes, it's a good move. Good enough to never use anything else? Definitely not. I used Twilight Spark much more often...
Have you tried Flare Star yet? Sure, it's not safe, extremely unsafe in fact, but if you figure out how to hit with it, it does twice as much damage, and it can be done.

Ricepigeon

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#52  August 13, 2013, 08:31:51 pm
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Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 07:01:04 pm
Same thing for Event Horizon. You wasted 2000 power for nothing. (Yes, 11 chip damage for the whole this is nothing.)
And how is that relevant to this? Event Horizon does 11 damage on block for 2000 power. How is that rewarding? Lack of punishment does not equal reward.

  • Use level 2 super with aforementioned qualities in video
  • Opponent gets hit? Good, rewarded with 220 damage.
  • Opponent blocks? Simply connect with a jab during the 5 frame window at the end to start a 220+ damage combo that you would have otherwise gotten if the opponent had not blocked.

Both situations are rewards in this case. The fact that the super drags p2 toward Mima on block doesn't help prevent the latter situation either, but that by itself isn't necessarily wrong (KOF had it).

EDIT: just for the record, posting something like this, even if its showcasing flaws in a character made over 2 years ago when I had no clue what I was doing, seems to give off the impression that you're talking this thing way too personally, especially that bit at 1:33.
Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 08:44:40 pm by Ricepigeon

Seravy

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#53  August 13, 2013, 09:33:47 pm
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Opponent blocks? Simply connect with a jab during the 5 frame window at the end to start a 220+ damage combo that you would have otherwise gotten if the opponent had not blocked.
The opponent is already blocking. The jab will get blocked. The jab is -3 on block. Too bad, no combo for you and no more advantage. And no, 5 ticks aren't enough to try an overhead. If the opponent blocks low, there is no way you are gonna hit them. When it was +17, yes, that was a bit of a problem. But it's +5 now. You can't even go for a tick throw because Mima's throw doesn't hit low.

Quote
EDIT: just for the record, posting something like this seems to give off the impression that you're talking this thing way too personally, especially that bit at 1:33.
You are not doing that to provide feedback. You already posted the feedback here. I already answered it, too. You and other people pushed for the change a few more times, and I said I won't do it and it's final, and let's stop this and talk about something else. Then you post a video like that. Why?
It's hard not to take your video personal when you label it as "how to code fullscreen attacks tutorial by Seravy". That title is a personal one. Very much so, actually. And it's public. You even posted in the video thread. You intentionally didn't mention the low damage which is balancing the whole move out, despite knowing about it. It gives off the feeling that you are trying to make fun of me, or to make others think I'm a bad creator. This is not the first time it happens, either. You did similar videos about bugs in BETA versions of Kaguya and Marisa. Bugs that were fixed immediately...

If you want to express your opinion about Event Horizon's blockstun, you can do so by voting in the poll like everyone else, if you haven't already. Other than that, I don't want to hear more about it. I already wasted a whole day on being angry over this and doing nothing. A whole day that could have given Sakuya all of her normal attacks. My poor Sakuya, can't even throw a knife yet, and I have to deal with bashing videos and nonsense like someone saying you can spam a level 2 super all the time or that the lowest damage level 2 super move on the character is the only thing worth using.

One very last time, stop asking for Event Horizon to be punishable on block. This is the last warning. The next person doing it is going to be reported. Authors have the right to make their characters in the way they see fit. They have the right to listen to requests or say no to them. I'm quite sure repeatedly asking for something after you have already been told "no" multiple times is against at least some forum rules.

If you want to provide feedback on the remaining 18 characters, feel free to do so. I'll most likely say "thank you" for it if you find actual problems, as usual. But posting bashing videos about my design choices and pushing for changes on things that do not hinder the playability of the character after I already said no multiple times are not welcome here. I consider those offensive/disruptive acts.

Sinnesloschen

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#54  August 13, 2013, 09:42:34 pm
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Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 09:33:47 pm
The next person doing it is going to be reported. Authors have the right to make their characters in the way they see fit.
And everybody has the right to criticize. °3°
Alpaca-San said, December 27, 2014, 08:50:31 am
Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?

Hyogo

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#55  August 13, 2013, 09:57:32 pm
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^ This

Seravy

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#56  August 13, 2013, 10:07:27 pm
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C.A.N said, August 13, 2013, 09:42:34 pm
Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 09:33:47 pm
The next person doing it is going to be reported. Authors have the right to make their characters in the way they see fit.
And everybody has the right to criticize. °3°
Sure.
-My problem isn't that someone doesn't like the guard.slidetime on Event Horizon.
-My problem isn't that someone expresses this opinion here in a critical way.
-My problem isn't that they try to explain why they think it's better in another way.
-My problem is that after I explained why I consider my version better, and stated that it is not going to be changed, they still keep going about it and ignore my opinion altogether.

Criticizing would be something like
"Sorry to see this decision, it would have been better that way."
and stopping there.

What happened instead was

"You should do X,Y and Z!
Does Y and Z. Umm, X is not really necessary, a smaller change is enough to fix that problem.
But you should do X because..
No, I won't do it because...
But you should do X because..
No, stop asking, I already said why not.
But you should do X because..
No, stop asking.
But you should do X because..
No, stop asking.
See, I posted a video telling everyone you are an idiot who doesn't do X even though I said so. Haha.
Gets angry."

That's not criticizing, that's spamming and trolling. Or at least that's the feeling that came across, and I'm not going to read 2 whole pages to see how many times he asked. At least one too many and that one was the video.

Edit : Ok, there were only two posts after I said stop from RicePigeon, the video and the post two hours ago. I guess I'm a bit overreacting as usual. It felt a lot more because he was also pressing for other stuff (the Orreries projectile), and Darkflare also posted once. (although he seems to have got lost somewhere because he said there should be no block damage and there isn't, this move had frame advantage...)
Still, making a video like that for a difference of 10 on guard.slidetime on one move which is a super is not something I can understand or accept. It definitely feels like an offensive act to me and a very excessive way of expressing opinions.
Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 10:23:43 pm by Seravy

jaede_

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#57  August 13, 2013, 11:39:26 pm
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Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 10:07:27 pm
-My problem is that after I explained why I consider my version better, and stated that it is not going to be changed, they still keep going about it and ignore my opinion altogether.

Problem here is that you're also ignoring or disregarding everyone else's partially or completely, and from people who have a much better understanding at how fighters work mind you. You've quite a lot of knowledge of how MUGEN and codes work, but there's this flaw you've gotten that many people around have, design. Not everyone knows how to design a character well. Wouldn't it be advisable to follow someone else's command when they've brought good points to you for something that you're not good at?

Granted, Rice did a "colorful" video on you, but you mostly brought that on yourself for a stubborn and childish attitude, and he did discuss some points that you should have changed. For the record it wasn't even THAT personal, he didn't call you a retard or anything nor mentally disabled nor anything. And another thing, good points are often not brought up in a lot of character because the relevant part is making things better, mentioning something for the sake of COOL+1 doesn't really add up anything because there's nothing to fix there.

Also, people mostly seem to tell you to fix your stuff because you seem to have potential, as I said early, you have skills to do something good. I don't think a poll would cut the whole super thing because people wouldn't tell you the arguments behind it, so you'd end up doing stuff blindly instead of really understanding why you shouldn't do such and such.

Seravy said, August 13, 2013, 10:07:27 pm
Still, making a video like that for a difference of 10 on guard.slidetime on one move which is a super is not something I can understand or accept. It definitely feels like an offensive act to me and a very excessive way of expressing opinions.

I'm sorry, but do you know what an offensive act and excessive way of expressing opinions is? If we acted like such we'd be verbally and profanely acting up against you and send up propaganda like "SERAVY MUST DIE". Which isn't happenning. Specially since you seemed to have no problem with that one time with the Marisa clones :/
Yeaaaah im shootign ducks wiht the paino

Seravy

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#58  August 14, 2013, 12:34:34 am
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I have heard plenty of reasonable arguments about why it should be punishable on block, and I made plenty of reasonable arguments about why it can remain safe on block.
There is no "should be", "correct way", or "superior knowledge" in this matter. Both are valid, acceptable choices. Neither makes the character worse or better. Some people prefer it this way, some people prefer it that way.
I don't see the point in hearing any more of that.

While they might understand fighters better than me, here is one thing they don't understand.
I don't like how those fighters work. Mugen is the only fighting game I play. There is a reason for that. I tried other games and they were not fun. They were frustrating. It was a torture to play them in a few cases. So while I'm willing to accept advice about fighting games where the reasoning behind them coincides with my primary goal (making a fun game), I will never aim to make everything the same way because I know I wouldn't like the result. I aim to make different, more fun characters than that. So fighting game knowledge isn't always relevant.
Their concept is to punish mistakes harshly in all cases with no exception as much as possible. Punishing mistakes is ok, and necessary, but you have to use that concept with moderation, just like everything else. If you overdo it, people will get frustrated by everything they try backfiring on them, and end up playing a different game. I know I would.

Quote
Problem here is that you're also ignoring or disregarding everyone else's partially or completely, and from people who have a much better understanding at how fighters work mind you.
Okay. I got a list of about 50 problems as feedback. I fixed about 40 of those. I explained why it's like that for the remaining 10. Three of those started long discussions, the rest were probably accepted. For one, I eventually went along with the advice (reduced block damage on Royal Flush) and looking back it seems like a good decision. One more is on hold because it depends on another open issue (Orreries Sun projectile's damage and velocity depending on its priority), currently it's 8 out of 12 for keeping the projectile destroy others while moving forward unharmed. So in this case, the majority of people don't want RicePigeon's suggestion. As I'm neutral on this matter (the high priority projectiles are a bit annoying when facing Mima, but it's a useful attack when I play her), I will go with whichever option gets the majority. And finally, there was one remaining issue, the Event Horizon. RicePigeon said it's +17 on block and it's too much. He was right, I reduced it to +5. I could even reduce it to +0, it wouldn't really matter and wouldn't make any difference. But that's as low as it can go. It won't be punishable on block.
Saying I'm not willing to listen when I actually implemented 95% of what I was told is unfair.

Quote
and send up propaganda like "SERAVY MUST DIE"
I have seen comments like that under similar hate videos when I was new to this, so I'm a lot more sensitive to these videos than other people. Specifically, one guy wanted to cut my hands off. Just because no such comment was posted yet, doesn't mean it wont' happen again. The video is clearly meant to instigate people into thinking that I'm doing things wrong.

But you know what?
People love my characters. People vote for keeping the move safe on block.
Despite that I have to read
"I fail to see how it's harassment if RicePigeon is pointing out the flaws in the move. It tells him (and many others) that you don't actually have a clue what you're doing."
"-completely disregarding people who know more than you. Big check"
"Even characters with absolutely no knowledge of frame advantage get this better than Seravy did. >_<"

Get off your damn high horses people. You aren't always automatically right just because you think you are.

Sinnesloschen

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#59  August 14, 2013, 12:45:08 am
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Seravy said, August 14, 2013, 12:34:34 am
I have to read
Not really. 'Twas your choice to look in the comments.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Alpaca-San said, December 27, 2014, 08:50:31 am
Is finding MUGEN to be more enjoyable to play when you're not wearing clothes an underrated opinion?

Darkflare

Re: Marisa Kirisame released, major update to all Touhou characters and some others!
#60  August 14, 2013, 12:58:31 am
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