Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: GOH on March 09, 2013, 07:01:08 pm
What a disgusting pile of console games.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 09, 2013, 07:05:51 pm
I would just like to say, before this topic inevitably spirals out of control, that one is a feminist, by definition, if one believes men and women should be equal.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bea on March 09, 2013, 07:22:55 pm
What Jmorph said.
This has the potential to be good, but I am a bit worried about the quality of the material we will be presented as Anita Sarkeesi tends to fall more towards "feminazi" than feminist.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 09, 2013, 07:25:40 pm
The video is actually interesting... At first, until you realize that she's never talking about stuff like the Final Fantasy series where you'll always find a girl as a major, active character, she sticks to the Mario and Zelda games just to get to her point (which, by the end, is really nauseous). When she gets to Zelda she even complains that she's not the star of "her own game" - even though it never was "her game". Even on the "sequel hook" for the part 2 video, she says she'll talk about more modern games.... that use the tropes. Not the ones that don't use it. You know, we could, someday, see game creators maybe start considering putting females in the lead role where they're equal to guys ! We could call these games Metroid or Tomb Raider or whatever we like. I do understand that this video is specifically about this trope in games, but I could just as well make a video about Nazi propaganda in games and talk only about games that do it, and "letting viewers make up their own conclusion" about the entire video game industry just based on that. It's obvious that in this new study she's definitely not going to talk about the general role of girls in games, she's going to talk about the games that put them in a bad light.
lol || V
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Duos on March 09, 2013, 07:30:23 pm
I am a masculist, and as such I am opposed to the portrayal of men as constantly being machismo badasses in games like God of War, Devil May Cry, Halo and Mortal Kombat. Somebody give me 6000 dollars to spend on video games.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Nomechy on March 09, 2013, 07:41:17 pm
Im all for better representation of of women in video games, but Anita is just bad. This is not a way to go about it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on March 09, 2013, 08:10:51 pm
She pisses off MRA idiots and /v/ so she's good in my book.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Alpaca-San on March 09, 2013, 08:12:37 pm
I think that even Anita herself knows that she's full of shit and is just grabbing cash from the many, many impressionable people of the internet. Man she'd make a good gold digger.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 09, 2013, 09:20:35 pm
I was really hoping I wouldn't have to see this waste of space here.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 01:17:54 am
The video is actually interesting... At first, until you realize that she's never talking about stuff like the Final Fantasy series where you'll always find a girl as a major, active character, she sticks to the Mario and Zelda games just to get to her point (which, by the end, is really nauseous). When she gets to Zelda she even complains that she's not the star of "her own game" - even though it never was "her game".
The very reason she doesn't mention Final Fantasy is the reason you mentioned; this specific episode is all about damsels in distress, and that's something the FF series has generally lacked. Mario and Zelda, on the other hand, feature it in spades, and they're best, most popular examples to focus on.
That said, I felt like she definitely gave the short shift to Zelda's increased role in the latter games of the series; especially in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. In the former, she is absolutely vital in defeating Gannondorf, and in the latter, she spends most of the game un-kidnapped, threatened, or incapacitated, and not because of Link, but because she is under the protection of Impa, another female.
I am a masculist, and as such I am opposed to the portrayal of men as constantly being machismo badasses in games like God of War, Devil May Cry, Halo and Mortal Kombat. Somebody give me 6000 dollars to spend on video games.
That's an absolutely terrible comparison.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 10, 2013, 01:46:28 am
The video is actually interesting... At first, until you realize that she's never talking about stuff like the Final Fantasy series where you'll always find a girl as a major, active character, she sticks to the Mario and Zelda games just to get to her point (which, by the end, is really nauseous). When she gets to Zelda she even complains that she's not the star of "her own game" - even though it never was "her game".
The very reason she doesn't mention Final Fantasy is the reason you mentioned; this specific episode is all about damsels in distress, and that's something the FF series has generally lacked. Mario and Zelda, on the other hand, feature it in spades, and they're best, most popular examples to focus on.
That said, I felt like she definitely gave the short shift to Zelda's increased role in the latter games of the series; especially in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. In the former, she is absolutely vital in defeating Gannondorf, and in the latter, she spends most of the game un-kidnapped, threatened, or incapacitated, and not because of Link, but because she is under the protection of Impa, another female.
I do understand that this video is specifically about this trope in games, but I could just as well make a video about Nazi propaganda in games and talk only about games that do it, and "letting viewers make up their own conclusion" about the entire video game industry just based on that.
In other words I'm saying this series is completely useless for this exact premise. It's flawed, it's useless. It's focusing on one specific point, and it's removing all scale for comparison of how relevant that point is to the entire game industry. You could make a study about slavery, and focus only on games with actual slavery or racism in it, ignoring all the games that don't have slavery but still use black people as central characters. This is exactly what it is.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 02:29:14 am
In other words I'm saying this series is completely useless for this exact premise. It's flawed, it's useless. It's focusing on one specific point, and it's removing all scale for comparison of how relevant that point is to the entire game industry.
I like this though. It is a pretty narrow and flawed premise, but even so, it's a valid one, I think. It's nice for someone to be talking about this kind of stuff for once, if if the actual execution leaves much to be desired.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 10, 2013, 02:35:26 am
Because phrasing is so much more important than getting the point and you'd rather act as if I said the entire opposite of what I actually said. It makes it that much easier for you to discard opposing opinions.
I like this though. It is a pretty narrow and flawed premise, but even so, it's a valid one, I think. It's nice for someone to be talking about this kind of stuff for once, if if the actual execution leaves much to be desired.
I actually agree with this (to an extent), and that's exactly why I said the part that you did quote : it makes a pretty good point at the beginning, only it becomes nauseating somewhere in the middle (which is the extent in question). She had a point at first, but she hammers it and she drives it completely off by picking the wrong examples and leaving half of it out (the evolution of Zelda's role as you said in your previous post).
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 02:42:38 am
The thing about this that irks me the most is that this detestable woman has completely ruined the legitimacy of this entire thing.
There may well be problems with these kinds of stereotypes! I don't know, I haven't studied them. What I do know is that anyone who finds problems with her findings/methodology/whatever will be tarred and feathered and 'you're just saying that because you're against women' and all of that fucking ridiculous crap. Even if someone were to do this properly, it won't matter now.
This is why agenda-driven sensationalistic research should never exist.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 03:05:23 am
Because phrasing is so much more important than getting the point and you'd rather act as if I said the entire opposite of what I actually said. It makes it that much easier for you to discard opposing opinions.
I was just joking. :|
I just think that it's not a big deal if she doesn't stray from the topic, because it's such a huge concept.
There may well be problems with these kinds of stereotypes! I don't know, I haven't studied them.
Stereotypes are by definition harmful. And one doesn't really need to study anything to see that the game industry doesn't exactly have a sterling record with women (in recent years there has been the rape caves in Duke Nukem Forever, and the PR fiasco of Tomb Raider)
What I do know is that anyone who finds problems with her findings/methodology/whatever will be tarred and feathered and 'you're just saying that because you're against women' and all of that fucking ridiculous crap. Even if someone were to do this properly, it won't matter now.
This is why agenda-driven sensationalistic research should never exist.
Rational people will not tar and feather people who disagree with her findings and stuff. Unless of course they're being crazy misogynists, but that's not really an issue in most cases.
And how the heck is examining the way games use female characters "agenda-driven"?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 10, 2013, 03:08:52 am
Of course she has an agenda -- that's the point. :S
I'm worried that she was just seeking to exploit thousands of dollars from people, but I haven't done much research on her.
The video was accurate.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: c001357 on March 10, 2013, 03:12:02 am
Of course she has an agenda -- that's the point. :S
"Agenda-driven" means something different from simply having an agenda (which everyone has because humanity). It's usually used as a buzzword to dismiss viewpoints that one disagrees with (though not always in the form of "agenda-driven", it might be just agenda on it's own, like "the gay agenda" or what have you)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Cazaki on March 10, 2013, 03:16:09 am
For me I dont really care too much for damsels in distress as much as the over sexualization of fictional characters. Often I feel pervy or uncomfortable playing a few games/watchin anime where it applies. It doesnt add anything to it, i dont want to catch a shameful boner while playing games/watching anime, thats what porn/hentai is for, damnit.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 03:21:02 am
I'll grant you I don't have the best source for this, but friends of mine keep bitching about her taking money and ripping people off and producing nothing of value with it and I am so beyond tired of hearing about it.
Stereotypes are by definition harmful. And one doesn't really need to study anything to see that the game industry doesn't exactly have a sterling record with women (in recent years there has been the rape caves in Duke Nukem Forever, and the PR fiasco of Tomb Raider)
I disagree. Stereotypes tend to exist for reasons. It's only a problem when people tend to assume that all people are stereotypical. The rape caves in Duke Nukem didn't exist to be degrading to women, they existed to poke fun at an entire genre of alien movies. Satirizing something degrading with more degradation isn't really degrading in and of itself, if you see what I'm saying. As for Tomb Raider, it's my understanding that it was a problem with the way the game was marketed, not a problem with the game's content, so, so what?
Rational people will not tar and feather people who disagree with her findings and stuff. Unless of course they're being crazy misogynists, but that's not really an issue in most cases.
And how the heck is examining the way games use female characters "agenda-driven"?
How many rational people have you met? o_O
Examining them isn't. Examining them with predetermined conclusions in mind, the way she is, is.
Quote
"Agenda-driven" means something different from simply having an agenda (which everyone has because humanity). It's usually used as a buzzword to dismiss viewpoints that one disagrees with (though not always in the form of "agenda-driven", it might be just agenda on it's own, like "the gay agenda" or what have you)
Uh, no. 'Agenda-driven' is doing experiments while having a vested interest in the outcome being a particular way. That is not how science works. I am not dismissing viewpoints, I am dismissing any notion of what she's doing being at all scientific or unbiased. She's, at best, making feminist propaganda, and that saddens me immensely.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 10, 2013, 03:22:34 am
i don't think this video by itself is very useful, but if her future videos cover other roles of women in videogames then it's not really a bad thing. if by the end of the series she leaves out obvious topics and examples then she's dumb and a bad researcher.
also the people that said she should be murdered or raped are human scum and deserve death (surprisingly they're mostly reddit and 4chan regulars lol)
also i found this image (http://i.imgur.com/8WabanK.png) and i don't know what point it is trying to get across. were people expecting her to blow the 160k on having michael bay give her amazing explosions in the background or some shit. it's got a meme face too. destroy the internet
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 03:24:56 am
This is why I'm angry, right from the second link in the OP:
Quote
Sarkeesian sought $6,000 on Kickstarter to produce slicker versions of her earlier, DIY series, and she was smeared by vile, angry gamer-dudes who created games where you could beat the crap out of her for the sin of identifying as a feminist and daring to question the portrayal of gender in games.
No, you absolute fucking--No. For the 'sin' of being the kind of feminist that is only interested in women and not gender equality, and for skewing the shit out of her results to prove her points.
But I can't say that. Because I'm a man. =/
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 10, 2013, 03:31:39 am
i don't think any of that warrants making games about her death tho
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 03:35:25 am
You're right, I was literally just rereading this and realizing what I defended (I don't think that's anywhere near as severe as an actual death threat, but it's still all sorts of ridiculous and horrible). I was just trying to point out what happens whenever anyone criticizes her now. She's the hero who DARED to question gender in games. She can't possibly have her head up her ass, it's just ANGRY MEN.
But yeah that would have worked much better without the death game part, whoops ._.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 03:39:00 am
I'll grant you I don't have the best source for this, but friends of mine keep bitching about her taking money and ripping people off and producing nothing of value with it and I am so beyond tired of hearing about it.
As for Tomb Raider, it's my understanding that it was a problem with the way the game was marketed, not a problem with the game's content, so, so what?
Yes, the marketing was what I'm referring to. That's why I said PR. But that it was the marketing doesn't mean it doesn't matter; that whole debacle was emblematic of what the industry thinks about women.
Uh, no. 'Agenda-driven' is doing experiments while having a vested interest in the outcome being a particular way. That is not how science works. I am not dismissing viewpoints, I am dismissing any notion of what she's doing being at all scientific or unbiased. She's, at best, making feminist propaganda, and that saddens me immensely.
When has she said this was a scientific study? How is making some videos exploring the way games treat women characters an experiment? It's not a study nor is it propaganda, it's a video about one woman's thoughts on a complicated subject.
No, you absolute fucking--No. For the 'sin' of being the kind of feminist that is only interested in women and not gender equality, and for skewing the shit out of her results to prove her points.
But I can't say that. Because I'm a man. =/
You're being ridiculous. :|
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 03:50:53 am
Yes, the marketing was what I'm referring to. That's why I said PR. But that it was the marketing doesn't mean it doesn't matter; that whole debacle was emblematic of what the industry thinks about women.
Really. You know the mindset of an entire industry, because of what a PR firm did on a game written by a woman, and apparently very good about this shit by all accounts? BULLSHIT. You're fitting the facts to your own pre-defined conclusion.
The video is actually interesting... At first, until you realize that she's never talking about stuff like the Final Fantasy series where you'll always find a girl as a major, active character, she sticks to the Mario and Zelda games just to get to her point (which, by the end, is really nauseous). When she gets to Zelda she even complains that she's not the star of "her own game" - even though it never was "her game". Even on the "sequel hook" for the part 2 video, she says she'll talk about more modern games.... that use the tropes. Not the ones that don't use it. You know, we could, someday, see game creators maybe start considering putting females in the lead role where they're equal to guys ! We could call these games Metroid or Tomb Raider or whatever we like.
I think that even Anita herself knows that she's full of shit and is just grabbing cash from the many, many impressionable people of the internet. Man she'd make a good gold digger.
In other words I'm saying this series is completely useless for this exact premise. It's flawed, it's useless. It's focusing on one specific point, and it's removing all scale for comparison of how relevant that point is to the entire game industry. You could make a study about slavery, and focus only on games with actual slavery or racism in it, ignoring all the games that don't have slavery but still use black people as central characters. This is exactly what it is.
i don't think this video by itself is very useful, but if her future videos cover other roles of women in videogames then it's not really a bad thing. if by the end of the series she leaves out obvious topics and examples then she's dumb and a bad researcher.
When has she said this was a scientific study? How is making some videos exploring the way games treat women characters an experiment? It's not a study nor is it propaganda, it's a video about one woman's thoughts on a complicated subject.
The entire thing was couched in terms of research funding and legitimacy, not propaganda. It was 'I'm going to buy a bunch of games and examine them to figure out shit about gender in games', not 'I'm going to buy a bunch of games, ignore half of them, and edit together a video that proves my point'.
EDIT: Also completely missed Cazaki's post on the bottom of page 1, agree completely with it, and had a discussion about it on another mugen site earlier this week. Oversexualization is bad, I want stories and good gameplay not titties plz.
With some exceptions I guess. GANTZ would not have worked without the gratuitous fucking.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 03:54:06 am
this could have been a fun thing to do, exploration of the genre is always fun. I do however feel they are going at it backasswards.
Videogames are usually a reflection of the movie culture at the time, in the eighties you would get movies where the girl was kidnapped at the beginning, pretty much every stereotypical eighties movie, and so the games followed suit. By exploring the "trope" but not the culture where it was inserted they are being disingenuous and purposedly only focusing on what benefits their point "Oh no EXPLORATION" . The videogame culture is actually on the forefront of the gender equalization, and has always been. For every duke nuken and mario you had Jill of the jungle, Tyris Flare, Athena, chun li and even the common example, Samus, The woman as a protagonist was always there from the start, and that there were women used as damsels in distress is nothing more representing of the videogame culture as it is a representation of the movies of the era. She jumped wildly in eras to prove her point, while ignoring anything that went against it, like the monkey island games, where the "damsel" in distress ends up saving you most of the times. Her main examples were Zelda, Mario and Star fox?! What the heck? What about Donkey kong Junior where the damsel in distress is DONKEY kong? You play as someone set to save donkey FROM mario.
Why does Pauline and even the game remake get mentioned, but this is ignored?
This might be interesting if the next episodes arent clearly biased but this one wasnt that good. Special mention goes to Marian in Double Dragon Neon, the remake of the old game which she cricitized for having Marian kidnapped again( what were they expecting of a remake? ) while ignoring the characterization that wayforward added to be able to keep the original game and themes while giving something else
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
( In neon Marian turns out to have some hidden powers, sending Billy and Jimmy to the end of time in robot bodies to face the boss, its heavily implied she is way stronger than both of them and she delivers the killing blow )
. But this gets disregarded and instead is presented as an example of "damsel in distress on a recent game". Its sneaky and biased when that happens.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 04:03:25 am
They're fucking rape caves. It's unbelievable that people thought it was a good idea, and other people approved it, all the way down the line. It's absolutely fucking bonkers that it exists in a mainstream game. It's the stuff of creepy internet pervert's nightmares.
Really. You know the mindset of an entire industry, because of what a PR firm did on a game written by a woman, and apparently very good about this shit by all accounts? BULLSHIT. You're fitting the facts to your own pre-defined conclusion.
Again, I'm not talking about the game. I'm talking about what the PR reps were saying. The game itself is actually pretty irrelevant to the discussion. And my conclusion is simply that "wow that's pretty fucked up that the PR reps are suggesting that men can't sympathize with a female character without wanting to protect them; that men can't simply play as a female character and instead have to be coerced into being their guardian, holy fuck balls what is this shit."
No? The one video that has been released focuses on a very narrow area, and future ones will likely expand on other areas. She's not being any more biased than anyone else who makes videos like this.
It was 'I'm going to buy a bunch of games and examine them to figure out shit about gender in games', not 'I'm going to buy a bunch of games, ignore half of them, and edit together a video that proves my point'.
Unless she talks about literally everything relating to women in games (in 20 minutes, mind), then there is gonna be stuff left out. Going by the first video, she will probably continue to explore these subjects but she will of course not be able to cover everything. But she doesn't have to, and she is under no obligation to do so. Posted: March 10, 2013, 04:05:59 am
Her main examples were Zelda, Mario and Star fox?! What the heck?
I don't see what's so weird about focusing on the two biggest franchises with damsels in them. Star Fox was more about the sad story of how a cool new game was retrofitted into a Star Fox game and reduced the hero into an object.
but she should still have covered more stuff!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 04:08:59 am
They're fucking rape caves. It's unbelievable that people thought it was a good idea, and other people approved it, all the way down the line. It's absolutely fucking bonkers that it exists in a mainstream game. It's the stuff of creepy internet pervert's nightmares.
This is seriously the first time I have heard of anyone having a problem with it. Of course it was disgusting and horrible and horrible-to-women. That was the point. The caves had boobs, for fuck's sake! You can't be thinking they meant that seriously!
Again, I'm not talking about the game. I'm talking about what the PR reps were saying. The game itself is actually pretty irrelevant to the discussion. And my conclusion is simply that "wow that's pretty fucked up that the PR reps are suggesting that men can't sympathize with a female character without wanting to protect them; that men can't simply play as a female character and instead have to be coerced into being their guardian, holy fuck balls what is this shit."
PR reps
entire gaming industry
SEE THE DIFFERENCE?
Your argument is invalid until you have actual misogynistic game developers. Marketing being bullshit is marketing being bullshit, not gaming being bullshit. Everyone knows marketing for EVERYTHING is bullshit.
No? The one video that has been released focuses on a very narrow area, and future ones will likely expand on other areas. She's not being any more biased than anyone else who makes videos like this.
She sure seems to be to a whole lot of people and has through this entire process. If she ends up proving me wrong, I'd be very, very happy about that. But she won't.
Unless she talks about literally everything relating to women in games (in 20 minutes, mind), then there is gonna be stuff left out. Going by the first video, she will probably continue to explore these subjects but she will of course not be able to cover everything. But she doesn't have to, and she is under no obligation to do so.
She is under an obligation to be fair and ethical. Everyone is. Especially given that she took people's money.
EDIT: Also you didn't comment on the cats. :|
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 04:15:43 am
Of course it was disgusting and horrible and horrible-to-women. That was the point. The caves had boobs, for fuck's sake! You can't be thinking they meant that seriously!
No one thinks they meant it seriously. But it doesn't really matter if they meant it to be serious or not: the end result is one that is profoundly disturbing and fucked up. You can have terrible things happen to women, but when you have women in rape caves being violently killed by their rape babies, there is a big fucking problem.
I didn't say that PR reps are the entire gaming industry. I said their marketing was emblematic of the problems the entire industry has with women. It doesn't matter if "everyone knows marketing is bullshit". That's no fucking excuse to their insane regressive shit.
She is under an obligation to be fair and ethical. Everyone is. Especially given that she took people's money.
And she is being fair and ethical. She's focusing on things that she's interested in. Things which she told people straight up that she would focus on. There's no scam going on here.
I don't see what's so weird about focusing on the two biggest franchises with damsels in them. Star Fox was more about the sad story of how a cool new game was retrofitted into a Star Fox game and reduced the hero into an object.
but she should still have covered more stuff!
That was my point. she went for the really fucking obvious targets.
Those are series where the damsel in distress bit is by now a staple and as such can be pretty much sure to have something like that going on. It would be like covering a resident evil game and be critical of it for having zombies, or covering a disney princess fairy tale movie and be critical of all the princesses going on.
But did she cover the peach game where mario gets kidnapped? No, if she did she would probably have complained about peach four powers being tied to emotions because that means peach is a silly girl. She didnt even cover the Mario rpg games where peach is part of your party. She was even critical of women never trying to escape and missed the Paper Marios where peach is playable after every mario mission, where she is escaping the castle and helping mario from afar.
She went for the really obvious picks, (and star fox , since it was such an obvious example of heroine turned into fodder). And then she tried to cobble some kind of example out of that with the mario dressed peach and link dressed zelda. So tell me, why did she ignore all of those and instead only focused on whatever proved her trope? Why not going for the outliers? Why not even showing the evolution that games using those tropes have taken over the years?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 04:22:57 am
Those are series where the damsel in distress bit is by now a staple and as such can be pretty much sure to have something like that going on. It would be like covering a resident evil game and be critical of it for having zombies
There's a difference between zombies and potentially regressive stereotypes. And Nintendo, for one, hasn't been content with the standard damsel role, and has tried to make the damsels have more influence on the story. And that's good.
But did she cover the peach game where mario gets kidnapped? No, if she did she would probably have complained about peach four powers being tied to emotions because that means peach is a silly girl.
She made a quick mention of it and said she would get back to it, but never did. Maybe that part was kidnapped by Bowser! :haw:
So tell me, why did she ignore all of those and instead only focused on whatever proved her trope? Why not going for the outliers? Why not even showing the evolution that games using those tropes have taken over the years?
I don't know, I'm not her. I hope that she will talk about the outliers in the next episode, with this one setting up the standards, but who knows.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 04:26:56 am
No one thinks they meant it seriously. But it doesn't really matter if they meant it to be serious or not: the end result is one that is profoundly disturbing and fucked up. You have terrible things happen to women, but when you have women in rape caves being violently killed by their rape babies, there is a big fucking problem.
...So? Are we supposed to shy away from doing bad things to everyone in fiction because it's bad or might offend someone? Duke has always ripped off movies. This was satire on Alien and everything it spawned and how ridiculous it was. It wasn't torture porn. I really don't see why anyone would care unless they missed the point and took it at face value.
This reminds me of the time I got banned from an IRC channel for making insane statements about Nazis and the holocaust to show a person who meant his less insane but still pretty insane statements seriously how absolutely ridiculously unacceptably horrendous they were. o_O
It was an exaggeration of the sort of thing that has gone on in bad sci-fi movies for years! Because they're ridiculous! And this is how we show people how ridiculous things are, by humorously exaggerating their worst traits!
I didn't say that PR reps are the entire gaming industry. I said their marketing was emblematic of the problems the entire industry has with women. It doesn't matter if "everyone knows marketing is bullshit". That's no fucking excuse to their insane regressive shit.
You're right. The marketing fiasco was unacceptable. Blaming problems with the marketing industry on the gaming industry is equally unacceptable.
And she is being fair and ethical. She's focusing on things that she's interested in. Things which she told people straight up that she would focus on. There's no scam going on here.
Oh, I'm sorry, I said... and you thought... right. I don't think she set out to rip anyone off. I think some people might feel ripped off, but that's not the same thing. All I meant to say was that I hear people bitching about her ripping people off a lot and it gets old real quick--I don't think they're right, they're just loud. Sorry for the confusion.
But did she cover the peach game where mario gets kidnapped? No, if she did she would probably have complained about peach four powers being tied to emotions because that means peach is a silly girl. She didnt even cover the Mario rpg games where peach is part of your party. She was even critical of women never trying to escape and missed the Paper Marios where peach is playable after every mario mission, where she is escaping the castle and helping mario from afar.
While I agree with everything else you said, peach being a silly girl in that game is worth complaining about imo.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 04:34:15 am
...So? Are we supposed to shy away from doing bad things to everyone in fiction because it's bad or might offend someone?
Of course not. But there is a fairly well defined line between bad things happening to people and rape caves.
I mean, I don't think it's impossible to do something like what DNF was trying to do, Alien(s) pulled off something similar as horror. But DNF's implementation of it was awful and dumb and fucked up.
You're right. The marketing fiasco was unacceptable. Blaming problems with the marketing industry on the gaming industry is equally unacceptable.
The marketing for games is part of the gaming industry. And I'm not blaming the entire game industry for anything, I'm merely saying that this kind of stuff happens and has happened in various parts of the entire industry, and it's something that needs to be dealt with.
There's a difference between zombies and potentially regressive stereotypes. And Nintendo, for one, hasn't been content with the standard damsel role, and has tried to make the damsels have more influence on the story. And that's good.
So? That doesnt change it. You get a Mario game, you usually expect princesses to be rescued. You get a resident evil game, you expect zombies to be shot. Those are gaming artifacts and situations. You get a Metal gear game, you expect there to be sneaking. Just because "princesses" are of a certain gender it doesnt mean that a damsel in distress story is inherently evil or bad. Would it be better if the princess was a prince? These games have suffered evolution to work within the boundaries of the genres they set up to, but they still have those things going on.
Do you really think there is something regressive about the Gerudos, a race of female warriors, kidnapping zelda and link having to save her? Is that a "regressive stereotype"? Because from my side it looks as an exageration where people are trying to get something to complain about, and not finding what they wanted to find, they just ignore the pieces that go against their wishes.
Would you rather have a "gwen stacy death" adaptation end up with gwen letting spidey fall and while trying to rescue him snap his neck just because gender demands you to protect her from a regressive damsel in distress stereotype? Or can you accept that as a story piece it makes sense?
Gaming abstractions man, you are saving a girl/a family member/whatever and you get invested in it because they humanize those gaming abstractions. You are killing a zombie and you get invested in how monstrous they are .
Quote
I don't know, I'm not her. I hope that she will talk about the outliers in the next episode, with this one setting up the standards, but who knows.
But the mario games and the zelda games are not the standarts. They are the outliers of one side.At least the way she presented them, you surely agree with what im saying?
While I agree with everything else you said, peach being a silly girl in that game is worth complaining about imo.
I havent played that game, i am not aware if peach is, or isnt, a silly girl, I was saying that with the way she presented those other things, she would find something to demerit peach saving mario by claiming it portrayed her gender in a negative manner.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 04:44:24 am
So? That doesnt change it. You get a Mario game, you usually expect princesses to be rescued.
I know. I don't have a big problem with it as long as every game doesn't do it, which they don't. And like I was saying, the games (Zelda moreso) have evolved to make the damsel role less helpless and more proactive. And it's a good thing because it lets them have their cake and eat it too.
Do you really think there is something regressive about the Gerudos, a race of female warriors, kidnapping zelda and link having to save her? Is that a "regressive stereotype"?
What? I don't even know where this is coming from. But no, I don't think it's regressive. I don't have that big of a problem with damsels in distress. And the gender of the kidnapper doesn't really matter.
Would you rather have a "gwen stacy death" adaptation end up with gwen letting spidey fall and while trying to rescue him snap his neck just because gender demands you to protect her from a regressive damsel in distress stereotype? Or can you accept that as a story piece it makes sense?
But the mario games and the zelda games are not the standarts. They are the outliers of one side.At least the way she presented them, you surely agree with what im saying?
They're the standards for recusing damsels-in-distress. And since that's the topic she was focusing on, it makes sense to highlight them. The outliers would be stuff like Monkey Island where the "damsel" is never in distress (except Curse I guess but that was all Guybrush's fault because he's so incompetent) or Mario RPG or even that terrible Zelda CDI game.
I havent played that game, i am not aware if peach is, or isnt, a silly girl, I was saying that with the way she presented those other things, she would find something to demerit peach saving mario by claiming it portrayed her gender in a negative manner.
From what I remember she solves puzzles and fights by using superpowers derived from emotions and changing said emotions at the drop of a hat (eg, putting out fires by deluging them in a torrent of tears)
It sounds really weird but since I never played it I can't really comment on it that well.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 04:48:35 am
Of course not. But there is a fairly well defined line between bad things happening to people and rape caves.
I mean, I don't think it's impossible to do something like what DNF was trying to do, Alien(s) pulled off something similar as horror. But DNF's implementation of it was awful and dumb and fucked up
It was! Because its purpose was to say how fucked up other things like it are! It was a criticism in itself, and so criticizing it is stupid!
The marketing for games is part of the gaming industry. And I'm not blaming the entire game industry for anything, I'm merely saying that this kind of stuff happens and has happened in various parts of the entire industry, and it's something that needs to be dealt with.
I disagree. Often completely separate PR firms are used. You also may want to read your original comment again, because you totally did say that and now you are backpedaling.
That's not really the kind of stereotype I meant. :|
I know! You were talking about stereotypes like they were all harmful. My point is that is not even close to true. Harmful stereotypes of course exist and we should combat them, but stereotypes as a concept are not a bad thing, and occasionally a useful thing.
Just because "princesses" are of a certain gender it doesnt mean that a damsel in distress story is inherently evil or bad. Would it be better if the princess was a prince?
Yes, actually. The implication in media for years has been that women are helpless and need men to help them. That's what she's talking about. She's just picking her examples carefully to make it look like it's much more common in gaming than it is. 'Damsel in distress' might be a lazy plot tool, but it's only a real problem if it leads to gender inequality. We have a ton of strong female heroes and the occasional male in distress now, so I don't think it is much of a problem these days, though.
And in response to things you said further down, yes, Gwen Stacy is a particularly bad example. It's the men with the power to save the women. It's a power imbalance. If Gwen had spider-powers and her mundane mortal boyfriend was in danger, and that happened just as often as the reverse, that'd be much better! Still lazy writing, but not discriminatory. Again, strong female heroes, and even that stupid Northstar's-husband bullshit exist now, so not as much of a problem now as it was in years past, or as much of a problem as she's making it out to be.
Re: Peach, I haven't played it either, but I've seen how it was marketed and read reviews/info (the rom is in my roms folder I just haven't gotten to it yet) and it appears to be one of the more harmful gender portrayals I've encountered in gaming. Paper Mario was great though.
Also, watching the video for myself now, will write things as they occur to me.
Comments and likes disabled on the video? The video already reuploaded by someone else with comments enabled because they take issue with her censorship? Yeah, fuck her just on principle.
Starfox Adventures: Probably had a lot more to do with the selling power of an existing IP than anything to do with women. Nintendo has no problem with strong female characters, what with Samus and the whole Sheik thing.
Five minutes in. *hits post now*
EDIT: She's not wrong about Mario but it's kind of silly to have problems with something with such a simplistic and archetypal plot. That's part of its charm. Those games don't have real stories.
I notice the omission of the Mario RPGs. >_<
EDIT2: Is she seriously making her entire case on games this old? Simplistic stories + decades ago = stereotypes. This isn't shocking or problematic. Now that games have longer, more intricate stories, and don't have to be boiled down to 'protagonist does a thing', we get much better treatment of EVERYTHING. Where is the talk of Portal? :<
Hell, where is the talk of Shadow of the Colossus? She could rip on that legitimately.
EDIT3: Did she really have to mention young, straight, boys and men? Come on. You can't seriously fault people 20+ years ago for not catering to the gay audience. If she was talking about modern games, fine, but NES/SNES/Genesis? That's ridiculous. I also don't see any mention of the tons of iconic platformers that DON'T fall into this pattern, like Sonic or Megaman, or even Streets of Rage or Golden Axe where you could play as women, and fought against women?
EDIT4: Really? Using the babe from Crash 1, and no mention of how that wasn't a plot point in later games as the narrative became more fleshed out, or mentioning the positive portrayal of Coco later on?
EDIT5: That OoT ad is fucking heinous :(
EDIT6: Why are you bitching about remakes don't do that why are you dumb
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 04:54:37 am
I disagree. Often completely separate PR firms are used. You also may want to read your original comment again, because you totally did say that and now you are backpedaling.
It doesn't matter how connected the marketing was to the game itself. The fact that it happened is all that matters.
And no, I did in no way blame this on the entire game industry. I said it was emblematic of the issues that are going on in it.
I know! You were talking about stereotypes like they were all harmful. My point is that is not even close to true. Harmful stereotypes of course exist and we should combat them, but stereotypes as a concept are not a bad thing, and occasionally a useful thing.
Racial and sexual stereotypes are harmful. Stereotypes about cats usually aren't.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 04:58:55 am
Jmorphman, you said that that mario and zelda were using regressive stereotypes so I asked why. I dont see the confusion
iced said:
Those are series where the damsel in distress bit is by now a staple and as such can be pretty much sure to have something like that going on. It would be like covering a resident evil game and be critical of it for having zombies
jmm said:
There's a difference between zombies and potentially regressive stereotypes.
Quote
What? I don't even know where this is coming from. But no, I don't think it's regressive.
Racial and sexual stereotypes are harmful. Stereotypes about cats usually aren't.
(http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1338/15/1338158610760.jpg) Fucking speciest. Why are your issues more important than ours? Die Human Scum.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 05:03:25 am
It doesn't matter how connected the marketing was to the game itself. The fact that it happened is all that matters.
And no, I did in no way blame this on the entire game industry. I said it was emblematic of the issues that are going on in it.
'It doesn't matter that this wasn't connected to the game, it's all the gaming industry's fault, because something unrelated to the gaming industry is a clear indication of lots of problems that I will provide no other indication of but will continue to insist exist in the absence of valid data points.'
Racial and sexual stereotypes are harmful. Stereotypes about cats usually aren't.
Is the stereotype that females are typically the stay-at-home parent harmful?
I don't think so. I think it's only harmful when you act like stereotypes must be conformed to, or that people who don't fall into them are bad.
EDIT IN RESPONSE TO LATEST JMORPH POST:
The definition of a stereotype is 'A conventional or formulaic conception or image'. We usually see buff men and lithe women. Therefore, that is a stereotype. Stereotype doesn't equal bad, please stop using it like it does.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on March 10, 2013, 05:17:54 am
'It doesn't matter that this wasn't connected to the game, it's all the gaming industry's fault, because something unrelated to the gaming industry is a clear indication of lots of problems that I will provide no other indication of but will continue to insist exist in the absence of valid data points.'
Yeah, go fuck yourself.
Woah, OK. :| Well you can go fuck yourself for continuing to misrepresent what I said! The marketing of a game is in no way independent of the game industry. It's ludicrous to pretend that there is some magic barrier separating the promotion of a game and the game itself.
The game industry has problems with women; so does the industries of movies, comic books, and pretty much everything because our entire society has issues with women.
And I already provided two examples, do you want more? How about Harley Quinn's outfit in Injustice? Or that Star Fox thing mentioned in the video? Or Metroid: Other M? Or Dead or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volleyball? Or a thousand other things?
You were bringing up a bunch of unrelated examples that didn't have much to do with anything.
if they can be tweaked to be more proactive, they are being in some part regressive. The bunch of examples I used were the gerudos in zelda( one of the games shown as regressive ) and a classic storyline being changed so that it doesnt present a "regressive stereotype". I used the examples to show that a classic storyline having stereotypes isnt a bad thing and that changing them just because someone is afraid of using "regressive stereotypes" can ruin them.
Compare classic videogames like Double Dragon to classic comic book storylines. Now do a remake of them in modern eras, you can change some points here and there to make them more interesting, but you got to keep somethings to remain within the same story. She criticized Double Dragon and Double Dragon Neon while ignoring Marian shifts between the games. Marian was seen as a reward and serving nothing else to the story other than that reward ( after all you fight your bro in the end for her affection! ) , but removing her from that position would make an entirely different game that wouldnt be a remake to begin with. Should Double dragon be changed so that Marian isnt the motivation of the quest in order to be less regressive?
Snakebyte, the rape caves were hella dumb. they were going for a parody of the genre, but somewhere along the way it become disgusting. It almost started taking itself serious in its power fantasy parody.
You knittahs wont stop posting! Ive been trying to post this for a ton of time but its always " a reply has been posted" BAH!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 05:29:00 am
I used the examples to show that a classic storyline having stereotypes isnt a bad thing and that changing them just because someone is afraid of using "regressive stereotypes" can ruin them.
Oh. I didn't really see the Gerudo's capturing Zelda to be ruinous to anything, because why not? A good story and game could be made out of that.
Compare classic videogames like Double Dragon to classic comic book storylines. Now do a remake of them in modern eras, you can change some points here and there to make them more interesting, but you got to keep somethings to remain within the same story.
And that's basically what the last few Zelda games have done, have "rescuing Zelda" be the goal, but changing and tweaking it to make Zelda a more proactive character. I dunno if that makes the older games regressive, but it certainly makes Zelda a more interesting character.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Roman55 on March 10, 2013, 05:31:58 am
Should Double dragon be changed so that Marian isnt the motivation of the quest in order to be less regressive?
It's funny because the movie and the SNK fighter (which lifted ideas from said movie) didn't have Marian as the motivation. In fact Marian is changed from being a damsel in distress to being one of the fighters. Same thing in the really bad Double Dragon cartoon.
Don't think it helps in this conversation, but it is worth pointing out.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 05:35:56 am
Yeah they werent remakes, the movie had barely any connection. There was also the genesis beat em up that made almost no sense.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Caddie on March 10, 2013, 05:36:45 am
The only thing I gotta say is that Resident Evil is a series that pretty much defines gender equality. Nearly every game in the main series either stars or co-stars(with equal importance) women that are as equal or superior to their male counterparts. Even Resident Evil 4, which stars Leon by himself, has TWO modes you can unlock that feature Ada Wong and her importance to the game. Leon wouldn't have survived without her.
And the clip Anita decided to use is Ashley screaming "Help me Leon!".
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 05:38:28 am
For Double Dragon, maybe they could do something like Art of Fighting (where Yuri trains to be a fighter after her ordeal in the first game)? That might be cool, I dunno.
Woah, OK. :| Well you can go fuck yourself for continuing to misrepresent what I said! The marketing of a game is in no way independent of the game industry. It's ludicrous to pretend that there is some magic barrier separating the promotion of a game and the game itself.
The game industry has problems with women; so does the industries of movies, comic books, and pretty much everything because our entire society has issues with women.
And I already provided two examples, do you want more? How about Harley Quinn's outfit in Injustice? Or that Star Fox thing mentioned in the video? Or Metroid: Other M? Or Dead or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volleyball? Or a thousand other things?
But... There is? Different people, different teams, different companies. The marketing of games has more in common with the marketing of toys and movies and books than it does with the development of any of those things. I agree with most of the rest of what you said (aside from that Star Fox thing being more about brand recognition than gender, and Harley looks great dammit, don't mess with my Harley :()
Is the stereotype that females are typically the stay-at-home parent harmful?
No, because that ain't a stereotype.
You missed my edit, I think.
Quote
EDIT IN RESPONSE TO LATEST JMORPH POST:
The definition of a stereotype is 'A conventional or formulaic conception or image'. We usually see buff men and lithe women. Therefore, that is a stereotype. Stereotype doesn't equal bad, please stop using it like it does.
So, yes, it is. So is a man with muscles and a woman without. So is an aloof cat and a happy slobbery dumb dog. So is a farmer in overalls. So is a redneck with a shotgun and a car in his lawn. A lot of these things are just frequently true. Something can't be negative/discriminatory if it's true, problems only arise when we assume it's always true and discriminate as if it is. I'm allowed to be surprised at well-dressed farmers, but not to ban all farmers from my clothing store because they clearly only buy overalls and the overall store is that way!
Snakebyte, the rape caves were hella dumb. they were going for a parody of the genre, but somewhere along the way it become disgusting. It almost started taking itself serious in its power fantasy parody.
It was supposed to be disgusting! It wouldn't be effectively parodic/critical if it wasn't!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 05:44:39 am
Different people, different teams, different companies. The marketing of games has more in common with the marketing of toys and movies and books than it does with the development of any of those things.
But it is part of the game industry; it is not a totally independent thing. It was done for a game.
And the marketing had to be approved by the people in charge.
The definition of a stereotype is 'A conventional or formulaic conception or image'. We usually see buff men and lithe women. Therefore, that is a stereotype. Stereotype doesn't equal bad, please stop using it like it does.
I've been talking about a specific set of stereotypes, racial and sexual ones. The kind that are referred to when using the word stereotype in most cases. And they are bad, and harmful. And also pretty unrelated to the rest of the discussion. :-X
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 05:50:32 am
But it is part of the game industry; it is not a totally independent thing. It was done for a game.
And the marketing had to be approved by the people in charge.
That's not always the case, no. Paying a marketing firm is different from choosing everything yourself. And 'the people in charge' are publishers, not developers. The important people are the ones CREATING the games. DoA especially is an incredibly valid criticism and Itagaki is a womanizing fuck, but this isn't and Rhianna Pratchett isn't. I have a replica of Cole's messenger bag from Infamous 2. If it was made shoddily, would it be valid as an example of shoddy worksmanship in the game industry? IT WAS DONE FOR A GAME!
I've been talking about a specific set of stereotypes, racial and sexual ones. The kind that are referred to when using the word stereotype in most cases. And they are bad, and harmful. And also pretty unrelated to the rest of the discussion. :-X
Stereotypes are by definition harmful. And one doesn't really need to study anything to see that the game industry doesn't exactly have a sterling record with women (in recent years there has been the rape caves in Duke Nukem Forever, and the PR fiasco of Tomb Raider)
If you are using the word 'stereotypes' to refer to negative, harmful, bigoted stereotypes only, you are using the word incorrectly, like I have been saying since the very first time you used the word. Please stop. :<
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on March 10, 2013, 05:55:52 am
I don't know why you keep bringing up Tomb Raider: The Game, because I have been talking about Tomb Raider: The Marketing Experience. As an example of the way the game industry sometimes treats women badly. That's literally it.
I just wanted to make you say that stereotypes are not what is defined as a stereotype, thanks for your cooperation, I can abandon the topic now.
So you wanted me to say that stereotypes are not what you think stereotypes are, which isn't actually the definition of stereotypes, because stereotypes are not based on facts, but rather beliefs? OK, well have fun with all that. :|
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 06:26:07 am
I don't know why you keep bringing up Tomb Raider: The Game, because I have been talking about Tomb Raider: The Marketing Experience. As an example of the way the game industry sometimes treats women badly. That's literally it.
Because, for the nth time, the marketing industry is not the gaming industry. Just like the backpack industry is not the gaming industry.
Stereotypes are by definition harmful. And one doesn't really need to study anything to see that the game industry doesn't exactly have a sterling record with women (in recent years there has been the rape caves in Duke Nukem Forever, and the PR fiasco of Tomb Raider)
Gender stereotypes in games are not always negative or harmful. That is what many of my posts in this topic have been about! You're wrong, I've pointed out clearly and repeatedly how you're wrong, stop squirming. I would not be talking about this if you did not begin by saying something wrong that you are trying to pretend you didn't say.
So you wanted me to say that stereotypes are not what you think stereotypes are, which isn't actually the definition of stereotypes, because stereotypes are not based on facts, but rather beliefs? OK, well have fun with all that. :|
Beliefs... are typically... based... on... facts...
EDIT: Ugh is it just me or am I starting to sound like hjk. Fuck it I'm out.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 07:26:18 am
Did I say that? No. Are you ignoring my valid point and trying to attack me instead? Yes.
How is that an attack? It is very much a valid point, you keep trying to dismiss the whole Tomb Raider PR thing. I have said from the start that isn't connected with the game itself, but was symptomatic of a larger problem the industry has. You have continued to try and make an exception out of it, and so I'm giving examples of why it can't be isolated. This latest one is that the publishers are part of the game industry. They approved the marketing campaign. That means the Tomb Raider PR thing is linked to the game industry.
Oh, hey, an empty retort that ignores me pointing out exactly where and how you backpedalled and why I am calling you out on it.
I already addressed it. I have been talking about gender stereotypes from the very start, it's what this thread is about. It's not about cat stereotypes or redneck stereotypes: it's about a very specific subset of stereotypes that are harmful because they make objects out of women, that reduce them into easily digestible buzzwords. That's never going to be not a bad thing. I have been talking about this subset and only this subset the entire time, perhaps I was unclear, but I thought it was obvious.
Beliefs... are typically... based... on... facts...
And sometimes they're not. But that doesn't really have anything to do with anything, because the definition of a stereotype is a thought or way of thinking that applies to specific types of people that may or may not reflect reality. There is no required factual component.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Duos on March 10, 2013, 07:32:02 am
People who get mad at the new Tomb Raider because it has attempted rape and gory death scenes wouldn't give half a shit if Lara was a man. Absolute fact.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 07:32:58 am
People who get mad at the new Tomb Raider because it has attempted rape and gory death scenes wouldn't give half a shit if Lara was a man. Absolute fact.
No one was talking about the actual game, though. :P
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 07:48:59 am
K I'm gonna try this again but calmer because I still have things I want to say.
I think 'sexism in the gaming industry', or whatever you call it, should only be relevant in two areas.
- Whether women are being discriminated against in the workplace or not hired, like any industry, and; - Whether the games themselves are sexist or discriminatory.
As we're talking about problems in the fictional medium and not problems in the workplace, the only really relevant people to discuss should be the people making the game, such as Team Ninja, who I agree are really awful about it. Whether publishers or marketers or whatever slant things seems to me to be of greatly lessened importance than the content of the games themselves. A shitty publisher (whose main purposes are to handle marketing, funding, and distribution) hiring a shitty marketer for a shitty marketing campaign is far different from creating a product that is inherently bigoted or harmful.
Furthermore, I think I've said this a thousand times already, marketing firms are marketing firms and handle all sorts of things, not just games, so problems with marketing are not problems that are limited to any specific medium. How have I failed to express this? I've tried the metaphor thing already. I don't know how to express this any more clearly than I already have. Marketing is its own, separate, industry. You hire the same people with the same biases that you do for, I don't know, Easy Bake Ovens and Ocean's 14, so using that to say bad things about gaming is unfair.
I've quoted you like three times saying 'STEREOTYPES ARE BY DEFINITION HARMFUL.' Did you just skim over that part? It's what you said, bro. You misspoke. Stop trying to make out like you were obviously right all along and I'm just misunderstanding you. I admit it when I phrase something poorly or my mind blanks out for a minute and I type the wrong thing, and it aggravates me when other people don't. If you didn't say 'STEREOTYPES ARE BY DEFINITION HARMFUL', why would I be arguing that some stereotypes aren't harmful? You then said something like all stereotypes are harmful and by stereotypes i mean harmful stereotypes and just COME ON MAN. Come on.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 08:04:24 am
As we're talking about problems in the fictional medium and not problems in the workplace, the only really relevant people to discuss should be the people making the game, such as Team Ninja, who I agree are really awful about it.
Well, I disagree. The "gaming industry" doesn't just mean the games themselves, it is comprised everyone involved with making the game. Publishers, developers, and yes, even marketers. But I don't think we're gonna go anywhere with this. :-\
Marketing is its own, separate, industry. You hire the same people with the same biases that you do for, I don't know, Easy Bake Ovens and Ocean's 14, so using that to say bad things about gaming is unfair.
I used it as an example of the problems the gaming industry has with women. Whether the marketing was done by an outside firm or not is completely irrelevant. It was approved by the publishers, it's advertising a game, etc.
Gaming marketing falls under the umbrella of the game industry; of course, it is also connected to the marketing industry as a whole, but it's not an either/or situation. At this point, this is all semantics.
I've quoted you like three times saying 'STEREOTYPES ARE BY DEFINITION HARMFUL.' Did you just skim over that part?
Yep, I did. I remember, don't worry. And gender stereotypes are harmful. So are racist stereotypes. In fact, stereotypes in general are pretty harmful because they reduce a person into a phrase. Those kinds of stereotypes are bad. As for stereotypes about cats? I dunno, who gives a shit, they're not people; I haven't been talking about cat stereotypes. I've been talking about gender ones this entire time. I didn't misspeak. I said what I mean, and I stand by it: stereotypes are by definition harmful because they take away someone's very personhood.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 08:20:59 am
I agree, that's why I didn't use the phrase 'gaming industry' in the first part. My point was that the developers are the most important part of the gaming industry for the purposes of this argument, because they are the ones actually creating the product, and giving it whatever messages it has or doesn't have. Anything else is window dressing. And a game with, I don't know, an oversexualized woman on the cover, is much less harmful than a game with a rape cave.
Holy crap you just don't stop wiggling do you? Yet another completely new revision to avoid having possibly said something wrong? You've already gone down this road and maximillianjesus has already proven you wrong. The stereotype of the buff man and the lithe and agile female is very common in games. That is a gender stereotype. You have already said that is not harmful. Same with my example of the stay-at-home mom. That is one of the better examples of gender stereotypes that you will find, but according to you, both of those aren't stereotypes, because they aren't harmful. You're either not using language right or you're being incredibly duplicitous.
EDIT: Never mind, I did use the phrase 'gaming industry' in the first part there. I am clearly a moron.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 08:39:24 am
Yet another completely new revision to avoid having possibly said something wrong? You've already gone down this road and maximillianjesus has already proven you wrong.
I'm saying the same exact things I have been saying all along. And yes, [E] sure proved me wrong with his made-up definition of stereotypes!
The stereotype of the buff man and the lithe and agile female is very common in games. That is a gender stereotype. You have already said that is not harmful.
Uh, no, I didn't. I said stereotypes about cats are not harmful. Because they're fucking cats.
That's not a stereotype, that's statistics. I said that the last time. A stereotype would be more like "wimpy stay-at-home dad" or "June Cleaver-esque stay-at-home-mom or something: a phrase that connotates certain things about a person. This is by nature reductive, and harmful.
That is one of the better examples of gender stereotypes that you will find, but according to you, both of those aren't stereotypes, because they aren't harmful. You're either not using language right or you're being incredibly duplicitous.
The "buff man, agile women" thing are more so character archetypes, but they're stereotypes too, I guess, in certain circumstances. And in those circumstances they reduce a person. They're harmful.
But in the end, this entire stereotype conversation isn't really pertinent to the topic at hand.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 08:51:25 am
Okay, I'm going to go with 'not using language right' instead of 'incredibly duplicitous'.
Is the stereotype that females are typically the stay-at-home parent harmful?
No, because that ain't a stereotype.
And right here.
(I messed up which one it was that you said wasn't harmful).
I have a dictionary application in my taskbar. It says:
Noun: stereotype 1. a conventional or formulaic conception or image "regional stereotypes have been part of America since its founding" 2. an irrelevant definition about printing press parts I am too lazy to copy properly.
You're using 'stereotype' like 'harmful stereotype' is redundant, and it really isn't.
EDIT: Also I like most cats a lot more than I like most people. Why so mean? :(
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 09:05:35 am
Cats are fine, but they're not people. They're like 3/5ths of a person, tops. ... OK that's definitely a sign that it's time for sleep.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 09:37:39 am
Yes, and as such, can only piss me off 3/5th as much! :D
Though I guess they can piss on me that much more...
WHY AM I TYPING THIS GOOD NIGHT
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 10, 2013, 10:26:31 am
Stereotypes about cats and shit are completely irrelevant because cats are dissociated from the importance that humans hold or should hold toward one another. I can't believe someone is defending stereotypes and comparing it to the traits of very basic animals who aren't even infinitesimally close to the complexity of a human being -- especially when it comes to those complex behaviors and thought patterns derived from socialization.
Sure, we are not more important than other animals in so much as that we are all alive and we all live our lives and die on the same planet and need about the same things to survive, but contextually, other humans matter more to other humans. Racism and misogyny against cats don't exist, not even amongst cats themselves, and there aren't many people who have unbridled hate toward cats and want to rape and kill them simply because of something as silly as the color of their hair, or because they deserve to be killed for being attractive or for being stupid. Who told her to be a woman? She needs to be raped for being a woman! It's her fault! This is how some rapists think. Others want to rape and kill women because women represent weakness, or because their screams of pain are so sexy. Tons of reason for rape, but there's a huge problem when rape is mostly done by men who desire women victims. I can't see how anyone could say there isn't a problem and that a game that incorporates rape as a sort of casual existence is not a product of the aforementioned problem.
Anyway, that unbridled hate mentioned above all begins with these basic things of the cultures of the world, especially the young who are influenced by videos games and such; not saying that a video game will make someone become a rapist, but it's an addition to the rest of a culture that objectifies and infantilizes women. From ads that synonymize women with objects used to make wildest dreams come true, to the sizes of women clothing that don't match any known standard of measurement that tell women to be small and not take up too much space (seriously, who wears a size 0?); from making women focus more on their appearance, rather than on things that really matter, to over-sexualizing women, but, at the same time, telling them not to be sexual at all or else be stained for life with slutness.
Even if she talks about those other games that portray women as the main protagonist that is capable, that doesn't matter because the opposite still exists, and the opposite represents an ACTUAL problem within our cultures. Like she said in her video, it's okay to enjoy any type of media, as long as you are aware of the problems that they represent. So there's nothing wrong with damsel in distress inherently, but when placed into the context of our time -- yes, there is something off about it being the main theme of hundreds, if not thousands, of video games that hundreds of thousands (mostly male) people play.
On the other hand, a decent researcher researches all sides of a problem and presents all the facts from each side. With all facts presented, a decent researcher explains all the facts, and in doing so, explains why the facts that don't matter don't actually matter. So, it would be a good idea for her to talk about some of those games that supposedly disprove her point, but this is part one, so it's probably too early to say.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 04:14:18 pm
Sexism in games happens, it also happens in movies and comics. Its a bad step in bad writing, you get shitty writers and you get sexism. racism, and a myriad of other themes that arent approached correctly. To pick up Mario and Zelda as examples of it is weird imo, they are basic games that follow fairytale themes, with princesses being kidnapped, they arent good demonstrations of sexism specially when the narrator ignores all the changes in the same games, focusing only on what proves her point " HEy guys mario and zelda are implying women need to be rescued". It demonstrates a lack of understanding of the narrative genre. It also pretends that the outliers do not exist. This might change in future episodes, I hope it does, but I am not holding my breath for it after the characterization given in this one.
Its easy to accuse anything of being sexist, by focusing on a very limited example, you can do it to spider-man, superman, even sonic and the teletubbies if you try hard enough. So far her demonstrations ignored the evolutions inside the same game series that went against those norms.
Also, equality for cats and other animals is actually a form of ethical phlosophy that got advanced by Peter Singer in the nineties. So, yes, there are people out there that would get offended at your stereotypical portrayal of nonhuman animals.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lobo on March 10, 2013, 04:25:22 pm
I know I am going to get alot of shit for his but I don't think that feminism =/= equality.
It took that stance back in the day and currently it is in the form of feminism lite (sex positive feminism) and what has turned into "regular" feminism (i guess sex negative feminism). Even the name implies female sexuality. I'm really surprised that society hasn't made a definition for people like me either than Humanist. Because I don't think it represents equal rights. Feminism back then used to be about promoting female rights while preserving the standards of how we operate as a society. Currently it involves dropping standards to satisfy a quota or else funding gets cut by a percentage.
Personally as a guy I'm really tired of feminists today behaving like the top dog and jumping into victim mode at the tip of the hat. I would really like to see more equality driven feminists like Bea. Maybe the world would be a better place. I'm just surprised that there aren't women insulted about being treated inferior because they are seen as less than men. If I was a police officer and if the department were to drop their standards on my behalf I would feel like there is no reason for me to be there either than to help the department get extra funding for hiring me. I respected feminism back then when women wanted a shot at happiness and proved it with their work. Now, it is nothing more than a bunch of women calling foul on frivolous issues.
I really hope that equality prevails but if this keeps up you'll see more MRAs and we will have the same that is going now but man flavored. You already have female MRAs and the same Marxist bullshit will happen. Apparently neither men nor women fully understood the point that Orwell's Animal Farm was making.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: San2 on March 10, 2013, 05:31:57 pm
The only thing I gotta say is that Resident Evil is a series that pretty much defines gender equality. Nearly every game in the main series either stars or co-stars(with equal importance) women that are as equal or superior to their male counterparts.
Jill is less resistant to damage than Chris and needs Barry to protect her. And canonically she spent the night in a cell while Chris explored the mansion. Very sexist.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on March 10, 2013, 05:37:03 pm
yeah, and it makes sense that she takes less damage than chris since she is fa rless muscular than him; if chris was a skinny bishounen and jill was someone like angela belty the opossite should be true.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 05:49:43 pm
specially when the narrator ignores all the changes in the same games
She ignored some but mentioned others. She could go more indepth with it but on the other hand that would probably take up the entire episode's runtime. I dunno, maybe the first video should've focused only on Mario and Zelda?
focusing only on what proves her point " HEy guys mario and zelda are implying women need to be rescued". It demonstrates a lack of understanding of the narrative genre. It also pretends that the outliers do not exist.
I think you have a lack of understanding of what she's saying. She didn't say that first thing, she obviously understands the narrative, and she mentioned outliers but didn't delve into them (hopefully that will be next episode)
Also, equality for cats and other animals is actually a form of ethical phlosophy that got advanced by Peter Singer in the nineties. So, yes, there are people out there that would get offended at your stereotypical portrayal of nonhuman animals.
I know I am going to get alot of shit for his but I don't think that feminism =/= equality.
OK, well I can say that racism is about loving people but that doesn't really make it true. Because words mean things, and one can't go around changing the definition of them out of some misguided view that all feminists are man-hating bra burners.
Jill is less resistant to damage than Chris and needs Barry to protect her. And canonically she spent the night in a cell while Chris explored the mansion. Very sexist.
But Jill can also hold more items, use the grenade launcher, and is skilled enough to use a lockpick to open doors while Chris is stuck lugging small keys around. And Chris needs Rebecca to protect him just as much as Jill does, i.e.: depending on what you do, Chris or Jill may be incapacitated and require aid from Rebecca and Barry.
Also the canon scenario involved both Chris and Jill running around the mansion, with the two of them, as well as Rebecca and Barry, escaping to safety. It is likely that Jill confronted Wesker in the lab and fought the Tyrant the first time, and Chris killed the Tyrant with the rocket launcher in the last fight.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 10, 2013, 07:48:31 pm
Jokes on us. Look at that free pile of games.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on March 10, 2013, 08:43:29 pm
Well, it's your fault for donating.
the truth is her thesis is how easy it is to scam people if you raise money to prove their agenda.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Nomechy on March 10, 2013, 08:51:24 pm
Why did she not just watch gameplay of cutscenes off the internet? Buying those games was never needed.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 08:57:20 pm
It seems odd to me to try and speak about a game without actually playing it.
But she does not focus on gameplay, but rather on the characters, story and how they are related to the problems she brings up. You can get a perfectly good idea of those things without needing to buy and play the game yourself.
Im just saying the the having to get her hands on these games as research material is not really sensible. Even less so asking people online to give her the money to do it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 09:11:24 pm
But she does not focus on gameplay, but rather on the characters, story and how they are related to the problems she brings up. You can get a perfectly good idea of those things without needing to buy and play the game yourself.
It just seems weird to me to skip out on playing the games, it seems like the equivalent would be like if someone was examining movie tropes involving women but didn't watch any of the movies and merely read summaries on them.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 10, 2013, 09:14:10 pm
It just seems weird to me to skip out on playing the games, it seems like the equivalent would be like if someone was examining movie tropes involving women but didn't watch any of the movies and merely read summaries on them.
again, the first game she mentions was never playable
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 09:16:43 pm
again, the first game she mentions was never playable
I know. If she can't play it I don't think she should be barred from commenting on it (but she got it wrong anyway so uh I dunno she needs to do more research), but if the game is publicly available, playing it is better than not playing it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 09:24:30 pm
almost her whole review was based on snes era nintendo games, those stacks of games she bought are all xbox wii and ps3, not even ps2.
The next video is about modern games, so I would think that video would feature those games. This is a series of videos, not just a one off, so I don't find it odd that she's not showing off every single game she bought.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 10, 2013, 09:27:36 pm
Girl - I want a pile of money and video games. Maybe I'll ask the internet, and tell 'em it's for research.
Internet - You're hawt. Here's 26 times the absurd amount of money you asked for. How did you like the games? And the new house, car and manager?
Girl - bla bla bla
Internet - I find your interpretations of gender and sex in video games interesting enough to write a wall of text. Please find me and fuck me. What other castle?
Yeah, that just happened.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 09:48:10 pm
its bad practice to assume white knighting just because she is a woman. More likely people that use the internet let themselves be defined by traits that are not really defining traits most of the time.
those include being feminists and gaming, so they are willing to throw money at something that recognizes and validates their interests.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 09:57:25 pm
Why is everyone focusing on cats when there were multiple examples of non-harmful gender stereotypes given?
That rant about rape on the previous page makes no sense at all. Don't blame insane people on the media, or try to say that some aspects of human behaviour should be kept out of fiction.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 10:00:29 pm
stereotypes are part of narratives, they even serve to be twisted around, there is no one insisting that normal stereotypes are harmful. ( maybe jmorphman is, i dunno i didnt read the long arguments you two had over grammar ) . racial and gender stereotypes can be harmful ( doesnt mean they have to, but they can ) in that dumber people tend to remove personal traits from anything they can stereotype instead.
And cats are the superior species.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 10:02:42 pm
The first thing Jmorphman said on the subject was 'Stereotypes are by definition harmful'. At the top of the last page he said 'And gender stereotypes are harmful. So are racist stereotypes. [...] stereotypes are by definition harmful because they take away someone's very personhood,' and he claimed that every non-harmful gender stereotype that was brought up was not a stereotype. Rajaa seemed to be agreeing with him.
I agree with what you just said completely and expressing that is my sole purpose in posting in this thread.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 10:08:18 pm
Why is everyone focusing on cats when there were multiple examples of non-harmful gender stereotypes given?
Funny, I don't remember any. I remember some things that were proclaimed to be stereotypes, but weren't actually stereotypes.
But I've said my two cents on the matter pretty thoroughly so I don't really have anything more to add.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 10:09:25 pm
Yeah, we've already established that claiming things that meet the dictionary definition but not your unsupported definition are not in fact those things is a bullshit way to argue.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 10:11:05 pm
Yeah, we've already established that claiming things that meet the dictionary definition but not your unsupported definition are not in fact those things is a bullshit way to argue.
1 : a plate cast from a printing surface 2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 10, 2013, 10:20:59 pm
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 10:26:15 pm
Thanks for proving my point, Jmorph. See where it says 'especially'? That means 'not always'.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 10:29:14 pm
Right. Because I've been talking about every single kind of stereotype. Not just the harmful ones. The ones that fall under the "especially" part. :pwn:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 10:35:47 pm
Yup, you have. That's why you said
'Stereotypes are by definition harmful'
'And gender stereotypes are harmful. So are racist stereotypes'
'stereotypes are by definition harmful because they take away someone's very personhood,'
If you were not, you would have said
'Harmful stereotypes exist'
'Harmful gender stereotypes exist. So do racist stereotypes'.
'Some stereotypes are harmful because they take away someone's very personhood.'
Which is what I have been saying.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 10:38:18 pm
I'll just quote myself because I already talked about this
This whole topic is about harmful stereotypes; it's about gender stereotypes in games! What else would I possibly have been referring to?
And we're right back into arguing into circles. Whee. This is pretty pointless.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 10:42:15 pm
snakebyte and jmorphman both get a c minus in communication skills because i managed to say all of that in a post instead of a bunch of them.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 10:50:16 pm
So? You still made false statements. Get over it and move on.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 10:57:13 pm
No, you misinterpreted my statements. Get over it and move on.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 11:06:55 pm
Except I didn't. Because your statements are false and there is no getting around that.
You didn't say 'Harmful stereotypes are harmful', that is a pointless tautology. You said 'Stereotypes are by definition harmful.' They are not. Stop trying to pretend you didn't fuck up.
EDIT: typo.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Hoshi on March 10, 2013, 11:08:59 pm
I'm more concerned overall of how she screwed people on the money. The stack of games she has in the photo on the first page is only worth about ~$12,000 + tax. I can't imagine that she didn't use emulators for the old school games(ie. free), and the quality of the video doesn't seem any better than her older works. I'd get her to post her costs publicly.
Honestly, this whole thing is troll bait and incredibly opinionated, so I don't care about the project's "meaning".
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 10, 2013, 11:11:00 pm
Quote
All the digital games downloaded via Steam, PSN and XBLM are sadly not nearly as photogenic, but rest assured we are looking at classic titles from throughout the history of gaming.
EDIT: i really doubt she spent the rest of the money on digital games.
Quote
As a result of the unexpected extra Kickstarter funding I can now commit full-time to Feminist Frequency and to this video series which is truly a dream come true for me! I can now also hire my producer full-time for this project. Plus we are in the process of bringing another writer/researcher on board part-time. So far I’ve chosen to keep my small crew out of the limelight to try and shield them from any potential harassment. When I feel it is safe and appropriate to introduce them I will.
i'd rather wait until her video series is complete before complaining that she's wasting other people's money.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 11:11:45 pm
You didn't way 'Harmful stereotypes are harmful', that is a pointless tautology.
Of course not. I said gender stereotypes were harmful. I omitted the word "gender" because I didn't need to include it, because this topic is about gender stereotypes. The end. There's nothing under the curtain.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 11:17:37 pm
And they're not, always.
As you've already admitted.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 11:18:40 pm
I did no such thing. But please, do continue on this pointless crusade to try and prove me wrong.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 11:19:39 pm
Yeah, we've already established that claiming things that meet the dictionary definition but not your unsupported definition are not in fact those things is a bullshit way to argue.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 11:25:28 pm
Yeah, we've already established that claiming things that meet the dictionary definition but not your unsupported definition are not in fact those things is a bullshit way to argue.
1 : a plate cast from a printing surface 2 : something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment
I've said everything that needs to be said, I've explained my position countless times. If you want to continue arguing in circles, be my guest. But I'm afraid you'll have to do it alone.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 11:26:24 pm
Thanks for proving my point, Jmorph. See where it says 'especially'? That means 'not always'.
I can also post half a dozen other dictionary definitions that don't include anything about that at all.
Is here where you claim that you were only talking about the harmful stereotypes again? And then change your mind and say you're only talking about the gender ones? I'm only arguing in circles because I've already repeatedly shown how you're wrong, but you refuse to accept it, so round and round we go.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 10, 2013, 11:31:11 pm
here are the titles of the upcoming videos.
Damsel in Distress - Video #1 The Fighting F#@k Toy - Video #2 The Sexy Sidekick - Video #3 The Sexy Villainess - Video #4 Background Decoration - Video #5 Voodoo Priestess/Tribal Sorceress - Video #6 Women as Reward - Video #7 Mrs. Male Character - Video #8 Unattractive Equals Evil - Video #9 Man with Boobs - Video #10 Positive Female Characters! - Video #11 Top 10 Most Common Defenses of Sexism in Games - Video #12
i get the impression that only one of them will actually talk about the positive females in games, instead of sprinkling them into the other topics (she absolutely failed to do that in the first video). i'm sorry, but she's awful. i'm not a feminist because men can't be feminists. i often sympathize with the cause and one of my best friends is a raging feminist. i wish somebody else was doing this. she makes feminists look bad.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 11:34:25 pm
Those titles are horrid. What are they trying to prove with this again?
One of those titles imply that women that act unwomanly arent woman at all. Ugly woman are villains? Geez, ugly men are villains too what is this even
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 11:36:03 pm
One of those titles imply that women that act unwomanly arent woman at all. Ugly woman are villains? Geez, ugly men are villains too what is this even
I think you're reading too deeply into things. :-\
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: MissB on March 10, 2013, 11:41:52 pm
They are GAMES, for entertainment. Both men AND women are usually exaggerated characters in entertainment.
:bow:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 11:42:14 pm
I think its you that arent readng deeply at all.
the "man with boobs" trope is about how samus isnt a "real woman" because she doesnt act like one.
"The Toronto Star argued that the sexual politics surrounding Samus and the Metroid series needed to stop, as they considered it unwarranted. They remarked that although Samus is female, it is not a significant characteristic after considering the fact that she spends most of her time in a suit of armor that 'precludes creepy ogling'. The newspaper believed that the 'big crazy shock to the gaming public' that followed after Metroid revealed that Samus is female was 'some seriously misspent energy [...] Metroid Prime's heroine is not a woman for the benefit of the sweaty/excited crowd, and neither is she a standard-bearer nor a courageous leader in the struggle for video game civil rights. She is a supremely talented action figure, and in the closeups on her helmet you can kind of see that she wears mascara, but that is all.' Rupert Goodwins of The Independent wrote, 'Samus Aran [...] is apparently female, although the Transformer-like suit she wears could just as easily contain a large centipede; it's hardly a breakthrough for feminism.'"
The portal protagonist is usually also accused of being a man with boobs.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 11:45:06 pm
the "man with boobs" trope is about how samus isnt a "real woman" because she doesnt act like one.
"The Toronto Star argued that the sexual politics surrounding Samus and the Metroid series needed to stop, as they considered it unwarranted. They remarked that although Samus is female, it is not a significant characteristic after considering the fact that she spends most of her time in a suit of armor that 'precludes creepy ogling'. The newspaper believed that the 'big crazy shock to the gaming public' that followed after Metroid revealed that Samus is female was 'some seriously misspent energy [...] Metroid Prime's heroine is not a woman for the benefit of the sweaty/excited crowd, and neither is she a standard-bearer nor a courageous leader in the struggle for video game civil rights. She is a supremely talented action figure, and in the closeups on her helmet you can kind of see that she wears mascara, but that is all.' Rupert Goodwins of The Independent wrote, 'Samus Aran [...] is apparently female, although the Transformer-like suit she wears could just as easily contain a large centipede; it's hardly a breakthrough for feminism.'"
But that's the Toronto Star, not Anita SarkIdon'trememberherlastnameian. If she says the same thing in the video, then I'll join you in complaining about it. Because that's dumb.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 11:45:36 pm
Yeah, that's the one that got me, too.
Video games are bad because women are treated how women were treated in the past (objects, property, etc)
And then...
Video games are bad because women are interchangeable with men and not 'womanly enough' to be 'real women'?
What in the fuck, how do you win?
Oversexualization is definitely a problem and we're FINALLY making some strides in seeing that go away (Ellie in The Last of Us anyone?) but a lot of the rest of this is bullshit.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 11:46:35 pm
The only possible way I could see it being a bad thing was if all female characters were like that, I guess.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 11:47:36 pm
At this point I genuinely don't understand how she wants women to be treated.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 10, 2013, 11:49:51 pm
The Sexy Villainess - Video #4 Unattractive Equals Evil - Video #9
why
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 11:50:22 pm
The Sexy Villainess - Video #4 Unattractive Equals Evil - Video #9
why
TROPES
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 10, 2013, 11:53:17 pm
Thats the actual trope Morph. Shes not going to make a video about a trope and then not use the trope. "Oh I call it the same but i want it to mean something else."
Its a trope that complains that women should be treated as equals but when they are in a way that makes them umcomfortable you bitch about them not being female enough. You know who fits in there? pretty much every female character that isnt from a rpg. Samus, chell, chun li, the girl from golden axe, the girl from mirror edge, anyone that isnt outspoken about their femeninity. Anyone that is a tomboy, or does manly things. You cant limit characters like that, there is something profoundly wrong about saying "well thats not a "REAL" woman."
Also jm you are pretty bad at understanding basic shit. Titiln is not asking why those are tropes, he is asking why would anyone sane cover both. Its complaining of both . "Oh shes a villain so they had to make her hot!" "Oh shes a villain so they had to make her ugly!" it shows an unability to figure out whats better from their point of view when they complain about everything anyway.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 10, 2013, 11:54:12 pm
Also jm you are pretty bad at understanding basic shit.
EPIC THIS
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 10, 2013, 11:54:57 pm
Yeah, I know, but I don't know what the hell else 'Man with Boobs' could possibly be.
But I see the point there. You don't see unattractive female heroes, ever, and you see tons of warty witches and things. And tons of villainesses wear much less than their heroic counterparts. I don't think that's necessarily a problem... Associating lust-gone-wild with evil goes a lot deeper than anything to do with discriminating against women. And no one really wants to look at ugly people the entire time they're playing a game. o_O
I think she's trying to point out that there isn't a middle ground between 'warty old hag' and 'almost nude beauty' for evil females and that might be somewhat valid.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Wolf on March 10, 2013, 11:56:35 pm
the "man with boobs" trope is about how samus isnt a "real woman" because she doesnt act like one.
"The Toronto Star argued that the sexual politics surrounding Samus and the Metroid series needed to stop, as they considered it unwarranted. They remarked that although Samus is female, it is not a significant characteristic after considering the fact that she spends most of her time in a suit of armor that 'precludes creepy ogling'. The newspaper believed that the 'big crazy shock to the gaming public' that followed after Metroid revealed that Samus is female was 'some seriously misspent energy [...] Metroid Prime's heroine is not a woman for the benefit of the sweaty/excited crowd, and neither is she a standard-bearer nor a courageous leader in the struggle for video game civil rights. She is a supremely talented action figure, and in the closeups on her helmet you can kind of see that she wears mascara, but that is all.' Rupert Goodwins of The Independent wrote, 'Samus Aran [...] is apparently female, although the Transformer-like suit she wears could just as easily contain a large centipede; it's hardly a breakthrough for feminism.'"
The portal protagonist is usually also accused of being a man with boobs.
do you even read?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 10, 2013, 11:57:50 pm
Thats the actual trope Morph. Shes not going to make a video about a trope and then not use the trope. "Oh I call it the same but i want it to mean something else."
She could use it as a launching point, exploring whether it holds any merit, and showing examples to support her argument. Of course, given the first video, it seems pretty unlikely, but I'm not going to rule it out.
Why is everyone focusing on cats when there were multiple examples of non-harmful gender stereotypes given?
That rant about rape on the previous page makes no sense at all. Don't blame insane people on the media, or try to say that some aspects of human behaviour should be kept out of fiction.
Actually, if you read it, it wasn't a rant. And you can't talk about feminism without talking about rape anyway. My post didn't mention the media at all and the only thing about a game in that paragraph is to say that it's ridiculous that one could say that a game that casually incorporates rape into it is not a product of the problem in the cultures. Nowhere in my post did I say that the product was good or bad or representative of anything besides the culture that demeans women. If you're gonna respond to my post, at least quote it and read it, and ask me if you're unsure about something.
The first thing Jmorphman said on the subject was 'Stereotypes are by definition harmful'. At the top of the last page he said 'And gender stereotypes are harmful. So are racist stereotypes. [...] stereotypes are by definition harmful because they take away someone's very personhood,' and he claimed that every non-harmful gender stereotype that was brought up was not a stereotype. Rajaa seemed to be agreeing with him.
I agree with what you just said completely and expressing that is my sole purpose in posting in this thread.
My point was that comparing harmful stereotypes to some generalizations about cats is ridiculous. The topic is about those harmful stereotypes that are attributes of larger concepts such as racism and misogyny. A cat being a lonewolf and fending for itself has nothing to do with thousands of people who have imbedded hate for women. There is no large group of people that oppress cats for being cats or treats cats differently for being who they are. Your cat example was one of the most ridiculous things to come out of this discussion.
@Iced: I agree, some people will put all other living organisms on the same level of humans, but, if it wasn't clear, my point was that cats are not victims of horrible discrimination that gets them relentless targeted for acts of violence.
Also. She just got a bunch of money from people: she is now going to throw out some useless drivel for the masses, then she will proceed to enjoy her massive amount of funds. Thanks, internet, for validating exploitative people like this.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 12:04:29 am
@Rajaa: Jmorphman has repeatedly claimed that all stereotypes are harmful. I have been claiming that only harmful stereotypes are harmful. The cat example was not the only one I used, and that difference was exactly what I was getting at.
Quote
Who told her to be a woman? She needs to be raped for being a woman! It's her fault! This is how some rapists think. Others want to rape and kill women because women represent weakness, or because their screams of pain are so sexy. Tons of reason for rape, but there's a huge problem when rape is mostly done by men who desire women victims. I can't see how anyone could say there isn't a problem and that a game that incorporates rape as a sort of casual existence is not a product of the aforementioned problem.
This is the ridiculous part. How are insane people relevant? At all.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 11, 2013, 12:08:38 am
Ed, Iced gave Toronto Star's explanation of "Man With Boobs", then JMM argued that it was TStar and not Anita Whatsherface. Snakebyte responded that if Iced's quote wasn't what Anita had in mind, then he didn't know what else "Man With Boobs" could be. So we wait to see what it is she means, but it's likely to be similar to TStar's version, because as Snake said, what else could it be.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 11, 2013, 12:09:10 am
@Rajaa: Jmorphman has repeatedly claimed that all stereotypes are harmful. I have been claiming that only harmful stereotypes are harmful. The cat example was not the only one I used, and that difference was exactly what I was getting at.
Quote
Who told her to be a woman? She needs to be raped for being a woman! It's her fault! This is how some rapists think. Others want to rape and kill women because women represent weakness, or because their screams of pain are so sexy. Tons of reason for rape, but there's a huge problem when rape is mostly done by men who desire women victims. I can't see how anyone could say there isn't a problem and that a game that incorporates rape as a sort of casual existence is not a product of the aforementioned problem.
This is the ridiculous part. How are insane people relevant? At all.
And you're still missing my point. My point is that you're bringing in stereotypes that are not attributes of negative concepts such as misogyny, racism, or homophobia. We're having a discussion about those stereotypes of games and women that contribute to the oppression and otherwise hindered lives of women in our time. Cats and stereotypes (facts) about the biology of women compared to men have little to do with any of that.
Facts are not stereotypes. Jmorphman is right.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 12:11:11 am
Facts can be stereotypes. Positive stereotypes exist. If Jmorphman was not talking about all stereotypes, he should not have said things like 'stereotypes are by definition harmful'.
I am not contributing to a discussion about gender stereotypes, I am, specifically, taking Jmorphman to task for a set of incorrect statements. Negative, harmful stereotypes are obviously very harmful indeed, but it is wrong to claim that every stereotype is negative and harmful.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 11, 2013, 12:13:27 am
That's just wrong. Facts aren't stereotypes, but stereotypes can be facts - or based on often observable facts. That's how stereotypes are born (or one of the ways they're born at least).
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 12:15:35 am
^
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 11, 2013, 12:16:59 am
Facts can be stereotypes. Positive stereotypes exist. If Jmorphman was not talking about all stereotypes, he should not have said things like 'stereotypes are by definition harmful'.
I am not contributing to a discussion about gender stereotypes, I am, specifically, taking Jmorphman to task for a set of incorrect statements. Negative, harmful stereotypes are obviously very harmful indeed, but it is wrong to claim that every stereotype is negative and harmful.
No. Facts and stereotypes are two different words because they are two different things. Facts are not synonymous to stereotypes. Stereotypes will always become harmful because a stereotype is a generalization attributed to a large number of people and isn't necessarily always true. If I stereotype all Asians being smart, then that becomes harmful to people who are not Asian, because now Asians get more important jobs. Stereotypes are not good, and something becomes a stereotype when a large group of people adapt it as supposed common knowledge. Stereotypes are social, facts can range from anything from biology to astronomy.
A stereotype about something factual is a fact, not a stereotype. This isn't hard to understand.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 12:20:17 am
They are two different words, and are not synonymous, but that doesn't prevent some stereotypes from being facts, and some facts from being stereotypes. Sometimes those generations are true, like you said, and the truth isn't harmful. If there is some truth to the stereotype of Asians being smart, then you can safely assume that your Asian friend is smart, and you're fairly likely to be correct! It only becomes a problem if, like you said, you assume that not being a 'stereotypical Asian' is a bad thing, or if you assume that all other people are NOT smart. That's not stereotyping, that's just stupidity.
Women are stereotypically less muscular than men. There is nothing wrong with being a female bodybuilder or a wimpy dude!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 11, 2013, 12:23:18 am
You can never safely assume a stereotype, that's why they are stereotypes, and that's why they are harmful; that's also why they aren't facts, because facts are always true. =/
I'm gonna stop, because I'm not gonna get into an argument with you about something this silly.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 12:24:26 am
So you don't think men are usually more muscular than women?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 11, 2013, 12:26:57 am
It doesn't matter what I think. I have given you thorough explanations of why you are wrong, so like I said, I am done with this part of the thread.
Enjoy your stereotypes!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on March 11, 2013, 12:27:30 am
WOW been reading this thread for awhile today.
hmmm I don't see her having overall point. if the women are sexy with hot bodies and big breasts wether heroines/villainess roles ....she she screams foul play against women. if the women wether heroines/villainess roles are ugly as a mud duck from mars she still gonna call foul play against women
there seems to be no point to be valid if you are going to complain no matter what role , clothing, personality trait and physical look they have.
the only thing i see so far as a realism to what she is doing....asking for money to do something anyone can do without asking for money. IDK. lmao.
For me , i don't try to bring many real world ethics into my fantasy world of gaming, anime , toons and comics. The only time i would probably have a serious problem with it is if they cross a certain line that seriously demeans on purpose and is total negativity to be used in RL terms.
Saving a princess or female has been around for ages long before video games or tv. It was told in fairy tales/bedtime stories and books to children by their parents. It was always the girl dream to be save by a prince or honorable strong handsome man and the young boy to dream to be the hero. The role of a strong woman has been present in some of them too. In Marvel/dc/image and whatever comics almost all the men are muscular of various degrees and the women are sexy and alot sporting c to d cups. lol. It is fantasy. No matter how well something is done, told and created wether for personal enjoyment for the reader or listener or viewer, someone is going to find something to objectify it with. Its endless.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 12:31:27 am
It doesn't matter what I think. I have given you thorough explanations of why you are wrong, so like I said, I am done with this part of the thread.
Enjoy your stereotypes!
And I explained why they are all wrong, but hey, run away rather than admit you're wrong, that's cool :)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 11, 2013, 12:35:33 am
That's not a really cool way to respond. I'm not running away, I'm just ending a discussion that may not come to an end soon if it is continued. Have some decency.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 11, 2013, 12:36:32 am
I think as a moderately attractive young woman, she's capitalizing on the same points she's railing against by appealing to a mostly male under 30 target demographic with a social life eating habit. If her picture had instead been of an unkempt overweight man in his early 40's with a long, renowned and informed video game history, how much money do you think he would have gotten for the same project? I think she's working everyone who gave her a dime or plugs her article, and now she's loaded, because she successfully stereotyped her target demographic. Cynical, maybe, but to me it honestly seems like what's going on.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 12:38:06 am
That's not a really cool way to respond. I'm not running away, I'm just ending a discussion that may not come to an end soon if it is continued. Have some decency.
Why should I have any decency when all anyone has done in this entire topic is twist their own words to avoid admitting they're wrong?
I'm not the one who needs decency here. It's kind of sickening.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on March 11, 2013, 12:41:21 am
I think as a moderately attractive young woman, she's capitalizing on the same points she's railing against by appealing to a mostly male under 30 target demographic with a social life eating habit. If her picture had instead been of an unkempt overweight man in his early 40's with a long, renowned and informed video game history, how much money do you think he would have gotten for the same project? I think she's working everyone who gave her a dime or plugs her article, and now she's loaded, because she successfully stereotyped her target demographic. Cynical, maybe, but to me it honestly seems like what's going on.
thats a good one. lol ., be even funnier if the woman in the pic isnt even her... i got 60 bucks says its her cousin. lol
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 11, 2013, 12:42:20 am
I think as a moderately attractive young woman, she's capitalizing on the same points she's railing against by appealing to a mostly male under 30 target demographic with a social life eating habit. If her picture had instead been of an unkempt overweight man in his early 40's with a long, renowned and informed video game history, how much money do you think he would have gotten for the same project? I think she's working everyone who gave her a dime or plugs her article, and now she's loaded, because she successfully stereotyped her target demographic. Cynical, maybe, but to me it honestly seems like what's going on.
thats a good one. lol ., be even funnier if the woman in the pic isnt even her... i got 60 bucks says its her cousin. lol
Dude, I was thinking the same thing. I ain't takin that bet. ;) Posted: March 11, 2013, 12:45:44 am For a hilarious breakdown on the necessity of stereotyping click the Monkeysphere link in my signature. Very relevant.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Killer Kong on March 11, 2013, 01:40:22 am
'It doesn't matter that this wasn't connected to the game, it's all the gaming industry's fault, because something unrelated to the gaming industry is a clear indication of lots of problems that I will provide no other indication of but will continue to insist exist in the absence of valid data points.'
Don't try to talk about decency when you yourself can't follow your own little "rules." Geez, it's like you're incapable of discussion with people who disagree with you without resorting to things like this, and no I don't care how many pages ago this was, still your words.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 01:41:29 am
When people behave reprehensibly, I tell them to go fuck themselves. I hope you do the same.
It's the decent thing to do.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Killer Kong on March 11, 2013, 01:42:22 am
No, unfortunately, I don't. Because I want to be taken seriously in my debates, and I ESPECIALLY don't try and play victim to being "attacked" after making a goddamn statement like that either. Hope you don-....oh.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 01:43:50 am
Huh?
I do not believe I have ever played the victim in my entire life.
I like being taken seriously in debates, too, but only when the opposing side is interested in having an honest discussion. When they're being duplicitous, scorn seems to me to be a pretty appropriate response.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 11, 2013, 01:45:59 am
EDIT: Ugh is it just me or am I starting to sound like hjk. Fuck it I'm out.
Yes you are, are you two drinking buddies? The echoes are just ASTOUNDING. Here I'll use two small words that represent the majority poll in this thread : Leave now.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 01:50:12 am
If you're going to be so absurd as to take issue with my word choice, because I prefer not to say things like 'when people act like assholes' or 'when they're being lying manipulative fuckbags', do you really think I'm not going to respond?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Killer Kong on March 11, 2013, 01:51:29 am
Nah, I won't make you. Maybe I'd prefer you to humiliate yourself in this thread to the point where you'll just leave yourself when you realize you're HJK's brother-in-law.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 11, 2013, 01:51:43 am
If you're going to be so absurd as to take issue with my word choice, because I prefer not to say things like 'when people act like assholes' or 'when they're being lying manipulative fuckbags', do you really think I'm not going to respond?
Of course you're gonna respond, that's natural. Acting like a cranky douchebag isn't, though.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 01:53:41 am
It seems a pretty natural response to taking issue with me trying to sound civilized instead of swearing constantly.
I'm kind of dumbfounded here. How would you like me to speak? Is there a mode of vocabulary which won't elicit more snark?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 11, 2013, 01:56:41 am
I'm kind of dumbfounded here. How would you like me to speak? Is there a mode of vocabulary which won't elicit more snark?
Maybe try not throwing out insults randomly while also trying to avoid complaining about being victimized. The specific words themselves are not the issue.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Killer Kong on March 11, 2013, 01:56:49 am
It's all common courtesy, really. Telling somebody to go fuck themselves is going to leave a REALLY bad impression, both externally and internally, especially when it was sort of out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 02:05:53 am
You were arguing in a way that I found objectionable. I challenged you on it. People are now challenging me because they found the way I challenged you objectionable. This is how human behaviour works and I certainly don't have a problem with any of it. I don't know why you keep using the word 'victim', you certainly didn't attack me. Behaviour doesn't have to be directed at a person for them to take issue it. That one comment Killer Kong brought up was because you were attacking me instead of addressing my argument, which I'm pretty sure I never did. I don't really know what you want from me here.
@Killer Kong: It wasn't 'out of nowhere'. If you don't see why I said what I said, I don't think any amount of explaining on my part is going to make you. I'm courteous to people who are being courteous, and arguing as unethically as that sure as hell doesn't meet my definition of the word.
I'm not telling you to go fuck yourself, am I?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 11, 2013, 02:06:44 am
That's not a really cool way to respond. I'm not running away, I'm just ending a discussion that may not come to an end soon if it is continued. Have some decency.
Why should I have any decency when all anyone has done in this entire topic is twist their own words to avoid admitting they're wrong?
I'm not the one who needs decency here. It's kind of sickening.
You have demonstrated that you have taken things to a personal level when you started telling people to fuck themselves; I politely told you that I have decided to discontinue my participation about the definition of a word, and you told I me I was running away, as if to try to bait me back or make yourself look superior.
In arguments, ideas and stuff are rolled around and people even sometimes change their positions, if you're not prepared for the twists and turns of arguments to the point at which you need to tell people to fuck themselves, then I think maybe you should not partake in arguments about extremely sensitive subjects such as this one of feminism.
Yes, you should have some decency. Even if other people's arguments make you angry or you can't take that someone's position is in constant flux, that is still no excuse to omit decency.
thats a good one. lol ., be even funnier if the woman in the pic isnt even her... i got 60 bucks says its her cousin. lol
That's wildly misinformed. She is a well known blogger (apparently) about these sorts of things.
Pretty sure it was a joke.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 02:17:41 am
@Rajaa: I think maybe you should try not telling me what to do. It had nothing to do with 'the twists and turns of arguments' or 'changing positions', it was because he was clinging to a blatantly fraudulent and contradictory position despite the problems with it being spelled out repeatedly. That's quite reprehensible to me. You're welcome to disagree.
Quote
'It doesn't matter that this wasn't connected to the game, it's all the gaming industry's fault, because something unrelated to the gaming industry is a clear indication of lots of problems that I will provide no other indication of but will continue to insist exist in the absence of valid data points.'
When people argue like this, regardless of the subject, they should go fuck themselves. I'm quite happy with this statement. Using one thing to prove a point regarding a completely different thing is bullshit on every level. If I remember correctly, he provided valid data points in the very next post, and all was well.
@Jmorphman: "Did I say that? No. Are you ignoring my valid point and trying to attack me instead? Yes."
I said this at one point; Killer Kong called me on it after I said I didn't victimize myself. That's what I was referring to.
You quoted my duplicitous/reprehensible post and acted like it was objectionable without explaining why. I don't have a better word for that than 'attack'; it's not an argument because there wasn't any argument there. I tried to get you to explain what the objection was so that we could have an argument instead.
I think I might be using the word 'attack' in a different way than other people are or something. I'm not really sure what the miscommunication here is. Sorry. I'm trying. :|
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 11, 2013, 02:21:26 am
Dude, you clearly love to argue. You can argue with me about this sentence if you want :)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 02:22:30 am
I do! :D
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 11, 2013, 02:23:05 am
You quoted my duplicitous/reprehensible post and acted like it was objectionable without explaining why. I don't have a better word for that than 'attack'; it's not an argument because there wasn't any argument there.
I've been referring to that one post of yours from yesterday, not anything recent, when talking about the victim thing.
Also, the duplicitous/reprehensible thing? Those are attacks on me, which I find to be absolutely ridiculous, overblown, and totally disconnected from reality. Nothing more.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 11, 2013, 02:26:16 am
Nothing like a little practice. ;) The thrill / rush can be entertaining, and sometimes really interesting observations come from it. Fighting on a fighting game forum, who'd have guessed it. Maybe there should be a debate thread somewhere.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on March 11, 2013, 02:29:16 am
@ Rajaa.. it was never meant to be taken serious. lol plus i dont know anything about her personally just as i dont know if that pic is actually her. Was just a simple joke between me and RMH, thats all. lol .
Now as for her standpoint on issues such as this , she tries to make her point and the validity is of those who share the same logic as she does with the material she presents to make her thoughts known on the subject matter. I see people here agree and disagree on some to alot of her viewpoints. there are tons of these that have been done long ago so to me this is nothing new , other than i see her wanting to get paid for doing it. She may not be making anyone submit money to her but i personally do not see any kind of way sending her money can show us any different in opinions as people are still already doing even if they don't see her views on video or blog. I see a bunch of games in a screenshot that she may have bought with the money....or not. There are people who do this same thing and not need a dime to do it. So i just really wanna know whats the money actually for in this study of hers? If she tells me its to buy games so she can give a viewpoint on them then thats ridiculous. I like what RMH said about it. lol
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 02:32:50 am
Okay, apologies in advance if I'm talking about the wrong thing, but misrepresenting my point in an attempt to make me look unintelligent, that counts as an attack to me, and I have no problem calling people on things like that to make them stop doing it. If that's not what you were trying to do when I said you were attacking me, my apologies, but it seemed like it at the time.
'Victim' doesn't really seem appropriate, to me that would be more like if I was going 'Oh no! The big bad Jmorphman is attacking me and calling me names and I refuse to argue with him any more!'. My intent was a lot closer to 'Hey, don't do that, let's get back on track and argue properly!' than 'You're a horrible horrible man! :('
And, uh, I'm sorry other people brought up a past comment of mine that I had to justify? I think what you said was go-fuck-yourself-worthy, I stand by that. I don't think anything else I've ever seen you say is, and you generally seem like a decent guy. You said one thing I found reprehensible, and behaved in a way I found duplicitous for a couple of hours at most. I don't think either of those qualities generally apply to you as a person at all. I've dropped this a few times now but other people keep bringing it back up. *shrug*
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 11, 2013, 02:34:54 am
If that's not what you were trying to do when I said you were attacking me, my apologies, but it seemed like it at the time.
I assure you that that was not my intent.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 02:35:45 am
Cool. Apologies for that then. *thumbs up*
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on March 11, 2013, 02:46:28 am
yeah, just stop arguing with raja and jmm about stereotypes; it seems like Iced, byakko, you and me agree that stereotypes are not all negative and base that fact in the dictionary, while raja and jmm base their opinion on being minorities living ni the usa; or you can go fuck orochigill yourself.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 02:47:22 am
Don't worry, even I realize I'm beating a dead horse eventually.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 11, 2013, 02:47:43 am
:hump: ^ Posted: March 11, 2013, 02:48:19 am (Originally meant for the GFYS comment 2 above, but that 'beating' a dead horse ninja just cranked it up to Caligula.)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 02:53:48 am
When they're being duplicitous, scorn seems to me to be a pretty appropriate response.
Are you for real? Holy fuckballs. :|
I'm sorry, would you rather I use smaller words?
So I just realized how incredibly, incredibly offensive this must have sounded to everyone who wasn't me and I feel the need to publicly apologize. I thought he was mocking my word choice, not taking issue with me directing those words at him, it must have seemed like I was calling him a moron and offering to repeat myself. Fuck wow no I actually thought he wanted me to talk in a less condescending polysyllabic manner and that is why I said that.
Wow. I am not that big an asshole. Wow.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 11, 2013, 03:07:56 am
but that 'beating' a dead horse ninja just cranked it up to Caligula.
Woah woah woah. You gotta be more careful when dropping Caligula bomb, remember, he's the guy who ate a fetus!* Save it for an occasion that deserves it! (http://www.kcet.org/shows/i_claudius/assets/images/john-hurt-caligula-in-drag.jpg)
Spoiler: *(click to see content)
ok fine it probably didn't actually happen, because the source for that is basically a smear campaign against all the old emperors of Rome
and despite being based on those sources, I, Claudius is still the fucking best
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 11, 2013, 03:17:56 am
HA! Yeah this is true JMM that movie does deserve better then humping a dead horse instead of beating it. A truly brilliant piece of cinema ;D It was also an Aqua Teen reference tho:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 11, 2013, 03:18:33 am
HA! Yeah this is true JMM that movie does deserve a better then humping a dead horse instead of beating it. A truly brilliant piece of cinema ;D
That's not a movie, it's a miniseries! >:[
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: TempesT on March 11, 2013, 03:35:26 am
Lara Croft getting raped? BITCH HAD IT COMEING ;D :twisted:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 11, 2013, 03:41:40 am
Honestly, I haven't had cable or anything like it in over a decade. I thought you were talking about the '79 movie, which is Severely fucked in so many ways.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 11, 2013, 03:46:02 am
Honestly, I haven't had cable or anything like it in over a decade. I was talking about the '79 movie, which is Severely fucked in so many ways.
The thing I was talking about is older! I, Claudius, the BBC miniseries. It's also not terrible. And it's possibly more fucked up than Caligula the movie?
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Caligula cuts open his pregnant sister (he was the father, also) and eats the baby. All off-screen, but still.
Everybody watch it right now. It's so, so good. You want to see the crazy exploits of Roman emperors? You want to see fantastic acting? You want to see Patrick Stewart, with hair? LOOK NO FURTHER
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 11, 2013, 03:51:45 am
!? Better than the Caligula movie? Patrick Stewart with hair? I gotta check this out. This'll make for some sweet drawing accompaniment.
Spoiler: Found a link to episode 1(click to see content)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 11, 2013, 03:59:22 am
By the way, don't touch the figs.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Hoshi on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 am
As a result of the unexpected extra Kickstarter funding I can now commit full-time to Feminist Frequency and to this video series which is truly a dream come true for me! I can now also hire my producer full-time for this project. Plus we are in the process of bringing another writer/researcher on board part-time. So far I’ve chosen to keep my small crew out of the limelight to try and shield them from any potential harassment. When I feel it is safe and appropriate to introduce them I will.
i'd rather wait until her video series is complete before complaining that she's wasting other people's money.
Well, back to not caring then.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 11, 2013, 07:21:56 am
Uh, everyone here does. And Rajaa and JMM are both absolutely horrible at it.
You're so absolutely horrible at arguing that when you can't take being incoherent and misunderstood because you can't make any sense, you literally try to fight people over the internet in real life by arranging fight-dates in a place near your home. Stop being hurt because you always fail when trying to argue with someone who is clearly of superior arguing skills, you angry, angry, jerk.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 07:24:41 am
...Wait, that's a thing?
Wow.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on March 11, 2013, 10:52:45 am
Wow I belive that I never see so much posts in so short Time in this Forum. =D
I have seen her first vid, and I will look at the next vids too, but it's nothing Special, other people had make vids about sterotypes before, it's nothing Special, nothing that I don't have seen before, and I don't think this vid or the others they will come will be worth all the Money all her Fans payed on kickstarter.
Btw. the Enemy of all Feminists, TheAmazingAtheist has something to say about this. xD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfkS9YS_T0k
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 11, 2013, 01:44:01 pm
You're so absolutely horrible at arguing that when you can't take being incoherent and misunderstood because you can't make any sense, you literally try to fight people over the internet in real life by arranging fight-dates in a place near your home. Stop being hurt because you always fail when trying to argue with someone who is clearly of superior arguing skills, you angry, angry, jerk.
Point in case.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 11, 2013, 02:01:02 pm
Actually, you don't have any "case in point." All you did was rudely and randomly mention me in a comment, and got responded to in the same manner. Your posts are filled with a bunch of words and rarely produce anything besides an argument about the meaning of a sentence, a sentence of which you try to twist and alter, making yourself seem even more incoherent than you naturally are.
Many people have had long wall of texts arguments with you and all you do is makes posts and edit them hours later, adding more useless information, trying to clarify yourself, even though you are incapable of doing so. In arguments, all you do is try to convince someone that they're misunderstanding you, and while, yes, you are misunderstood, but that is mostly because you are incapable of making any sense.
If I'm so horrible at arguing and you can't stand it so much that you have to bring it up every chance you get, then it's probably better that you never reply to my posts ever again, because you're always the one who initiates something with me. If it hurts you so much, if you can't take the fact that I argue better than you so much that you must try to take potshots at every chance you get to try to gain some sort of upper-hand in who knows what, then never reply to my posts. This is not hard. This will save you from massive headaches and it will relieve you of those urges you have to come to NY and punch me in my face.
You're not cool and you don't have any points besides ones that involve you thinking it's everyone else's fault for your incoherence coupled with aggressiveness (a bad combination).
Take a chill pill and relax. There's no need for you to have a vendetta against me, I guarantee you that I don't think about you as much as you think about me, so your efforts are pretty much wasted.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 11, 2013, 02:17:27 pm
Quote
you can't stand it so much that you have to bring it up every chance you get
I only did it this one time here though.
Quote
and edit them hours later
Lie. Like the rest of your angry outburst.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 11, 2013, 02:21:52 pm
You have done it multiply times within this month and last month alone. If my arguing bothers you so much, leave me alone. Don't reply to me. You even tried earlier in this thread and was ignored, so of course you made sure to do it again. Stop it. Leave me alone. I don't like arguing with you., you don't like arguing with me, so don't reply to me. Don't mention me in public forums where I am likely to dwell, especially not to insult me.
This is your fault because you are literally always the one to attack me. If you stop, this will stop.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 11, 2013, 02:39:50 pm
Btw. the Enemy of all Feminists, TheAmazingAtheist has something to say about this. xD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfkS9YS_T0k
I'm absolutely terrified to click that link. :(
I clicked it, watched it, and then proceeded to watching his other videos. I mostly enjoyed them, kicking aside some things I think he could do without. =p
And, yeah, it was polite.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 11, 2013, 03:13:40 pm
is someone going to gather a description of the tropes being "analysed"? Because if no one else is, i might do it later on, shouldnt be hard to search them up and find some "common" examples of women affected by those tropes.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 11, 2013, 03:50:18 pm
I vote formal debate thread. Fun fun fun.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 11, 2013, 04:25:10 pm
I filled in those i can recognize.
Damsel in Distress - Video #1 The woman is just a plot excuse for someone to be saved, she is seen as a reward for the players that finish the game common examples: krystal , toadstool, zelda The Fighting F#@k Toy - Video #2 Speaks for itself, its a hot woman that can kick yer ass. common examples: Juri han, the dead or alive cast, kitana mileena and jade, sonya blade, cammy I-no, Tira, Morrigan, Felicia mai shiranui The Sexy Sidekick - Video #3 .You got a hot biscuit of a companion! Even tho she might be killing the zombies or serving as comic relief , she is still one sexy thing! Common examples: Coco bandicoot?Ellie? That one Sniper in Fallout new vegas? Yorda in Ico? Jill in resident evil? The Sexy Villainess - Video #4 Villains tend to be more sexually assertive, dress skimpier and imply that they are into sex! Oh my!
examples: Poison ivy, Harley Quinn , Morrigan Yunalesca, I-no, Tira, Etna, Rouge the bat,
Background Decoration - Video #5 I have no idea, im guessing any racing game with the girl holding the racecard?
Voodoo Priestess/Tribal Sorceress - Video #6 how is this even a trope. common examples : Any witches, far cry had that one woman with the sex scene.The witches from the discworld game, the witches in the monkey island games. doesnt this sortof overlaps both with the sexy villain and the ugly villain? Women as Reward - Video #7 isnt this just damsel in distress? Maybe its more specific for stuff like Leisure suit larry where you get "the women" as a reward? Maybe shes going for dating simulators here? That would be incredibly dumb.
Mrs. Male Character - Video #8 Someone who is defined only by their husbands. or commonly, a woman that could be replaced by a man doing the same thing and the story would be the same! This is bad! Mrs Pacman Unattractive Equals Evil - Video #9 Oh sure, ugly women cant be heroes, they have to be evil! PERSECUTION common example: any type of witches and ugly warthy villains Man with Boobs - Video #10 The woman could be replaced by a man doing the same thingsand the story would be the same, this is bad! common examples: Chell, Tyris, Chunli, Samus, Jill of the Jungle, Blaze, miss pacman, female shepard. Athena
Positive Female Characters! - Video #11 this wasnt on the original plan, she added this as a reward for getting the money
Top 10 Most Common Defenses of Sexism in Games - Video #12 -men also get sexualized- power fantasy vs sex fantasy -pretty vilains are a thing- they are not women so they are not relevant -Ugly villains are a thing . they are nto women so they are not relevant -sex doesnt define males either- women are more important and need to be defined by sex whenever they show up.
Title: So this is what you guys do on the weekend.
Post by: Bastard Walt on March 11, 2013, 04:32:02 pm
Feminist study of games
I can't believe what I just read. Over 200 posts of 5 people discussing basic entry-level facts, dictionary definitions, and misunderstandings. Meanwhile, the matter at hand was barely scratched on the surface. I expected a lot more.Son, I am disappoint.
Rating: 3 out of 10
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on March 11, 2013, 04:41:10 pm
well,w who woul waste the time watching the video after the first guys who watched it posted their impressions ?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 11, 2013, 04:54:45 pm
Women as Reward - Video #7 isnt this just damsel in distress? Maybe its more specific for stuff like Leisure suit larry where you get "the women" as a reward? Maybe shes going for dating simulators here? That would be incredibly dumb.
I doubt it's just dating simulators. Perhaps it's referring to something like "you win some part of the game, get to oogle women as reward?" I have no idea.
Mrs. Male Character - Video #8 Someone who is defined only by their husbands.
I sincerely doubt that's what this is. I thought it would be that Samus thing (not "female" enough), but then there's man with boobs below, so who knows.
Mrs Pacman Unattractive Equals Evil - Video #9 Oh sure, ugly women cant be heroes, they have to be evil! PERSECUTION
This is true of both genders. Mostly. Oooh, I know, Dead Rising, I think I remember the developers saying they made Frank not very attractive to make him an everyman or something... what were we talking about?
might want to cut down on the obnoxiousness though
Man with Boobs - Video #10 The woman could be replaced by a man doing the same thingsand the story would be the same, this is bad! common examples: Chell, Tyris, Chunli, Samus, Jill of the Jungle, Blaze, miss pacman, female shepard. Athena
These are all random, mostly unfitting examples. :|
of that list, I could see only Chell and Samus really fitting the trope (and maybe Jill of the Jungle and Miss Pac-Man too), as their genders aren't really relevant to the game(s). Which isn't really a bad thing, I think. I guess maybe if Chell was a man, the fat jokes wouldn't mean the same thing? Tyris and Blaze could also fit, I guess, because they aren't given enough characterization. But Tyris did have that terrible Golden Axe: Beast Rider game all to herself, so maybe something popped up in there. Really, Samus and Chell are the go-to examples here, the rest are debatable.
The rest of the list are all clearly female, and their gender informs their character. Chun-Li is pretty girly in her winquotes, femShep's gender informs her character, and Athena... there are like, three of them. Goddess Athena depends on being a female because of Athena the Greek Goddess, Psycho Soldier/KoF Athena depends on being female because she's a reincarnation of Goddess Athena (plus, she is clearly characterized as female), and that one PSX game probably uses that version of Athena's gender some way.
Top 10 Most Common Defenses of Sexism in Games - Video #12 -men also get sexualized- power fantasy vs sex fantasy
Men are nowhere near as sexualized as females.
And having big muscles is not remotely the same thing.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 11, 2013, 05:12:56 pm
Jill is usually criticized for needing a big man to back her up. So shes likely going to be in "sidekick"
The only games with oogling women as rewards were those old old old arcade games where you had to uncover sexy pics while avoiding monsters. Maybe dead or alive volleyball?
Fem shep and chunli are not defined by their gender in anything other than being curvy. femshep is specially designed so that she could be replaced with a male ( male shep ) . Athena I referred to the original athena platformer. where it made no diference if she was a man or not. ( like it made no difference if it was Mario or Maria , platforming games, how do they work )
on the top 10 excuses for sexism i used actual excuses for sexism and why they werent valid. men also get sexualized- is the excuse, Power fantasy vs sex fantasy is why it isnt valid . A woman being attractive and a male having muscles isnt the same thing because one is a power fantasy and one is a sex fantasy. Somehow you are agreeing with me while criticizing me? In before you go with"it was a joke".
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 11, 2013, 05:23:28 pm
The only games with oogling women as rewards were those old old old arcade games where you had to uncover sexy pics while avoiding monsters. Maybe dead or alive volleyball?
Fem shep and chunli are not defined by their gender in anything other than being curvy. femshep is specially designed so that she could be replaced with a male ( male shep ) .
I know femShep is designed to be swapped out with maleShep, but I'm trying to say that the player determines femShep's actions and personality, so you can have a feminine femShep or masculine or whatever. RPG characters are probably not the best case studies.
A woman being attractive and a male having muscles isnt the same thing because one is a power fantasy and one is a sex fantasy. Somehow you are agreeing with me while criticisizing me?
We had that discussion before. Muscular men are "objectified" in the same way sexy women are "sexualized".
Men are muscly so that the player can imagine being them, women are sexualized so that the player can imagine screwing them. Its not the same thing really. Both are "perfect" visions of the human body, but the females are usually oversexualized and not overly perfect. This isnt true ,ofcourse, for all games, but its a common thing that people complain that the males are "perfect" too while ignoring that they are often designed so that the player wants to be them. Its a common thing in comics as well. None of it really excuses being sexist, just because your males are perfect as well it doesnt mean that the pornstar bodied females are more "ok".
JayMorph, calm down with all the "calm downs" and "you are being obnoxious" . You are having difficulty understanding stuff, you have misunderstood titiln a ton of times recently, and you are aiming to misunderstand me again, you were being critical of me even tho i was obviously saying the same thing you were saying. Since i wasnt really posting anything confusing I dont even know how that happened. yet you keep getting all smart and snarky.
About Jill, I am obviously not talking about santtu but about the very sites where I went to get those tropes. In the same vein they say morrigan is hot and evil even tho shes an heroine. Those people dont really care about those games except for the basic information they gather from there.
About Jill, I am obviously not talking about santtu but about the very sites where I went to get those tropes. In the same vein they say morrigan is hot and evil even tho shes an heroine. Those people dont really care about those games except for the basic information they gather from there.
Well they're dumb then!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 11, 2013, 08:36:17 pm
I am way too lazy to actually quote the things I am responding to, but two points
- Kratos was intentionally designed to be unattractive as well. - In the original Unreal, you play as a female, though this is never made apparent anywhere unless you dig into the options menu or carefully inspect the cover.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 11, 2013, 11:42:55 pm
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 11, 2013, 11:46:52 pm
oh sweet Jesus :pwn:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: blackstar on March 12, 2013, 12:38:46 am
Why couldn't she handle the fact that Mario is a man? If that fact would hinder the game unplayable that's too bad and , she's 3 years old and would've gotten over it. Hacking a game is just needless sheltering.
Turning Samus into a guy in responce is kinda funny I admit but the guy's comment of 'brainwashing his daughter into becoming a feminist' made me facepalm and destroyed the point he was trying to make.
EDIT: On reflection, after reading the article itself I think it was just a joke :D
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 12, 2013, 12:45:02 am
I don't think there's anything wrong with a girl asking why you can't play as a girl. That's different from asking why you're playing as a man INSTEAD of a girl. Replacing a sprite is just a hell of a lot easier than adding a choice.
It would be nice if more games allowed you to customize the protagonist like that.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 01:05:55 am
Don't persecute my rights to persecute dumb people. What are you, some kind of personist?
Men's rights are important. by claiming activists of any men's rights are insane you are being a bad person! >:C
Also jill will still be implied to need men to do anything and you just know that "fighting fucktoy" cant give anything good.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 12, 2013, 02:03:17 am
Just in case we aren't all being sarcastic, lots of people supporting lots of good-on-the-surface causes do so in insane ways. We don't need to support every supporter of a cause to support a cause. And focusing for rights for one specific group is in general a bad idea and brings out the crazies. The only reason anyone should be treated worse than other people is because other people have proven themselves to be superior to that person through their actions (ex. some people getting raises and some people not).
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 02:11:06 am
I'm actually completely serious about men's rights activists. They're literally fucking insane.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 02:21:09 am
Dont be ridiculous, you cant just put everyone under a tag and call it a day. Specially after going so long complaining about stereotypes being harmful.
There are tons of men's rights activists that make sense, specially in places where they fight so that the parents in case of divorce keep their rights over their children. That you are only focusing on the internet kind of activists is your problem.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 02:24:33 am
There are tons of men's rights activists that make sense, specially in places where they fight so that the parents in case of divorce keep their rights over their children. That you are only focusing on the internet kind of activists is your problem.
Of course the divorce thing is a problem, but when someone brings up "men's rights activists" they are almost always referring to the internet kind, the kind that get mad that women don't drop down on their knees and fellate any man they see.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 02:27:55 am
"almost always", not "always" If you want to change stereotyping you should stop using it yourself. There are actual reasons for male rights activists to exist, by stereotyping them into that finite area you are dismissing any of their work, which is actually important.
Yes, even with the other kind around. Feminazis dont make feminism invalid all of a sudden. Cmon!
I didnt thought you were serious, but you are actually being sexist, you do realize that, dont you?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 02:29:53 am
"almost always", not "always" If you want to change stereotyping you should stop using it yourself.
That's why I said "almost always" :pwn:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 02:32:37 am
and since its almost always you should stop saying they are literally fucking insane, and instead say "some of them are literally fucking insane" . otherwise you are implying all of them are and dismissing them completely using as base these other ones.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 02:34:25 am
I think I was pretty obviously referring to the crazy internet kind.
shrugs Posted: March 12, 2013, 02:41:51 am especially given that the picture of that article Titiln posted used "men's rights activists" in the exact same way
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 02:48:18 am
I'm actually completely serious about men's rights activists. They're literally fucking insane.
you werent clear at all here. Like I showed there are actual men's rights activists that are not literally fucking insane and they are hardly ever taken seriously due to anedocte. Since you didnt make any separation i assumed you meant every one of them.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 02:51:08 am
The article didn't make any separation, was that unclear as well? Honest question.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 12, 2013, 02:58:31 am
It did, actually. The article didn't say all of the Men's Rights activists responded, it said "Men's Rights activists responded" as in the people who responded were Men's Rights activists ; the separation is grammatically implicit and obvious. It also specifically names one person, qualified as leader of "a" Men's Rights group.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 12, 2013, 02:59:02 am
the joke article that says "men's rights activists" and then specifically mentions a group and name?
e:f,b
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 03:04:03 am
And so, when I referred to men's rights activists, why would it seem like I was referring to every single possible person who could be conflated with that term? When the article brings up that specific subset. No one was talking about any group other than that subset.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 12, 2013, 03:11:53 am
... You just argued that you were unspecific because the article was unspecific, and now you're arguing that because the article was specific, you were being just as specific by default.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 03:13:19 am
I'm explaining myself poorly, as usual. What I'm trying to say is that the article brought up men's rights activists to mean the internet kind, and that's what I was referring to, and did not have to qualify that because the article took care of that.
And I would argue that if you go and say "men's rights activist" most anywhere on the internet people will take that to mean the crazy internet kind, no qualifications needed.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 12, 2013, 03:16:10 am
I'm actually completely serious about men's rights activists. They're literally fucking insane.
you werent clear at all here. Like I showed there are actual men's rights activists that are not literally fucking insane and they are hardly ever taken seriously due to anedocte. Since you didnt make any separation i assumed you meant every one of them.
who are these enlightened people seriously please tell me you didnt show anything at all yet
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on March 12, 2013, 04:30:59 am
The men who get raped by females then get laughed at by the cops when they try to press charges.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on March 12, 2013, 05:15:52 am
I watched Anita's first video, while I was still scoffing at the sheer fact she really thinks she can point out this issue and be the header of it.
The first video is way too safe to still have it's comments and ratings disabled, and I do gotta agree with the Amazing Atheist(can't believe I just stated it) in that Anita herself has demonstrated the DiD herself right there(although she also did at that conference too). Anita's video literally does nothing in really analyzing DiD as a whole, not it's beginnings, it's cultural and effect on men and women throughout history or even explain how to lessen DiD overall.
Not to mention the utter lack of detail or even knowledge of the things she pointed out(Dinosaur Planet has 3 major rumors on the reason it became Star Fox Adventures AND she forgot the fact that Krystal was not the only lead in that game either...or the fact she literally made a trope AFTER ALREADY STATING WHAT IS A DiD TO HER just to fit Zelda in there. Not to mention all the Miyamoto bashing like he's the only one who did DiD during the 80's and 90's) combined with the safeness of the video just leaves me completely baffled that there are people who state that this was GOOD. I literally did not look that far to search most of that up, she literally did all of that and according to some, even ripped some quotes from Wikipedia...
There is already someone else who is doing this FAR better than Anita and even giving out the things she couldn't... gamesvstropesvswomen It's not perfect, but he's actually giving out more info than Anita damn sure did without twisting facts to her advantage...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 12, 2013, 05:17:14 am
The men who get raped by females then get laughed at by the cops when they try to press charges.
Plus:
The man who got his penis chopped off for filing for divorce and was subsequently laughed at on national TV by a group of supposedly intelligent women and their audiences.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on March 12, 2013, 05:24:40 am
The men who get raped by females then get laughed at by the cops when they try to press charges.
Plus:
The man who got his penis chopped off for filing for divorce and was subsequently laughed at on national TV by a group of supposedly intelligent women and their audiences.
Yeah, I completely agree in that there IS a need for Men's Right activists considering how these days, it's sadly extremely obvious just how badly men are treated or screwed over simply because they are men at this point(Divorce, Alimoney, anything involving the police...)
But apparently, everyone wants to treat the Men's Right Activists like they are all lunatics despite they having the same issues as Feminists at this point(MRA having idiots just like the Feminists do)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: 地獄の花 on March 12, 2013, 07:33:03 am
i'll remember her name, think mentioning her name will give me advantage towards lesbian gamers.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 12, 2013, 07:38:54 am
I know you're joking (as usual), but what kind of advantage would mentioning her name to lesbian gamers give you?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 12, 2013, 09:20:52 am
...I read it and assumed it was 'getting into their pants' but. Lesbians. Now I'm confused!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on March 12, 2013, 09:35:00 am
The Lesbians will think, that he is one of the few guys that deserves to live, and let him win some games instead of beating him over and over again in every game. :eaugh:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 11:28:37 am
The men who get raped by females then get laughed at by the cops when they try to press charges.
Plus:
The man who got his penis chopped off for filing for divorce and was subsequently laughed at on national TV by a group of supposedly intelligent women and their audiences.
Yeah, I completely agree in that there IS a need for Men's Right activists considering how these days, it's sadly extremely obvious just how badly men are treated or screwed over simply because they are men at this point(Divorce, Alimoney, anything involving the police...)
But apparently, everyone wants to treat the Men's Right Activists like they are all lunatics despite they having the same issues as Feminists at this point(MRA having idiots just like the Feminists do)
Plus the men who get their life destroyed by fake rape claims, and the men that lose their kids to the mother even when the mother is a meth head, because courts give preference to women. The idea of male activists being a joke is dangerous.
The people that did those edits are obvious trolls, it would be like classing every gamer as raping autistic shit themselves messes that can only get it up to 2d after watching 4chan trolls trying to attack Anita by claiming they will rape her.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 12, 2013, 11:37:57 am
I'm explaining myself poorly, as usual. What I'm trying to say is that the article brought up men's rights activists to mean the internet kind, and that's what I was referring to, and did not have to qualify that because the article took care of that.
And I would argue that if you go and say "men's rights activist" most anywhere on the internet people will take that to mean the crazy internet kind, no qualifications needed.
I understand that you didn't need to be specific and thought it was obvious who you were talking about in the context of replying to this article, but that's pretty much how stereotypes are made. If you think you don't need to be specific, it becomes the general idea, and anytime anyone talks about Men's Rights activists, people respond "they're insane" because that's the default, even if we're not talking about the Internet trolls type. It's a stereotype. (Born from observable fact, too)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 03:17:04 pm
I understand that you didn't need to be specific and thought it was obvious who you were talking about in the context of replying to this article, but that's pretty much how stereotypes are made. If you think you don't need to be specific, it becomes the general idea, and anytime anyone talks about Men's Rights activists, people respond "they're insane" because that's the default, even if we're not talking about the Internet trolls type. It's a stereotype. (Born from observable fact, too)
I think that one only would need to worry about that if one was labeling MRA's as insane by virtue of their association with that cause, rather than by virtue of their beliefs that all women are evil because they didn't go out with them. It'd be like, I dunno, Westboro Baptist Church vs the rest of Christianity, if the WBC didn't have it's own name.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 03:21:32 pm
..that would be swell if that group wasnt named PACMEN and you hadnt started complaining about MRA in general.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 03:27:05 pm
Yes clearly I was talking about all MRA, obviously. That's why I keep saying that I was labeling all of them.
jesus fucking christ
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 03:49:57 pm
There is nothing wrong with going "Oh i guess i was in the wrong and could have explained myself better and it looked like i was stereotyping" instead of going in circles about how you were obviously correct and dont know how people could have taken that meaning, which just leads to people explaining how they could have done it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 03:54:18 pm
I already said that I have been explaining myself poorly, and that I got something wrong. But don't worry, I'm sure you are never in the wrong, and you never explain yourself really poorly, and you never argue in circles because you can't let yourself be wrong about anything, and your shit don't stink.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 12, 2013, 06:23:46 pm
Actually, no, you never said you got anything wrong, you did exactly what he said you did, just like you did with me before.
Look back in this topic and you will find me admitting I was wrong about a shitload of things. Not all of us do verbal backflips instead of admitting a fuckup.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 06:25:24 pm
That was my mistake, was just looking at the headline.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 12, 2013, 06:25:57 pm
Okay clearly I should read the topic and be awake before being a condescending fuck in the future.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 07:05:49 pm
Im pretty sure i can be wrong about stuff, Ive placed my foot in my mouth quite a few times. ( I did give hosting space to vozilla, i also had an habit of editing profiles which ive recognized was wrong, I even attempted working with kfm, i used to entertain longass arguments with hjk and i still think i was needlessly kind of a jerk with moolambo )
You dont have to keep arguing about how the thing where you were wrong wasnt all that wrong because of reasons, that just makes it seem like you are trying to justify that you were never wrong. It has happened with several titiln posts, a lot of this thread and even those nwsf posts a while ago . If you keep trying to defend how you werent actually all that wrong, people will assume you still think you werent wrong. Yes, even if you have said that you werent clear before. It will make you sound as if you are not convinced. It will just keep going in circles. I knew you said you werent clear before, but i kept explaining it because you kept giving excuses why you didnt need to be clear or why you were obviously doing something else.
And more importantly: Stop sniffing my shit, god. Get a hobbie that doesnt involve my excrements.
Walt, I kinda expected more input from you, you complained no one scratched the surface but you barely patted at it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: 地獄の花 on March 12, 2013, 09:13:03 pm
I know you're joking (as usual), but what kind of advantage would mentioning her name to lesbian gamers give you?
i'll be like a male version of daigo fangirls, probably annoy them and challenge them in a couple of tekken ,tekken is really popular here among younger gay gaming community (i'm not joking),remember an angry lesbian is a sloppy lesbian.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 09:26:22 pm
I don't feel like I was wrong. I explained why. Sue me.
Oh so you werent wrong, you were mistaken, that makes everything different. I give up, you have lately been doing ( to rob snakebyte expression) verbal backflips instead of admitting screwups. I am not interested in feeding the cycle anymore. Peace.
Here is an interview on how Anita "beat" the trolls that harassed her http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-07-09-anita-sarkeesian
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 09:44:28 pm
Oh so you werent wrong, you were mistaken, that makes everything different.
That's not what I was talking about, Jesus fuck. Because it's not like you already mentioned the times you thought I was going through "verbal gymnastics", clearly I was referring to the time I was wrong, but decided to change my mind for no reason. OK, that's great. Go off and be willfully ignorant.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 10:02:45 pm
guess you didnt explain yourself properly again, because from that i only took "I am explaining myself again and again because i do not feel im wrong" but like i said, this cycle is pointless.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 10:03:47 pm
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on March 12, 2013, 10:36:36 pm
Years ago when my son was first born ( 3 months old to be exact) i had to go to a Mens type activist support group cause i was being treated very unfairly . I got my son from his mom cause she had done some very very bad thing and landed herself in prison. I went to pick him up and got one suitcase full of stuff that more than half of it was none of the stuff i had been buying him since before and after his birth. No pampers other than what i had what i had bought for him at my own place and clothes were always with her other than a few outfits i kept at my place that i bought as well. I needed some emergency help with getting things for him situated for a time till i got paid a good full check . I was directed to go to a place where they actually helped out with clothes , formula and pampoers. I went with my son with me and signed up..all was well as i picked out some of the new good clothes and items they happily gave me to last for awhile...till 3 women approached me that was there shopping as well and began to fuss me out for being there and this was a place for WOMEN and not for men . after 5 minutes of arguing with them and trying not to be all shouting and getting overly angry cause i had my baby with me one of the staff ladies came over and quickly defused the situation by yelling at them that this was not a place for Women but this is a place for Parents of kids. even tho i am a man i deserve the exact same rights as a woman cause i am a parent and doing my duty as one. and seeking the same help that even she stated alot of women abuse and she kicked them out.
I was given a card to attend a Fathers support group to help with dealing with any issues i was getting concerning me having custody of my son. I went to this group activity and low and behold there was over 100 men in this small room and we had to go to a much bigger room to then get started with the discussions and helps with services to assist fathers who had their kids or were having trouble with courts and agencies because they were men. I found that all these guys were hard working fathers who found themselves in similar situations as myself and were done so badly by not just court system and help agencies ( and nope, none of this is welfare related) and being discriminated by them and and alot of it was by women who handled the cases.
Sorry for the long post and story but i was reading earlier about Mens rights group thing here and some of the thoughts people had on it so i wanted to share something that happened to me.. Mens Right services are not all internet "Support Us , Cause We Have The Penis" groups. There are many of those and some of those have some very jaded people but there are people who feel there are alot of misconduct in the world of how men are treated in situations very unfairly for being men period. Just like i was told 12 years ago by the lady that helped me out in the center that day said in a conversation," Sexism is not a good thing ever and some feminists sometimes can indeed go way too far to make a point and it can hurt the very thing they try to champion".
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 10:39:39 pm
Thanks for sharing Lando. Some people forget that these are actual issues that affect real people, and not just things they see on the internet and that they join in order to be able to say they are doing something.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 10:43:02 pm
Some people forget that these are actual issues that affect real people, and not just things they see on the internet and that they join in order to be able to say they are doing something.
Wow, seriously? Fuck off.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 10:47:20 pm
I am not talking about you, im obviously talking about said "internet men right activists" and "internet feminists" , i even said "join" . I dont even know how you can make that to be about you. You are again, agreeing with me and criticizing me. Get off your high horse.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 10:48:48 pm
Sure sure. Totally not a veiled reference. How stupid do you think I am?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Nomechy on March 12, 2013, 10:49:46 pm
You both are just kinda acting childish now.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 10:55:19 pm
jesus christ man, read the post, im answering lando. you are neither an internet mra or an internet fra, you have nothing to do with it. I have never even said you were a femenist before., that would be proposterous.
edit: maybe you are an activist and got angry because of that post? if thats it, then sorry, that wasnt the intention of my post.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 10:58:24 pm
I know damn well what you meant. Stop insulting my intelligence.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 11:01:10 pm
yeah sure, i went and implied you are trying to join feminist crusades because you are a douchebag trying to feel important , thats completely what i would expect of you and would then accuse you. Thats not crazy at all.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on March 12, 2013, 11:02:43 pm
yeah sure, i went and implied you are trying to join feminist crusades because you are a douchebag trying to feel important
That's clearly what I'm taking issue with, yes. Please, please stop insulting my intelligence.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: TempesT on March 12, 2013, 11:05:19 pm
That ridiculous paranoia. Get off the internet for a bit or something like holy shit.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 12, 2013, 11:07:18 pm
I did no such thing. If you took that from what I said im sorry, but it was not what I intended for anyone to take from there. it was not a veiled reference to you. I can not put it more clearly.
I am literally putting it in extense form, like i already said. I do not think of you that way or would have implied such a thing considering i do not think that way.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Duo Solo on March 12, 2013, 11:28:27 pm
That ridiculous paranoia. Get off the internet for a bit or something like holy shit.
in the words of the american dragon bryan danielson: yes
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on March 13, 2013, 12:36:18 am
I want to say thanx Iced and Jmorph for the response to my post.
I honestly dont think that Iced meant that statement as a direct confrontational smirk towards you Jmorph bro. It was based on my post and he gave it in feedback on an overall spectrum in society , not directed to anyone personally i think. Thats what i got from it.
yeah that situation definitely opened my eyes big time. I didnt think anything like that would ever to me cause i saw no or gave no reason for that to even happen. Its a real world off the internet problem and it should not be taken lightly if happens to you. By either sex. When that happened it wasnt my pride as a man that was hurt, not the case, but it was me being proud to being father and parent that was . So i was happy to join that group and learn alot of things i didn't know that really was going on that was far more deeper in scope than i ever realized. It was a life lesson.
I dont know by what kind of feminists there were, ( only one of them was actually a supposed practioner of feminism from what she told the lady Center Director) but what i do know is there are various kinds of expression and practices of feminism. There is a define word of what it means but women as well practice it in their own way. based on ranges from personal life experiences to down to personal choice and their belief in what it means to them.
I dont know what the woman in the video is seriously aiming tho when it comes to demonstrating her personal thoughts of females represented in video games. The damsel in distress is as old as probably life itself and in video games and stories it is the driving point of it. It would be no different if the roles was reversed in just switching sexes but you have to add in a core personality to the female that can suit her drive to accomplish the goal. making her a quick witted , intelligent , good problem solver that is athletically built ( depending on how the terrain and Physcial requirents of the gameplay is to be ala Tomb raider and such) and has a heroic ,persistant and ready to combat personality to take head on all challenges in front of her while still retaining being sexy and feminine to me is a celebration of being in the bad ass female lead role , given what kind of role and story plot she is in. The only thing i can see any feminists trying to take pot shots of such is if they are beautiful, busty and what they are wearing. Those last 3 qualities are the artists and developers perception they add into developing a female character of their thoughts...not realism.
If you try to add realism to say Tomb Raider ( Lara Croft to be exact subject) i just can't see ( as well as my friends who are both men and women and have had this same discussion and agreed unanimously)let;s say an average female being as physical doing what she can do flawlessly and has to do to accomplish those feats cause in realistic view most if not all the mountain climbing and wall scaling ( front and back flipping around ) and endurance driven women i know personally who do that stuff and seen are built closer( maybe even a bit thicker too) to lara croft athletically ( just maybe one or 2 minus the extra dd cups lol) train, workout and are just built to do such than an average day to day female who does not do any of those. But its a fantasy , its a game , so it's not made to try to take the average woman and put her in that role.
All those rape and sexual content in seriousness is definitely something that i can say should be a standpoint on a hardcore front. But these are done in novels and movies that women readers as well make famous and are fans of themselves. For some reason i see its more objective in gaming with some feminists. Not all.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Walt on March 13, 2013, 01:03:40 am
Walt, I kinda expected more input from you, you complained no one scratched the surface but you barely patted at it.
As a feminist, I punch female friends on the shoulder, like I do it with my dude friends. Also, I verbally abuse them (only the ones I truly share a bond with) <-- True story, they love feeling like one of the guys
Spoiler: I'm in a good mood right now, I'll humour you(click to see content)
"Sexism" in games from the 80s? lol. That girl should analyze that it was the cultural context of that time, and that permeated everywhere, not only games. It's a laughable approach.
RECENT HISTORY - I read around the time when the ME3 ending shitstorm came about, that a girl talking about the outfits the female characters in that game. "Their outfits give no support to their breasts at all, when these are characters involved in a war-like environment, running for cover, shooting people. The character designers have never heard of the function a Sports Bra serves. I wear even 2 when I go out for a jog".
And you know what? I agree with her. A game that is supposed to be THE space opera of this generation, the best and most mature the gaming industry has to offer, it sure could have been a bit more responsible on that side. But then again, part of the gameplay circled around choices of who you wanted to keep as your sexual companion (even if you could absolutely fuck it up [I think I heard] and end up alone, or choose a guy [not that there's anything wrong with that]) and you had a lot of female choices, that game sure was aimed mostly for their clear demographic - Men who like shooters and RPG elements.
Who are we kidding? This sexism is nothing but proper Market Segmentation. They're trying to appeal to the people who will pay money for that. Getting a "Mature" Rating in a game serves very little other than increasing the use of foul language (I'm looking at you, Revengeance) or BOOBS (God of war) on top of the violence we're already accustomed to playing through. This also goes for Kojima games, and the boob physics in MGS3 (tested also on Rumble Roses), Meryl being the damsel in distress, and so on (Chose these, because I personally consider those to be legitimately good, story-driven games, with fair technical prowess, OR SOMETHING).
But then again, the same could be said for other media, like Movies. Female Boobs and Ass shots are OK and desirable (Hi Kate Winslet in Titanic! Hi Halle Berry getting fucked for 14 minutes straight by Billy Bob Thornton), but should you ever see a penis OMG!!, let alone an erect one because it automatically becomes Rated X pornography.
It's all around us at all times, and people devoting money to the purpose of a woman talking about sexism EXCLUSIVELY in games is something that is beyond me. But I guess different strokes for different folks. I waste money on Car Scent Fresheners, so meh, who am I to tell people what to spend their money on?
Slowly but surely, the handful of developed countries will fight sexism and will achieve gender equality. Meanwhile, us in the rest of the world will continue to be stagnantly fucked overall because of tradition (women are deserve a lesser pay than men), religion (women are inferior to men, and should submit to their husbands), or even probably just naturalism (survival of the fittest, I make you my whore, make money for me).
In summary, HAHAHAHAHA. I wish I could take this enterprise seriously, but I just can't. Sorry.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: SNT on March 13, 2013, 01:22:35 am
This isn't related to FemFreq, but it probably doesn't deserve its own thread.
So I just found an article I missed over Christmas, where Patricia Hernandez from Kotaku draws attention to a blog post from David Gaider (http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/36214913229/the-female-perspective-in-game-development) (Dragon Age 3 lead), where he talks about a scene cut from DA3 because the women amongst his writing staff thought it could be interpreted as rape. Naturally Hernandez was lauding it as a victory for progress towards equality and all that jazz.
Fast forward a few months and here I am looking at scenes from another Bioware product, ME3's Citadel DLC. To paraphrase a possible scene, the female Commander Shepard manages to seduce James (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-ygGLuuGn8&t=3m08s), an otherwise unromanceable character who previously states he's not interested in fraternizing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UnFzcsOI6M), into her bed by getting him drunk. Now reverse these gender roles and there'd be riots in the proverbial streets, surely. Imagine the outrage if it were a male Shepard bedding, say, Traynor in such a manner. But because Jimmy Vega's a big tough man, apparently it's okay for FemShep to take advantage of him, and no one, especially anyone amongst Bioware's diverse writing pool, said a word otherwise.
This is my problem with feminist reporters in video games media. When it's women getting victimized, someone lights up the Bat Signal and a whole community of writers are up in arms; put the shoe on the other foot and there's barely a whisper. Somewhere along the line many of them have forgotten that feminism is supposed to be the pursuit of complete gender equality, not the exclusive protection and promotion of womens' interests.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 13, 2013, 01:39:35 am
Somewhere along the line many of them have forgotten that feminism is supposed to be the pursuit of complete gender equality, not the exclusive protection and promotion of womens' interests.
Incidentally, if I had no social experience and someone threw the word "feminism" at me without a newspaper, I'd actually imagine the complete opposite of what you just said. The very word doesn't fit at all with this alleged purpose. It's like a stereotype all by itself, you just hear the word and the first thing that comes to your mind is something different from the supposed definition. But then again, any other word would be too generic and because the male gender is always the default in many languages, not underlining the female gender is pretty much the same as ignoring it.
Someone should reform the very language of every single country.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 13, 2013, 01:44:43 am
Some people forget that these are actual issues that affect real people, and not just things they see on the internet and that they join in order to be able to say they are doing something.
Wow, seriously? Fuck off.
Are you fucking serious? That's exactly what you said. Repeatedly.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on March 13, 2013, 03:49:35 am
Ty Lando for that eye opener as that really shows just how badly men have it these days and why I honestly hope the MRA gains widespread attention and even plenty of female sympathizers in due time.
And I do agree with SNT as you really don't need eyes at this point to realize the folly of Feminists statements these days. Too many times I keep hearing how women are still oppressed here, yet, you can just look at the other corners of the world to see how terrible it is for women.
I guess that's the real difference between Feminists and Women's Rights Activists, they actually do productive things to better women overall...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: c001357 on March 13, 2013, 05:04:32 am
yes, exactly! that doesnt invalidate the effort. reminder that those within the 'gaming culture' as a whole are not even aware of this, and if they know they are indifferent and even hostile (very hostile, in this case) to the idea that this is a Real Thing that needs to be pointed out, surface-level the actual analysis in these videos may be. asking why companies or groups make these decisions re: representation is something worth asking. is it because they dont know any better? is it a deliberate thing i.e. fanservice? its matter of taking the first step towards characters that in general(!) have their own agency, making them rounder and fleshed-out
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 13, 2013, 05:42:32 am
Slightly tangential: When I watch Spartacus, I would rather not see the naked women and men having sex. I totally hate that scenes.
I do kinda agree with Walt: focusing on video games when video games is but a subsection of the actual problem is such a shortcoming. I said this initially, but it was destroyed by an argument about semantics. Unless she is part of a larger group that has split the task of equality into several parts, her raging barrage on video games is quite useless. She has to worry about other forms of media that, frankly, present worse problems than some animated representations of those ideas that are made popular by more significant forms of media.
And let's face it, all she is doing is TALKING about something in Youtube videos-- nothing is going to change, no matter how many parts of the video she makes. She simply exploited money from people after building up whatever reputation she has.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 13, 2013, 05:43:23 am
All I want is to get laid one last time.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on March 13, 2013, 06:57:31 pm
My main thing against this "study" is the vast amounts of money that it was given.
$158,000?! That is enough to feed a man for a hundred years! (assuming $30 a week is spent on food)
Or enough money to buy several new cars!
Why would a "study" on video games require so much money?! This smells funny!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Walt on March 13, 2013, 07:04:24 pm
it doesn't "require", she asked for 3K, she got 158K out of the people's interest on the topic.
she landed on a goldmine
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on March 13, 2013, 07:13:54 pm
A gold mine that I think she does not deserve. Thankfully, I never donated to anything on Kickstarter.
But the big problem is that can anyone make sure that a good portion of the funds are actually used for the project and not for a new car for example?
That is a large amount of money sitting there. It is way too tempting to "borrow" $20K or a new car and write it off as "Project expenses". Is there transparency to the budget?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 13, 2013, 07:49:19 pm
But then again, at some point there's only so much you can spend on making a few videos. The games, the camera, writing staff, video editing staff and related, and the rest is research and time.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on March 13, 2013, 07:57:01 pm
Yeah, but that should not cost $100K by the time the project ends.
If the money is not completely used up by the end, where does it go?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 13, 2013, 09:11:39 pm
That's what I'm saying, there's only so much you can spend on that stuff, it won't reach the amount of money she was given. Asking where the money goes is a bit useless, isn't it a donation ? As long as she's provides what she was paid for, I don't see what you can expect.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 13, 2013, 09:38:29 pm
My main thing against this "study" is the vast amounts of money that it was given.
$158,000?! That is enough to feed a man for a hundred years! (assuming $30 a week is spent on food)
Or enough money to buy several new cars!
Why would a "study" on video games require so much money?! This smells funny!
DNZ, Some people will do anything to validate their interests as legitimate, and its easier to throw money at something than to interact with it. A lot of "tumblr feminists" ( not all ofc, but a lot ) are the kind of internet activists that would do anything to validate their interests, and when someone showed up doing something that would validate them, they invested.
It has happened a ton of times before. I remember the case of this project : http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-arkh-project?website_name=The-Arkh-Project which I always considered a scam preying on tg people. it was for a game that would touch on gender issues and minorities, but never actually delved on gameplay, just on vague notions of how it wouldnt be a game avoiding the issues that all other games avoided. It got a ton of coverage and money based on the subjects alone. Even without a hint of gameplay throughout the whole thing. Even now, ages later, it has barely scratched what its supposed to be.
http://thearkhproject.tumblr.com/ It isnt as much as Anita got, but as she went to TED to talk about her persecution, it drummed up a lot of interest in people seeking to validate themselves. People seeking to validate the internet feminism movement donated in droves. Its to a point where in a lot of news sites you have people going there to "attack" anyone that criticizes the video for its mistakes ( like the krystal thing where she only talked about what interested her to make her point) . You also get the trolls, which follow anything like that for shock value.
She pretty much earned that money out of said interest. What she does with it, its up to her.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 14, 2013, 12:18:15 am
Some people will do anything to validate their interests as legitimate.
:hump:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 14, 2013, 10:29:36 am
O_O
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: anthonygamer on March 15, 2013, 10:11:52 am
The double dragon part of that video was godlike! I was waiting for her to bash that. lol
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 15, 2013, 10:21:24 am
You were waiting for her to bash on a 25 year old game ?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: anthonygamer on March 15, 2013, 10:52:45 am
^ I knew she had something to say about the punch to the girls stomach at the beginning of the double dragon games. Took her 20 minutes to get there.
The fact that the old game is "25 years old" is irrelevant, but thanks for mentioning that I guess.
BTW, Double Dragon Neon came out last year. :wacky: That was also featured in the video.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 15, 2013, 11:53:12 am
Isn't it a remake of the original ? What would you expect from a remake exactly, a complete change of what happens at the beginning ? That wouldn't be a remake. It was made 25 years ago and the fact that a remake came out last year is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Nomechy on March 15, 2013, 12:22:08 pm
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
She actually get's revenge at the end of Neon
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: anthonygamer on March 15, 2013, 01:04:54 pm
Oooooh. I smell a "I gotta get the last word" battle incoming. :hump:
Isn't it a remake of the original ? What would you expect from a remake exactly, a complete change of what happens at the beginning ? That wouldn't be a remake. It was made 25 years ago and the fact that a remake came out last year is irrelevant.
I've seen playthroughs of Double Dragon Neon. Only the beginning screen(female being punched and garage door) was kept. Everything else is redone(Teh whole game). So keeping the 1 screen at the beginning and changing everything else makes it true to the original? Come on. lol
They could come up with a different way to kidnap the girl, but maybe hardcore fans would hate that I suppose. Nostalgia eh?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 24, 2013, 05:52:39 am
I guess they thought that mostly necrophiliac, women-attracted people played the game? Because, otherwise, it's a stupid way to make money.
I'm still trying to be offended by it, but I can't seem to get my ego wrapped around it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 24, 2013, 06:18:28 am
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." - H. L. Mencken
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 24, 2013, 06:38:33 am
that torso turned out to be a pr disaster for which they had to apologize http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/121533-Deep-Silver-Apologizes-for-Mutilated-Dead-Island-Torso
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on March 24, 2013, 03:20:26 pm
Hello guys and gals,
I found an interesting point about the current controversy with Anita Sarkeesi and I wanted to investigate into the point.
While surfing Youtube, I come across a comment that is quite interesting as it shed some light on the events around the controversy:
Quote
Actually,it goes like this. She makes videos. People disagree based on factual inaccuracies. Puts up Kickstarter. Goes to 4CHAN and spams /v/ with links to her Kickstarter. Shitstorm ensues. Anita plays victim,even getting attention from the old media. Kickstarter gets fuckloads of money from "sympathetic supporters". People still complain about factual inaccuracies.
I was wondering if this is true or accurate, because if it is, than I am rather angry at her for kicking up a nest of hornets, playing the abused victim card, and getting a heck-ton of money because of it.
Why does she get a lot of money for deceiving people like that while I don't for doing honest work?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 24, 2013, 05:13:23 pm
^ not surprised. It's easier than working a 9 to 5.
I think as a moderately attractive young woman, she's capitalizing on the same points she's railing against by appealing to a mostly male under 30 target demographic with a social life eating habit. If her picture had instead been of an unkempt overweight man in his early 40's with a long, renowned and informed video game history, how much money do you think he would have gotten for the same project? I think she's working everyone who gave her a dime or plugs her article, and now she's loaded, because she successfully stereotyped her target demographic. Cynical, maybe, but to me it honestly seems like what's going on.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 24, 2013, 05:20:24 pm
she gets money because that's how kickstarter works. she got way more than what she asked for because her project was of interest to many. she's absolutely not the first one to get money through a kickstarter while doing jack shit. if pikachu guy had some kind of talent or interesting proposal then he could get funding through kickstarter, but alas.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 24, 2013, 05:25:42 pm
I doubt it was her 'project' that was of interest to many myself... ;) I think she got money because that's how something else works. Of course I don't follow too much on Kickstarted, but I've browsed it enough to know that that's a fuck load of money, even on there. But hey we're all entitled to our opinions. Mine just happens to be that if she were an overweight balding male, this thread would have been about 3 pages max.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 24, 2013, 05:51:40 pm
I doubt it was her 'project' that was of interest to many myself... ;) I think she got money because that's how something else works. Of course I don't follow too much on Kickstarted, but I've browsed it enough to know that that's a fuck load of money, even on there. But hey we're all entitled to our opinions. Mine just happens to be that if she were an overweight balding male, this thread would have been about 3 pages max.
Well no fucking shit it wouldn't have been such a success if it was made by a fedora-wearing neckbeard. Neither side of its supporters and detractors would've cared because a male feminist is no effort punchline like a (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1376466869/lore-0) good chunk (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/343248998/cheetahmen-ii-the-lost-levels) of most (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/415454318/yolo-clothing-you-only-live-once) Kickstarter projects. (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/457586868/lets-make-obama-a-pop-star)
The project didn't really explode until it garnered media attention from the harassment/death threats Anita got as a result of the project. You probably shouldn't argue on a subject that you're ill-informed on.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 24, 2013, 06:55:03 pm
You just said he's right, said he's wrong, and insulted him and men in general all in the same post.
Don't you feel proud?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 24, 2013, 07:12:08 pm
It would have failed if she had been a man, but it's not the reason it worked either.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on March 24, 2013, 08:08:01 pm
But the point is that the only reason why she gets so much money is that she might have kicked a nest of hornets that is 4Chan, which generated the media publicity she needed to get all of the money.
Good for her, but is it really ethical to claim that you have been the victim while it is you who flung the first stone by provoking a situation like that?
Provoking someone into attacking you and claiming that you are innocent is not ethical in the least. If she really have done that, shame on her.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 24, 2013, 08:28:09 pm
i have no idea if she really posted the links on 4chan or whatever, but if she did, it still doesn't fucking warrant death and rape threats.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 24, 2013, 08:29:38 pm
Its a marketing ploy, its not the first time it worked either. If 4chan wanted to destroy her they should have supported her.
really stupid trolls , the kind that work by roleplaying , assume characters and try to do the most they can to stick to those, these are all people trying to be as disgusting and shock value as possible. We have all seen them, it doesnt make them right. now consider this: the product she sells is "you are being oppressed", she gathered the attention of the most obvious trolls possible, then went to give ted talks about it. Ofcouse money would rain in from people wanting to take a stance against that kind of harassment ( not exactly people wanting to support her project )
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 24, 2013, 09:27:00 pm
http://www.playereffort.com/?p=3884
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on March 24, 2013, 09:56:18 pm
How can I get started with exploiting people with Kickstarter?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 24, 2013, 10:18:50 pm
apparently all you need to do is to be a milionaire, spam twitter, and act like a misandry filled bitch that uses your own sons as villains to rake up money.
she repeatedly calls them out as mean kids, bullies and has one of them dressed with a shirt that says "I am a lesbian" . Seriously one of the reward tiers ( for 10k I think ) is that the sons have to write a apology letter. (http://i.imgur.com/6fTtQuo.jpg?1) she seems to have a female only kickstarter site called fundher, how specific and terrible is that? http://i.imgur.com/ce2TENp.png
here, from a fark thread about this:
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
This whole post on the kickstarter thread is relevant. Look for Henrick on the first page. Its sourcing Reddit.
1) She has her own female only crowd funding website so why is she using kickstarter?
Link: http://www.fundher.com/
2) She has tried scamming kickstarter with a previous "project" which is pretty much the stupidest thing I've ever seen. She was asking for $20k . And I still haven't figured out what the "project" is about. Something about wearing towels as capes?
Here's a link to it http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/susanwilson/the-cape-project
Nonsense regarding the failed Kickstarter scam
Who hasn't wished they could fly? CUSTOM SUPERHERO CAPES! Personalized. Exquisitely crafted. Handmade by U.S. veteran family business.
OUR STORY
Our capes aren't quite bulletproof or indestructible, but they do withstand the harshest, unimaginative, closed minds on earth. No, your personalized cape won't allow you to jump tall buildings nor will it give you night vision. But it will allow you to defeat boring days and capture the imagination inside you. And what's more powerful than that?
3) She's breaking the Kickstarter Spamming rule
Rule in question: http://i.imgur.com/yefoxge.png
Evidence of Spam: http://i.imgur.com/b4l2fI2.png
She's spamming celebrities like Lady Gaga & The Ellen DeGeneres show. Why is she spamming celebrities and popular media just to raise $829?
3a) Also evidence of breach of the "Fund my life" rule being broken:
Rule: http://i.imgur.com/6008aOd.png
Evidence: http://i.imgur.com/eUIagWv.png
4) As stated by the O.P she's exploiting gender issues (feminism) such as the debate on women in STEM fields. She keeps referring to the RPG training camp as RPG STEM training camp. (Clearly milking the buzzword STEM)
http://i.imgur.com/di4Vrja.png
More exploitation of gender issues:
http://i.imgur.com/Y0yH2OK.png
http://i.imgur.com/F03oG3e.png
5) The company that is running the RPG training camp, has an article on this Kickstarter. (Only trying to raise $829??)
http://i.imgur.com/djPAIKp.png
http://i.imgur.com/PiZT0yo.png
6) If she only wanted to raise $829, why is she offering rewards for donating $10k ??
http://i.imgur.com/05CeXyu.png
7) Portraying her sons as mean oppressors and throwing them under the bus to make a quick buck (Appeal to misandry)
http://i.imgur.com/ce2TENp.png
http://i.imgur.com/7xXuRbV.png
8) Evidence of her questionable business ethics (Cybersquatting)
Evidence: http://i.imgur.com/jIduN8G.png
9) Relevant articles from her blog, she seems to think mixing gender issues with crowd funding is a good way to make money, which explains her kickstarter, exploiting her children & gender issues.
http://i.imgur.com/RmGlRn6.png
http://i.imgur.com/G25TKZN.png
Conclusion:
She's a scumbag, clearly has no ethics, is a cyber suqatter and a spammer, exploits her children, exploits gender issues & appeals to misandry to make a few bucks.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on March 24, 2013, 10:25:32 pm
Oh really?!
What is with these scumbags? No one will donate to this person, and her name would forever be associated with this scam.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 24, 2013, 10:26:41 pm
what are you talking about she asked for 900 dollars and already got 20 thousand dollars.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on March 24, 2013, 10:38:29 pm
WOW! this has got to be the most smartest woman on the planet. as iced says tho.. Scumbag. I read that one line at the bottom where she says basically to give women money cause " we can't help ourselves"...? ooook so where does Women Empowerment come in with saying something like that? This woman is a true blue scammer and shame on her for using her kids like that!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 24, 2013, 10:43:44 pm
some of the comments on the kickstarter page are just baffling (http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7684/shoesv.png) http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/Shinta/9-year-old-girl-rpg-kickstarter-a-pack-of-lies--249507.phtml
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on March 24, 2013, 11:02:37 pm
damn! well whoever gave her money to fund whatever the hell it is she was trying to pull off ( and she over succeeded of course ..$$ :2thumbsup:) just added more money to her millions to something she has more than enough money to fund herself at a lil over 800 bucks. . great job. I guess there are people out here who truly enjoy giving their money blindly away without researching and seriously thinking about the cause and who they giving it to. making the rich..get a lil richer. lol
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 24, 2013, 11:05:10 pm
Why the fuck am I working for a living -- this seems so much easier. =/
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on March 25, 2013, 12:31:16 am
I guess Anita Sarkeesi would say, it's the fault of the MAN who createt kickstater, that woman are using there little kids to scam there, because of the patriarchal society or something like that. xD
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 25, 2013, 12:48:22 am
I doubt it was her 'project' that was of interest to many myself... ;)
you're, for some reason, assuming that the project was largely funded by horny men that want a blowjob from her when it was probably 90% feminists
Well, them and their ex-girlfriends who dumped them because all they basically do is play video games full of impossibly hot women. Pardon me for playing the devils advocate here, It's just funny to me.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 25, 2013, 12:54:59 am
Don't you have that vague feeling that you missed something in what he said ? It sounded like "you're wrong".
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 25, 2013, 12:57:59 am
rmh, your assumption doesnt make much sense. it pushes the notion that they are giving her money because they find her attractive when its far more likely they are doing it to validate their own personal agendas.
Assuming that the people giving her money do so solely on the hopes that they would someday be able to sleep with her is pushing way way way over the line. Your notion is sexist.
Playing the devil advocat in this situation wouldnt pass by saying that her sex appeal got her the money since its not her lack of sex appeal that got it , so its a weird counter.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 25, 2013, 01:44:12 am
rmh, your assumption doesnt make much sense. it pushes the notion that they are giving her money because they find her attractive when its far more likely they are doing it to validate their own personal agendas.
Assuming that the people giving her money do so solely on the hopes that they would someday be able to sleep with her is pushing way way way over the line. Your notion is sexist.
Playing the devil advocat in this situation wouldnt pass by saying that her sex appeal got her the money since its not her lack of sex appeal that got it , so its a weird counter.
Hey, I'm not saying those are the only people giving her money at all. I've been kind of taking a joking standpoint on the whole thing (devils advocate to be clear). To be perfectly honest I've never even read her blog or watched one of her videos, except for that one that the guy was critiquing.
I am, however, still standing by the idea that even if she were a woman, but older and overweight that she wouldn't have gotten nearly the draw that she got. I'm saying I think there where hormones in that hornet nest she kicked, and I would feel naive to assume that being moderately attractive did nothing for her. Aside from that, I think to a decent extent her whole argument is extremely sexist, despite her giving her own gender the short end of the stick. I think it subtly paints men who enjoy the roles of specific women in video games in a misogynistic light that they may or may not necessarily deserve. I think by playing victim she's implying a problem group, which may or may not be at fault for anything at all.
Thinking out loud, maybe she's personally felt pigeonholed by chivalry in her life, or been ignored for or ignored others for/by video games enough to feel like she's drawing some moralistic high ground in self defense and then displacing it, using the 'means' available to her, onto the video game crowd? I don't know, I don't particularly care either. The whole thing smells funny to me, so I'm just giving it shit on the way by really.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 25, 2013, 01:51:42 am
It would have failed if she had been a man, but it's not the reason it worked either.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 25, 2013, 01:54:01 am
Exactly. Her being a man is a further (but unnecessary) exaggeration of the point.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 25, 2013, 01:56:50 am
... wat.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 25, 2013, 01:59:59 am
...never mind. I don't think either of us care that much anyway.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 25, 2013, 05:01:19 am
you're playing devil's advocate in a subject you have no idea about
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 25, 2013, 06:47:33 am
I highly doubt people would donate money to her just in hopes of sleeping with her in the future or because she looks "hot." If she was in a strip club, maybe it would be a different story.
How many people actually donated? Was there one big lump sum from some huge fan of hers? All these assumptions don't matter, all that matters is that she did exploit money and is now going to be living the life for a few years; longer, if she's smart about it, which she probably is.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 25, 2013, 10:57:29 am
She being hot is too inconsequential rmh, she got some pull because she is photogenic, but thats the same reason people want to trust a executive instead of a meth addict, or that they want to protect a nine year old girl instead of her mean old brothers. You could be making a case for stereotypes in that she is stereotypically pretty, but you are not, you are making a case for sex appeal and i think its sortof failing a lot, sorry.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 25, 2013, 07:55:26 pm
you're playing devil's advocate in a subject you have no idea about
Yeah, didn't I already make that clear? But to be fair, my point doesn't require much knowledge of the subject. It just seems obvious to me. My bet is that you guys have already said to much on the subject to back up to where I'm coming from anyway, so you're going to defend it regardless. Which is fine of course, and I don't have much interest in advancing my point, I'm just having fun kickin the same shit back at someone who's kickin at me and everybody like me.
She being hot is too inconsequential rmh, she got some pull because she is photogenic, but thats the same reason people want to trust a executive instead of a meth addict, or that they want to protect a nine year old girl instead of her mean old brothers. You could be making a case for stereotypes in that she is stereotypically pretty, but you are not, you are making a case for sex appeal and i think its sortof failing a lot, sorry.
@Iced: I don't see how her being attractive is inconsequential. You kind of bolster that with the examples you use, don't you? 'She's an attractive girl, so we should trust her to know what horrors follow from being attractive.' (this is why we trust an executive instead of a meth addict) Certainly not making the point for inconsequential. No need to be sorry, I appreciate you're taking the time to critique my reasoning, and if you care to continue, please do. At best I (or maybe you) could learn something new.
I think you guys are missing my reasoning here. I'm not saying I think people are trying to get her to whore herself out by donating, I think it's much more subtle than that, and you're kind of straw manning me on it, which (in my own warped reality) tells me you're intentionally missing what I'm saying, (devil's advocacy alert) possibly because you're guilty. People don't need to think they're going to get into Megan Foxes pants by hanging her poster on their wall, but it sure as hell is sexy that has her hanging there.
Now, I still feel like I can make a pretty decent case for my point here, but if it's something you guys don't want to hear, I won't bother, because again, it's just not that important to me. I think she's working the market with sexy and controversy and that's about it, which is far from unheard of. Would you rather I continue or stop here?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 25, 2013, 08:11:29 pm
She being hot is too inconsequential rmh, she got some pull because she is photogenic, but thats the same reason people want to trust a executive instead of a meth addict, or that they want to protect a nine year old girl instead of her mean old brothers. You could be making a case for stereotypes in that she is stereotypically pretty, but you are not, you are making a case for sex appeal and i think its sortof failing a lot, sorry.
@Iced: I don't see how her being attractive is inconsequential. You kind of bolster that with the examples you use, don't you? 'She's an attractive girl, so we should trust her to know what horrors follow from being attractive.' (this is why we trust an executive instead of a meth addict) Certainly not making the point for inconsequential. No need to be sorry, I appreciate you're taking the time to critique my reasoning, and if you care to continue, please do. At best I (or maybe you) could learn something new.
I believe you are missing the point entirely.
Quote
'She's an attractive girl, so we should trust her to know what horrors follow from being attractive.'
Thats not the point she is making at all, she is talking about sexism, not about horrors from being attractive, sexism is a real problem in the world and it doesnt affect "pretty girls" only. The examples I gave you arent based on sex appeal. You dont trust a executive because they give you the hots, you do so because they look presentable. If the Meth head in my example was hot you would still think she was attractive but that wouldnt mean she could command the attention of a board meeting. ( except if she ODed on the reunion table i guess )
Quote
I think you guys are missing my reasoning here. I'm not saying I think people are trying to get her to whore herself out by donating, I think it's much more subtle than that, and you're kind of straw manning me on it, which (in my own warped reality) tells me you're intentionally missing what I'm saying, (devil's advocacy alert) possibly because you're guilty. People don't need to think they're going to get into Megan Foxes pants by hanging her poster on their wall, but it sure as hell is sexy that has her hanging there.
you are saying that people are donating towards her because they are attracted to her, even tho they know that they would never get anything with her, which is categorically wrong. Even if there was the offchance a small group of people saw her and thought "shes attractive i want her to have money" the huge bulk of her donations come from her charismatic approach to oppression. Shes presenting them a flag holder that they can identify on, which wouldnt work with someone with a bad pull on people, but that doesnt mean that they want to fuck her either.
In your poster in the wall example she would more likely be a che guevara poster on the wall of a feminist than a sexy megan fox poster on the wall of a teenager.
Quote
Now, I still feel like I can make a pretty decent case for my point here, but if it's something you guys don't want to hear, I won't bother, because again, it's just not that important to me. I think she's working the market with sexy and controversy and that's about it, which is far from unheard of. Would you rather I continue or stop here?
You can continue all you want, but i believe your case of "shes hot so shes geting money from people " is fundamentally flawed.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 25, 2013, 10:19:18 pm
She being hot is too inconsequential rmh, she got some pull because she is photogenic, but thats the same reason people want to trust a executive instead of a meth addict, or that they want to protect a nine year old girl instead of her mean old brothers. You could be making a case for stereotypes in that she is stereotypically pretty, but you are not, you are making a case for sex appeal and i think its sortof failing a lot, sorry.
@Iced: I don't see how her being attractive is inconsequential. You kind of bolster that with the examples you use, don't you? 'She's an attractive girl, so we should trust her to know what horrors follow from being attractive.' (this is why we trust an executive instead of a meth addict) Certainly not making the point for inconsequential. No need to be sorry, I appreciate you're taking the time to critique my reasoning, and if you care to continue, please do. At best I (or maybe you) could learn something new.
I believe you are missing the point entirely.
Quote
'She's an attractive girl, so we should trust her to know what horrors follow from being attractive.'
Thats not the point she is making at all, she is talking about sexism, not about horrors from being attractive, sexism is a real problem in the world and it doesnt affect "pretty girls" only. The examples I gave you arent based on sex appeal. You dont trust a executive because they give you the hots, you do so because they look presentable. If the Meth head in my example was hot you would still think she was attractive but that wouldnt mean she could command the attention of a board meeting. ( except if she ODed on the reunion table i guess )
Haha, yeah, ODing at the board meeting might just over ride physical appeal :)
Ok, I'm not saying that's the point she's making tho, that's the point you were making: "she got some pull because she is photogenic, but that's the same reason people want to trust a executive instead of a meth addict..." = "She's an attractive woman so her insight into the 'horrors' that beset attractive women are more desirable". You could also phrase it: "She looks like she takes care of herself, so her opinion is probably seen as more valid than someone who doesn't." but either way it's seeking to validate credential judgment based on appearance (especially if her appearance is being used through stereotypes to assert credential), which is basically what I'm saying. Whether her attractiveness garnered her support from horny young adults, or feminist advocates (which would be even more hilariously ironic) I think if she were ass ugly (or male, given her audience), she might not have gotten half the chance to make her points in the first place, and people agreeing or disagreeing probably came afterwards, and often enough was probably initially contingent on her appearance (and likely gender).
By following this discussion to any level of seriousness, I'm kind of overstepping the bounds of my stance, but whatevs.
Here, check this link out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness_stereotype
My point, in one form "She's getting paid at least in large part because of how she looks (and likely her gender) given who she's pitching to (and maybe afterwards for controversy and being a damsel over at 4chan, which also contradict her stance)." Concerning this forum (gamers), I stand by my initial point.
Do you think the gamer demographic 'mostly males under 35' were $158,000 concerned with sexism in video games before some hottie brought it up that they could come to the aid of? I don't.
I think you guys are missing my reasoning here. I'm not saying I think people are trying to get her to whore herself out by donating, I think it's much more subtle than that, and you're kind of straw manning me on it, which (in my own warped reality) tells me you're intentionally missing what I'm saying, (devil's advocacy alert) possibly because you're guilty. People don't need to think they're going to get into Megan Foxes pants by hanging her poster on their wall, but it sure as hell is sexy that has her hanging there.
you are saying that people are donating towards her because they are attracted to her, even tho they know that they would never get anything with her, which is categorically wrong. Even if there was the off chance a small group of people saw her and thought "shes attractive i want her to have money" the huge bulk of her donations come from her charismatic approach to oppression. Shes presenting them a flag holder that they can identify on, which wouldnt work with someone with a bad pull on people, but that doesnt mean that they want to fuck her either.
Yeah I'm saying some people are donating to her because they think she's attractive (the bit about her finding and fucking them was a joke at the subconscious, I thought obviously) and further, that some people are only considering her points because of her gender and attractiveness, but either way I think it's a relatively huge factor for her.
You are asserting that the bulk of her money came from people who agree with her points. I'm saying I'll bet a lot of them probably only listened to her and considered her points in the first place because of how she looks.
In your poster in the wall example she would more likely be a che guevara poster on the wall of a feminist than a sexy megan fox poster on the wall of a teenager.
I doubt it, myself, but it could be a mix of both at best.
Quote
You can continue all you want, but i believe your case of "shes hot so shes geting money from people " is fundamentally flawed.
First off, that's kinda her case as well with the video game women "they're all hot, half naked and in distress", on top of being 'in distress' herself, given the backlash she received for basically implying that games are misogynistic. Second off, it's neither 'categorically wrong' or 'fundamentally flawed', it's a well researched well established reality by those standards. Here's another article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 25, 2013, 10:47:10 pm
her looks are comparatively a very small factor in the amount of money she got compared to A: being a feminist B: being someone that was on the receiving end of (mostly empty) death and rape threats. it's no secret that most people are likelier to take interest in something offered by a beautiful looking person, but this isn't the case. literally nobody is going OH SHE'S SO PRETTY I WANT TO donate a certain amount of money so she can research on the subject of females in videogames WHAT A FUCKING BABE
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 25, 2013, 10:50:55 pm
(oh god why am I agreeing with RMH)
titlin, it's more like 'Oh, she's an attractive female, so she probably has experienced the problems females experience due to men being attracted to them and can voice some legitimate insight on the subject'.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 25, 2013, 10:51:23 pm
Quote
Do you think the gamer demographic 'mostly males under 35' were $158,000 concerned with sexism in video games before some hottie brought it up that they could come to the aid of? I don't.
You are the one making the assumption that male gamers are supporting her. Everything points to everything BUT that.
Including her TED talk. You are being sexist in assuming that her "stereotypical" good looks are the blade in her fight.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 25, 2013, 10:55:09 pm
it's more like 'Oh, she's an attractive female, so she probably has experienced the problems females experience due to men being attracted to them and can voice some legitimate insight on the subject'.
Which is still a lot more about the feminism topic than guys being attracted to her.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 25, 2013, 10:56:45 pm
titlin, it's more like 'Oh, she's an attractive female, so she probably has experienced the problems females experience due to men being attracted to them and can voice some legitimate insight on the subject'.
feminists following a charismatic woman isnt the same thing as people only giving her money because she's hot. one implies that nothing she ever does will be valid unless she is ugly or something. its a hella sexist message.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 25, 2013, 11:02:23 pm
But they are giving her money because she's hot.
Because if she wasn't hot how the fuck would she know about being treated like a sex object and so forth.
No one would take that seriously coming from an incredibly unattractive woman.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 25, 2013, 11:07:40 pm
Thats a buttload of nonsense. They are not giving her money for being treated as a sex object. do you think that every feminist has lived through the whole set of experiences to be able to talk about it? Do you have to get raped to know rape is bad?
Her points would be as valid or invalid coming from a hot woman or a ugly woman. It would need to be someone smart and charismatic to move people, but hot isnt a necessity when talking about sexism.
Do you need to be a foreigner to be able to give a lecture on racism?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 25, 2013, 11:08:22 pm
It would have failed if she had been a man, but it's not the reason it worked either.
(or an ugly girl)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 25, 2013, 11:10:10 pm
@Iced: Again, I'm saying concerning this forum (which is mostly gamers I can only assume) her support is probably concerned with her looks before her points are even considered (again if she were unattractive I'll bet this thread wouldn't have made it past page 3... I mean given the suggested sea of feminists who support her, how many others do you see having their points read on here. Interest in the point?), though they (her points) are what ends up being defended. I'm also saying that it's probably ironically true coming from the feminist camp as well, a lot of whom then probably got behind her the same way Billy and Jimmy Lee got on a mission when they saw their girlfriend getting punched then dragged away by the angry hoard in Double Dragon. Basically everything in terms of research points positively to her success being aided by her looks.
Yeah I'm saying her looks are the edge of the blade, not the whole thing or the handle, but the part that made the necessary difference.
@Titiln: I'm nitpickin for humor sake here, but if those threats had been 'mostly empty' awful things would have happened to here. 'Entirely empty' I think would be more appropriate. " it's no secret that most people are likelier to take interest in something offered by a beautiful looking person, but this isn't the case." ...uh huh... "literally nobody is going OH SHE'S SO PRETTY I WANT TO donate a certain amount of money so she can research on the subject of females in videogames WHAT A FUCKING BABE" well not out loud at least.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 25, 2013, 11:13:03 pm
Yeah, Iced, I agree with you completely. It's not about the validity of her points, it's about whether or not people would accept their validity.
In an ideal world it doesn't matter. Unfortunately this isn't an ideal world.
RMH, I, I don't know, I feel dead inside. :(
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 25, 2013, 11:13:44 pm
Look, here's another way to see my point: "Anything that she is right about in calling a problem is pretty much working for her to get her where she is."
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 25, 2013, 11:14:02 pm
"literally nobody is going OH SHE'S SO PRETTY I WANT TO donate a certain amount of money so she can research on the subject of females in videogames WHAT A FUCKING BABE" well not out loud at least.
find me a group of posters or thread anywhere talking about how attractive she is and how we should donate based on that. you're keep talking absolute fucking nonsense.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 25, 2013, 11:20:49 pm
"literally nobody is going OH SHE'S SO PRETTY I WANT TO donate a certain amount of money so she can research on the subject of females in videogames WHAT A FUCKING BABE" well not out loud at least.
find me a group of posters or thread anywhere talking about how attractive she is and how we should donate based on that. you're keep talking absolute fucking nonsense.
"well not out load at least." See that part? Read this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness_stereotype "you're keep talking absolute fucking nonsense." ;)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 25, 2013, 11:22:06 pm
You're still making up the fact that your link has anything to do with the discussion at hand.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 25, 2013, 11:26:45 pm
oh so most of the money comes from people that secretly want to fuck her. their fetish is giving money to attractive people. a huge number of men, yet you can't find a small group that actually says it out loud. your argument is complete horseshit and you should drop it for your own sake
Yeah, Iced, I agree with you completely. It's not about the validity of her points, it's about whether or not people would accept their validity.
In an ideal world it doesn't matter. Unfortunately this isn't an ideal world.
RMH, I, I don't know, I feel dead inside. :(
It doesnt make any sense here! Cmon! You must know that there is more to sexism than "problems related to being sexy" , that she isnt talking about being sexually persecuted AT ALL in order of her having to be sexy in order to be a trusted source about sexual persecution and that many sexism problems are related to actually NOT BEING SEXY and being treated unfairly over it instead of treated based on your own merits.
Otherwise that nine year old there that got 20 thousand would be getting 20 thousand dollars because she was pretty sexy, instead of the obvious reason being that it was because her "cause" was something feminists identified with and thought the cover story portrayed them in a positive light so they associated with it. Being sexy and being able to present yourself well are not the same thing.
Quote
Again, I'm saying concerning this forum (which is mostly gamers I can only assume) her support is probably concerned with her looks before her points are even considered (again if she were unattractive I'll bet this thread wouldn't have made it past page 3... I mean given the suggested sea of feminists who support her, how many others do you see having their points read on here. Interest in the point?)
--- most of the points on this very thread you are posting are discussing about how wrong she is or isnt, not how hot she is, that makes zero sense, you are just talking complete utter nonsense now. Why would anyone only care to discuss what she said only because she is hot? We have all been discussing what she said because she is talking about videogames, which we all enjoy. What kind of mind do you have that you looked at her, and decided she was hot and just then you were able to parse her critiques of gaming... wait did you even parse any of those? Or did you just went directly to posting about how people want to bang her?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 25, 2013, 11:42:39 pm
oh so most of the money comes from people that secretly want to fuck her. their fetish is giving money to attractive people. a huge number of men, yet you can't find a small group that actually says it out loud. your argument is complete horseshit and you should drop it for your own sake
Yes, the average fetish (cross culture and gender) is to "give attractive people money". I'm not going to argue in circles. My response to every point you've made is already posted. Unless you've got something new, I'm probably not going to bother.
It was just kind of funny that your 'absolute fucking nonsense' was in the same sentence that you told me to stop writing "absolute fucking nonsense'. Which leads to the above point. If my points look like nonsense to you, and you're continuing to make points that I've already stated my response to without offering any new info, I have to guess that you are just not even considering what I'm saying. If calling my position horseshit is what you've got, you've got nothing as far as I'm concerned.
"Yeah I'm saying some people are donating to her because they think she's attractive (the bit about her finding and fucking them was a joke at the subconscious, I thought obviously)" even more so I'm saying that any of the negative points that she's making are ironically working to serve her popularity.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 25, 2013, 11:47:15 pm
Iced, of course, I'm not a moron. However, the people who gave her money are morons. That's kind of my point.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 25, 2013, 11:51:35 pm
Well we dont disagree there, but I find it very sexist to imply that she got credibility with people because shes a hot woman and hot woman are more likely to know about sexism, thats a moron point of view.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 25, 2013, 11:54:55 pm
Yes, the average fetish (cross culture and gender) is to "give attractive people money".
which is absolutely not the case here for reasons i've already stated. her being attractive is a very small factor, i've already detailed why and your rebuttals have been essentially meaningless. i consider what you're saying. i consider it inane. she's a feminist. the type of man that gives money to women just because they're hot is a sexist and therefore has zero interest in feminist issues. that type of man would not support this cause. you'll probably reply to this with a wiki link that has jack shit to do with what i said or you'll point out a typo. barf
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 26, 2013, 12:01:31 am
Well we dont disagree there, but I find it very sexist to imply that she got credibility with people because shes a hot woman and hot woman are more likely to know about sexism, thats a moron point of view.
Well I don't see how the hell else she did it, she certainly doesn't have any credibility on the actual merit of her points. Trading on her attractiveness and playing the victim card so hard it is now permanently engraved on her psyche and her business practices are the only explanations I see for this.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 26, 2013, 12:09:23 am
Disregarding those who saw the opportunity to validate their own ideas and jumped at the chance when she started gathering attention. Find someone who says the things you think, give them money, have them be heard louder than anyone. This has been explained several times, before people even started saying "she got money because she's hot". None of you have addressed that, you just presented your own argument.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 26, 2013, 12:09:46 am
Well for one thing, there is also a difference between sexism and sexyism. Sexism is discrimination based on sex as in gender. Sexyism (my very own word) is discrimination based on physical attractiveness. They are both very real things, but separate none the less.
@iced: To say something like "sexism shouldn't exist, therefor it's sexist and wrong to predict a positive response to an attractive person" is just kind of silly. I think you're confusing the two concepts as being one in the same.
@titiln: Your inability to comprehend the relevance of that article is kind of funny. Here, let me help you: That bias applies on the average to Any following she could possibly have, from any gender or political persuasion. Try reading it. Even staunch feminists are more likely to throw money at a sexy feminist than an ugly one. And get your distinction between sexism and attraction bias straight while your at it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 26, 2013, 12:12:04 am
The article is irrelevant because you just linked to it for no reason other than it said something similar to you, but there is no evidence whatsoever that it actually APPLIES. I could post a link to how the Earth revolves around the Sun and it would be true even if it had no relevance to the discussion, and I can't prove there is any connection. Just like you can't prove your point is what actually happened. You just repeatedly say "some people do that".
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 26, 2013, 12:14:12 am
Did anyone even read the article? Or any of it?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 26, 2013, 12:16:11 am
Have you even read the article about the Earth revolving around the Sun ? Any of it ? No ?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 26, 2013, 12:21:06 am
did you read this thread? the same one where you were claiming gamers here were supporting her because she was hot first? ( hint, you didnt, no one supported her )
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 26, 2013, 12:21:43 am
i've decided to do the research myself (since rmh could not) and find out how many people believe anita sarkeesian is hot http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22anita+sarkeesian+is+hot%22 lol
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 26, 2013, 12:29:40 am
did you read this thread? the same one where you were claiming gamers here were supporting her because she was hot first? ( hint, you didnt, no one supported her )
[–]dawn-of-the-danShillers Gonna Shill 11 points 1 month ago
I think Anita Sarkeesian is hot.
And now that I got the obligatory objectification out of the way, I think she should fulfill her commitments.
permalink
[–]Chucklebuck 8 points 1 month ago
You find women attractive?
How dare you, you sexist cisscum shitlord! Check your biotruth privilege.
permalink parent
[–]he_cried_out_WTF 7 points 1 month ago
Don't find women attractive?
misogynist! Women don't exist to please your penis!
permalink parent
[–]Greyfeld 8 points 1 month ago
I'd hate-fuck Anita Sarkeesian through next week.
But she's still a manipulative, disingenuous, professional victim.
permalink parent
[–]JoanRiversVagina 2 points 1 month ago
I'd hit that... with a softball bat.
permalink parent
[–]Posisang 2 points 1 month ago
Is she Armenian? Armenian girls are hot.
permalink parent
[–]hamandmustard 1 point 1 month ago
She would, but she can't seeing how she's a career carpet-bagger.
permalink parent
[–]morris198 0 points 1 month ago
carpet-bagger
I dunno if this means what you think it means, particularly in light of having said it in response to a comment about her being attractive.
permalink parent
[–]rebuildingMyself 1 point 1 month ago
I think Anita Sarkeesian is hot.
Probably half the reason she got as far as she did in the first place
permalink parent Posted: March 26, 2013, 12:32:13 am Do you guys actually expect me to believe that you believe being attractive did nothing for her?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 26, 2013, 12:32:20 am
my search for "anita sarkeesian is hot" got one result in a reddit thread
~what the fuck does that tell you~
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on March 26, 2013, 12:34:00 am
It tells him that that's all the evidence he needs to prove you wrong, clearly :smug:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bea on March 26, 2013, 12:40:11 am
... Okay, really?
Do you really think she got all that money from horny men that want to fuck her instead of thousands of feminazis out there with money to spare that would love to see their points validated by an internet celebrity?
Or do you think that only men have money to donate to causes they deem relevant to their interests?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 26, 2013, 12:42:33 am
Do you think only women have interests relevant to Sarkeesian's kickstarter proposal?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 26, 2013, 12:43:07 am
No, feminists do.
Hint : not all feminists are women. Why would you even act like it's limited to women when everyone is saying FEMINISTS, not WOMEN.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bea on March 26, 2013, 12:45:03 am
Only feminazis do. And feminazis can be both male or female.
She clearly isn't defending a feminist stance on her videos, since she disregards the improvement and the positive examples we had in recent games, such as the Double Dragon Neon ending.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 26, 2013, 12:48:30 am
did you read this thread? the same one where you were claiming gamers here were supporting her because she was hot first? ( hint, you didnt, no one supported her )
I'll take that as a no.
and i will take that as "I was and am making comments about how people are reacting without actually reading their reactions " That the situation can happen doesnt mean it happens in all cases, its even less likely in a case like this, obviously majorly feminist driven.
Being charismatic, well spoken, well presented, etc ( the executive example i gave before ) led her to the position where she could head that mini part of the movement, that is not the same as "shes hot and people want to fuck her, so they listen to her points after being attracted by the hotness", which is a major objectivization of her.I might disagree with her on a ton of points, but I wouldnt objectify her like that. It implies that as long as you are pretty every skill you have is put in question.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on March 26, 2013, 01:09:28 am
Hint : not all feminists are women. Why would you even act like it's limited to women when everyone is saying FEMINISTS, not WOMEN.
Because I misread. It happens. No shouting is required.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 26, 2013, 01:15:21 am
Capital is for emphasize, not necessarily shouting. And I did well since those are precisely the words you missed.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on March 26, 2013, 03:00:39 am
LMAO Titlin for that link on the other page. lol
Ok i see hot women all the time, i work with them at my job too. but i be damned if they cam,e to me and asked me for money that i would blindly give them money . LOL Her being " attractive" has no bearing on her having a cause to raise money unless that was the whole motivation to do so. Use her beauty to get money. I can name hundreds of women i personally would deem far more attractive than her and i still wouldnt give them money based on their beauty. If your attractive then your attractive. Now if you use it to sell something then that is totally different ( example ..models that advertise clothing and such ) . I haven't seen anything about her that she is selling herself ( body , sex, etc) to anyone ( cause women could have donated money as well and not just men) that she would go out and bang people that gave money or any kind of exchange of any kind of service for the money.
Her being "hot" really isnt part of the reason for the discussion and has zero bearing on the topic unless those that can't find any reason other than why Men ( if exclusively talking about just Men) find her hot and dont care about the subject she is presenting and just threw away money is the only reason they can think of. lol. If smart people really researched her and what her standpoints and views have been when asking for donation ( see iced links from previous pages ) then they wouldn't be giving her a penny wether she was pretty or not.
I think she is exploiting both Kickstarter, the people who donate and the feminist community by scamming innocent folks out of their money by starting causes she herself dont truly believe in and behave in such ways as exploiting her own kids for a camp for her daughter that this woman can pay for herself with ease. think about this.. she asked for a donation in full of 800 odd dollars... she got 20 grand.. so what happens to all the rest of the money after the 800 is paid for the daughter to attend the camp? Once she got ther 800 , hmmmm why she just didnt cut it off and say thanx for donations instead of letting it build to such a ridiculous level of money for something so small and personal? She is a scam artist. If this has worked before then she will continue as long as people will toss money at her causes without being logical about the entire thing as a whole and see the real deal.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 26, 2013, 03:33:08 am
I think I see what's going on here. Before I read anything else about this girl, I read "girl asks for $6000 for feminist video game study and gets $158,000", and skimmed the article, so I made this joke:
Quote
Girl - I want a pile of money and video games. Maybe I'll ask the internet, and tell 'em it's for research.
Internet - You're hawt. Here's 26 times the absurd amount of money you asked for. How did you like the games? And the new house, car and manager?
Girl - bla bla bla
Internet - I find your interpretations of gender and sex in video games interesting enough to write a wall of text. Please find me and fuck me. What other castle?
Yeah, that just happened.
I still think it's funny, and for the most part actually appropriate, but it is a comment only on the basest notions at play. (I think her 'points' may have held on to her audience a bit, but I don't think half of that audience (feminists and gamers alike) would have given her nearly as much consistent support if she hadn't been attractive as well. That's what I was humorously calling this thread out on, because I couldn't see her stirring up the walls of texts she did had she been disgustingly and horrifyingly ugly. *Barfs on titln*.
To be fair at that point I hadn't done the reading to know that she had a previously established following, and that was all just conjecture, but I don't feel like I turned out to be too far off. Then, before I read much more I made this comment:
Quote
I think as a moderately attractive young woman, she's capitalizing on the same points she's railing against by appealing to a mostly male under 30 target demographic with a social life eating habit. If her picture had instead been of an unkempt overweight man in his early 40's with a long, renowned and informed video game history, how much money do you think he would have gotten for the same project? I think she's working everyone who gave her a dime or plugs her article, and now she's loaded, because she successfully stereotyped her target demographic. Cynical, maybe, but to me it honestly seems like what's going on.
At this point I still hadn't given her much reading, but I did make the basic point, which I later supported with this article about physical attractiveness as it relates to success in general. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness_stereotype) The basic point I made was that she is where she is precisely because of the biases she's railing against. I'm saying she was objectivized as an attractive woman by a large portion of her audience, and given more attention and consideration as such on that basis. Whether or not her brain was able to keep her audiences attention and represent it well enough I think was far third to (and I only recently learned this) her working the damsel in distress angle for sympathy cash, whether or not that was her intention (does smell funny, I have to admit, but who knows). But it was certainly, from where I'm sitting, her gaining massive cash and publicity at the advantage of two stereotypes to which she is apparently vehemently opposed.
Whatever terrible criticism she received from the gaming community for saying that their favorite past time was misogynistic (whether deserved or not) is tough to use as a reason to validate actually supporting her and her claims. It's the kind of thing I can see getting overlooked in a quick decision / knee jerk situation, but supporting her is really not a binary issue, you can just as easily agree or disagree with her points, and still say it was wrong to victimize her to that extent. And again, I think a good portion of her funding was probably a knee jerk to the damsel in distress situation, which I think also itself relies at least somewhat on her appearance anyway. Not trying to be sexist or objectivize her from my own perspective, just looking at her personal presentation the points she's making and the situation she's in, and trying to draw the most realistic assessment I can gather. What I've come to is what I said.
If you all have anything new to offer for the points your making, I'm all ears, but that's where I'm at as of now anyway. Posted: March 26, 2013, 03:58:15 am @C.R.O.M Lando: I agree with most of what you just said. I think not throwing money at someone simply because they're attractive would be the intelligent thing to do. It doesn't, however, seem to be the average thing people do, at least according to anything I've read. I'm not saying she's trying to whore herself out or anything, just that I think she has capitalized on her looks, and played her roles as well, while knocking the looks and roles of video game bitches. I agree to some extent I think she is kind of a scam artist for not just taking what she needed in terms of donations, and allowing it to get to such an insane amount... though it's tough for me to imagine myself cutting it off and denying people from donating to whatever the hell I started. Either way though, I think the general sentiment is the same here. I think she worked her situation for personal cash, and probably won't give people a result even close to worth what they paid her for.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: NTA on March 26, 2013, 10:51:20 am
Console games are like the best video games ever made lol
wtf 360 games? Why not ps3? The study is useless without ps3
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 26, 2013, 10:56:29 am
It's only a part of the full list on that picture, she didn't take a picture of the entire pile. Beside, there are PS3 games in that picture, the second pile on the right is PS3 games.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 26, 2013, 05:53:20 pm
my search for "anita sarkeesian is hot" got one result in a reddit thread
~what the fuck does that tell you~
That you need reddit to tell you whether or not a woman is attractive? Or maybe that for the second time, even with me pointing right to it, you've failed to read the part where I said "not out loud" meaning I don't think this is a key talking point for most people (and I can see why) but I do think it's a very heavy factor none the less.
Here's pretty much everything you've said in response to my point so far:
Quote
she gets money because that's how kickstarter works. she got way more than what she asked for because her project was of interest to many. she's absolutely not the first one to get money through a kickstarter while doing jack shit. if pikachu guy had some kind of talent or interesting proposal then he could get funding through kickstarter, but alas.
you're, for some reason, assuming that the project was largely funded by horny men that want a blowjob from her when it was probably 90% feminists
you're playing devil's advocate in a subject you have no idea about
her looks are comparatively a very small factor in the amount of money she got compared to A: being a feminist B: being someone that was on the receiving end of (mostly empty) death and rape threats. it's no secret that most people are likelier to take interest in something offered by a beautiful looking person, but this isn't the case. literally nobody is going OH SHE'S SO PRETTY I WANT TO donate a certain amount of money so she can research on the subject of females in videogames WHAT A FUCKING BABE
find me a group of posters or thread anywhere talking about how attractive she is and how we should donate based on that. you're keep talking absolute fucking nonsense.
oh so most of the money comes from people that secretly want to fuck her. their fetish is giving money to attractive people. a huge number of men, yet you can't find a small group that actually says it out loud. your argument is complete horseshit and you should drop it for your own sake
RobotMonkeyHead said, Yesterday, 06:42 PM Yes, the average fetish (cross culture and gender) is to "give attractive people money".
which is absolutely not the case here for reasons i've already stated. her being attractive is a very small factor, i've already detailed why and your rebuttals have been essentially meaningless. i consider what you're saying. i consider it inane. she's a feminist. the type of man that gives money to women just because they're hot is a sexist and therefore has zero interest in feminist issues. that type of man would not support this cause. you'll probably reply to this with a wiki link that has jack shit to do with what i said or you'll point out a typo. barf
i've decided to do the research myself (since rmh could not) and find out how many people believe anita sarkeesian is hot http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22anita+sarkeesian+is+hot%22 lol
my search for "anita sarkeesian is hot" got one result in a reddit thread
~what the fuck does that tell you~
Ok, your entire point here is that her money came from 90% feminists and that her looks had very very little to do with anything, right? Your support is that feminists are not concerned with whether or not someone is attractive.
Here's why your point is 'horseshit' (in your own terms):
1) Feminists and gamers overlap, not all feminists are women, not all women are straight, and neither feminists nor gamers are excluded from the list of people who form character assessments based on physical appeal. Saying that feminists are immune to favoring attractive people is just inane. Supporting equal rights for women and men is a completely separate issue from whether or not they are attractive. Feminists are anti-sexist, not anti-sexyist. They do overlap where feminists assert that woman are treated as sex objects, but their attractiveness is not the perceived problem, peoples reaction to it is. Whether morally reprehensible or not, often enough that reaction is very predictable (being that they favor the sexy with undue credibility), which is my point, and is well supported with plenty of research. Not that a bunch of drooling horny straw men want to pay her to let them give her the stick. That's a humorous exaggeration of what I'm saying, that on some base level may be poetically true, but I think it misses a lot of the key details in that people who find her attractive also amount to support and audience (which is kept by her points) as well as funding.
2) Read it, for your own sake. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness_stereotype)
3) The comment I made about her being funded by gamers was just a jab at the people on this thread for giving her attention (which again, if she were a fat balding man, I don't think you/they would have nearly to the same extent), and all of that was admittedly before I'd done any actual reading on this bees nest of hormonal dysfunction.
4) Run on sentence alert: Her looks serve her in the feminist camp because as an attractive woman, she's perceived as being more likely to have experienced being treated with the biases she's opposing, one of which is sexually objectivizing women, making her point somewhat accurate, but at the same time hypocritical, in that being objectivized has worked to her benefit, both in building an audience and playing the damsel over at 4 chan, which is another separate instance of a similar hypocrisy.
5) Clone her, but mess with the clones looks. You have 2 Anitas (oh christ) one looks how she looks, and the other is just road pizza ugly, but with the exact same mind and coarse of action (up to and including dress, hair style makeup and personal 'presentation). Now imagine how the entire thing would play out for both of them, beginning years ago with building an audience. Little to no difference in the 2 scenarios is what you're telling me? I fart in your general direction.
As far as I can tell, barring any new info, my point remains completely sound despite you ignoring the well researched realistic evidence for it. (See #2.) All that in light of the point at hand, I don't mean you any personal disrespect.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 26, 2013, 05:58:01 pm
Or maybe that for the second time, even with me pointing right to it, you've failed to read the part where I said "not out loud" meaning I don't think this is a key talking point for most people (and I can see why) but I do think it's a very heavy factor none the less.
That will still be false until you can prove it. That's just your own speculation that you're forcing onto everyone else, claiming "that's what they really think". Anyone can claim "they're doing this because X, and they'll never admit it, but I know the truth !" Back it up or back up already. Until you can do that, your claim will still be ridiculous.
Quote
1) Feminists and gamers overlap, not all feminists are women, not all women are straight, and neither feminists nor gamers are excluded from the list of people who form character assessments based on physical appeal. Saying that feminists are immune to favoring attractive people is just inane. Supporting equal rights for women and men is a completely separate issue from whether or not they are attractive. Feminists are anti-sexist, not anti-sexyist. They do overlap where feminists assert that woman are treated as sex objects, but their attractiveness is not the perceived problem, peoples reaction to it is. Whether morally reprehensible or not, often enough that reaction is very predictable (being that they favor the sexy with undue credibility), which is my point, and is well supported with plenty of research. Not that a bunch of drooling horny straw men want to pay her to let them give her the stick. That's a humorous exaggeration of what I'm saying, that on some base level may be poetically true, but I think it misses a lot of the key details in that people who find her attractive also amount to support and audience (which is kept by her points) as well as funding.
There's still no relation of causality between one and the other, so don't claim they're funding her because of that, even with all your researches.
Quote
2) Read it, for your own sake.
Still no causality.
Quote
my point remains completely sound despite you ignoring the well researched realistic evidence for it.
There have been researches on a certain subject. You have repeatedly failed to prove that these researches had any sort of application in this case. So your researches are completely useless and not proof of anything.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 26, 2013, 06:16:21 pm
Or maybe that for the second time, even with me pointing right to it, you've failed to read the part where I said "not out loud" meaning I don't think this is a key talking point for most people (and I can see why) but I do think it's a very heavy factor none the less.
That will still be false until you can prove it. That's just your own speculation that you're forcing onto everyone else, claiming "that's what they really think". Anyone can claim "they're doing this because X, and they'll never admit it, but I know the truth !" Back it up or back up already. Until you can do that, your claim will still be ridiculous.
Here's an excerpt from the article I posted. For a bibliography and links to the studies, check the article.
Beauty Premium Phenomenon
Studies show that physical appearance does affect people's concept in which beauty are likely good-better, smart-successful and important-valuable according these fourteen facts:
-Physically attractive people' score is higher than less physically attractive people on measures of affect and mood.[15]
-People tend to believe attractive people as smarter, more successful, more sociable, more dominant, sexually warmer, mentally healthier and higher in selfesteem than their physically unattractive people,[16] but studies show that there is no intelligent difference between attractive people and less attractive people.[17]
-Physically attractive people are more sociable and less socially anxious and lonely than less physically attractive people.[18]
-Physically attractive people are more popular than less attractive people and people are more likely to have a interaction with people who are physically attractive.[19]
-We are more likely to give personal information to physically attractive people than we less physically attractive people.[20]
-Physically attractive person is more likely to be reinforced than physically unattractive person.[21]
-Physically unattractive people are more likely to be identified as psychopaths over physically attractive people.[22]
-Physically attractive people with psychological disturbance are judged to be more maladjusted and to have a poorer prognosis than less physically attractive people with the same psychological disturbance.[23]
-A physically attractive person is more likely to be found not less guilty than less attractive person while they are charged with the same crime.[24]
-Physically unattractive defendants are considered to be more dangerous than better looking offender in sex-related crime.[25]
-Physically attractive individuals found guilty of a particular crime are more likely to receive more nice sentences than less attractive defendants.[26]
-We pay more attentions towards physically attractive strangers than to unattractive strangers of either sex. For example, people avoided sitting next to people with physical deformities.[27]
-Physically attractive people have same reaction when they become addicted to cocaine and gambling.[28]
-People with facial disfigurements and other flaws are more undesirable, even babies seem to prefer physically attractive faces than to physically unattractive ones.[29]
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on March 26, 2013, 06:19:03 pm
That will still be false until you can prove it. That's just your own speculation that you're forcing onto everyone else, claiming "that's what they really think". Anyone can claim "they're doing this because X, and they'll never admit it, but I know the truth !" Back it up or back up already. Until you can do that, your claim will still be ridiculous.
It would have failed if she had been a man, but it's not the reason it worked either.
You're still quoting random researches without proving that this is what actually happened in this case. Your researches are still irrelevant until proven otherwise.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Walt on March 26, 2013, 06:20:20 pm
You guys are some stubborn motherfuckers.
You keep going in circles, on the horse of your repeating arguments over and over getting nowhere, and at this point only the less-than-a-handful of users are the only ones coming back to this thread ... to prove they're right, and ignoring each other's valid points (yeah, I'll give it to you, you both make reasonable points to some extent).
It should stop, seriously. This fucking thread has been plagued and doomed since its begining by repeatedly delving in semantics and trivial nonsense about the PERSON making the study, and nobody is discussing the interesting TOPIC of the study.
Small minds discuss people. Average minds discuss events. Great minds discuss ideas.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 26, 2013, 06:28:05 pm
walt's right - i'm done repeating the same bullshit to someone that replies with irrelevant articles and is unbelievably dense in general
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 26, 2013, 06:30:57 pm
Well, I did ask everyone here respectfully if I should continue with my point or just stop, and no one told me to stop. But seeing as someone actually is now, I guess I will.
I'll give one last response to the idea of 'the person giving the studies' vs 'the topics'. I don't think her topics are new, interesting, groundbreaking or anything that we haven't heard a million and a half times before. I found the instance of her getting all that cash and free games (on top of what looks like her doubtful ability to reciprocate) more interesting than her points, so that's what I've been commenting on. That's about it, really. I do think debate is relatively healthy especially in relevant opinion forming, in so far as it doesn't devolve to personal insult and remains on topic, which (with mild exception) I think has pretty much been the case here.
Anyway, at walt's request I'm leaving this one alone from here out unless someone decides to call me back into the discussion... Peace, and I hope someone gained insight from this stuff. It's certainly made me think a bit.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on March 26, 2013, 06:58:45 pm
Anita Sarkeesian is not even hot. She just looks like a person.
Oh, wait! Does that mean that beauty is subjective and that just because I think someone is hot, doesn't mean thousands of other people also think that that same person is hot and are simultaneously dumb enough to give away money to that person just because they think that person is attractive, all while knowing that they will probably never even physically see that person in their lives and that that person will probably never even acknowledge their individual existences?
Amazing!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on March 26, 2013, 07:14:40 pm
don't bother, rajaa.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 26, 2013, 07:19:12 pm
@rajaa: Do you want to discuss it with me? (I'll take ignoring as a no.)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Walt on March 26, 2013, 07:27:08 pm
Dude, the girl getting the money funded is WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE, and even if you (or even me) assume that she got it because she's hot (subjective assumption, or questionably objective if you want to use statistics), you can't prove it in absolute terms with 100% certainty unless you interview each of the donators (Database might be private, so nope.gif) to get their response as to whether they did it for that specific reason, to which EVEN IF THEY DID will probably deny it out of shame for being shallow.
And so BAM you lose the argument forever and ever, Elvis has left the building, don't even go there anymore, these guys won't let it go, and nobody wins, everybody loses. Period.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 26, 2013, 07:41:06 pm
Ok, back to it I guess.
Man, it's a cross culture, cross gender affect that I'm talking about. I'm basically talking about human nature, not some pseud scientific abstract point that needs to be proven scientifically (which it has, many many many times over). The only thing missing is you people ignoring the evidence that hard science has produced, and ya'll "probably deny it out of shame for being shallow." It doesn't just apply to her, it applies to most people on the average. If your going to say she's exempt from physical attractive stereotyping, I'd say the burden of proof is on you, not me.
Kinda funny, I was just rocking out to Elvis before you posted that.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Nomechy on March 26, 2013, 07:47:45 pm
Well im not going to read back on all that, so could you give me a short version of what your point was?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on March 26, 2013, 07:55:01 pm
Yeah sure: Main point - "Anything that she is right about in calling a problem is pretty much working for her to get her where she is."
Secondary point - "Her popularity is probably due in large part to her appearance." (not saying she doesn't have points, just that they're old points and they probably serve more to keep an audience a lot of whom likely only gave her a shot in the first place based on her appearance. Also I think her points are a far third still in supporting her popularity to the sympathy she got for the bashing she took for calling gamers misogynists.)
I think that about sums it up.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Nomechy on March 26, 2013, 08:11:42 pm
So are you saying that the large majority of the people who donated, did it for her looks?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on March 26, 2013, 08:43:01 pm
Man this topic thread has peaked my own interest that i been posting more than i think i ever posted in any other thread here since i joined years ago ( other than my own and a few select ones lol ) that i can say i enjoy the debates and even moreso the topic. I actually had to take this conversation to work last night for a quick hour discussion since we have both sex of gamers. When i asked about the subject and we began our rounds of debates.. some were heated and really most made alot of on key points. One thing i think that stuck hard and that no one could answer with a serious thought was what i proposed in a question.
If feminists both male and female has issues with the Damsel In Distress theory ( and others labels) and the beauty ( and breasts or sex appeal overall) of said women portrayed in games no matter the roles they play.....what would be the end game to settle the issue? Now for about 15 minutes or more everyone was quiet trying to wrap they heads around the concept. My shift supervisor one response after all that was.. Tetris! lol. But we all understood why he said that even if he was serious or joking. Its gender equality cause there is no male or female anything about it. Our payroll woman ( who is gorgeous ) is a die hard Fighting gamer. Her main thing on the issue was "she doesn't think there will ever be an ideal way to create a game with human features that will ever be acceptable to anyone that has issues revolving around gender equality".
No matter what kind of game either a fighting game, platformer, rpg , a dating sim or pretty much anything that has a hint of gender realism even if its total customize fantasy based.... there will be an issue outside of game play mechanics that will dive into gender equality to those who will find something to run on with it. it has been done thousands of times for decades in gaming that feature male and female genders and their roles in said games.
My thoughts on Anita are still the same, to me she has some scam issues about her. The donations part of it is to say " So the plot thickens!" lol. I don't see any logic in supporting her ( with donations to be exact) "cause' in something that has been discussed back when i was a kid in the early 80's and 90's of gaming that featured male and female characters and roles of them that was done for free with close to same exact themes and critiques, If i too can go ask for donations for something that is talked about for free and give reviews of them and i can get people to pay me thousands of dollars ....I need to quit my job or take a part time gig and start coming up with stuff too that will get under certain peoples skin that will support me...blindly of sorts.. without looking farther into the whole scheme. lmao just joking..... but i seriously from reading all that was linked to her... her end game is money..not concrete belief in her views as a feminist. Thats just my opinion based on all i have read and researched about her with this topic and others..
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 26, 2013, 09:31:33 pm
So are you saying that the large majority of the people who donated, did it for her looks?
yes, he has been saying that since the start, going as far as saying its because she is sexually attractive to them. He is objectifying her and saying that its just how the real world works. She couldnt possibly have garnered attention to the topic via her own means without using sex appeal. ( he even used the example of a sexy poster of Megan Fox garnering attention )
It reminds me the sarcastic lyrics of Emilie Autumn "Thank god I'm pretty, for now every skill I ever have will be in question."
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Nomechy on March 26, 2013, 09:40:37 pm
Her being pretty can certainly have a positive effect when people consider if they are going to donate for her, but saying that her prettiness alone got her over 200.000 dollars for a feminist youtube video series is pretty absurb.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on March 26, 2013, 10:15:23 pm
update on the mean brothers thing: http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57576194-1/trolls-take-on-9-year-old-girls-kickstarter-project...and-lose/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title They are claiming that the woman that started the campaign is a victim of trolling.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on March 26, 2013, 10:23:49 pm
-We are more likely to give personal information to physically attractive people than we less physically attractive people.[20]
OH CMON RMH BRO! Lmao! even tho man i found alot of that stuff listed to be some utter nonsense in some regards if based on "statistics" of say 100 people are non logical and go by appearance as their main focus of motivations to do , say , give and judge an individual quite possibly have some serious embedded personal issues.
I do not care how cute or gorgeous a woman is.. She is NOT getting my personal info cause i think she is attractive and asks for it. Attractiveness does not garner trust. Thats not even rational thinking to give away your personal info. People who would do that....Morons. If someone is easily swayed basing any of their judgement on Anita (or anyone's attractiveness factor ) to give her money with even a hint that because she is attractive to them so they trust her...A fool and his money are soon departed. lol
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bea on March 26, 2013, 10:57:03 pm
C.R.O.M Lando is right on the money with his assertion.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on April 01, 2013, 11:44:32 pm
So apparently in the last few weeks there's this French gaming-blogging chick who chimed in on Tomb Raider and feminism - except it went better. The game itself doesn't actually show much even on the concept of rape : there's only one scene that lasts for like 5 seconds with a big guy getting a bit close to Lara who has her hands tied in her back, before Lara struggles on the ground to break free and blows the guy's brain off, the struggle not being any different from if it had been a male protagonist (mug slinging, kicking and leg pulling). But then there's this article in a French gaming magazine that went with machismo "humor", saying this stuff was almost exciting and such and talking about hardcore SM. And said gaming girl went down hard on that kind of reaction, rather than on the game itself, which is, all in all, a lot softer than you would expect in reality (especially from a whole village of dudes who have been trapped on an island for decades, seriously I don't remember seeing a single woman from the island). So while the game itself wasn't particularly sexist, the reactions it got went overboard ; and the feminist take on that went up against that, which is, I believe, a lot more logical, justified, and efficient. (no, I don't have a link to either the article or the blog, I'm just reading a few summaries)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on April 05, 2013, 03:26:08 am
-We are more likely to give personal information to physically attractive people than we less physically attractive people.[20]
OH CMON RMH BRO! Lmao! even tho man i found alot of that stuff listed to be some utter nonsense in some regards if based on "statistics" of say 100 people are non logical and go by appearance as their main focus of motivations to do , say , give and judge an individual quite possibly have some serious embedded personal issues.
I do not care how cute or gorgeous a woman is.. She is NOT getting my personal info cause i think she is attractive and asks for it. Attractiveness does not garner trust. Thats not even rational thinking to give away your personal info. People who would do that....Morons. If someone is easily swayed basing any of their judgement on Anita (or anyone's attractiveness factor ) to give her money with even a hint that because she is attractive to them so they trust her...A fool and his money are soon departed. lol
Look man, those aren't my ideas, they're quoted from a very relevant wiki article. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness_stereotype) It's an old study, but here it is (http://psp.sagepub.com/content/12/4/414.abstract), if want to dispute it's validity you might want to check it out. Same with that wiki article. Personally I believe it to an extent. I figure you have 2000 people, 1000 are presented with an unattractive person who is nonchalantly trying to get some kind of personal info, who knows what, might be birthday, and 1000 are presented with dead sexy gorgeous trying sneakily to get the same info. I'd bet large amounts of money that sexy is going to come up with more success. How much more, maybe just a little, but more, certainly. What you're saying about pretty isn't getting your personal info I think is intelligent, and props to Bea for agreeing, I would also like to think the same for myself personally, but on the average... think wal-mart. Not everyone is making decisions from a purely rational standpoint and a lot of the time I think biology (be it emotions or reproductive drive or whatever) can easily skew a persons reasoning. I've seen it happen enough. Of course you can believe whatever you want, but my inclination is sexy's gettin more info.
So are you saying that the large majority of the people who donated, did it for her looks?
yes, he has been saying that since the start, going as far as saying its because she is sexually attractive to them. He is objectifying her and saying that its just how the real world works. She couldnt possibly have garnered attention to the topic via her own means without using sex appeal. ( he even used the example of a sexy poster of Megan Fox garnering attention )
It reminds me the sarcastic lyrics of Emilie Autumn "Thank god I'm pretty, for now every skill I ever have will be in question."
Iced, man, nothing personal, but please stop straw-maning and oversimplifying my point. It's entirely obvious that your painting a deliberately stupefied picture of what I'm saying here, for whatever reason. Read my posts carefully hombre before you go trying to paint me as some kind of sexist pig. You can knock that shit off right about now, because given my level of candidness in this conversation I think it's easily fair to say that if I were sexist, I would own it.
What I'm saying Lolmechy, is to honestly ask yourself this question: If she were a completely unattractive woman (by an average of standards) in her late 40's (but with the same effort delivery and style) do you think she would have been able to garner the same level of attention that she's gotten? If so, fine. I don't. I think her looks create a lot of her draw (however subconsciously on the part of her audience) and that her points are what then keep them around. (Get that this time Iced?) I think her ability to speak the same rehashed shit (not that I think it's completely invalid) that's been kickin around for the last 30 or 40 years is only a factor after her appeal, as evidenced by the throng of more experienced, more qualified, more persuasive, better spoken, and older feminists out there. Shit ain't new, and to be fair, I Might even go as far as to say women kick as much ass in media as men do now. If not, certainly more than in the past, and where she may still have some points they're well on their way to diminishing.
To go even a little further, I think her playing the damsel at 4chan was helped by her appearance. I don't think people would have As Readily come to the financial aid of someone they perceived to be hideously ugly just on her points. They're last decades newspaper. Sad maybe, irrational maybe, human nature maybe but I've seen sexy get away with all sorts of shit that ugly doesn't in my own life. Call it what you want, I call it realistic. Now to be clear sexyism is Very different from sexism, which brings me to my main point: The shit she is bitching about is working out hugely to her advantage, and she's letting it. She plays the 'wronged hottie', she played the 'pretty damsel' and I don't really care what else, and I think she does it for cash, which there's nothing wrong with, it's just a bit hypocritical in my opinion. If she were volunteering, or if she had cut off the donations before they reached $158,000 I might think more of her sincerity, but I think she's working the playing field in ways I would be surprised if she could even admit to herself.
That's the last time I want to explain it. If anyone else is still interested, read the last page or 2. I feel like I've explained myself as well as I care to, and I haven't seen anything dissuasive enough to change my mind up till now. Unless I do, I'll probably just quote my own posts from here on out, but I feel like I've said enough.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Nicobee on April 11, 2013, 05:58:12 am
they're quoted from a very relevant wiki article. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_attractiveness_stereotype)
You're seriously still quoting that article that you could never prove had anything to do with the discussion ?? Let it go, man, that article is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on April 13, 2013, 08:39:27 pm
The guy behind Dresden Codak ( that previously had setup a kickstarter where one of the goals for 700k was to make a strip a week and was called out on it by Andrew Hussie) knowing zero about Zelda based himself on the video made by Anita and decided to fix Zelda.
How do you fix Zelda?
By gender swapping everyone. http://dresdencodak.tumblr.com/post/47724463171/inspired-by-anita-sarkeesians-video-game-tropes
Now its not sexist anymore.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/b57e7dccc5a83ac5281fb3c92a4750b8/tumblr_ml3zfsJvde1qcbajko2_1280.jpg) You bloody cis scum should be lucky to have protags like this!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Cazaki on April 13, 2013, 08:52:59 pm
-We are more likely to give personal information to physically attractive people than we less physically attractive people.[20]
OH CMON RMH BRO! Lmao! even tho man i found alot of that stuff listed to be some utter nonsense in some regards if based on "statistics" of say 100 people are non logical and go by appearance as their main focus of motivations to do , say , give and judge an individual quite possibly have some serious embedded personal issues.
I do not care how cute or gorgeous a woman is.. She is NOT getting my personal info cause i think she is attractive and asks for it. Attractiveness does not garner trust. Thats not even rational thinking to give away your personal info. People who would do that....Morons. If someone is easily swayed basing any of their judgement on Anita (or anyone's attractiveness factor ) to give her money with even a hint that because she is attractive to them so they trust her...A fool and his money are soon departed. lol
I know this is an old post but you should be more likely to give away personal information to an attractive person than unattractive. That's how most of us talk to girls. :2thumbsup:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: blackstar on April 13, 2013, 09:22:03 pm
I don't get it...if it's exactly the same...what's the point of gender swapping everything?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on April 13, 2013, 09:52:12 pm
The point is gender-swapping.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Caddie on April 17, 2013, 08:08:27 pm
EVERY POST AFTER THIS
Keep this topic about Feminist study of games, not arguing about stupid shit like the subjectiveness of attractiveness. There's another topic for that.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on April 22, 2013, 04:06:56 pm
I know this is an old post but you should be more likely to give away personal information to an attractive person than unattractive. That's how most of us talk to girls. :2thumbsup:
;D well Lando is almost 40 ( just had my 39th birthday on april 10th...yay) and i talk to women not girls so i cant relate to giving my info to a random pretty girl. I get what you saying tho. lol HMMM but if i can talk to a woman who is attractive with just 5 bucks in my pocket...why should i even think to give her personal info? ;D The pimp game is strong bro. lol. :2thumbsup: Still even tho the woman i deal with is very attractive and highly intelligent , do you seriously think i am gonna give her my social security number and driver license number because she attractive? Hell to the no. thats makes total utter no sense at all and very non rational thinking for a grown man/adult. Now if i was married... yes but to some random beautiful chica...Nawwwww. Never. lol.
@ RMH. sorry for the late reply bro. lol. Well in this study of feminism i think the discussion is moreso about what her views are and not wether the attractiveness of her plays a real part of it. I personally just cannot justify that to be a big reason cause... it can't be proven thats the case. thats moreso maybe your personal observation of the reasons for the donations being so high and how she is so easily recieving money. Those percetages on those studies are just crazy man. you gonna have me do some research on that for real. lol :2thumbsup:
I honestly think if Anita or any person who is gonna discuss the feminisms of gaming have to step it up more than rehashing same logics we have heard time and time again to drive a point. If anything do so that brings new light to the case.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Cazaki on April 22, 2013, 08:19:21 pm
Well I wasn't referring to stuff like SSN or driver license of course. Just regular information, phone, name, previous experiences, address, etc.
What I'm really trying to say that if you put it on a basic level we are more likely to do give away info (exchange info I should say) to people who we find attractive. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: RobotMonkeyHead on April 22, 2013, 11:04:22 pm
I know this is an old post but you should be more likely to give away personal information to an attractive person than unattractive. That's how most of us talk to girls. :2thumbsup:
and i talk to women not girls so i cant relate to giving my info to a random pretty girl. I get what you saying tho. lol HMMM but if i can talk to a woman who is attractive with just 5 bucks in my pocket...why should i even think to give her personal info? ;D The pimp game is strong bro. lol. :2thumbsup:
haha dude all that stuff about giving hot people personal info (exactly what info, i don't know) is just one little snip-it from the article I posted that people actually responded to. I don't know, seems reasonable to me, but to what extent, I honestly have no idea. And again, yeah I think more intelligent peeps are probably less likely to give up the important info. Unless, yeah, they're single and he/she's smokin hot, cause... well... yeah.
@ RMH. sorry for the late reply bro. lol. Well in this study of feminism i think the discussion is moreso about what her views are and not wether the attractiveness of her plays a real part of it. I personally just cannot justify that to be a big reason cause... it can't be proven thats the case. thats moreso maybe your personal observation of the reasons for the donations being so high and how she is so easily recieving money. Those percetages on those studies are just crazy man. you gonna have me do some research on that for real. lol :2thumbsup:
Yeah it's certainly my own personal observation, and I'm stickin to it, but hey if you see it differently power to diversity of mind.
I honestly think if Anita or any person who is gonna discuss the feminisms of gaming have to step it up more than rehashing same logics we have heard time and time again to drive a point. If anything do so that brings new light to the case.
Yeah, that's kinda why I lean toward 'other factors' myself but whatevs, I'm pretty spent on the issue honestly, so I doubt I'll be doing any more responding on this thread. Cheers, and happy b-day again man!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: C.R.O.M Lando on April 23, 2013, 03:58:27 am
lol Thanx for the reply and bday shout out RMH bro. Its was a great Bday man. lol
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on April 28, 2013, 12:37:45 am
The funniest thing? It seems while we are all talking about irrelevant things, Anita already made up to the 4th video in her series apparently...but also apparently, no one has given a damn since then lol.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on April 28, 2013, 01:54:59 am
The funniest thing? It seems while we are all talking about irrelevant things, Anita already made up to the 4th video in her series apparently...but also apparently, no one has given a damn since then lol.
Are you talking about us or the Internet.
Because if it is the latter, then it is a sign that we moved on from such things.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on April 28, 2013, 02:13:15 am
i havent heard about it anywhere else on the internet so i guess most people moved on. good because shes bad at this
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on April 28, 2013, 03:19:43 am
The funniest thing? It seems while we are all talking about irrelevant things, Anita already made up to the 4th video in her series apparently...but also apparently, no one has given a damn since then lol.
what are you talking about? both her youtube and her website have nothing about that http://www.youtube.com/user/feministfrequency?feature=watch http://www.feministfrequency.com/
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on April 28, 2013, 03:44:30 am
The funniest thing? It seems while we are all talking about irrelevant things, Anita already made up to the 4th video in her series apparently...but also apparently, no one has given a damn since then lol.
And where are the other videos you are talking about?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Wolf on April 28, 2013, 04:31:41 am
what if she removed the videos herself because nobody cared and then she is going to spread rumors that she was censored and have people pay attention to her again [avatar]http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb404/Bastard-Wolf/avatars/uiharuBIG.png[/avatar] .... that or xhominid is just wrong about the videos
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on April 28, 2013, 04:57:58 am
Hmm...
Nothing about the fourth videos.
But I am glad the Internet move on.
We do not want to fan the flames.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on April 28, 2013, 06:38:52 am
I said apparently because when I looked at my recommendations, I saw what looked like one of her Tropes Vs. Women videos at #4.
And I tried to stress apparently as hard as I did, because she DOES have a Tropes vs. Women non-part in Manic Pixie Girl for awhile now.
So my apologies since I messed up then. (For the record, This is what I'm seeing on my Recommendations right now: #4 The Evil Demon Seductress (Tropes vs. Women) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VeCjm1UO4M)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on April 28, 2013, 07:06:21 am
did you consider looking at the upload date
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on April 28, 2013, 07:29:12 am
did you consider looking at who has moderator status in the gaming boards
I know Tempest is the moderator, I just don't want to get something blown out of proportion over something I already apologized over.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on April 28, 2013, 08:25:50 pm
Mistakes happen.
I did check up on one of those videos after, she seems to have a lot of wrong stuff in there, she was criticizing the powerpuff girls for having this as an enemy (http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ld6pe3K70t1qd3poio1_500.png)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: San2 on April 28, 2013, 09:20:08 pm
She's just a strawfeminist created by the patriarchy behind PPG.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on April 28, 2013, 10:15:57 pm
I did check up on one of those videos after, she seems to have a lot of wrong stuff in there, she was criticizing the powerpuff girls for having this as an enemy (http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ld6pe3K70t1qd3poio1_500.png)
I know, it seems Anita kinda forgets the point of character types like that one... http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StrawFeminist
She ALSO forgets that there's a male counterpart as well...(well...not exactly a real counterpart, but it's close to it.)
It really shows how either mis-informed she is, or just plain out of touch. The main reason that villain even EXISTS is because of people like Anita in the first place. Instead of seeing the good in things or simply giving some things a chance, they instead mainly whine and complain that there MUST be something deeper rather than simple explanations on why these things are happening in the first place...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on April 28, 2013, 11:56:55 pm
the character was actually manipulating people using the premise of feminism just to make a profit for herself the episode ends with other women that she attacked and injured explaining that feminism should be about equality and not an excuse to do whatever they want for profit.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on April 29, 2013, 02:46:18 am
That is true.
No one should abuse a cause to line their pockets.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on April 29, 2013, 07:33:53 am
the character was actually manipulating people using the premise of feminism just to make a profit for herself the episode ends with other women that she attacked and injured explaining that feminism should be about equality and not an excuse to do whatever they want for profit.
That is so ironic, it fucking hurts and is so damn funny considering her and Anita's position then...
No wonder she attacked that episode then.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: blackstar on May 01, 2013, 12:03:15 am
This is why gaming 'Feminism' is a complete and utter joke which deserves zero respect: http://www.gameranx.com/features/id/12973/article/ps4-it-s-not-for-girls/
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on May 01, 2013, 12:45:28 am
I wonder if she was also bothered by the lack of Black people, Muslims, and/or Evangelical Christians of a born-again denominations. It's disturbing that only a little bit of Black people actually represent Sony. They should just add some Black people to their organization just for the fuck of it -- wouldn't want to offend anyone in this increasingly oversensitive culture.
To be honest, though, I was fucking offended by the lack of people wearing red. Red represents who I am and lots of people wear red. In fact, 90% of people, even 3rd world countries, own a piece of red clothing. It saddens me that us red wearing people weren't accurately represented by a company that doesn't even really need to give a fuck about us. How dare they. I'm so appalled that I'm gonna make a Facebook status telling them fools why I'm mad.
Wow. All of her arguments are stupid and she should quit the internet.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on May 01, 2013, 10:23:53 am
I wonder if she was also bothered by the lack of Black people, Muslims, and/or Evangelical Christians of a born-again denominations. It's disturbing that only a little bit of Black people actually represent Sony. They should just add some Black people to their organization just for the fuck of it -- wouldn't want to offend anyone in this increasingly oversensitive culture.
To be honest, though, I was fucking offended by the lack of people wearing red. Red represents who I am and lots of people wear red. In fact, 90% of people, even 3rd world countries, own a piece of red clothing. It saddens me that us red wearing people weren't accurately represented by a company that doesn't even really need to give a fuck about us. How dare they. I'm so appalled that I'm gonna make a Facebook status telling them fools why I'm mad.
Wow. All of her arguments are stupid and she should quit the internet.
I read skimmed the article after the first paragraph and I wanted to bang my head on the wall...till I get a concussion.
You also stated everything I wanted to say...and as someone in the comment section stated: "This sexism agenda stuff is getting out of hand" And it damn sure is when this article is one of the many.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on May 02, 2013, 01:40:24 pm
I also looked through the article and it is full of fail all around. Especially from a logical standpoint:
"Sony is sexist because they do not have female presenters!!!11!"
Or, maybe the reason why the presenters are all men because they are also high ranking developers who know a lot about the projects they are working on.
And the article complains about the lack of women in the video game industry. Well, if you are going to complain about the state of the industry, do something about it! Be the solution instead of sitting around all day and writing articles!
And maybe the reason why most developers are male because all of them are also the most qualified for the job.
Seriously, this whole video games and feminist thing really got too much out of hand ever since the Tropes vs Women in Video Games. I hope that the Internet moves on from such things, which is probably soon.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on May 29, 2013, 01:26:01 am
And.... we're back.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on May 29, 2013, 01:38:26 am
lol four minutes in and she has already claimed ico and hitman absolution to be sexist and disregarded any action taken by women in double dragon and hitman absolution as being pseudo tokens.
The hitman absolution girl ( on whose safety the plot hinged ) has a cutscene where she kills a bunch of people, realizes what she is doing and reels in on that for a bit, shocked, getting captured again. This was used in the plot as she being genetically encoded with the killer instinct that 47 also had, and is meant to show that they are more alike than it seems at first, but ofcourse it would be a tokenization of females as victims that need men to rescue them.
edit: Ugh. She just called infamous sexist for the moral choice plot point
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
you are given the chance of saving five doctors in a town dying of plague , or your girlfriend, no matter what you choose she dies in the end. So even if you are not rescuing her, its a sexist situation.
Also dead space is sexist because his girlfriend was dead the whole time.
edit: and she just started laughing on camera about bionic commando because
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
his wife has been used to manufacture his bionic arm and is thus always at his side.
oh dear kron she just used Jill in resident evil five as an example of mysoginistic use of women that are begging for you to put them down and then even thank you for it. "these stories bring out supernatural situations where domestic violence perpetrated by men against women that lost control of themselves not only appears justified but its presented as an altruistic act done for the women's own good"
I will never look at jill boss fight the same way again.
"these stories are about the loss of masculinity" while a clip of max payne plays with him saying he wont forgive himself over the death of his little girl. ... the story point there is not about how he is less masculine over losing his daughter , god damn thats some autistic logic going on there, she pretty much says he is sad about losing someone he loved, thus he feels less male because he wasnt able to protect his possessions.
...and she just used passage, a tiny indie game where you just walk right and your sprites age and then die of old age as the correct way to show women's death in gaming in an innovative way... She could have talked of unfinished swan, but nope, passage.
And she just dubbed the games using violence as being about the male protagonists inadequacies and then promised a third part of the damsels in distress.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bea on May 29, 2013, 02:22:11 am
Okay, watching that one actually made me sick, so bad it was. I actually threw up after watching it.
This girl is a bomb and a tragedy for the feminist cause. She has NO FUCKING idea about what she's talking about. She's over thinking everything to find abuse and make evil and pigs.
Seriously, she needs to shut up because she is doing FAR TOO MUCH harm for us who are actually trying to strive for equality.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on May 29, 2013, 02:36:41 am
Not even gonna bother watching unless it's uploaded elsewhere, not giving her a hit and I'm honestly getting tired of her stupidity as well.
P.S. I forgot, this is DiD PART 2! It took her 2 MONTHS to make a second part....WHAT THE FUCK! At this point, people need to realize Anita just stole their money because there is no freaking way that she needed $160000 or even $6000 to make this Piece of Shit and yet still take this much time to make another part of a FOURTEEN(or thirteen) part video series...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: TempesT on May 29, 2013, 03:40:49 am
Her eyebrows are distracting.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on May 29, 2013, 04:04:56 am
Fuck, who needs video games when I can just read you all getting mad over these videos. This shit is the best entertainment.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on May 29, 2013, 04:28:02 am
sexism here, sexism there, sexism everywhere.
When you are obsessed with sexism in video games, that is all you see in a game.
No plot, no graphical beauty, no fun. Only sexism and more sexism.
Fuck, who needs video games when I can just read you all getting mad over these videos. This shit is the best entertainment.
If I have donated money with the expectation of seeing highly quality videos but got this crap instead, I would be so mad about her wasting money to produce such substandard product while I would be mad at myself on wasting money like that.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on May 29, 2013, 09:19:38 am
check out her ears, Mr bean , once you notice you can not notice it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on July 27, 2013, 09:07:49 pm
The third video of Damsel in Distress will be released next week.
Quote
My 3rd and final video covering the Damsel in Distress trope in video games will be released early next week. This episode tackles the Dude in Distress role reversal and “ironic-sexism" in indie games.
The third video of Damsel in Distress will be released next week.
Quote
My 3rd and final video covering the Damsel in Distress trope in video games will be released early next week. This episode tackles the Dude in Distress role reversal and “ironic-sexism" in indie games.
I can't wait to hear what she has to say about the "Dude in Distress" lol.
Oh dear god...
Just let this horrific torture end...I seen her 2nd video through someones' rebuttal and it made me generally sick. It doesn't help new info has shown up that most of the actual "playing" came from other people's LP's has surfaced...god, why won't she just disappear?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on July 27, 2013, 09:32:34 pm
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on July 27, 2013, 09:47:06 pm
it is true from what i see. i could see why one would use LP footage to save time, i'd do it if i wanted to talk about a game but didn't want to waste time recording certain scenes, and nobody knows for sure how many of the games that she got with the kickstarter money she actually played. however, "give me money to buy a shitload of games so i can talk about unreleased games and use other people's game footage (without crediting them) for my research" looks scummy no matter what.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on July 27, 2013, 09:53:18 pm
the other accusation seems more serious, the one where they say the things she is talking are just the material avaliable on tv tropes, although this explains her being unaware of several scenes on the games she talks about.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on July 27, 2013, 09:58:58 pm
the other accusation seems more serious, the one where they say the things she is talking are just the material avaliable on tv tropes, although this explains her being unaware of several scenes on the games she talks about.
Don't forget Wikipedia on that matter as well.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on July 27, 2013, 10:06:53 pm
wikipedia doesnt really observe games in feminist povs, but tvtropes I can see doing that.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on July 27, 2013, 10:48:06 pm
Woah boy, that is a textbook definition of plagiarism right there.
Not crediting her sources? If that does not blow her credibility and reputation out of the water, I don't know WHAT will.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on August 02, 2013, 03:32:43 pm
So the third Video is out now, I find it kind of funny that she says that the "half naked chippendale" guy in Spelunky HD is not some kind of Cliché or Stereotype.^^
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: タイタニックリバース on August 02, 2013, 03:38:58 pm
I believe women and men can both be equals in everything, but to the point of over ficitilization, don't they do it for men too?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on August 02, 2013, 03:45:23 pm
Not crediting her sources? If that does not blow her credibility and reputation out of the water, I don't know WHAT will.
That's pretty tame, you forget that those who care about formalities like giving credit are likely to already have found all the other flaws in her presentation (one-sided, taking specific parts out of any context etc.), and those who still give her credit are those who don't care about those things in the first place (they probably won't even hear of it or look for that kind of info).
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on August 02, 2013, 06:46:06 pm
Oh, I know all of that too.
But it does bother me that a person with a master's degree would not ask permission to use the footage nor give proper credit to the original creators of the footage. She KNOWS that doing something like this would get her in trouble within a professional or academic setting, yet she still does it.
And, coming from a person who has videos on Youtube, I, too, would get mad if someone used my footage for their purposes without permission or credit.
Not to mention that she has a boatload of money. Is she too cheap to purchase a video-game recording set, buy a few games, and have herself or a hired hand play the game for game-play footage? That would be a mere fraction of all of the money raised, would avoid all of this trouble of stealing people's footage, and could help her avoid mistakes that would give the impression that she is not using the money as intended.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: shin. [OFWGKTA] on August 02, 2013, 09:53:15 pm
man it would be interesting if she did a case-specific study based on genres, companies, etc instead of making broad sweeping statements about universal trends that have little relationship to one another(unless she's tying it into zeitgeist and how the media portrays women, how the era reflects gender roles etc). that'd be cooler than this video series which turns the topic into a game of by playing a game of "look at all these reductive stereotypes i can point out"
too bad it's her doing this study and not someone who actually knows something about the topic
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on August 03, 2013, 12:51:14 am
castle crashers without mentioning of the pink gay knight whose sales were towards breast cancer awareness
reasoning for why dude in distress isnt as bad as damsel in distress -theres fewer women as heroes in media, nicely ignored there how gaming pushed that envelope for years and not just when "buffy" was popular as she tried to point out. -women as damsels in distress reinforce the negative perception they are weak and need protection for being women, men being the ones in distress isnt worrying because theres no longstanding tradition of them being peril for being weak because they are men.
-spellunky hd added an option to replace the victim woman with a dog or a chippendale muscled hunk, she complains because a woman can be interchangeable with a dog and then complains that the chippendale muscled hunk doesnt matter because he is a man. The male victim isnt a problem but the woman victim is a problem, how does this woman still get an audience.
fucking fez, really, the game where the creator demanded people to choke on his cock.
>:C>:C>:C She just talked positively about fez for being a good game without bad women representation and then pointed out ghost trick as being a bad game with damsels in distress.
FEZ the game where the author went "CHOKE ON MY DICK", guess she thinks he is right and we should choke on his dick
with her shit eating grin she dismisses monkey island as a game that couldnt be a deconstruction because its based on a MALE perspective and then goes on to give her own concept on how a game would have to be. her concept that is better than monkey island: Damsel in distress realizes no one is coming, escapes magically, steals guard uniform, faces a forest of villains and levels up ( wait its a rpg now?) enters her old kingdom to find out she is a traitor so she stealths around finding disguises (wait its a stealth assassin creed game?) to enter the castle face the king and abolish monarchy.
lol she now has a "clips used in this video are used under fair use as scholarship "thing at the end.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on August 27, 2013, 08:49:52 pm
Quote
Internet Sleuths uncover Anita Sarkeesian's past; Discover a history of lies, scam artistry and (Boyfriend?) Jonathan Mcintosh pulling the strings for personal gain. http://anongamer.tumblr.com/
that's a lot of words for anyone that still cares about this idiot. not a very interesting read from what ive heard
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on August 27, 2013, 10:01:49 pm
Internet Sleuths uncover Anita Sarkeesian's past; Discover a history of lies, scam artistry and (Boyfriend?) Jonathan Mcintosh pulling the strings for personal gain. http://anongamer.tumblr.com/
that's a lot of words for anyone that still cares about this idiot. not a very interesting read from what ive heard
Sadly, until her video series is done, people are STILL gonna care about this idiot(mainly the Media, just see how Killer is Dead is being treated) and we have to deal with this nonsense.
And I read that tumblr tag, it does have some stuff in there that shows she is pretty hypocritical before becoming the raging "feminist" we all hate, but it's so bland it's pretty hard to see what the point is.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on August 28, 2013, 11:20:40 pm
Can anyone summarize the information?
I am still trying to wrap my head around this, but all I'm getting is that Anita Sarkeesian is a lying, scamming, con-artist.
Nothing new if that is the case.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on August 28, 2013, 11:33:56 pm
Tropes vs Women in Video Games has easily been worth it just to see Iced get worked up over nothing and make a bunch of Bad PostsTM
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on August 29, 2013, 03:13:48 am
Has this been discussed? She admits to not playing video games.
Even without admitting it, it was very clear based on her stealing LP footage and getting a lot of her facts wrong.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 16, 2013, 01:42:36 am
she is the type of feminist who is just a man hater anyway, so whether or not she is a gamer is much less relevant to her study than the fact that she is a man hater.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bea on September 16, 2013, 01:59:30 am
she is the type of feminist who is just a man hater anyway, so whether or not she is a gamer is much less relevant to her study than the fact that she is a man hater.
This, so much this.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on September 16, 2013, 03:20:33 am
Has this been discussed? She admits to not playing video games.
This should have been obvious since Day Forever... Most of her information came not from experience, but from Wikipedia, she seems to be a huge fan of taking things out of context and...
she is the type of feminist who is just a man hater anyway, so whether or not she is a gamer is much less relevant to her study than the fact that she is a man hater.
So much fucking this...
I'll watch that other video later...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: The Fisher King on September 16, 2013, 03:32:53 am
she is the type of feminist who is just a man hater anyway, so whether or not she is a gamer is much less relevant to her study than the fact that she is a man hater.
Exactly.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on September 16, 2013, 07:03:47 am
Has this been discussed? She admits to not playing video games.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcPIu3sDkEw[/youtube] Thank me later.
Finally watched that video, it was already pretty damn obvious considering the evidence more and more people bring up, but this honestly should be the nail in the coffin and invalidate her argument or atleast invalidate her as the right person for this.
Seriously, paying almost 160K$ for this level of trite is absolutely disgusting...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Saohc on September 16, 2013, 07:28:47 pm
I've only lurked through this thread, but I think what we have here is an attention whore. Really, she seems afraid to come out and speak the truth.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on September 16, 2013, 07:36:07 pm
I've only lurked through this thread, but I think what we have here is an attention whore. Really, she seems afraid to come out and speak the truth.
That she's not the right person for this? That she's a complete con artist only looking for her own skin? Because I thought that was obvious after the fact none of the money people gave her actually went anywhere but her own pocket...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on September 16, 2013, 10:41:49 pm
just saw the video and I dont think it will affect anyone that supports her one bit.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on September 16, 2013, 10:55:14 pm
just saw the video and I dont think it will affect anyone that supports her one bit.
Of course, they are complete sheep, who cares about them? If anything, this needs to be for those that are still on the fence or for the gaming media and industry as a whole...
And now, I'm watching many rebuttal videos again...dammit.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: SNT on November 18, 2013, 10:19:16 pm
Bumping because the non-gamer has a new video out. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqYLfm1rWA) In it, she talks about how female characters twenty or thirty years ago were often just pink recolors of existing male characters.
(http://i.imgur.com/1yAn2jP.jpg)
Also, did you know Dixie Kong was just a female clone of Diddy Kong, and was subsequently shunned from the main games, not given her own numbered sequel in the Donkey Kong Country serie- hang on a minute (http://i.imgur.com/vBn8UUY.jpg)...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on November 18, 2013, 11:15:05 pm
isnt it odd that shes complaining about females having lipstick and earrings when she is dressed like that?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bea on November 18, 2013, 11:31:32 pm
Oh dear gods... just why? Why can't she just shut the fuck up?'
Edit: And never mind that Heike Kagero is Super Punch Out! wears make up because he is a Kabuki... -_- He was obviously designed that way to emasculate him, of course. -_-
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Nomechy on November 18, 2013, 11:36:38 pm
Because money.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on January 21, 2014, 05:14:30 am
Bumping this thread thanks to this article (which is interestingly on the Official Nintendo Magazine and all).
Source (don't click if you feel it's clickbait) http://www.officialnintendomagazine.co.uk/56737/blog/senran-kagura-burst-is-damaging-the-industry-heres-how-to-stop-it/?page=2
Quote
Let's be clear, there is absolutely no justification for this whatsoever: it is blatant objectification of women and their bodies. For those new to the world of feminism (more on that later), objectification simply means that someone (pretty much always a woman) is being treated not as a human but as a "thing" for others (pretty much always men) to ogle at.
And yet, in the last couple of years we've had Dead or Alive Dimensions, Code of Princess, and now this, all featuring scantily-clad women for no other reason than (presumably) to attract men to the games. Well, here's your fun fact for the day: the Entertainment Software Association estimates that 45% of all gamers are female. As well as that, there are more women who are 18 or older than boys age 17 or younger playing games. So when games like this are produced, presumably to be marketed at young men and boys, it seems that publishers are alienating almost half of their potential market (possibly more when it comes to Nintendo consoles, which have been hugely popular with women).
Those figures are impressive, and a huge turnaround from what the gaming population looked like even ten years ago. However, just because there's more women playing games now, does that mean that these games are ok? Absolutely not. For starters, it's alienating to women who play games: I find it extremely unlikely that any female gamer is going to be drawn in by the proliferation of breasts throughout the game and it's accompanying art. In fact, this kind of game sends out the message that gaming is only for males, and thus is alienating to women gamers.
But just because there are more women playing games, it doesn't mean that the gaming industry is "fixed". Think about the number of women you see in gaming podcasts, working in gaming publications or websites, or working as programmers or developers within studios themselves: gaming is still very much a male-dominated industry - and suffers as a result, due to an inherent lack of balance. If this lack of balance is to be corrected, is this type of attitude going to encourage that to happen? Clearly, the answer is no.
You don't need to have hugely strong views on this to realise it's wrong - most people wouldn't call themselves feminists (although, if you believe this sort of thing is wrong and you think women should be treated equally to men - congratulations, you're a feminist, welcome to the club!) but can still acknowledge that this form of entertainment is foul.
Senran Kagura is one of the worst types of game around. It's insulting to the intelligence of gamers, damaging to the reputation of the industry, and alienating and harmful to women (both inside and outside the gaming community and industry). So, do yourself, and the wider community a favour: don't read articles about its release. Try not to Youtube it. Avoid reviews. And certainly don't buy it.
But do try to talk to other gamers you know about it. If this game can provide one good, it can force a conversation that has quietly been going on within gaming circles for a while to the fore, and ensure that it's addressed once and for all. Gaming still has a reputation for being just for hormonal sweaty teenage boys in their bedrooms, and as the vast majority of people reading this will know it's not about that. It's time to set the record straight, and make sure an insultingly misogynistic and degrading atrocity like this is avoided in the future.
Damaging videogames... hyperbole much? :thinking:
This is the game in question (probably triggered by the racy Boxart revealed for the Euro version... NSFW)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on January 21, 2014, 05:39:06 am
Quote
if you believe this sort of thing is wrong and you think women should be treated equally to men - congratulations, you're a feminist, welcome to the club!
i hope he gets run over by a drunk driver
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Wolf on January 21, 2014, 05:51:47 am
i'd feel more offended on how they expect me to pay for such a terrible game just because it has bouncing boob action [avatar]http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb404/Bastard-Wolf/avatars/neptuneBIG_zps50b5cebb.png[/avatar] wasn't neptunia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jtIGNSvmCM) also attacked by feminists? dunno which is worst (as a game or whatever. but at least neptune was cute as fuck NEPU NEPU~!)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on January 21, 2014, 10:21:03 pm
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPYd1vnvCXI[/youtube] i'd feel more offended on how they expect me to pay for such a terrible game just because it has bouncing boob action
wasn't neptunia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jtIGNSvmCM) also attacked by feminists? dunno which is worst (as a game or whatever. but at least neptune was cute as fuck NEPU NEPU~!)
The game series is has a surprisingly serious storyline under all that fanservice, so yeah it's more of a grab than just being all it is.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on January 21, 2014, 10:58:38 pm
I am surprised they don' complain about all those sports games that feature predominantly male characters rosters; you know while they are complainign about games that are obviously not aimed at them.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: TempesT on January 21, 2014, 11:11:43 pm
Sports games rosters are based off of real people and teams, are you actually surprised that they aren't complaining about that? That's a pretty bad comparison.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on January 21, 2014, 11:13:44 pm
considering that they have pushed for the gender of game characters to be changed, yeah.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lith on January 21, 2014, 11:17:50 pm
Well what Tempest said is right, they don't really have the option to do that with sports games as they're forced to be accurate to the real teams, it would just seem really pointless to complain about sports games as they can't really go beyond what they're basing the game on.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on January 21, 2014, 11:54:16 pm
Ive seen people argue that homosexuals are sexist because they remove women from relationships completely and thus are the biggest example of misoginy.
When it comes to first worlders trying to latch onto causes they dont understand or are affected by, you cant really expect smart people to be present.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on January 21, 2014, 11:58:57 pm
senran kagura is a game for people who love boobs, it just happens to be that only females have boobs; if the game was about asses it would have men too, if it was about nudity it would have males too, like akiba strip does.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Cazaki on January 22, 2014, 01:07:17 am
I am surprised they don' complain about all those sports games that feature predominantly male characters rosters; you know while they are complainign about games that are obviously not aimed at them.
lol.
smdh
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on January 22, 2014, 05:46:27 am
Ive seen people argue that homosexuals are sexist because they remove women from relationships completely and thus are the biggest example of misoginy.
When it comes to first worlders trying to latch onto causes they dont understand or are affected by, you cant really expect smart people to be present.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: TempesT on January 22, 2014, 06:25:54 am
You looked at that image and said "yeah this is what I wanna post, this will be good" that's the real mindfuck here.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on January 22, 2014, 07:07:01 am
visit 2dchew deviantart.com for all your posting needs
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on January 22, 2014, 07:19:45 am
I really only skimmed through this and read comments until now. :P
Quote
But do try to talk to other gamers you know about it. If this game can provide one good, it can force a conversation that has quietly been going on within gaming circles for a while to the fore, and ensure that it's addressed once and for all. Gaming still has a reputation for being just for hormonal sweaty teenage boys in their bedrooms, and as the vast majority of people reading this will know it's not about that. It's time to set the record straight, and make sure an insultingly misogynistic and degrading atrocity like this is avoided in the future.
Wow... that sure convinced me. Clearly everyone's idea of "fun" should be exactly like this guy. Come on everyone; join him in the fight to save the standards and the reputation of videogames. :sugoi:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on January 23, 2014, 07:55:43 am
Sports games rosters are based off of real people and teams, are you actually surprised that they aren't complaining about that? That's a pretty bad comparison.
well, there are female leagues for most if not every sport so they can still complain that why isn't anyone releasing a... let's say female soccer game based of the female soccer league. so no, it's not a bad comparison
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on January 23, 2014, 06:21:54 pm
Sports games rosters are based off of real people and teams, are you actually surprised that they aren't complaining about that? That's a pretty bad comparison.
well, there are female leagues for most if not every sport so they can still complain that why isn't anyone releasing a... let's say female soccer game based of the female soccer league. so no, it's not a bad comparison
oh yeah? Well most plumbers are men too, checkmate atheists.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on January 23, 2014, 07:33:32 pm
You don't have terribly good linguistic skills then.
It's not really a matter of linguistics failure, it's that it's such sheer stupidity that finding the words to describe how I felt was impossible due to how stupid it was.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on January 23, 2014, 11:43:27 pm
how about "golly gee wilickers thats really stupid" instead of posting that trainwreck
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lith on January 23, 2014, 11:45:10 pm
A simple "what" could have sufficed
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on January 25, 2014, 08:36:34 pm
In an infinite universe, possibly some women somewhere have spoken like these characters do, but it just comes across as what a misogynistic male writer believes (or wants to believe) women sound like. Like in his head, he's all "The one with the tiny breasts obviously has a ragey complex about her inadequacies because huge breasts are objectively better, even when your entire existence revolves around combat and costumes which sorely lack good support and strong battle bras, and also they have arguments about what the differences in cup sizes mean about their personalities--" *YAWN*
I find this entertaining (and in every anime that fails to be unique)... I guess I'm misogynistic. :(
12. Video games, the world’s most pathetic “hobby”
I quit this forum... goodbye everyone.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: The Answer on January 25, 2014, 09:30:08 pm
That website has a whole article about why short haired women aren't sexy. What plebs.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Long John Killer on January 25, 2014, 09:30:50 pm
That link just tried to force me to like a page about why women really want rape and then brought up a pop-up that contains real police records and warns me they can use my personal data if I continue.
Rajaa, why are you trying to get me arrested?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on January 25, 2014, 09:41:33 pm
If you read that site, you'll get laid and you'll take the red pill and wake up to reality. The transition from beta to alpha is long and arduous, but I have faith that all of you will someday mountain bike and become real men who dominate women.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on January 25, 2014, 11:12:20 pm
but alpha women are so hot
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lith on January 25, 2014, 11:13:58 pm
Was this posted? I'm above the reading the thread rule. =p
Yes, that was posted a while ago.
But it is always nice to have these video links refreshed once in a while just in case people did not catch the memo the first time around.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: JDM on February 05, 2014, 03:03:19 am
So, this was posted today.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: MDI on February 05, 2014, 03:20:34 am
Pretty funny video, but right off the bat I was assuming that it was going to be a sort of somewhat serious response to her videos basically doing what she does but with male stereotypes. Oh well, still entertaining.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Caddie on February 05, 2014, 03:27:03 am
I got a wicked bonah watchin that video. Guys need to make more videos about hot broads in old video games.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rote Zaungast on February 05, 2014, 05:40:47 am
lol boo goddamn
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on February 05, 2014, 06:46:26 am
why does this thread exist
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Caddie on February 05, 2014, 09:35:18 am
Judging by the 28 full pages of posts I'm guessing this thread exists because people want to talk about it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on February 12, 2014, 10:04:03 pm
In other news that will crush your soul.
The Game Developer Choice Awards honor Anita Sarkessian....Video Game Ambassador...
Guys need to make more videos about hot broads in old video games.
Yes, although I wonder if this fetish actually existed. (http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/porn.png) :P
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jango Hakamichi on February 13, 2014, 03:35:38 am
I was about to say that she was an ambASSador because she's kinda hot but I stopped myself short of saying I would bang her because I'm quite sure her vagina is an interconnected series of sawblades and rubbing alcohol vats.
Also lol video game awards meaning anything.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on February 13, 2014, 01:37:35 pm
On the other hand, her having the award means that knowledge of her fraudulent activities would spread.
If they do not know who she is before, they do now. And it does not take too much to look up a video on Youtube and see her disgraceful actions in full.
But I rather wish that people would stop rewarding her for ripping off people...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on February 17, 2014, 07:07:44 pm
Deep Down will not have female characters and someone's upset at the idea. (http://www.vg247.com/2014/02/17/deep-down-the-rabbit-hole-of-ingrained-games-industry-sexism/)
The journalist said:
Why on earth would a game creator deliberately omit the entire female gender from its game? Because of the plot, apparently.
Don’t let this answer satisfy you. Capcom wrote the plot. There’s no reason why it had to write a plot that excluded female characters. There’s no reason why its story about virtual reality time travelling explorers couldn’t include women. Future humans exploring the past encased in avatars that wield magic through dungeons filled with monsters and drawing power from emotions? Perfectly acceptable! That one of these future humans might want to do so while in the shape of a woman, a type of human that makes up close to one half of the entire species? Preposterous! (see related entry on men using swords the length of their own bodies for hours on end while some jockstrap argues that women fighting “isn’t realistic”.)
The actual reason why Capcom has apparently chosen not to include women in Deep Down is that it can’t be bothered. It doesn’t want to spend the money to do so. It can’t see the point.
Capcom strikes again.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Darkflare on February 17, 2014, 08:41:25 pm
So what's in the plot preventing the existence of boobs and vaginas?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on February 18, 2014, 01:58:55 am
So what's in the plot preventing the existence of boobs and vaginas?
I wonder that myself... Some games atleast have an excuse, but Deep Down doesn't really have much of an excuse, especially when you consider MH and DD has both genders...seems off.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on February 19, 2014, 07:26:58 pm
On the opposite end of ONM, someone is saying that games like Senran Kagura is good for the gaming industry. (http://www.ricedigital.co.uk/senran-kagura-good-games-industry-buy/)
Quote
In singling out this kind of entertainment as being ‘bad’, of focusing purely on the representation of breast size, whether a female character is portrayed as being too attractive, too sexy – aren’t we making a sweeping generalisation that women are suggestible, weak-minded and insecure?
Is it just me, or is that… really fucking patronising?
The irony is that this is the very stance so many male games journalists adopt in the damning of games like Senran Kagura – and at once strike a blow against the very people they’re attempting to ‘protect’. There aren’t any women in my social circle who need a games journalist to fight their corner for them – they’re perfectly capable of doing so themselves.
---
Regardless of your tastes, regardless of whether or not it’s top of your list for games to pre-order – it is absolutely essential for games like this to exist in order to enrich the industry that we love.
Yes, the indie scene is rampant with diversity – but the same is still not true of the main console and handheld releases.
If I woke tomorrow morning to find an industry that had homogenised – that was too frightened to release titles that they thought might offend certain people, or were worried about implementing a gameplay mechanic that might prove too divisive, or decided to tackle a theme that was deemed to risque, then I’d be mortified.
That’s not what I want from games. That’s not what I want from life. And to encourage people to be complicit in this ugly process? That is the most damaging thing of all.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Nomechy on February 19, 2014, 07:35:51 pm
Not a good thing to post, since it's likely that there are people who agree with that here.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on February 19, 2014, 07:39:51 pm
Idk, it was interesting to hear the other end of the extreme.
But yeah, probably wasn't necessary.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Umezono on February 19, 2014, 07:42:03 pm
by that same logic it wouldnt be okay for people to post the feminist viewpoints
both sides are dumb. wish a proper balance could be achieved
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: LurkerSupreme on February 19, 2014, 08:16:11 pm
Deep Down not having female pc's was just a misunderstanding. (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-02-19-capcom-addresses-concern-over-lack-of-female-characters-in-deep-down)
Quote
UPDATE: Capcom has issued Eurogamer the following statement from Deep Down producer Kazunori Sugiura:
“My name is Sugiura and I'm a producer at Capcom Japan. I was informed by a representative of one of our overseas branches that an article containing misleading information regarding deepdown has been recently circulating and drawing some attention. This article makes the claim that the game has 12 playable characters, all of whom are male. As producer in charge of this project, I would like to respond and clarify.
"While the main character of deepdown is indeed male, he is the only playable character in the game. The story focuses on him and a group of allies known as the Ravens.
"Although no announcement has been made regarding an overseas release of deepdown, we are happy that the title is drawing attention in regions other than Japan. We hope to release more information soon.”
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on February 19, 2014, 08:47:13 pm
Deep Down not having female pc's was just a misunderstanding. (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-02-19-capcom-addresses-concern-over-lack-of-female-characters-in-deep-down)
Quote
UPDATE: Capcom has issued Eurogamer the following statement from Deep Down producer Kazunori Sugiura:
“My name is Sugiura and I'm a producer at Capcom Japan. I was informed by a representative of one of our overseas branches that an article containing misleading information regarding deepdown has been recently circulating and drawing some attention. This article makes the claim that the game has 12 playable characters, all of whom are male. As producer in charge of this project, I would like to respond and clarify.
"While the main character of deepdown is indeed male, he is the only playable character in the game. The story focuses on him and a group of allies known as the Ravens.
"Although no announcement has been made regarding an overseas release of deepdown, we are happy that the title is drawing attention in regions other than Japan. We hope to release more information soon.”
O_o Did the writer wrote that wrong? How the hell does that still justify making him the only playable character then? Where is the justification?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Umezono on February 19, 2014, 08:49:28 pm
uh.... by that same logic you can call most games sexist for having only a male playable character. thats overboard. thats just forcing your views onto peoples creative decisions.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on February 19, 2014, 10:25:00 pm
having a single story mod efocus on only one character is nothing new or weird, infamous did that, max payne did that, sonic did that, mario did that until very recently.
A story focused game isnt always interchangeable between sexes.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on February 20, 2014, 01:00:53 am
uh.... by that same logic you can call most games sexist for having only a male playable character. thats overboard. thats just forcing your views onto peoples creative decisions.
having a single story mod efocus on only one character is nothing new or weird, infamous did that, max payne did that, sonic did that, mario did that until very recently.
A story focused game isnt always interchangeable between sexes.
Let me make this more clear: I'm not saying you can't have a single protagonist, especially if it's pivotal to the story. My main point is why is Deep Down have a singular protagonist for a game that seems more along the lines of Dark Souls, that pretty much have interchangeable genders? I was hoping the article actually GAVE a reason and not just pussyfoot, pardon my language.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on February 20, 2014, 01:02:59 am
you don't need to explain yourself when it's someone else's translation error that caused the misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on February 20, 2014, 01:05:55 am
How do we know the game has a setting like that? A setting that makes the protagonist irrelevant?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on February 20, 2014, 01:18:22 am
yeah, worse case scenario they will have to make all the cutscenes and dialogs twice, one for a male character and another time for the female one.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xan on February 20, 2014, 01:20:21 am
Mass Effect did that three times in a row, so it wouldn't be unheard of.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on February 20, 2014, 01:30:22 am
dude, we are talking about capcom, they would lock half the game in the disc to make you pay for it separately and recycle resources for 5-10 years; maybe if it was by the people hwo made the resident evil series.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xan on February 20, 2014, 01:31:20 am
Yeah I know, just saying it's been done so it's possible.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on February 20, 2014, 01:35:42 am
Look, I still havent heard of it being the type of game that Dragon Dogma ,for instance, was.
Dragon dogma made you be able to be either a man or a woman, also by capcom, and the cutscenes and stories adapted.
Now if its a game like Remember Me where you have a plot, a bunch of characters that already know you and a story within the world it doesnt make sense to exchange the main character to be any gender since it messes with the presentation and writer scope of the story.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on February 20, 2014, 05:30:45 am
dude, we are talking about capcom, they would lock half the game in the disc to make you pay for it separately and recycle resources for 5-10 years; maybe if it was by the people hwo made the resident evil series.
*at the same time at Capcom* Mhhh... female character... "DLC".. :devil: :twisted:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on February 20, 2014, 11:07:58 am
How do we know the game has a setting like that? A setting that makes the protagonist irrelevant?
Because atm, nothing about the setting showed there couldn't be a female PC either. I know of singular stories, but you think Capcom would actually divulge the story, characters and settings at this point so we can figure out why.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on February 20, 2014, 04:45:00 pm
yeah, the complaints should wait until after more info is released.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: San2 on March 07, 2014, 01:33:40 pm
I'm glad you decided to let us know in such a tactful and respectful manner.
If many of the american modern day feminists are woman like this permanent angry Chanty Binx or just lying thieves Anita, then why should he be much more respectful that they are`? :devilish:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on March 08, 2014, 12:53:25 pm
I'm glad you decided to let us know in such a tactful and respectful manner.
I agree, Prince, I know modern day feminists are shit, but come on...
Otherwise, I knew she was gonna pluck fanart in that pictures of hers, but this is just par of the course at this point...
I'm wondering how hard she will half-ass the next video... if she ever does it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on March 08, 2014, 12:58:17 pm
I know the emoticon indicates a hint of facetiousness, but to answer the question, it comes across as being just as obnoxious as the extreme feminists.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on June 16, 2014, 09:10:40 pm
It's that time again. It's time for Bea to get unnecessarily angry over a feminist's opinions!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bea on June 16, 2014, 10:22:27 pm
That lass is a man hater, not a feminist. >:(
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: タイタニックリバース on June 16, 2014, 10:31:31 pm
Wait, she's still going? I think we get her somewhat obscure point...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Chimoru on June 16, 2014, 10:42:25 pm
I watched the video. She didn't seem like a man hater to me. I think she actually made a few points and had some interesting ideas. What makes you think she hates men? Did I miss something? What qualities do you think makes for a GOOD feminist?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on June 17, 2014, 05:41:37 am
Not even gonna bother watching that filth, someone better toss out some cliff notes or something, because I'd rather watch people destroy her shit arguments(Someone on GameFaqs stated that she was going on about how there are prostitutes in Sanbox games and you can kill women in them like it's a bad thing?!? Even though that can apply to EVERYONE!?!) then even try and stomach whatever bullshit she spews from her ass anymore...
Getting sick just thinking about her again...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on June 17, 2014, 05:45:17 am
GGRRRRRR HOW DARE A WOMAN CRITICIZE MUH VIDYA GAMES I'M SO MAD
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Chimoru on June 17, 2014, 05:48:35 am
She does, and I was wondering why she was trying to make it sound like that was a woman specific thing, but if you watch the whole thing, she comes back and balances out the thought. I don't think they watched it all, or they missed that. There is definitely a vast difference between how the female and male interactions are handled in the many examples she provided. you don't even need her to show you, just play a game, practically any game. it's so obvious and prominent, saying it doesn't exist is ignorant.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on June 17, 2014, 05:54:08 am
GGRRRRRR HOW DARE A WOMAN CRITICIZE MUH VIDYA GAMES I'M SO MAD
Haha...if she actually made any real points and wasn't mainly playing bitch mode herself with no real answers and even saying questions that make no damn sense. Otherwise, you may have had a point there.
She does, and I was wondering why she was trying to make it sound like that was a woman specific thing, but if you watch the whole thing, she comes back and balances out the thought. I don't think they watched it all, or they missed that. There is definitely a vast difference between how the female and male interactions are handled in the many examples she provided. you don't even need her to show you, just play a game, any game. it's so obvious and prominent, saying it doesn't exist is ignorant.
Considering what others on GF is stating, it's pretty much the same shit as her other videos: Heavily full of bunk and can be easily destroyed in seconds.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on June 17, 2014, 05:56:23 am
Jesus fuck, get your head out of your own ass. You clearly haven't even watched a single video if you declare her arguments easily rebutted and that she's "playing bitch mode".
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on June 17, 2014, 05:58:08 am
i think there are legitimate points about the portrayal of women in videogames and media in general, but anita has become self parody at this point. like when she was complaining during e3 about rainbow six having a female hostage in the gameplay demo, even though that same demo also had people playing as female characters, plus it's very safe to assume the game will also have male hostages
i'm also curious about the following videos The Sexy Villainess - Video #4 Unattractive Equals Evil - Video #9
evil women in videogames can't be attractive or ugly
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Chimoru on June 17, 2014, 05:59:36 am
I suppose next you'll educate black people on racism and gay people on homophobia. You didn't watch it, you have nothing but hearsay, why are you even talking?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on June 17, 2014, 06:06:54 am
i think there are legitimate points about the portrayal of women in videogames and media in general, but anita has become self parody at this point. like when she was complaining during e3 about rainbow six having a female hostage in the gameplay demo, even though that same demo also had people playing as female characters, plus it's very safe to assume the game will also have male hostages
i'm also curious about the following videos The Sexy Villainess - Video #4 Unattractive Equals Evil - Video #9
evil women in videogames can't be attractive or ugly
We'll have to see when Anita posts the Sexy Villainess video on Youtube next year and the Unattractive Equals Evil video in 2042
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: -Red- on June 17, 2014, 06:07:17 am
I can't stand her damn huge earrings and excessive makeup but maybe I'll be able to tolerate those things while watching her last video (I didn't even know she's still making those. So much time to develop so very few videos? Damn).
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on June 17, 2014, 06:07:28 am
I suppose next you'll educate black people on racism and gay people on homophobia. You didn't watch it, you have nothing but hearsay, why are you even talking?
Jesus fuck, get your head out of your own ass. You clearly haven't even watched a single video if you declare her arguments easily rebutted and that she's "playing bitch mode".
Dear fucking god, this shit is gold.
I would have watched this video...if I didn't watch her last 3 and seen how full of shit she is. I mean, did you JUST come to this topic now or did you somehow ignore that I posted here about her last couple of sessions!?
So you go whine and bitch to someone else, because she lost my fucking sympathy and don't you dare act like I'm evil because you guys want to defend womenz.
i think there are legitimate points about the portrayal of women in videogames and media in general, but anita has become self parody at this point. like when she was complaining during e3 about rainbow six having a female hostage in the gameplay demo, even though that same demo also had people playing as female characters, plus it's very safe to assume the game will also have male hostages
i'm also curious about the following videos The Sexy Villainess - Video #4 Unattractive Equals Evil - Video #9
evil women in videogames can't be attractive or ugly
And I'm not saying there isn't(unlike the last 2 bozos, who again, bitch without even knowing about me), but again, why do I need to continue watching her videos when she has bitched about things that barely matter and stated things that easily could be explained or outright ignored?
Complaining about Rainbow Six having female hostages as flags rings hollow when there have been male hostages acting the same way since the beginning of the series? Oh wait, I'm being misogynistic now...
EDIT: Specifically at Chimoru:
That's a stupid ass strawman if I have ever saw one dude. Congratulations on making an ass out of yourself to prove a non-existent point I never made genius.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on June 17, 2014, 06:13:22 am
So you go whine and bitch to someone else, because she lost my fucking sympathy
because she made videos criticizing video games
ahahahaha ahahahahahahaha AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA fuck
So you continue being a sad ass White Knight even though I gave you reasons for why I'm not even gonna bother watching her videos...and you pick on a statement you can take out of context?
Goodbye whatever shred of cred you ever had.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on June 17, 2014, 06:23:03 am
You're the one making ignorant assumptions based off fucking GAMEFAQs posts and saying shit like "playing bitch mode"
But please continue making yourself look like an asshole like you usually do whenever you post. It's actually really amusing witnessing your utter ignorance and backwards thinking.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Chimoru on June 17, 2014, 06:29:32 am
We should probably try to steer away from Anita right now. It seems whenever she is brought up in conversations, the focus become less on Feminism in video games, and more of how people feel about her. I don't always agree with her, and I agree with people who have a problem with her pointing out non-sexualized violence towards women when it is also there in equal opportunity for men. However, I DO agree that depending on the game, the violence becomes sexualized and that disgusts me. MOST games sexualize women. I'm going to stop talking about Anita here. She is not the "be all end all" authority when it comes to video games.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on June 17, 2014, 06:33:35 am
You're the one making ignorant assumptions based off fucking GAMEFAQs posts and saying shit like "playing bitch mode"
Yeah, you are really coming off like you know what you are talking about... "I need to watch the video to see that she is just doing the same shit as before"
So keep at it, you are really teaching me a lesson...in being a complete jackass. Titlin pretty much made my reason and my point, so if you want to continue on acting like a fool, go on ahead.
Quote
But please continue making yourself look like an asshole like you usually do whenever you post.
1. Pot calling kettle black
2. Yep, use the outbursts that I had about 3-4 times(latest was because someone else like yourself was acting like an asshole) to justify yourself. Doesn't make you look like a jackass at all.
Quote
It's actually really amusing witnessing your utter ignorance and backwards thinking.
You honestly believe I'm being sexist? Because I rather not watch the video of a woman I have officially given no fucks to? Even after I just told you the stupidity I stated?
*Sigh* It's so funny sometimes just hearing people talk.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Chimoru on June 17, 2014, 06:34:10 am
I wanna ask my question again.
What do people consider a "good" feminist to be?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xan on June 17, 2014, 06:36:43 am
It's really nothing spectacular. Do you want equal rights for both genders? Bam. You're a feminist.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Chimoru on June 17, 2014, 06:37:56 am
I want equal rights AND equal representation.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: The Fisher King on June 17, 2014, 06:41:34 am
Then you´re a good feminist, thank you. And better than half of the tumblr userbase. The second part is unnecessary but sadly it is true regarding the subject.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on June 17, 2014, 06:42:15 am
"I need to watch the video to see that she is just doing the same shit as before"
If you want to even make an informed opinion you actually have to make the effort in actually watching what you're criticizing. Your generalizations are like if I put you on ignore and each time you posted I went "oh man xhominid's posted again, i bet he's talking about jerking off to anime girls and playing cuntface mode again, might as well not read his posts"
then again all of your posts have been a lazy "no u" each time so i don't know why i even bother reading them
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Chimoru on June 17, 2014, 06:43:58 am
No, I think it IS necessary. I think representation is important. Not just for women, everyone. Whether you are White, Black, Asian, Latino. Gay, Straight, Transgender. Everyone. I could go on forever.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: The Fisher King on June 17, 2014, 06:47:00 am
I feel many of this pseudo-feminists don´t want to share the spotlight and want everything from them, only their ideas count. If we can truly achieve equality the world could be a better place but that´s asking for too much.
I sincerely don´t care enough about it but it gets annoying.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on June 17, 2014, 06:49:56 am
representation is good but i am absolutely against the idea that it should be forced
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Chimoru on June 17, 2014, 06:52:13 am
I dunno. I don't feel like you should chase what's right just because it's obtainable. I think you should chase it simply because it's the right thing to do, obtainable or not. Giving up on the dream would make me feel like a shitty person. Like I climbed up a ladder and pulled it up behind me.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on June 17, 2014, 06:56:34 am
Someone who actually does their information, knows that not everything will be absolutely equal but makes certain no one gets screwed over in the process.
Not really all that hard since most people are "feminists" in the simple base of logic feminist once stood for.
"I need to watch the video to see that she is just doing the same shit as before"
If you want to even make an informed opinion you actually have to make the effort in actually watching what you're criticizing. Your generalizations are like if I put you on ignore and each time you posted I went "oh man xhominid's posted again, i bet he's talking about jerking off to anime girls and playing cuntface mode again, might as well not read his posts"
then again all of your posts have been a lazy "no u" each time so i don't know why i even bother reading them
My posts have been "No You" and "Bitch Mode" when you have done the exact same shit ever since I posted here today? I made my post because it was dead obvious to people who have been through this topic how I feel about Anita and her bullshit and yes, that means I have watched her videos, looked at her tweets and other shit. I'm so fucking sorry I have to watch ANOTHER video to know she's full of shit and will follow the same problems every other critic of her's has stated since the fucking start.
And your analogy sucks because I didn't have an outburst or bitch fit in every post I made here otherwise S.D. would be pretty much known as the guy with the short fuse and Titlin to be a dick of all dicks, but they aren't. A few bad moments don't make someone into an ass, getting $160K dollars, barely doing anything with the money to actually help your research, do faulty research anyone who has ever played the games she critiqued can instantly destroy, taking scenes out of context, RIPPING VIDEOS FROM PEOPLE WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT, making bait posts on Twitter and literally having no real solutions to any problems is why she's on my shit list.
There, you gonna whine and bitch some more about how I didn't watch her vid to know she pulled off another mis-informed stinker that makes actual problems harder to see and ignored or are you gonna bitch at me for continuing to not watch the video as you so eloquently stated I've been doing on repeat?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: The Fisher King on June 17, 2014, 06:58:41 am
representation... this term has been twisted so many times I´m not even sure what it should mean anymore. Anyways, representation is a choice and it should always be a choice. Not just because "is the right thing to do" everyone should try to achieve it. Is not that simple.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on June 17, 2014, 06:59:44 am
A few bad moments don't make someone into an ass, getting $160K dollars, barely doing anything with the money to actually help your research, do faulty research anyone who has ever played the games she critiqued can instantly destroy, taking scenes out of context, RIPPING VIDEOS FROM PEOPLE WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT, making bait posts on Twitter and literally having no real solutions to any problems is why she's on my shit list.
fuckin hell
you don't even think for a moment or even do your homework do you
but please continue using 4chan as your resource for all information regarding anita
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on June 17, 2014, 07:03:59 am
representation... this term has been twisted so many times I´m not even sure what it should mean anymore. Anyways, representation is a choice and it should always be a choice. Not just because "is the right thing to do" everyone should try to achieve it. Is not that simple.
This, nothing else to really say but this and Titlin's post.
Forcing representation is just as damaging as not including it to begin with. Let people actually create what they want, just like movies, it'll come in time.
A few bad moments don't make someone into an ass, getting $160K dollars, barely doing anything with the money to actually help your research, do faulty research anyone who has ever played the games she critiqued can instantly destroy, taking scenes out of context, RIPPING VIDEOS FROM PEOPLE WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT, making bait posts on Twitter and literally having no real solutions to any problems is why she's on my shit list.
fuckin hell
you don't even think for a moment or even do your homework do you
but please continue using 4chan as your resource for all information regarding anita
And you keep saying that I'm being the jackass...you don't say anything to really defeat my point, but keep taking sentences out of context and bitch at them and me for being ignorant and wrong. White Knight at it's finest.
By the by, Anita rattled 4Chan by spamming her Youtube link on their site, which caused this whole thing which was confirmed by plenty of people so...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on June 17, 2014, 07:21:52 am
You keep calling me a white knight, even though I have never stated that I agree with her views. You're using as a crutch because you're an ignorant asshole who gets mad about someone expressing their opinion about the negative stereotyped female characters that appear in video games. You simply dismiss it and state that her points are shallow when all are opinionated and not fact, while not providing any actually rebuttal of any substance. You judge a person based on the fact that other people with their own free will donated money to a project that they felt like supporting, as if Anita extorted the money using ill means. You are certain about how exactly Anita is spending the money she gained through her crowdfunding project when there is no possible way for you or anyone who isn't Anita or those involved with the production of the project to know that. You state that Anita has offered no solutions to the problems that she poses when she clearly has in her videos like her part 3 of damsels in distress where she provides a simple example of a concept that subverts the standards set by the trope. You claim that Anita is stealing videos from Let's Players when the whole concept of Let's Plays are a huge legal grey area where Let's Player are profiting on the content of another entity.
Oh wait, I'm sorry I'm just a white knight that's defending Anita because she got a pair of tits. You're right. It's not that I disagree with a majority of what Anita argues. It's not that I respect Anita's right to voice her opinion and in fact encourage it. It's not that I'm utterly shocked that you are so crass and ignorant. No, it's because I want to fuck Anita. Yup.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on June 17, 2014, 07:46:06 am
Quote
You claim that Anita is stealing videos from Let's Players when the whole concept of Let's Plays are a huge legal grey area where Let's Player are profiting on the content of another entity.
that doesn't make what she did any less shitty, though??
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on June 17, 2014, 07:57:32 am
You keep calling me a white knight, even though I have never stated that I agree with her views. You're using as a crutch because you're an ignorant asshole who gets mad about someone expressing their opinion about the negative stereotyped female characters that appear in video games. You simply dismiss it and state that her points are shallow when all are opinionated and not fact, while not providing any actually rebuttal of any substance.
Yes, because apparently, I stated nothing of the many reasons why Anita is so hated and laid them to bear in my last couple of posts, so it must be a crutch because I continue to call you out for the White Knight you are and you continue to ignore everything I stated only to focus on how butthurt you yourself is.
I keep explaining over and over about my(and others) reasons and yet, you keep single me out and call me out on ignorance you yourself don't even bother to do any real info on to figure out the reasons yourself. Yeah, I'm still the asshole somehow, nice touch.
Quote
You judge a person based on the fact that other people with their own free will donated money to a project that they felt like supporting, as if Anita extorted the money using ill means.
She technically did considering that she finally continued her series...since October/November of last year...when she started this project in 2012...and promised it would have been completed in full at 2013...
Quote
You are certain about how exactly Anita is spending the money she gained through her crowdfunding project when there is no possible way for you or anyone who isn't Anita or those involved with the production of the project to know that.
You are seriously saying that all of that costed $160K dollars!?! Are you fucking serious? Flash barely costs a damn dime, lifting videos from other people barely costs a dime, buying a stack of games and systems while barely scratch 10K in the long run, so please again, tell me where all that money really go? Because I remember when she got the money, she actually QUIT her job and even stated that, so I guess it's living expenses now?
Quote
You state that Anita has offered no solutions to the problems that she poses when she clearly has in her videos like her part 3 of damsels in distress where she provides a simple example of a concept that subverts the standards set by the trope.
1. Half ass solution does not = a solution.
2. The solution itself honestly makes no sense considering there ARE Damsels who do more than just sit in a corner after being captured, but she bitches at that too because apparently, they can't defeat the obvious God/Super powerful Sorcerer/Badass Evil Knight/Whatever herself, thus making the entire adventure null.
3. That's not even a good solution to begin with considering she honestly believes people equate rescuing people as prizes.
Quote
You claim that Anita is stealing videos from Let's Players when the whole concept of Let's Plays are a huge legal grey area where Let's Player are profiting on the content of another entity.
Don't change the damn subject when she is being PAID FOR THIS! She should have been playing these games so she can make her own damn judgment calls, not watch things out of context and then whine about how "this" is wrong when anyone with a brain would say otherwise. So you virtually admit that it's okay that a Scientist can just rip off other Scientists because their hypothesis isn't exactly concrete thus is fair game right? Because I can tell you some people have issues with Benjamin Franklin being credited for things Nikola Tesla made.
Quote
Oh wait, I'm sorry I'm just a white knight that's defending Anita because she got a pair of tits. You're right. It's not that I disagree with a majority of what Anita argues. It's not that I respect Anita's right to voice her opinion and in fact encourage it. It's not that I'm utterly shocked that you are so crass and ignorant. No, it's because I want to fuck Anita. Yup.
Funny how I said none of that and you came to that conclusion of White Knight yourself. I was mainly saying it as someone who just acts like a blatant sheep. And considering your actions, you really ARE a blatant sheep being led by a moronic Shepard. I feel so bad for you.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Killer Kong on June 17, 2014, 08:27:23 am
"Blatant Sheep?" I'd like to think you didn't even read anything he said. That's all I'm pulling from it. I think you're just that kinda guy, s'pose.
For the record I dislike the direction Anita's videos go as well but I tend to be respectful in my assertions.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on June 17, 2014, 08:40:44 am
"Blatant Sheep?" I'd like to think you didn't even read anything he said. That's all I'm pulling from it. I think you're just that kinda guy, s'pose.
For the record I dislike the direction Anita's videos go as well but I tend to be respectful in my assertions.
Meh. I don't believe I'm 100% right, but I don't really care considering that he's whining about the fact that I'm not even gonna bother giving her a chance after the numerous amount of bullshit I went through already.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Killer Kong on June 17, 2014, 09:13:10 am
He's telling you to stop acting so angry, and up in arms about it. I don't see anywhere where he even says he agrees with her base ideas at all lol.
Going to be frank, the basic message is don't get too mad online, really.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on June 17, 2014, 09:33:11 am
He's telling you to stop acting so angry, and up in arms about it. I don't see anywhere where he even says he agrees with her base ideas at all lol.
Going to be frank, the basic message is don't get too mad online, really.
Didn't seem like that since he was more angry than I was this whole time. I rightfully stated how I won't give her the type of day anymore and even seeing her videos and opinions make me sick. Other than that and telling me I have to watch her stuff before I vomit up the typical, I was done with my rage the time I posted here.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Shwa on June 17, 2014, 09:47:16 am
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on June 17, 2014, 11:37:01 am
While her basic message of "isnt this doing more harm than good" about the depiction of sex workers as mini games or bonuses is something i agree with. ( sleeping dogs had me stop and use them just to get the powerup , but it had me doing the same whenever i encoutered shrines or whatever). Her depiction and narrative is ridiculous. She keeps showing off sexy females being beaten, killed and their bodies thrown about in a vaccum where she doesnt identify anything about the games.
Hitman, sleeping dogs, fallout, gta all allow you to perform the same acts of violence towards women and men, and she tries to position it in a way that makes it seem as if you are being rewarded specifically for beating up those women , as if thats the feature.
her pov is built in such a way as to impress and shock casuals. That animation of sleeping dogs with him bashing the girl head into the car would have thhinking the whole game was about beating up women. Instead of, you know, it being part of his attack set of animations.
In the end she claims that representing gay men as prostitutes and violence towards men isnt important considering they are powerful figures, which means she expected women to be impervious to anything in her murder simulators.
I can understand thinking those games are too violent. I cant understand trying to create a narrative that would only be satisfied when women were completely absent from those things.
I also dont think there is anything wrong with crime games and stuff like the godfather having hookers and the like, those things happen in crime settings and narratives.
Ofcourse then her end speech is about how "toasters make toast even if you dont use it to make toast" and how violent games towards women are being sexist even if you dont use them for their "intended" purpose of being sexist and she goes further to claim that violent media creates violent people, which is a view I can only disagree with.
Hence what I said before about not getting mad and saying completely silly things.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bea on June 17, 2014, 02:23:51 pm
I haven't watched this last one yet. I shall do that tonight, when I will have at least three beers with me to wash my anger down. This lass ain't a feminist. She is a man hater. In all her arguments, she diminishes when men are put on the same tropes that women are put, because men have "privilege". She ain't striving for equality. She aims for a society where women are untouchable. Can do no evil, can't be harmed, can't be proved wrong.
Sorry, but that ain't feminism for me. Feminism for me means if I punch a man, that man has all the right to punch me back because we are equals.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on June 17, 2014, 02:26:56 pm
So the goal of feminists is to make people feel bitter, angry, and miserable because they are mis/under-represented in video games. It clearly works, as evidenced by everything that happened while I was at my shitty night job.
From what I see, females are represented about as well as they can be in a male-dominated medium. I could be wrong, but don't see why "severe improvement" is needed (it makes it sound like every female is some frail ass damsel or wanking material with little substance).
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on June 17, 2014, 06:12:28 pm
Feminism strives for equality and non stereotypization. Its a legitimate endeavour, there are far too many issues with society that need a shift in the cultural acceptance of abuse and exploration of women , specially in 2nd world countries but not limited to them. Women are not second class citizen.
Whatever she is doing is .. 2nd wave? 3rd wave? Im not even sure. But its weird. Most philosophical movements do not demand themselves to be presented as untouchable. The presentation of a positive equality movement cant stand side by side with the ideology that bad things happening to those they consider to have more priviledges is "okay" because there are others with less priviledges to begin with.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on June 17, 2014, 06:15:50 pm
Feminism strives for equality and non stereotypization. Its a legitimate endeavour, there are far too many issues with society that need a shift in the cultural acceptance of abuse and exploration of women , specially in 2nd world countries but not limited to them. Women are not second class citizen.
Makes sense.
I guess it just seems that the topic can be overbearing when clear progress has been made in about the past 30 years or so. Idk, the movement appears that it can only go so far being that hardcore gaming is a market that will likely always be driven by men, but I guess it doesn't hurt to try
I do think Japanese gaming has it worse considering how culturally the gender bias is still quite favored towards males. Not helped that females are culturally expected to not be aggressive towards practically anything, although it seems to have gotten better over the years.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Killer Kong on June 17, 2014, 11:04:07 pm
Which I wasn't anymore since that first post, sheesh, you and Shwa seriously need to learn to read better.
Perhaps we're talking about the first post in question being an example of pretty poor behavior?
You know what, I'm out. Peace dude you have your fun.
Jesus dude, I know you was talking about that first post already, I acknowledged it. So let's finally move on already.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on July 05, 2014, 02:59:25 am
Response video that's gotten well, quite the response:
Thunderf00t said:
The basic word game feminist play to tell you everything is sexist, is they say everything is objects or subjects. They then ignore, that by this method, you can class everyone in society as objects, and just claim that they have shown that women are objects.
They then proceed to claim that women are treated like objects (something which is obviously not true) and is therefore sexist.
This is particularly evident in Anita Sarkeesians new video where she actually thinks that if you classify someone as an object, then its permissible for you to physically attack them.
WHAT PLANET ARE THESE MUNCHKINS ON?
She also seems to have a problem with sexy women being used to sell things without realizing that the reason that sexy women are called sexy is primarily because of evolution.
Trying rewire human biology because of your political aspirations is doomed to end in failure. Just look how well 'abstinence only' worked!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on July 05, 2014, 03:12:00 am
"ANITA SARKEESIAN DESTROYED!!!!!!" good video title
this guy has good points but presents them in a really really shitty way
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on July 05, 2014, 03:34:19 am
"ANITA SARKEESIAN DESTROYED!!!!!!" good video title
this guy has good points but presents them in a really really shitty way
I have to agree with that. I always hated how they played the object game considering on how the definition works, everything can be made an object.
I have watched Thunderfoot's videos in the past and he is pretty damn harsh, but I believe that's mainly because he tackles Feminism in the same way you look at that game series that you despise and just want to go away. So he could be nicer, but I believe he just chooses not to.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on July 05, 2014, 06:37:54 am
I didn't even know what this was trying to say at first.
He's missing the main point. None of this little tyraid get into how it relates to video game design, characterization, and the scripts that go with them; just how feminists try to "twist arguments" (not that they don't). And everyone knows why sexy and/or powerful people are used in media (hint: it's not because of their personality).
Oh and what a balanced and objective title, clearly a well thought out counter-argument.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on July 05, 2014, 07:12:51 am
I didn't even know what this was trying to say at first.
He's missing the main point. None of this little tyraid get into how it relates to video game design, characterization, and the scripts that go with them; just how feminists try to "twist arguments" (not that they don't). And everyone knows why sexy and/or powerful people are used in media (hint: it's not because of their personality).
Oh and what a balanced and objective title, clearly a well thought out counter-argument.
Still better than whatever Anita tosses out.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: megaman_zer0 on July 05, 2014, 07:05:37 pm
I didn't even know what this was trying to say at first.
He's missing the main point. None of this little tyraid get into how it relates to video game design, characterization, and the scripts that go with them; just how feminists try to "twist arguments" (not that they don't). And everyone knows why sexy and/or powerful people are used in media (hint: it's not because of their personality).
Oh and what a balanced and objective title, clearly a well thought out counter-argument.
Balanced and objective? I'm sorry to say that no such thing exsists everyone looks at issues through the lens of their experiences.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on July 05, 2014, 07:56:19 pm
"ANITA SARKEESIAN DESTROYED!!!!!!" good video title
this guy has good points but presents them in a really really shitty way
he could have come across better in half the time by removing all the sniveling and laughter and by not spending a bunch of time repeating about the 30k
most of the people supporting her are ignorant about the games she is misrepresenting, a presentation towards those people would damage her more than trying to attack her.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on July 05, 2014, 08:06:41 pm
Balanced and objective? I'm sorry to say that no such thing exsists everyone looks at issues through the lens of their experiences.
That's not quite what I was trying to say, yeah his views are based on his experiences.
Thunderf00t's response to Anita's video: A title that presents the point in a fair and thought-provoking manner (even if it does looks boring). More likely to ignite curiosity on a wider spectrum.
(Anita Sarkeesian DESTROYED!): Kinda looks like a shitty fantard response. Also gives away the mystery of what the content in the video is about.
When making a response video to a serious matter that will garner a lot of views, hard to take a title that basically says "LOLOLOLOLOL I PWNED YOU!" seriously. And as expected (thanks to the video title) the way he presented his thoughts was crap. It's not that his points suck and have no merit, but the way he projects them comes across as someone who's trying to win a pissing contest, and nobody wins those. If the goal was to be some kind of parody or a form of comedic entertainment then it would work, but that's clearly not the case.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on July 05, 2014, 08:42:46 pm
the way he repeatedly brings up how much each video supposedly cost is obnoxious, he also gets money from each video (granted it's way less) (http://www.patreon.com/thunderf00t) so he's not that much better as far as i'm concerned. i think his main problem is that he's appealing to the crowd that already thinks anita sarkeesian is full of shit. the way he presents his viewpoints isn't going to "turn" anyone, it's mostly reaffirming to those that already have a negative view about her
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on July 05, 2014, 09:16:41 pm
proper inconsistencies can be brought up about what she did, his segment on hitman was decent at that, if he had just repeated that for each of the games he could have shown her critique to be exagerated for the notion of hypersexualizing the violence.
In fallout, one of the games criticized one of the questlines possible is to save a prostitute out of forced prostitution and have her commit into a happy life with her boyfriend. Instead you are supposed to be shocked that there are female prositutes in the game ? Also , the male prostitutes arent a problem according to her, its so specific that she needs to make that distinction.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on July 05, 2014, 11:05:26 pm
I love watching Thunderfoot's Anita Sarkeesian bash videos because I agree with him and it's funny how he points out how stupid she is.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on July 06, 2014, 08:57:02 am
the way he repeatedly brings up how much each video supposedly cost is obnoxious, he also gets money from each video (granted it's way less) (http://www.patreon.com/thunderf00t) so he's not that much better as far as i'm concerned. i think his main problem is that he's appealing to the crowd that already thinks anita sarkeesian is full of shit. the way he presents his viewpoints isn't going to "turn" anyone, it's mostly reaffirming to those that already have a negative view about her
But there's plenty of videos that does that job anyway, not every video is gonna show how corrupt she is because certain videos already are made BELIEVING those who watch her is on the fence or already don't like her.
It's more making sure that it's there.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on July 12, 2014, 10:55:09 am
Thunderfoot made a new video, it has some interesting points again.^^
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on August 27, 2014, 04:48:53 am
Tim Schafer's getting death threats and boycotted? It must be that special time! More Tropes vs Women in Vidya Games!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Gritsmaster on August 27, 2014, 06:16:06 am
You know what, for the longest time I avoided her videos because I typically try to abstain from things I know will infuriate me, simply writing it off as insane tumblr feminist ramblings. I must say, though, that this is refreshing.
I adamantly disagreed with a number of smaller points in the video, but her overall point was agreeable and enlightening. She was not demonizing towards video games nor did she create a wicked men-hating atmosphere. She argued a fairly reasonable point with substantial proof (some more substantial than others), and suggested a progressive solution with a counterexample.
It's a breath of fresh air to see true, progressive, MATURE feminism in an age where baselessly calling every man a pig has become the cool thing to do. It seems sad, then, how us guys playing video games display the larger majority by sending death threats and hatemail to someone who can produce this quality of research and opinion without being overly argumentative or ridiculous.
And this is from someone who disagreed with a lot of the video. Fuck the internet.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on August 27, 2014, 06:30:39 am
Her points are petty and feed into a victim complex. She misrepresents aspects of games and has been proven to be a massive hypocrite.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Gritsmaster on August 27, 2014, 06:53:55 am
Perhaps so, but I still appreciate the way she can articulate her point without demonizing gaming culture.
When I watched the video, I said "I disagree" far more than "Oh my my god this stupid bitch". Which is more than I can say for 99% of Tumblr.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on August 29, 2014, 04:10:30 am
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/27/feminist-video-game-critic-forced-to-leave-her-home-after-online-rape-and-death-threats/ (http://i.imgur.com/C5xAiWJ.jpg) oh my fucking god i really hope her computer's clock is wrong or her twitter clock is wrong which is why the thing says 12 seconds ago.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on August 29, 2014, 12:53:24 pm
More fabricated evidence? Why am I not surprised, considering her history of dishonesty.
I bet people are no longer taking her seriously, so she decided to make a "threat" against herself and posted it online.
Of course, when people realize that the "threats" are mostly fake, they would just ignore her and criticize her even more.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on August 30, 2014, 04:10:08 am
Just a matter of time until Anita and her Harpy friends will find this and be realy offended by it, they will probably say that is just some kind of "misogyny conspiracy" with the purpose of suppressing woman or something like that, because it is not 100% the way how they see this things....
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on August 30, 2014, 06:36:15 pm
she never addresses legitimate criticism, she only addresses people that call her a cunt
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on August 30, 2014, 09:16:55 pm
she never addresses legitimate criticism, she only addresses people that call her a cunt
Like most people, Anita would never be hated, even if she screws up alot if she bothered to ever make it an actual discussion...except all she does is act like that she's right, and everyone else who disagrees is a misogynist(to the point that it's getting ridiculous on how quickly that word gets used alot as a safety measure).
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on August 30, 2014, 09:23:38 pm
no joke i commented on a friend's facebook post saying anita is awful and some fucking shithead immediately called me a sexist a misogynist and a slew of other social justice warrior terms. it was nauseating for sure
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on August 30, 2014, 09:43:54 pm
I have a friend who occasionally throws a "dude, that's racist" out of nowhere, for absolutely no reason (like "there's a pen mark on my sheet" -> "that's racist") to shut off all discussion. Except he's only trolling.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 30, 2014, 09:53:25 pm
here people just throw the racist term to abny form of discrimination, even sexism; it loled when people started saying that the fact that the army was checking car apper on teh state border was racist again people who travel interstate ( I live in an "urban" area that compromises two states, so sometimes even your water bill might belong to the wrong state)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on August 31, 2014, 02:51:11 am
This is possibly pretty late, but considering that this whole journalistic spite has gone so insane that even the co-founder of the Escapist has to agree with the insanity that's going on is honestly showing how out of control gaming journalists have gotten in these state of affairs...
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Archon: Hello, forum-goers. I'm the co-founder of The Escapist and its publisher/GM since issue 1. You don't hear much from me most days as I've been promoted to manage 12 different sites at Defy; but I still watch and listen and where necessary I act. I just wanted to briefly share three things:
1. We take our journalistic integrity very seriously. Thank you to those who pointed out where we had erred. It is not easy to find the balance in a world where hard news is instantly commodified, and editorialized news dominates traffic via Upworthy and Buzzfeed, Twitter and Facebook. Mr. Tito is working hard to make sure the team as a whole does better in clarifying what is news and what is opinion. You should have seen the effects of this in some of our recent news posts.
2. There have been some Twitter posts by our contributors that have been vitriolic and inflammatory towards large segments of gamers. These appeared in our Escapist Twitter feed, which has up until now included all of our talent. For the record, those posts do not reflect my opinion or The Escapist's opinion. We will be adjusting the standards which Escapist contributors have to follow in order to appear on our Twitter feed. Thank you to those who brought this to my attention.
3. The Escapist was founded on the notion that to be a gamer is to be more than just someone who plays games - it is to be a game enthusiast. Being a game enthusiast is associated with a particular lifestyle and interests, a culture. Every field of leisure has its enthusiast culture, be it foodie culture, cinephile culture, gearhead culture, etc. Since issue 1, The Escapist has been about gamer culture. This is why, as we have grown The Escapist, we have expanded it into other things that are of interest to gamers - sci/tech, comics, tabletop games - rather than into games that are not of interest to them. We will continue to use the word gamer to mean games enthusiast. We do not believe that gamer culture needs to die because non-gamers play games anymore than we believe gearhead culture needs to die because non-gearheads drive cars or foodie culture needs to die because non-foodies eat.
I will be posting a Publisher's Note later that elaborates more later this week. I need to consult with our top editors when they get back from PAX. This post isn't meant to de-rail your thread, simply a clarification of a few points that have been brought to me personally. Carry on.
Not to mention, I heard that gamers are beginning to tell the ADVERTISERS of the gaming websites about these events as well...it's beginning to be something either beautiful...or terrifying.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on August 31, 2014, 03:19:07 am
I was wondering that, since the SJW movement have a negative effect on the gaming industry, how can the whole gamer culture knock a few teeth out of the movement's mouth, figuratively?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 31, 2014, 05:05:39 am
ignoring them, like you are supossed to do with vocal minorities.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on August 31, 2014, 01:47:14 pm
I thought this had some interesting points about nepotism in those things, and how they are all related and seem to push the same narrative when they feel pressured.
this guy been doing these videos on the theme , this is his third, they are all too big and he doesnt know how to effectively narrow down points but he has some interesting bits of info there.
>The End of Gamers - Dan Golding (Tumblr) https://archive.today/L4vJG
>The death of the “gamers” and the women who “killed” them - Casey Johnson, arstechnica (Aug 28, 5:00pm) https://archive.today/i928J
>It's Dangerous to Go Alone: Why Are Gamers So Angry? - Arthur Chu, The Daily Beast (Aug 28) https://archive.today/9NxHy
>Gaming Is Leaving “Gamers” Behind - Joseph Bernstein, Buzzfeed (Aug 28, 8:29 pm) https://archive.today/jVqJ8
>An awful week to care about video games - Chris Plante, Polygon (Aug 28, 1:21pm) https://archive.today/rkvO8
>Sexism, Misogyny, and online attacks: It's a horrible time to consider yourself a gamer - Patrick O'Rourke, Financial Post (Aug 28, 9:33pm) https://archive.today/HkPHc
>Fanboys, white knights, and the hairball of online misogyny - Tauriq Moosa, The Daily Beast (Aug 28) https://archive.today/wptL5
>This guy's embarassing relationship drama is killing the 'gamer' identity - Mike Pearl, Vice (Aug 29) https://archive.today/L4n6p
These people are making feminists look bad by banking on the victimization scheme. Rumour is that following all those "gamers are dead" they will try to push a new gamer term to identify true gamers.
I was wondering that, since the SJW movement have a negative effect on the gaming industry, how can the whole gamer culture knock a few teeth out of the movement's mouth, figuratively?
both of those are shitty attitudes to have. those are persons, not someone you should be "knocking teeth out" and minorities arent supposed to be "ignored". People saying stupid shit, sure, but ignoring someone because they are vocal and a minority is stupid.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: chrono.st on August 31, 2014, 04:56:09 pm
Until those article game out I never knew that the term "gamer" was a reviled term to refer specifically to a subset of white males or trolls.
I thought it was, you know, people who held a vested interest in video/board games (playing, creating, writing, collecting, or any game related hobby).
Spoiler: Me ranting briefly on Ars Technica as a now 'former' regular of the site(click to see content)
Thanks to that repulsive Casey Johnston article at Ars which is so biased, misleading, and poorlynon researched. My days of reading Ars are done which is long over due, they've been pushing click-bait headlines and horrible articles digging on certain peoples personal lives since Ed Snowden's girlfriend got absurdly awhile back. Casey just got called out 2 weeks back for writing click-bait horse shit on a totally different topic as well.
Even Kyle Orland, who is the actual "Game Journalist" (actually just a Blizzard enthusiast blogger), got his panties in a bunch when one of my old favorite game journalists-gone developer, Shawn Ellliott, called out all these assholes at PAX who were saying "gamers" are now at PAX tweeting 'long-live gamers'-esque non-sense:
Shawn Elliott said:
"Yesterday: folks tweeting how gamers are dead. Today: same fucking faces unironically tweeting their every long-live-the-gamer PAX moment."
Kyle thought Shawn was calling him out on this, cracked me up. For the record I normally like Kyle too assuming he isn't nose deep in Blizzard, https://twitter.com/ShawnElliott/status/505569453657300992
My now-former reading of Ars Technica is the only reason why I cared so much about that article. I've been reading their stuff for years while at work and home, and I thought they were improving their standards when Ben Kuchera (a now well known terrible games journalist) was gone, Jacqui Cheng (former writer of non-technical Apple fluff and click-bait) was gone, and John Timmer stopped injecting clearly politically biased comments into his articles comment section (even if he was often spot-on). Apparently now, Casey can't keep her standards high enough to continue writing half-decent, anything research, non-first glance opinion articles over the course of a 1-2 week time frame. And that sucks to me, because I remember liking the stuff she put out over a year ago at least, she actually seemed to do hands-on-research or get at least a general idea of the topic at hand.
The fact that this and 4 other articles with the near identical one-sided message that anyone who identifies as a gamer is essentially a woman-hating asshole or an angsty white male is pretty damning to their initial-defense that the whole controversy around games journalism isn't an important topic, isn't an interesting topic, and only a few vocal internet conspiracy theorists care.
Apparently now an old-wave feminist is now on board against the clear bullshit being spouted by these articles on the on-going Twitter shitstorms these journalists are fueling and will hopefully be held to some accountability for, though I'll admit I had no idea who she was myself until I saw some posts about it in relation to Adam Baldwin: https://twitter.com/CHSommers I'll also admit she is very easy to like as well because she is a feminist who doesn't appear to condemn men on the grounds that they are men which, considering the way game(r)s have been treated the past to weeks, is something I feel I can be easily attuned to at this.
One more re-quote from Shawn Elliott, because I think it is a fantastic view-point of a former journalist who is now a developer in the industry, who has kept a pretty non-sided view on the whole thing, seeing these articles/tweets and then going to PAX to see some familiar faces:
Shawn Elliott said:
"Yesterday: folks tweeting how gamers are dead. Today: same fucking faces unironically tweeting their every long-live-the-gamer PAX moment."
Now I've gotta go take a shit-post in the All That's Left section, since I sound too serious here.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on August 31, 2014, 08:48:22 pm
I just finished the third Quinnspiracy Theory video by InternetAristocrat.
Really good watch. I love to see this entire thing blow up in the "Gaming Journalists'" face.
Not to mention the sudden surge of articles that Iced has posted. Way to act unprofessionally in front of the world! Do these sites have nothing to lose so that they do the equivalent of a career suicide?
Also, here is something interesting that might explain the sudden hostility to gamers from all of these sites:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on August 31, 2014, 08:58:38 pm
I must be missing what advertising has to do with the whole affair and feminism, or what this would even do ?? Are journalism sites just using an excuse to shout at gamers for some reason, because they're the ones who use adblock the most ? And what is that even supposed to do about advertising to shout at them ? I'm also not getting why the guy says at the end to contact advertisers. Tell them what ?
Other than that, that's beside the point but I agree. Many sites keep saying "don't use adblocks" and getting mad at their viewers, not caring for the fact that the viewers block the adds because they don't want to see them in the first place. But that has nothing to do with feminism.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on August 31, 2014, 09:11:38 pm
I must be missing what advertising has to do with the whole affair and feminism, or what this would even do ?? Are journalism sites just using an excuse to shout at gamers for some reason, because they're the ones who use adblock the most ? And what is that even supposed to do about advertising to shout at them ? I'm also not getting why the guy says at the end to contact advertisers. Tell them what ?
Other than that, that's beside the point but I agree. Many sites keep saying "don't use adblocks" and getting mad at their viewers, not caring for the fact that the viewers block the adds because they don't want to see them in the first place. But that has nothing to do with feminism.
They are trying to portray gamers as racist mysoginistic etc and taking to twitter to compare them to isis and claim they should die and other stuff like that. several people started mass emailing the advertisers complaining about that. That reply was in reaction to that, after they started doing that. Escapist already silenced one of their editors. So Pikachu guy has the timeline confused, the advertiser thing come after the articles establishing the narrative.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on August 31, 2014, 09:20:36 pm
I must be missing what advertising has to do with the whole affair and feminism, or what this would even do ?? Are journalism sites just using an excuse to shout at gamers for some reason, because they're the ones who use adblock the most ? And what is that even supposed to do about advertising to shout at them ? I'm also not getting why the guy says at the end to contact advertisers. Tell them what ?
Other than that, that's beside the point but I agree. Many sites keep saying "don't use adblocks" and getting mad at their viewers, not caring for the fact that the viewers block the adds because they don't want to see them in the first place. But that has nothing to do with feminism.
They are trying to portray gamers as racist mysoginistic etc and taking to twitter to compare them to isis and claim they should die and other stuff like that. several people started mass emailing the advertisers complaining about that. That reply was in reaction to that, after they started doing that. Escapist already silenced one of their editors. So Pikachu guy has the timeline confused, the advertiser thing come after the articles establishing the narrative.
This. Gamers have gotten tired of being called the scum of the earth, so they are contacting the people who continue to fund the site(the advertisers) and get them to put pressure on the owners and get them to shut the fuck up. "Gaming Journalists" forget that we are the people who give them money and hits, why the fuck do they continue to bite the hand that feeds them, I'll never know...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on August 31, 2014, 09:21:53 pm
Oh, so the "journalists" insult their readers following the feminism issue, the readers email the advertisers, and the advertisers kick the ass of the writers ? Okay, that works.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on August 31, 2014, 09:24:24 pm
"gamers" is such a broad term that can range from king hardcores to candy crush player that anyone claiming all gamers are x is really stupid
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Caddie on August 31, 2014, 09:54:52 pm
I'm having kind of a weird feeling about some of the stuff that Anita says. Her earlier videos were complete trash and I support neither her thesis on the effects of gaming on people nor censorship. When games started moving towards "mature themes" it felt different to me than it does now though. I feel like the novelty of every open world game having a strip club and having the word fuck in every cutscene has worn out. It's like I understand why anyone would get sick of seeing the kinds of things she mentions over and over again. I think playing through Watch Dogs is where it finally felt like the game was insulting me, though I don't particularly hate the scene with the Taken/Lady Gaga music video whore auction.
As anyone just as sick of those tropes as I am without directly supporting Anita's message?
About the Quinnspiracy stuff, to keep it short "gaming journalism" has always been laughable and I've never visited any of the sites that now have evidence of literally being in bed with the developers they are telling you to buy games of. I'm sorry for any of you who listened to their opinions and made bad purchase decisions based on it.
I couldn't care less about the term "gamer" because it always felt like I've been insulted for playing video games, this is no different. I'm not part of the culture behind it, I just always liked playing video games.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on August 31, 2014, 10:01:45 pm
being sick of a trope or style being used and being against it are two different things. I dont enjoy car/explosion movies like fast and furious, i think they are ridiculous. I wouldnt try to push anything censoring them because of that, or trying to insult people that enjoy them.
Its like with dead super heroes, ifyou dont enjoy them being killed left and right stop reading teen titans.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Caddie on August 31, 2014, 10:05:00 pm
I agree. Yeah that's the difference with how I feel about that stuff. Couldn't have worded it better.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on August 31, 2014, 10:08:15 pm
Yeah, if that makes you want to stop playing a game, then stop playing it. And if you find no more game that doesn't have that, no more movie that doesn't have explosions and fast cars, then sure, maybe games and movies aren't for you anymore. It's hard to say that there are no game and movie out there that doesn't do that, but maybe those that don't are also boring shit like Candy Crush or a Winnie the Pooh movie. ... That's what growing old feels like, isn't it ?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on August 31, 2014, 10:14:28 pm
Did you just shittalk Winnie the Pooh? I'll fight you.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Speedpreacher on September 01, 2014, 12:07:11 am
Oh, bother.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 01, 2014, 01:12:12 am
I thought this had some interesting points about nepotism in those things, and how they are all related and seem to push the same narrative when they feel pressured.
this guy been doing these videos on the theme , this is his third, they are all too big and he doesnt know how to effectively narrow down points but he has some interesting bits of info there.
>The End of Gamers - Dan Golding (Tumblr) https://archive.today/L4vJG
>The death of the “gamers” and the women who “killed” them - Casey Johnson, arstechnica (Aug 28, 5:00pm) https://archive.today/i928J
>It's Dangerous to Go Alone: Why Are Gamers So Angry? - Arthur Chu, The Daily Beast (Aug 28) https://archive.today/9NxHy
>Gaming Is Leaving “Gamers” Behind - Joseph Bernstein, Buzzfeed (Aug 28, 8:29 pm) https://archive.today/jVqJ8
>An awful week to care about video games - Chris Plante, Polygon (Aug 28, 1:21pm) https://archive.today/rkvO8
>Sexism, Misogyny, and online attacks: It's a horrible time to consider yourself a gamer - Patrick O'Rourke, Financial Post (Aug 28, 9:33pm) https://archive.today/HkPHc
>Fanboys, white knights, and the hairball of online misogyny - Tauriq Moosa, The Daily Beast (Aug 28) https://archive.today/wptL5
>This guy's embarassing relationship drama is killing the 'gamer' identity - Mike Pearl, Vice (Aug 29) https://archive.today/L4n6p
These people are making feminists look bad by banking on the victimization scheme. Rumour is that following all those "gamers are dead" they will try to push a new gamer term to identify true gamers.
I was wondering that, since the SJW movement have a negative effect on the gaming industry, how can the whole gamer culture knock a few teeth out of the movement's mouth, figuratively?
both of those are shitty attitudes to have. those are persons, not someone you should be "knocking teeth out" and minorities arent supposed to be "ignored". People saying stupid shit, sure, but ignoring someone because they are vocal and a minority is stupid.
context
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on September 06, 2014, 09:26:42 pm
I realy don't like Anita Sarkeesian but the guys who attack here are going way to far, it's realy insane.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on September 06, 2014, 09:51:00 pm
the whole thing has become "find bad thing someone in the opposite side has done, use it to make huge stupid generalizations" and i stopped giving a shit
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on September 07, 2014, 12:09:42 am
the whole thing has become "find bad thing someone in the opposite side has done, use it to make huge stupid generalizations" and i stopped giving a shit
This. It's beginning to really fuck up the entire movement and slowly giving the other side blanks to continue firing again and again. It's really screwing up what the ideal is trying to accomplish.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on September 07, 2014, 12:11:30 am
Isn't that pretty much how it always go in, like, anything ever ? the only hope there always is is that there are smart people on both sides who can filter the bullshit and stick to the actual valid points, and judge issues on that.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on September 07, 2014, 12:56:34 am
Isn't that pretty much how it always go in, like, anything ever ? the only hope there always is is that there are smart people on both sides who can filter the bullshit and stick to the actual valid points, and judge issues on that.
You know people never listen to the smart ones when there is dumb people make it "easier" for their points to be stated...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on September 07, 2014, 01:02:32 am
everyone is going to focus on the screaming monkeys and ignore anything worth being discussed. I said it when this first popped off ( the sex scandal stuff) that it was ridiculous to focus on quinn, and theres still people trying to argue about her sexual shit.
this whole thing has gotten to breitbart, a right wing news thing in britain. http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/01/Lying-Greedy-Promiscuous-Feminist-Bullies-are-Tearing-the-Video-Game-Industry-Apart
Have a more decent reading, and less exagerated too: http://theneedledrop.tumblr.com/post/95894002452/i-dont-think-anita-sarkeesians-videos-should-be
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on September 07, 2014, 01:50:33 am
everyone is going to focus on the screaming monkeys and ignore anything worth being discussed. I said it when this first popped off ( the sex scandal stuff) that it was ridiculous to focus on quinn, and theres still people trying to argue about her sexual shit.
this whole thing has gotten to breitbart, a right wing news thing in britain. http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/01/Lying-Greedy-Promiscuous-Feminist-Bullies-are-Tearing-the-Video-Game-Industry-Apart
Have a more decent reading, and less exagerated too: http://theneedledrop.tumblr.com/post/95894002452/i-dont-think-anita-sarkeesians-videos-should-be
I agree. I believe people on both sides still believe this is about Zoey Quinn STILL(not everyone on both sides, it's easily lopsided for the SJW side, but it's still pretty bad on ours) when it's about the overall insane corruption and collusion between gaming "journalists" and indie devs, Hell, it's freaking BAD when you rarely hear anything about the actual big name companies saying ANYTHING on the issue nor are they even a part of it.
I mean, I even ran across an article that virtually stated Game Journalists are dying due to game publishers and devs(like Nintendo bowing out of that area for years and other direct footage) and stuff like this is only digging the hole faster.
I mean sure, Kotaku and The Escapist are getting their integrity back, but the damage is still long done and at this rate, no one is really going to win.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on September 07, 2014, 01:52:09 am
I just like watching them make video responses and pointing out hypocrisy. It's very entertaining. Watch this with a bowl of cheerios:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on September 07, 2014, 03:49:51 am
Really, I could care less about the whole "gender" angle of the conflict. I also do not care too much about the sexual infidelity of Quinn.
However, what really gets on my nerves in this conflict is that the corrupt indie developers are levering their unethical influence to shut down criticism and the fact that the gaming press (and some of the mainstream press) are complacent in this censorship. The surge of articles calling gamers unclean and misogynistic simply cements the fact that I will never patronize these sites ever again. After all, if they do not treat their consumers nicely, they will lose my business.
I simply do not understand what happened to the "consumer is king" policy. Sure it has a few flaws, but it is a relatively safe policy to follow most of the time...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on September 07, 2014, 04:51:56 am
While it may not be 100%, there have been accusations of IGF and Indiecade being corrupted as well.
Video on the subject as well. It looks like this extends to FEZ more than people thought it would... EDIT: And yes, people are kinda telling the person not to include that intro anymore, but since someone else is making the videos(and she likes that intro) and he's mainly talking over it, I'm guessing he'll tell her to stop after this one.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on September 08, 2014, 09:16:02 pm
Can we keep Gamergate bullshit out of this thread please?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on September 09, 2014, 12:47:30 am
i think it's a bit too late for that /b/ro
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on September 09, 2014, 10:05:10 pm
Article jumped the gun super badly, so gonna take it off
Title: BLACK OUT STEAM
Post by: Iced on September 15, 2014, 02:24:57 am
Are you the change this world needs?! Join the side of FREEDOM today.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Flowrellik on September 15, 2014, 02:53:41 am
...really? Seriously this is all I have to say....Really? *Walks away*
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on September 15, 2014, 02:56:36 am
we all remember the day steam shut down for an hour making us all realize we need to stop sending death threats to anita sarkeesian. the harassment stopped. gaben put an end to the harassment. none of the shitheads at microsoft sony or nintendo could do it. only gaben. pc master race
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Do not even ask on September 15, 2014, 05:01:13 am
ahahahaha oh man
although... shutting down steam for an hour would cause rednavi to have a huge panic attack, so i'm 110% behind this petition that'll do nothing
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Gritsmaster on September 15, 2014, 05:10:18 am
LOL all of the supporters are trolls.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 15, 2014, 05:14:17 am
I support the fuckrednavi affirmative action
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on September 15, 2014, 09:12:30 am
The Fine Young Capitalists made a new Video
Not sure about it yet but I think it's better as the stuff that comes from Anita. ;D
Title: Re: BLACK OUT STEAM
Post by: DNZRX768 on September 15, 2014, 02:02:34 pm
Also (not that I'm against a move like this), but how is closing steam access for a mere hour supposed to send a substantial message?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: -Red- on September 15, 2014, 02:48:01 pm
I cannot ask for better friends.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 15, 2014, 05:32:25 pm
you are actually right, you can't.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on September 16, 2014, 11:35:34 pm
tossing this into the bag for the side of reason
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MxqSwzFy5w
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on September 18, 2014, 06:31:53 am
That's quite refreshing to watch. Everyone knew that the male to female ratio gamer statistic spewed out by feminists included bullshit like Angry Birds and Candy Crush. The type of feminists who complain about stuff that doesn't cater to women (because anything that doesn't benefit or include women is inherently misogynistic!) always use bullshit statistics.
Thankfully, many people are expressively realizing how these more vocal cherry picking feminists are just professional victims using radical feministic logic (which isn't very logical) to get rich or reknown quickly.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on September 18, 2014, 04:22:47 pm
dude it's polygon, link to a respectable news source since they are already shown to be partial in this case.
Pretty much. Polygon is the equivalent to the tabloids in nearly everyone's eyes after all the shit they pulled.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on September 18, 2014, 06:36:35 pm
there's this guy (one of the few to do research on his own regarding this subject) saying the same thing days ago https://twitter.com/Nero/status/510485248992608256
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on September 18, 2014, 07:11:17 pm
And was is a "respectable news source" for you guys?^^
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on September 18, 2014, 07:30:23 pm
Well, at least you now know Polygon is not one of them.
All I can tell you is learn from observation and experience.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on September 18, 2014, 08:03:38 pm
And was is a "respectable news source" for you guys?^^
kinda subjective but most people will quickly disregard polygon and kotaku
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on September 19, 2014, 02:13:50 am
Those two were part of the list of sites involved in the Zoe Quinn stuff so that's a hint, and it's recent enough even if you don't know the long history they have. Reliable sources are those that are not biased, not uninformed, not straight up lying, those that actually do their research without stopping halfway and explain everything to you etc.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 19, 2014, 02:22:01 am
there's this guy (one of the few to do research on his own regarding this subject) saying the same thing days ago https://twitter.com/Nero/status/510485248992608256
I have bad feelings about this, either lame internet threats and lots of publicity and victimizing by "serious" gaming sites managed to get the fbi involved OR someone actually seriously threatened her life over videos about videogames; fbi involvement is lose-lose.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on September 19, 2014, 02:42:22 am
Well, that still does not explain anything!
Sure there is bound to be a few bad apples in our basket, but the EXACT same thing can be said for the basket of Social Justice Warriors!
Unless there are a hundred thousand people sending her serious death threats, I would still say that it is nothing. After all, people are jackasses to other people a lot of the time on the Internet. It does not give you a free pass to play the victim card.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on September 19, 2014, 03:11:23 am
Sure there is bound to be a few bad apples in our basket, but the EXACT same thing can be said for the basket of Social Justice Warriors!
Unless there are a hundred thousand people sending her serious death threats, I would still say that it is nothing. After all, people are jackasses to other people a lot of the time on the Internet. It does not give you a free pass to play the victim card.
people are foolish that way...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on September 19, 2014, 03:13:50 am
Threats are threats and should be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on September 19, 2014, 03:22:49 am
Threats are threats and should be taken seriously.
unless if they actually live up to that threat, then there is no need to take it seriously.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Speedpreacher on September 19, 2014, 03:26:29 am
Think about what you just said.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on September 19, 2014, 03:33:32 am
internet threats are usually empty horseshit but it doesn't mean that those making them should get away unscathed
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on September 19, 2014, 03:56:48 am
If someone is sending you threats with your address on them and sending you child porn, theres no reason that they should be ignored with a "kids will be kids!" . Also yeah what a retarded comeback. "You should only take a threat seriously if someone acts on it" .
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on September 19, 2014, 01:07:09 pm
Only taking threats serious if someone acts on it is one of the dumbest things I've read all week, and I've been on tumblr at least twice this week.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on September 19, 2014, 11:08:17 pm
well fine!
here's another suggestion!
threaten them back fight fire with fire
or
call the police on them
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on September 19, 2014, 11:09:32 pm
Good ideas nobody thought about, im going to email them to Anita Sarkasieiiasian
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Speedpreacher on September 20, 2014, 12:21:03 am
Yeah, she should get somebody to Investigate those threats. Perhaps some kind of Federal Bureau or something.
Maybe you should quit while you're behind. No shame in it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Gritsmaster on September 20, 2014, 12:31:00 am
It's been 8 months and people are still taking Toonar seriously, which means we've regressed as a community. For shame.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jango Hakamichi on September 20, 2014, 12:51:44 am
It's all because Valodim sold his soul to the devil, and God is punishing the forum for his trangression by sending his guardian angel, Toonar, to smite us all.
Allah help us.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on September 20, 2014, 05:32:02 am
tldr, they were using mailing groups to discuss as a group how to cover the zoe quinn sex scandal ( about sleeping around with her married boss and several other people ) and someone brought up that they covered several similar scandals when it wasnt people of their clique. Like the cards against humanity guy that was accused on facebook of rape by an ex girlfriend.
Quote
Ryan Smith (The Onion AV Club) Aug 19
But quick question: how did some of you decide to publish the Josh Mattingly story from earlier this year: that appeared to be based on a private conversation about sex. Where do you see the line being drawn? And how do you guys feel about the Snapchat CEO’s emails from college being a story?
I was also wondering if when some of you published stories about Zoe Quinn’s harassment — did you actually ask for evidence of said harassment or just go by what she wrote on Twitter.
these are the leaked emails from the mailing list, dont expect the end of the world, the reality is more boring than anything, but its still an interesting read: http://yiannopoulos.net/2014/09/19/gamejournopros-zoe-quinn-email-dump/
Most of the things said wouldnt be worrysome if they werent supposedly journalists.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 20, 2014, 05:23:51 pm
gj videogame journalists, now they are becoming the laughing stockof entertainment/hobby journalists. next time the guy who cover events of people playing banjo with their feet will say "at least I have more integrity and ethics than a videogame journalist".
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on September 20, 2014, 10:51:18 pm
Mhhhhh looks like Zoe and Friends are conquering Cracked.com right now. http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-i-learned-as-internets-most-hated-person/ http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-ways-gamers-still-suck-at-dealing-with-women/
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on September 20, 2014, 11:01:34 pm
Ill, that's the stupid website that kept annoying me once upon a time. They entice people (like yourself) to click on their shitty articles with "lists" (which uses straight up lies at times) and humor (which sucks) to get people to buy into the idea that's they're something legitimate
She has a blog there, lmao. I'll find a better site to read this.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on September 20, 2014, 11:09:06 pm
Never said that cracked is something "legitimate" just said that Zoe & co are even there now.
I can't even go to a site where I normaly go to read some stupid stuff to have some fun, without finding Zoe and the rest of the "All Gamers are EVIL" idiots. -.-
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 21, 2014, 12:05:20 am
Never said that cracked is something "legitimate" just said that Zoe & co are even there now.
I can't even go to a site where I normaly go to read some stupid stuff to have some fun, without finding Zoe and the rest of the "All Gamers are EVIL" idiots. -.-
} taht man, even though I had already dropped cracked since I changed jobs, I'd ocasionally read one or two articles.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on September 21, 2014, 10:34:50 am
yeah when I found that out days ago, I decided I was done with Cracked forever.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on September 21, 2014, 04:23:38 pm
Me too.
I stayed away from cracked when the quality of the articles went downhill. These recent events solidified my boycott of Cracked.com forever.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 21, 2014, 06:22:57 pm
do you mean when they hired new writers, yeah I slowed down to one article a day back then, which has become one article per week now.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on September 21, 2014, 11:01:35 pm
do you mean when they hired new writers, yeah I slowed down to one article a day back then, which has become one article per week now.
I think it's mainly the creator in general...
I mean hell, ALOT of people have issues with Cracked themselves on TvTropes, which can be easily seen in their respective parts.
But yeah, I was already on thin ice with them on certain subjects(Hey, all these female costumes are sexists for reasons, but the males that wear only speedos isn't because I say so...then create an article just to BITCH at those who pointed out his double standards...nice and that's just ONE example), the actions they took after the Zoe Quinn blog was the breaking the camel's back for me.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Umezono on September 21, 2014, 11:25:09 pm
i like cracked, some of their writers are really great comedians/satirists.
but a lot of it is now clickbait, and literal reposts of their old content.
not to mention adam tod brown, who literally just writes rants about mainstream stuff he doesnt like.
so its good in small doses, and you gotta look for certain writers.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: FastFlash on September 21, 2014, 11:39:43 pm
Am I the only one who thinks cracked.com is still good? I never really paid attention to the Zoe Quinn thing, but didn't these prove to be false? Altough I think cracked payed to much attention to it, ex-boy/girlfriends leaking personal info probably isn't that uncommon, and I don't really understand why everyone "hated"(not the right word) her, but like I said, I didn't pay much attention to it This is why I don't read gaming journalism in general About the generalisation thing that has already been said on this thread, a bunch of screaming angry jerks will always attract more attention than the rest, even tough they are the minority
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Hannah Montana Forever on September 21, 2014, 11:58:26 pm
I think the most bad thing are the stereotypes, like mai shiranui and related, yes, the character design is attractive, but the way as she is portrayed is like a *you know*,just an explotation or fan service,or any adjetive for that in the worst way looking ranchy and explotation,I prefer see girls like King,or look good with style like Yuri Sakazaki,or Mignon Beart,Chun Li,or Lara Croft.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jango Hakamichi on September 22, 2014, 12:37:14 am
Listing Lara Croft with those chars is really weird considering her whole initial ad campaign (at least in America) was how big her boobs were. It would be like if Street Fighter was trying to advertise itself by pointing out Chun-Li's boobs.
Unless you're talking about post-reboot Lara Croft in which case... no comment.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on September 22, 2014, 05:02:17 am
but a lot of it is now clickbait, and literal reposts of their old content.
ad revenue, they are also splitting the lists in more pages so you are forced to watch more ads for that same reason.
Yeah seeing them literally reposting old content in fucking huge compilation articles was a sign that they were going downhill, along with JF Sargent's white knighting.
Then Zoë Quinn happened and I decided enough was enough. I do not understand why the net wants to defend this horrible person and businesswoman.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: FastFlash on September 22, 2014, 09:42:00 pm
Then Zoë Quinn happened and I decided enough was enough. I do not understand why the net wants to defend this horrible person and businesswoman.
Can someone explain to me this Zoe Quinn stuff? She made a game and her ex-boyfriend said she had sex with game journalists so they gave her good reviews? It was proven false, so why is she exactly a horrible person?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on September 22, 2014, 10:13:27 pm
She's a horrible person because she does not support the charities she claimed to support (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxRyE22CAAAl9Hz.png:large), and is a hypocrite (in addition to cheating with at least 5 different guys; cheating is a shitty thing to do and you know it).
She's a horrible businesswoman because she slept with at least one journalist, who DID talk about her FREE game.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on September 22, 2014, 10:26:23 pm
She's a horrible person because she does not support the charities she claimed to support (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxRyE22CAAAl9Hz.png:large), and is a hypocrite (in addition to cheating with at least 5 different guys; cheating is a shitty thing to do and you know it).
She's a horrible businesswoman because she slept with at least one journalist, who DID talk about her FREE game.
get the fuck outta here!
so all that she was talking about in her vids and shit we're just hypocrisy? damn... I'm starting to loose respect for her now(not that I had any to begin with), and she seemed like a smart girl to begin with...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on September 22, 2014, 10:30:50 pm
She eventually donated, but only after she got called out like you see above.
In addition, she used their name without telling them. Also illegal! Again, she's also a bad businesswoman.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: _Data_Drain_ on September 22, 2014, 10:39:33 pm
She's a horrible person because she does not support the charities she claimed to support (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxRyE22CAAAl9Hz.png:large), and is a hypocrite (in addition to cheating with at least 5 different guys; cheating is a shitty thing to do and you know it).
She's a horrible businesswoman because she slept with at least one journalist, who DID talk about her FREE game.
Though about the cheating part....
Was there any evidence of this from any sources... other then her ex? Things can be faked online you know.
....
However, she IS still a bitch though, because of what she did to TFYC, and that link you showed.
Plus she just seems like a stuck up person in general.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Umezono on September 23, 2014, 03:01:29 am
(in addition to cheating with at least 5 different guys; cheating is a shitty thing to do and you know it).
i dont remember this ever being proven or verified, wasnt it just her angry ex saying that
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on September 23, 2014, 03:21:12 am
yes... we need more information to at least cover this up. you're confusing me right now...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jango Hakamichi on September 23, 2014, 03:37:02 am
I just googled around for Nathan Grayson (the dude from Kotaku that she slept with) and this is all I got:
On Kotaku, he covered a game show she was in with Jontron, but that was the only article he's ever written involving Zoe Quinn.
On Rock, Paper, Shotgun, he made an article featuring 50 games that were, at the moment, pending a Steam Greenlight, and Depression Quest was there (I should note, however, that the only screenshot in that article is of Depression Quest, and it was listed as one of his personal recommends out of three games)
So unless Kotaku and RPS deleted the relevant articles, he never actually "reviewed" the game. He just happened to suggest Greenlighting it in the RPS article. Still doesn't make the situation better though.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on September 23, 2014, 03:45:21 am
ugh yall talking about shit you dont know anything about and toonar is the worse.
Her ex uploaded logs that had her admitting to having betrayed him with at least five guys, one of whom was her married boss another of whom was the kotaku guy. This was the scandal that everyone was going over. Specially because in those she admitted to fool him in order to keep going on the relationship even after already have cheated five times ( she herself compared it to raping him ) . Her boyfriend repeatedly insisted that she had to at least contact the wife of the married boss and she kept refusing claiming it would ruin her image as a symbol for feminism. Its not proven in anywhere that this helped her career in anyway. The whole thing just showed that there was some kind of collusion going on when people talking about THAT scandal noticed that it was being censored or erased everywhere while other similar scandals involving male artists and videogame producers were open game.
This was later proven to actually be collusion when their emails where they planned on how to cover those things come out. Also all of those "reporters" that were supporting those same girls on patreon. If toonar goes again about how anita videos didnt make her seem like a cheater im gonna choke a bitch. That whole thing had fuckall to do with Anita other than she being another feminist.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on September 25, 2014, 04:52:40 am
ugh yall talking about shit you dont know anything about and toonar is the worse.
Her ex uploaded logs that had her admitting to having betrayed him with at least five guys, one of whom was her married boss another of whom was the kotaku guy. This was the scandal that everyone was going over. Specially because in those she admitted to fool him in order to keep going on the relationship even after already have cheated five times ( she herself compared it to raping him ) . Her boyfriend repeatedly insisted that she had to at least contact the wife of the married boss and she kept refusing claiming it would ruin her image as a symbol for feminism. Its not proven in anywhere that this helped her career in anyway. The whole thing just showed that there was some kind of collusion going on when people talking about THAT scandal noticed that it was being censored or erased everywhere while other similar scandals involving male artists and videogame producers were open game.
This was later proven to actually be collusion when their emails where they planned on how to cover those things come out. Also all of those "reporters" that were supporting those same girls on patreon. If toonar goes again about how anita videos didnt make her seem like a cheater im gonna choke a bitch. That whole thing had fuckall to do with Anita other than she being another feminist.
you know what?
I think I get you now...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on September 28, 2014, 04:04:36 am
guys, I've figured it out. she's been lying the whole time. go to this guys channel and check his word on her https://www.youtube.com/thunderf00t
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on September 28, 2014, 04:43:28 am
guys, I've figured it out. she's been lying the whole time. go to this guys channel and check his word on her https://www.youtube.com/thunderf00t
youre prob one of those people who believe anything people say in a youtube video lol
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Speedpreacher on September 29, 2014, 03:44:48 pm
At his age, he probably believes anything that sounds halfway convincing period. That's why he's always "figuring" things out.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on September 29, 2014, 05:53:12 pm
To be honest, I never got the full idea of what was happening until I read this: http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/
Doesn't get into what happened with Zoe Quinn but Google searches can fill in that blank. Mabye it will help Toonar as well but you know what they say about leading a horse to water. :-\
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on October 05, 2014, 12:01:06 am
Quote
Critics of GamerGate argue that the revolt is nothing more than a pushback against a ‘broader’ audience. They say it’s anti-diversity, anti-inclusive. Most often, we hear it’s ‘toxic’.
Dozens of articles have been published in this vein. They have been a long time coming. For years, politicized games journalists have harbored a simmering mix of contempt and fear of the current gaming audience.
The problem with this narrative is that it mistakes opposition to culture warriors with opposition to diversity. It mistakes a disdain for ideology with a disdain for inclusivity.
Quote
Anti-gamers would like to characterize the current divide as one between inclusivity and exclusivity, but reality will always confound this narrative. Men, women, minorities, left-wingers, right-wingers, and even feminists have taken the side of GamerGate in recent weeks. It’s hard to find a movement that is more open to diversity – both of opinion and background.
This is in stark contrast to the intolerant lock-step of their opponents, who have sought to shame and browbeat developers and other journalists into accepting their worldview.
One of the reasons why TFYC’s popularity continues to grow among gamers (and decline among their opponents) is precisely because they do not use these methods. Despite holding almost identical views to the ‘Social Justice Warriors’, they find themselves excluded from the activist clique due to their relatively tolerant attitudes. They are against attacking gamers’ current choices, preferring to create new ones alongside them. They do not seek to ferment fear and panic, or shame existing developers into altering their design process. They don’t want to ‘change the world’ – they just want to add to it.
Gamers will always welcome new people and new ideas with open arms. What they will not welcome is a Thompson-like war for cultural hegemony, regardless of whether it comes from the left or the right.
In a way, gamers of all races, genders and orientations would like to exclude a minority. That minority is the culture warriors, who thrive in an atmosphere of fear and moral condemnation. They are an ill wind that blows no man or woman of any ethnicity any good.
I am keenly aware that many critics will protest that they do not wish to create moral panics; they merely want to observe and analyse. I sympathize with these arguments.
However, when art is accused of perpetuating violence, sexism, or racism, it has strayed beyond artistic critique and into the realm of political argument. “Subjective analysis” cannot be used as an excuse when historical and sociological arguments are being presented. Furthermore, when the entire gaming community is attacked as a pack of bigoted savages corrupted by gaming tropes, it is not even an argument. It’s a panic.
Isn't GameSpot anti-GG though? Last I checked, all discussion of it was banned there and the staff was anti-GG. Has that changed?
not all the unethical sites that are in the secret mailing list are antigg, some of them are just unethical.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on October 05, 2014, 05:27:12 am
No, it's not just that, I remember an image that was being compiled for a list of anti-GG, pro-GG, and neutral sites. Sites on the "anti" side were sites where the staff and general communities were against GG and would censor/remove threads with a pro stance. GameSpot was on the anti side for doing the latter IINM.
Either way I'll have to check out that article later..
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on October 05, 2014, 05:33:01 am
got it; also I just did a mental exercise and changed the word gamer for "black person" or "female" on my mind to realize how bigoted the anti-gamer side sounds (or use the n word for full effect).
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on October 05, 2014, 05:37:56 am
To be honest, I never got the full idea of what was happening until I read this: http://techcrunch.com/2014/09/25/gamergate-an-issue-with-2-sides/
Doesn't get into what happened with Zoe Quinn but Google searches can fill in that blank. Mabye it will help Toonar as well but you know what they say about leading a horse to water. :-\
i'll see about this later :) always focusing on truth
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on October 22, 2014, 06:10:37 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/WKpzr99.png) looking forward to the expert analysis on the Fucking Fuck Toy, bayonetta
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on October 22, 2014, 06:14:45 pm
*saves that for his band's name
Title: Re: Bayonetta 2 [Wii U]
Post by: Iced on October 22, 2014, 06:15:06 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/WKpzr99.png)
Gogdamn, bayonetta rekted
Title: Re: Re: Bayonetta 2 [Wii U]
Post by: Tyrant Belial on October 22, 2014, 06:24:50 pm
It's funny cus Bayonetta was designed by a female.
Oh I have to find Kamiya's response again.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on October 22, 2014, 06:38:12 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/WKpzr99.png) looking forward to the expert analysis on the Fucking Fuck Toy, bayonetta
I wonder how many parts she will stretch this out...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on October 22, 2014, 10:10:41 pm
these articles are real good reads on why sarkeesian is not very good at what she does. it's a very nice read not full of SARKEESIAN FUCKING DESTROYED!! SARKEESIAN OWNED!!! GIVE MONEY TO MY PATREON like that other dude's videos http://gamesided.com/2014/09/08/sarkeesian-truth-part-1-straw-feminist-trojan-horse-censorship/
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on October 22, 2014, 10:16:17 pm
Even if she is created for straight males to enjoy the game even more? What's the problem? Is she going to create a problem by cherry picking scenes, like she usually does? I can wait to find out.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on October 22, 2014, 10:28:36 pm
article said:
An entire school of "sex positive" feminism has arisen in reaction against this idea, claiming that women can enjoy sex in whatever they wish and still be empowered, provided they consent, and that displaying the female form, even when done for male pleasure, need not be objectifying and degrading and can, in fact, be empowering if norms that treat "slutiness" (inventing words ftw) as automatically bad are broken down.
Wow, that sounds a little like a certain game she's mentioning. Oh the irony.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: FastFlash on October 22, 2014, 10:37:45 pm
An entire school of "sex positive" feminism has arisen in reaction against this idea, claiming that women can enjoy sex in whatever they wish and still be empowered, provided they consent, and that displaying the female form, even when done for male pleasure, need not be objectifying and degrading and can, in fact, be empowering if norms that treat "slutiness" (inventing words ftw) as automatically bad are broken down.
Wow, that sounds a little like a certain game she's mentioning. Oh the irony.
Where's the link to that article? This is interesting...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on October 22, 2014, 10:41:56 pm
it's the one i linked to
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on October 25, 2014, 02:34:30 am
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0wDBHtCYAAbXnd.jpg) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0wDA8ICcAALm9P.jpg) why would anyone listen to this disgusting moron
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on October 25, 2014, 02:39:15 am
Wow, that's not blatantly misandrist at all!
EDIT: also reminds me of this this (http://alexxdz.tumblr.com/post/67087024022/you-know-feminism-and-social-justice-are-going) kinda.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on October 25, 2014, 05:12:20 am
I'm more than certain that there's tons of evidence to back up such a claim.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on October 25, 2014, 12:30:48 pm
Nobody's shooting up schools to be manly. Actually, In this day and age, women are more prone to trying to be macho and manly than men because of all this empowerment nonsense. When you lie to an entire generation and tell them that girls and boys are equal, you get a bunch of fucked up people who can't understand basic realities. I'm willing to bet that that fucks people's heads up.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on October 25, 2014, 01:57:36 pm
These tweets pushes so many anger buttons it is not even funny.
Misandrist, misinforming the real reasons why people commit mass shootings (note: most of the time, it's mental issues), AND standing on the dead bodies of mass shooting victims? Is there a low she won't go to?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Xhominid on October 25, 2014, 07:39:11 pm
Because she's a woman, and every man must obey what a woman says without question or they are misogynists who don't care about women(a literal quote she stated)
Nobody's shooting up schools to be manly. Actually, In this day and age, women are more prone to trying to be macho and manly than men because of all this empowerment nonsense. When you lie to an entire generation and tell them that girls and boys are equal, you get a bunch of fucked up people who can't understand basic realities. I'm willing to bet that that fucks people's heads up.
Don't toss around facts, they don't want to hear that. They want to believe what they are doing isn't hurting the Feminist label anymore than the misogynists out to destroy it!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on October 26, 2014, 05:31:56 pm
Hatred confirmed for manliest game in existence, thanks Anita. :)
On to people who actually have some idea what they're talking about. Lengthy interview with female gamers and devs.
Alicia Andrew: As a developer, sexualization of characters is a topic that's come up in some great discussions. I use Bayonetta as an example of "sexy" done right. A lot of the discussion about female representation seems to get stuck at whether its appropriate for a character to be "sexy". Some people see the discussion around the dislike for the "chain-mail bikini" as a form of censorship or a push towards characters they see as potentially boring or downright prudish. I see the discussion as more nuanced than just an issue of cleavage. In my opinion, it's an issue of ownership.
Emily Gitelman: I think the female characters in Bayonetta are presented incredibly poorly, and certainly over sexualized. They're a male fantasy, completely. I'm going to focus on Bayonetta herself. To start with her physical appearance, Bayonetta is built like a super model, has a sexy English accent, and walks around in a skin-tight catsuit that disappears and basically gives her censor bars when she casts spells. It's practically a reward for the player: use a powerful attack; see a naked woman. As soon as Bayonetta displays power, she is stripped of her clothing and her dignity. When her health runs too low, her catsuit also disappears. The symbolism (lip marks, flowers, butterflies) used in her attacks is very stereotypically feminine in a way that box female sexuality into a narrow category. These are calculated ways of making her seem like a Strong Female Character, but they actually undercut her agency and power as the lead character of a franchise.
Vivian "SJ" James: I think there are issues for sure, in that it contributes to a status quo of women being sexualized in games. However, it's so rare to have an aggressively sexual (as opposed to passively sexual, aka a sexual object) protagonist woman who has more to her character than just fanservice. I think she captures a lot of elements of the kind of woman I'd really like to be. As much as she is a part of a status quo of sexualized women characters, I think she's substantially different from how those characters are often handled and I think that's important.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: SNT on October 26, 2014, 09:38:14 pm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11187392/Washington-state-high-school-shooting.html Apparently it was over a girl, so it makes sense she'd pursue the male entitlement angle.
<anita tweets> why would anyone listen to this disgusting moron
That seems to be the pattern with her: indeterminate number of divisive, spiteful tweets, followed by one more conservative, almost reasonable one. I said the same thing about her E3 coverage; if she moderated her message more she wouldn't get nearly as much attention hate as she does.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on October 29, 2014, 06:38:54 am
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on October 30, 2014, 05:54:25 pm
Anita Sarkeesian Colbert Report
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bea on October 30, 2014, 10:06:17 pm
... For most part of the interview, she presented her point pretty well. I am surprised and impressed. Didn't ever think she could do it.
The bit about gamergate was her defending herself, though. Overall, positively impressed with it. She conveyed a more inclusive message in the show than she did in all of her videos.
Edit: Link for the video. Viacom took the Youtube one down - http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/wr7hqq/gamergate---anita-sarkeesian
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on October 30, 2014, 10:55:25 pm
The overall result is neutral, I suppose.
Although I have noticed in some areas where she comes off as quite weak in her position, and it looks like she's cracking in some areas. Like the one time where she is prompted to list three games that are very sexist, but failed to do so despite talking about the subject so much.
Also, I have heard that they cut out some of the more interesting questions. I would like to have the uncut version please.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on November 02, 2014, 01:30:00 am
Wasn't Anita just supporting that racist Asian girl named Suey Park who wanted to cancel Colbert because she took his satire out of context because he's a white male? I guess that doesn't matter when she's presented with airtime, huh? What a hypocrite.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Flowrellik on November 02, 2014, 01:46:05 am
yeap the very same bitch. It gets funny how so many people out there made vids to prove Anita's bullshittiness but Ive yet to see one that can put her in her place by shutting up.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on November 04, 2014, 12:14:30 am
(http://i.imgur.com/VwPMgpy.jpg)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on November 04, 2014, 02:27:55 am
really now? I don't ever recall her having to leave home, cuz as far as I knew she was in a fucking dorm when she was whining about fucking satire, which is like the safest place you can be. Nor do I recall any threats of violence directed specifically at her.
What a piece of shit.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on November 04, 2014, 10:47:53 pm
Knives are being mailed to people. Fires were set off on the house of people that were doxxed. Emails were hacked. syringes filled with strange substances send to their houses.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Makkah on November 07, 2014, 05:27:02 pm
This shit really needs to stop. You don't get to threaten and/or turn someones life upside down just because you don't like what they have to say. I don't believe there is a correlation between video game and real world violence and aggression, but how do they think this asinine behaviour will be interpreted by those who do? When they catch one of these idiots, and they will, I hope they make a mighty fine example out of them.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on November 07, 2014, 05:41:20 pm
the people sending the knives and stuff are anti gaming edit:( or at least anti gamergate people, so, part of the sjw movement? I guess, maybe.)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on November 07, 2014, 05:51:20 pm
yeah, it's like those rape and murder threats that are reported without saying who the victim is so sjws calling on mysoginy, then the source reveals they were aimed at males to shut up the sjw.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Flowrellik on November 07, 2014, 06:22:43 pm
ugh. I swear this gamergate bullshit needs to stop. Why isn't anyone just shutting these assfuckers up once and for all? It's shit like that this that makes me want to puke.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on November 07, 2014, 06:26:38 pm
why aren't the cops or the government doing shit about this? these people act like their fucking nazis. these idiots think they're the ones in control, and if anyone dare to oppose to them, they deserve to die!
pathetic... This really does need to stop.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Flowrellik on November 07, 2014, 06:34:47 pm
Agreed. This shit needs to stop asap. Oh and to all you Anita haters, have some fuel to your fire. https://www.tumblr.com/search/anita+sarkeesian+is+a+liar
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: supervegeta on November 07, 2014, 06:52:29 pm
Agreed. This shit needs to stop asap. Oh and to all you Anita haters, have some fuel to your fire. https://www.tumblr.com/search/anita+sarkeesian+is+a+liar
you might wanna go and read Iced's article, man.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on November 07, 2014, 07:32:37 pm
ugh. I swear this gamergate bullshit needs to stop. Why isn't anyone just shutting these assfuckers up once and for all? It's shit like that this that makes me want to puke.
The amusing thing about this comment is that it could apply to either side. "Just shut these assfuckers up once and for all" : the way everyone and anyone feels in an argument.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on November 07, 2014, 07:38:02 pm
This entire thing is ridiculous. So much better uses of time than to mail kitchen utensils to people who don't agree with you.
the people sending the knives and stuff are anti gaming edit:( or at least anti gamergate people, so, part of the sjw movement? I guess, maybe.)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the impression that the people doing it was pro-GamerGate but didn't like how the two identities in question (who were trying to speak in support of them) were handling things, idk.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on November 07, 2014, 07:43:44 pm
No, they were sent from people against GG.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on November 07, 2014, 07:51:13 pm
I got the impression that the people doing it was pro-GamerGate but didn't like how the two identities in question (who were trying to speak in support of them) were handling things
Uh, why ? The article doesn't say anything like that. The people threatened are not anti-gamergate, they're pro-gamergate. Without indication that they're being expressly terrible at defending gamergate, logic dictates that they're harassed for being pro gamergate, and until an investigation actually tells us who sent it, the obvious guess is that the threats and harassment come from anti-gamergate people. The whole article is centered on that sentence "When you bring light to the harassment of Sarkeesian and Wu, don’t leave out the doxxing of GG Feminist, academic feminist, or death threats sent to Boogie, a prominent YouTube celebrity, in the shadows." which is there to say that yes, people from the other side of the argument are ALSO being threatened, not just the over-mediatized douches. And not necessarily by the same people who somehow think that these guys aren't representing them well enough - such an assumption would be a pretty big bias.
the article said:
A feminist, a gamer, and a journalist writing for TechRaptor and Gamesided, and yet a woman who does not agree with Sarkeesian’s critique, I am an outsider. I have been harassed on Twitter and Reddit, I have had my personal e-mails hacked, and it is certainly not by those who support this revolt. It is by trolls and those who believe that as a woman, I am a traitor to my gender for not wishing to quell this debate, for not automatically siding with Anita. I am a woman who wishes to listen to both sides of the debate, and so I must have internalized my misogyny, I must be misguided, and blinded by the ideas of men. I am now excluded from a community that used to include me.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: supervegeta on November 07, 2014, 07:54:42 pm
I got the impression that the people doing it was pro-GamerGate but didn't like how the two identities in question (who were trying to speak in support of them) were handling things
Uh, why ? The article doesn't say anything like that. The people threatened are not anti-gamergate, they're pro-gamergate. Without indication that they're being expressly terrible at defending gamergate, logic dictates that they're harassed for being pro gamergate, and until an investigation actually tells us who sent it, the obvious guess is that the threats and harassment come from anti-gamergate people. The whole article is centered on that sentence "When you bring light to the harassment of Sarkeesian and Wu, don’t leave out the doxxing of GG Feminist, academic feminist, or death threats sent to Boogie, a prominent YouTube celebrity, in the shadows." which is there to say that yes, people from the other side of the argument are ALSO being threatened, not just the over-mediatized douches. And not necessarily by the same people who somehow think that these guys aren't representing them well enough - such an assumption would be a pretty big bias.
the article said:
A feminist, a gamer, and a journalist writing for TechRaptor and Gamesided, and yet a woman who does not agree with Sarkeesian’s critique, I am an outsider. I have been harassed on Twitter and Reddit, I have had my personal e-mails hacked, and it is certainly not by those who support this revolt. It is by trolls and those who believe that as a woman, I am a traitor to my gender for not wishing to quell this debate, for not automatically siding with Anita. I am a woman who wishes to listen to both sides of the debate, and so I must have internalized my misogyny, I must be misguided, and blinded by the ideas of men. I am now excluded from a community that used to include me.
i thought the article was pretty clear about that.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on November 07, 2014, 07:54:47 pm
Quote
I have been harassed on Twitter and Reddit, I have had my personal e-mails hacked, and it is certainly not by those who support this revolt. It is by trolls and those who believe that as a woman, I am a traitor to my gender for not wishing to quell this debate, for not automatically siding with Anita.
Wow, turns out reading that part would've helped.
I don't wanna know what it will take for all of this to end (or at least die down).
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Makkah on November 07, 2014, 09:46:02 pm
the people sending the knives and stuff are anti gaming edit:( or at least anti gamergate people, so, part of the sjw movement? I guess, maybe.)
Ah, I see. I kept getting a 404 while trying to read the article earlier. It seems to be up now, but the 404 still happens occasionally... which is weird (http://i.cubeupload.com/eWqgAM.png). Anyway, my point still stands for the most part though, harassing people for an opposing opinion, no matter what it is, is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on November 07, 2014, 09:54:57 pm
I don't wanna know what it will take for all of this to end (or at least die down).
the "discussion" from both sides will never end. "gamergate" always existed in one way or another (people complaining about game websites being shitty), it just has a name now and has gotten some shit done. internet threats and people being shitty in general will always exist no matter how many people tweet #StopBullying. twitter's reporting system seems to be excruciatingly slow and not very effective, that's what needs to be fixed if anything
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on November 07, 2014, 10:44:51 pm
we have all been on the internet long enough to recognize that people that harass are always present. The more mediatic the situation the more prone for it to happen. I find it more dangerous when someone thinks they are doing moral justice while harassing and harming others. Moral groups attract extremists that want outlets for their aggression. We shouldnt fail to see the forest because of the trees. Not all christians are bombing abortion clinics and not all sjw are sending out threats and trying to harm people.
The anti gg would be less of an issue if it wasnt for all their public figures acting like bullying monsters and claiming moral superiority after, it just validates the extremists. Gawker repeatedly trying to push the narrative that "this time they are OVER!" has just been inciting that further. Everytime people fail to recognize "the other side" as humans this kind of situations just escalates and escalates.
The audience of Anita isnt people who already know games, its normal people who know nothing of the genre, preferably feminists that are afraid of the stereotypes, stereotypes that she then reinforces. It would be hard to describe me with anything other than liberal, shit one of my oldest friends is trans, Ive come from a liberal arts background. And yet I can see this for what it is. Anita, Phil Fish, Mcintosh, they are all in it because they can avoid any criticism while doing it, they can become critics and get praised for being moral as long as they keep a puritan outlook on things. Its the same stuff Jack thompson did, just instead of targeting christians they are targeting sjw ( as their audience, not as a mark ) . When people criticizing them appear, they can dismiss them as being the monster they were speaking of. (http://i.imgur.com/8Jcc7RC.png)
have a interesting article http://metaleater.com/video-games/feature/rethinking-gamergate and a concise exchange between adults (http://i.imgur.com/GtUzGVg.jpg)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on November 09, 2014, 01:25:42 am
The audience of Anita isnt people who already know games, its normal people who know nothing of the genre, preferably feminists that are afraid of the stereotypes, stereotypes that she then reinforces.
you mean like the stereotypes you'd see in a sitcom? like "married with children"? (http://j.static-locatetv.com/images/content/4/886548_married_.._with_children.jpg)
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
don't ask how i know about the show. i see it all morning on TBS.
and i know this sounds stupid but it could be the case.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jango Hakamichi on November 09, 2014, 10:02:22 am
I don't even get what the point of your post is.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Umezono on November 11, 2014, 02:05:29 pm
holy shit lol, toonar please stop posting in serious threads
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on November 15, 2014, 05:29:17 am
(http://i.imgur.com/ekWMkMl.jpg)
are you fucking shitting me
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: supervegeta on November 15, 2014, 05:47:31 am
again with the generalizing... and lol at the first comment :D
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on November 15, 2014, 05:53:02 am
So a man and a woman are two of my co-workers. I tell someone that I shit-talk the man because he has facial hair, a masculine body shape, and a coarse voice, while treating the woman like a decent human being.
Great to know that it wouldn't be considered sexist, wonder if that same logic applies to race.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: megaman_zer0 on November 15, 2014, 06:04:08 am
Actually. there are people who beleive that racism against white people doesn't exist for the exact same reason its a copy paste of another Ideology which is leading me to think that she is just trolling for attention at this point.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on November 15, 2014, 06:09:06 am
too bad feminists can't pull the white-something (white-african, white-latin, white-native ) when a female does something they don't like (male-female(?)).
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Flowrellik on November 15, 2014, 06:19:05 am
Personally I think a lot of this is crap, be it sexism or racism alike. We as a whole species are not dominant over another just because you think you are better regardless of belief, gender, skin color, sub-species or even as stupid as higher intelligence because you have a scrap of paper you earned in some failure of a community college as proof (which even then you might have cheated your way to get there by every means). I wish people would understand this. And one more thing, for the abusive leaders in the world, heres a quote for ya. "Just 'Cos You Got The Power, That don't mean you got the right." - Ian "Lemmy" Fraser Kilmister (good song btw.)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on November 15, 2014, 06:59:53 am
why would anyone listen to this disgusting pile of shit at this point
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lucky_Chloe on November 15, 2014, 07:17:27 am
Review tech here said it best and pretty much share alot of what i wanted to say http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2A6KOzs7pc
remind me of the time when some idiot said that Animals should also have equal rights to humen , may as well have the same degree of bunishment for any mistake an animal makes
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on November 15, 2014, 11:11:47 am
What the fuck are you talking about?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on November 15, 2014, 05:23:55 pm
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jango Hakamichi on November 16, 2014, 06:45:26 pm
What does any of that have to do with Feminism in video games? (no to mention it was brought up in Random Topic)
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on November 17, 2014, 12:05:01 am
Because it is from Anita Sarkeesian, the Woman who wants to destroy gaming like it is right know and wants to rebuild it in a feminist way or something like that. xD
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Speedpreacher on November 17, 2014, 12:10:46 am
The article Toonar posted has nothing to do with Anita or the topic of feminism in video games, that was the point of the post.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on November 17, 2014, 12:14:44 am
Because it is from Anita Sarkeesian, the Woman who wants to destroy gaming like it is right know and wants to rebuild it in a feminist way or something like that. xD
did you click on the article at all
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on November 17, 2014, 04:30:33 pm
For some reason I completely ignored the post of Toonar, and believed that Jango Hakamichi was talking about the Tweet from Anita. Sorry. =(
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Mami on November 17, 2014, 05:15:20 pm
don't worry, more of us should do that.
and lol@for some reason, I bet you got him on your ignore list.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on November 17, 2014, 10:58:13 pm
http://thebestgamers.net/art.html
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on November 18, 2014, 12:02:05 am
lol go back in the cave after you deal with the old man and then walk around for a bit
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: -Red- on November 18, 2014, 12:26:33 am
I WAS WEARING MY HEADPHONES YOU MISANDRIST FUCKER.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: supervegeta on November 18, 2014, 12:36:02 am
it's not as funny as they think it is, kinda reminds me of how jealous children like to scribble other children's drawings.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on November 18, 2014, 12:38:00 am
lol what
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: supervegeta on November 18, 2014, 12:47:08 am
they want to get more attention by mutilating 28 year old game. do they think that will make gamers angry? that's pathetic.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Black Hatter on November 18, 2014, 12:48:31 am
That was completely pointless. What the fucking fuck was that?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on November 18, 2014, 12:50:47 am
you two missed the point. it's satire. it's not actually supporting any of what the video says. it's mockery of people that unironically think like that about games
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Snakebyte on November 18, 2014, 12:50:54 am
Oh my god that was gold.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on November 18, 2014, 12:51:10 am
Damn it, Titiln beat me to it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: -Red- on November 18, 2014, 12:57:05 am
...wow, there's people who believe that this parody actually supports what they're saying there? Oh God...
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
I miss the whoosh emoticon :(
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on November 18, 2014, 01:01:57 am
We still have :bigwhoosh:
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Bastard Walt on November 18, 2014, 01:06:43 am
... these are awful times to be a netizen.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on November 18, 2014, 01:08:32 am
Just please stop and communicate like an actual person and not a memelord.
This. Start with simple words rather than idiotic memes and you'll get somewhere.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Niitris on December 03, 2014, 06:44:20 pm
Feminist Frequency presents:
Quote
Many women have courageously spoken out about how they experience alienation and harassment in gaming. Despite this fact, too many male gamers still dismiss the issue as "no big deal" and insist that there isn’t really a problem. One of the luxuries of being a member of a privileged group is that the benefits afforded often remain invisible. This blindness allows many men, even well meaning men, to remain blissfully unaware of what roughly half of all gamers experience on a fairly regular basis. With that in mind the following is a checklist of some of the concrete benefits that male gamers automatically receive simply for being male gamers.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Just No Point on December 03, 2014, 06:57:08 pm
LOL I can say with strong certainty that by finding this video hilarious I perpetuate my gender as sexist pigs!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: The Aboriginal One on December 03, 2014, 07:03:37 pm
Not so much, it is the why you find it funny that might be the perpetuation.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on December 03, 2014, 07:10:49 pm
Never go full McIntosh.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: supervegeta on December 03, 2014, 07:25:42 pm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2817191/62p-HOUR-s-women-sleeping-16-room-paid-make-Ed-Harriet-s-45-Feminist-Looks-Like-T-shirts.html First world feminist are upset of how fictional women are treated in video games, while real women get treated like shit by them. hypocrisy much?
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: The Aboriginal One on December 03, 2014, 08:04:22 pm
Sadly, many people have their cause and forget to understand that there's more than two parties in the stance. People are too busy trying to make a point that they forget that people are hurting, and if their ulterior motive is to inflict pain, they forget to think that maybe their motives will inflict the most pain on the group they are supposed to work for.
However, this might be just capitalism trying to capitalize on a cause. A clothing manufacturer was contracted to make these shirts, and they wanted to get the most money out of it, plain and simple.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lichtbringer on December 03, 2014, 09:41:57 pm
I think that could interest you guys. http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-12-03-target-australia-removes-gta-v-from-sale-following-petition
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DKDC on December 03, 2014, 10:02:00 pm
I think that could interest you guys. http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-12-03-target-australia-removes-gta-v-from-sale-following-petition
Quote
"This is the argument we hear every time violence against women is mentioned," she said, when asked about the game's predominantly male on male violence. "Even on White Ribbon Day, there are cries of 'But it happens to men, too'.
"In this case, the male gamers are saying they don't mind violence against themselves in this game. Implicit in this is the recognition that if men don't mind, then women have to put up with it. This is hardly a gender-neutral argument. Implicit in it is the very misogyny we are rallying against."
Nice. They're not fighting because they're discriminated against or victimized, no. They're fighting because they're treated the same as men, and they want to be treated better. Who cares if men get the shit beaten out of them, women should have it better.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on December 03, 2014, 10:15:01 pm
Many women have courageously spoken out about how they experience alienation and harassment in gaming. Despite this fact, too many male gamers still dismiss the issue as "no big deal" and insist that there isn’t really a problem. One of the luxuries of being a member of a privileged group is that the benefits afforded often remain invisible. This blindness allows many men, even well meaning men, to remain blissfully unaware of what roughly half of all gamers experience on a fairly regular basis. With that in mind the following is a checklist of some of the concrete benefits that male gamers automatically receive simply for being male gamers.
yay! feminist frequency is back! i salute to the Anita Sarkeesian and all feminists alike.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
this is the most fucking stupid pathetic piece of shit in the whole entire world and i wish for her to go to hell and suffer eternal rape by satan.
USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Lith on December 03, 2014, 10:19:16 pm
CALM DOWN THERE LITTLE BUDDY There's far worse things than that, refrain from saying that sort of stuff.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Umezono on December 03, 2014, 10:20:15 pm
toonar shut up man. dont post in these threads
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Duos on December 03, 2014, 11:01:18 pm
Many women have courageously spoken out about how they experience alienation and harassment in gaming. Despite this fact, too many male gamers still dismiss the issue as "no big deal" and insist that there isn’t really a problem. One of the luxuries of being a member of a privileged group is that the benefits afforded often remain invisible. This blindness allows many men, even well meaning men, to remain blissfully unaware of what roughly half of all gamers experience on a fairly regular basis. With that in mind the following is a checklist of some of the concrete benefits that male gamers automatically receive simply for being male gamers.
yay! feminist frequency is back! i salute to the Anita Sarkeesian and all feminists alike.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
this is the most fucking stupid pathetic piece of shit in the whole entire world and i wish for her to go to hell and suffer eternal rape by satan.
Statements like this sure do help prove people like her wrong!
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Toonar12X on December 03, 2014, 11:06:33 pm
see he gets it.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Duos on December 03, 2014, 11:07:37 pm
Yeah, I get that saying you hope she dies and gets raped because she said something you don't agree with does absolutely nothing but make her look right.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Titiln on December 03, 2014, 11:16:05 pm
you're a fucking dummy, toonar
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Iced on December 03, 2014, 11:18:24 pm
Yeah, I get that saying you hope she dies and gets raped because she said something you don't agree with does absolutely nothing but make her look right.
Many women have courageously spoken out about how they experience alienation and harassment in gaming. Despite this fact, too many male gamers still dismiss the issue as "no big deal" and insist that there isn’t really a problem. One of the luxuries of being a member of a privileged group is that the benefits afforded often remain invisible. This blindness allows many men, even well meaning men, to remain blissfully unaware of what roughly half of all gamers experience on a fairly regular basis. With that in mind the following is a checklist of some of the concrete benefits that male gamers automatically receive simply for being male gamers.
yay! feminist frequency is back! i salute to the Anita Sarkeesian and all feminists alike.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
this is the most fucking stupid pathetic piece of shit in the whole entire world and i wish for her to go to hell and suffer eternal rape by satan.
Dude seriously...quit it. I just want her out of the spotlight, that's it...
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: The Aboriginal One on December 04, 2014, 03:40:34 am
Anita Sarkeesian is a master of contradiction: in one video she has one stance on men on one subject, on the other video or the same video, it's the exact opposite only to prove a point about our misogynistic nature.
I can't really listen to a person who see two sides of the story as two halves of the same side of the coin. The question is how has she influenced our culture and whose ear does she have.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Ryūku Tsukuyomi on December 04, 2014, 06:43:27 am
Many women have courageously spoken out about how they experience alienation and harassment in gaming. Despite this fact, too many male gamers still dismiss the issue as "no big deal" and insist that there isn’t really a problem. One of the luxuries of being a member of a privileged group is that the benefits afforded often remain invisible. This blindness allows many men, even well meaning men, to remain blissfully unaware of what roughly half of all gamers experience on a fairly regular basis. With that in mind the following is a checklist of some of the concrete benefits that male gamers automatically receive simply for being male gamers.
yay! feminist frequency is back! i salute to the Anita Sarkeesian and all feminists alike.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
this is the most fucking stupid pathetic piece of shit in the whole entire world and i wish for her to go to hell and suffer eternal rape by satan.
USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST
I know you are a kid but that was really uncalled for.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Jesuszilla on December 05, 2014, 10:59:19 pm
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Rajaa on December 05, 2014, 11:59:31 pm
It's like she and other extremists like her just mindlessly and reflexively throw out all of those invented/transformed words from the feminist word-bank instead of providing anything actually worth a reaction that isn't laughter and mockery.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Dust Storm on December 09, 2014, 04:31:36 am
I like to draw a comparison between Anita Sarkeesian and Abigial Williams. If you don't get the comparison, watch The Crucible or look up the Salem Witch trials.
I wouldn't endorse responding to Anita with threats and violence. Just debunk what she says, call out her lies and hypocrisy, and spread awareness that what she's spouting is pure horseshit.
What she really deserves is to be looked down upon and scorned by true feminists for turning the feminism movement into a joke.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: DNZRX768 on December 09, 2014, 05:30:54 am
I wonder why people would risk their good name and reputation to defend this con-artist?
No one wants to be associated with a criminal willingly. So what is driving the media to defend her dishonest actions?
It can't be money nor prestige, since there is very little of both on the course they are going,
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Dust Storm on December 09, 2014, 05:47:03 am
Because they're afraid of Social Justice Warriors.
Title: Re: Feminist study of games
Post by: Flowrellik on December 17, 2014, 05:21:18 am
Whatever happened to just ignoring people. Who the hell is funding all these people for this feminazi crap? Look I can understand a Feminist to their points of view and SOME I can agree with, but there are more feminists that are causing more harm than good for this world. Seriously, seeing all this bullshit from a select few (coughanitacough) is just reminding me of past experiences as admin of a few sites and seeing flamewars happen: all talk and no walk.