The Mugen Fighters Guild

Off-Topic => All That's Left => Topic started by: Iced on August 14, 2014, 12:53:22 pm

Title: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 14, 2014, 12:53:22 pm
http://www.reddit.com/live/tdrph3y49ftn/

http://jezebel.com/ferguson-disgrace-police-fire-on-unarmed-crowds-attac-1621352164/+laceydonohue

A black unarmed teenager was shot dead by American police recently on saturday. Since then protests have been going on in the Fergurson town of Missouri.  With the police refusing to name the killer thus denying the eability of the family to make a formal accusation.

The police has now started attacking the crowds and arresting reporters, main tv channels are being turned away from the city.

This has been blowing up on the social networks but I havent seen major news sites covering it yet.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bea on August 14, 2014, 01:53:59 pm
And that even is completely fucked up. :|
It is hard to believe that a teen was shot dead by cops just because he was of colour. How broken is America society to allow this to happen? :|
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Killer Kong on August 14, 2014, 02:01:25 pm
This has been blowing up on the social networks but I havent seen major news sites covering it yet.
They're pretty much stopping major news outlets from doing this IIRC. Which shouldn't be allowed but hey!
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on August 14, 2014, 02:53:56 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/13/us/ferguson-missouri-town-under-siege-after-police-shooting.html?_r=0 said:
The town’s leadership and the police have remained predominantly white. Of 53 commissioned officers in the Ferguson Police Department, three are black. A racial profiling study shows that while blacks make up 63 percent of the city’s population, they account for 86 percent of traffic stops.

of course.

Blatant racial bias notwithstanding, doesn't excuse the vandalism and rioting.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Killer Kong on August 14, 2014, 02:59:00 pm
The real problem is the use of tear gas and...in some cases, SWAT stuff I think? Also the dismantling of media in the area. That's the real issue.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on August 14, 2014, 03:02:34 pm
This has been blowing up on the social networks but I havent seen major news sites covering it yet.


 NYTimes  (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/14/us/missouri-teenager-and-officer-scuffled-before-shooting-chief-says.html)


 Huffington Post  (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/ferguson-protests-police-response_n_5677741.html)

 CS Monitor  (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2014/0814/Police-in-Ferguson-Mo.-break-up-protests-with-tear-gas-again)

Wall Street Journal, CNN, USA Today, ABC, NBC, CBS,  all covering it for the last few days, but Robin Williams suicide kind of took the spotlight.

Quote

Chief Jackson said that the officer who shot Michael Brown, 18, on Saturday was struck in the face during the encounter and treated at a hospital. Touching his own cheek, the chief said that a side of the officer’s face was swollen from what the police have described as a struggle in which Mr. Brown assaulted the officer and tried to take his gun — an account disputed by a witness, a friend of Mr. Brown’s who said his hands were raised when the last of several shots was fired.

Anonymous, the loosely organized group of international hackers, said on Twitter that it had broken into Ferguson’s municipal computer system. It released details about city workers and posted photos of Jon Belmar, the chief of the St. Louis County police who is conducting the investigation into the shooting, as well as his wife, son and daughter. It also posted his address and phone number. The group threatened to bring down city, county and federal networks if the police overreacted to rallies and protests.
 

From the NY Times article

Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on August 14, 2014, 03:10:43 pm
The real problem is the use of tear gas and...in some cases, SWAT stuff I think? Also the dismantling of media in the area. That's the real issue.

Yeah, their the police force and their actions are bringing about all of this. I mean, don't blame the mass public for being outraged over it. But destroying the property of those unrelated isn't helping any and all that's doing is shifting focus from the real issue (shady police force/government).

edit: meant the cops when i said that, should've been more clear.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 14, 2014, 03:19:21 pm
This has been blowing up on the social networks but I havent seen major news sites covering it yet.


 NYTimes  (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/14/us/missouri-teenager-and-officer-scuffled-before-shooting-chief-says.html)


 Huffington Post  (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/ferguson-protests-police-response_n_5677741.html)

 CS Monitor  (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2014/0814/Police-in-Ferguson-Mo.-break-up-protests-with-tear-gas-again)

Wall Street Journal, CNN, USA Today, ABC, NBC, CBS,  all covering it for the last few days, but Robin Williams suicide kind of took the spotlight.

Im talking about the reporters being arrested and the recent confrontation with the protesters the case was being followed by the news as far as the killing went.


Yeah, their actions are bring about all of this. I mean, don't blame the mass public for being outraged over it. But destroying the property of those unrelated isn't helping any and all that's doing is shifting focus from the real issue (shady police force/government).


Theres really no justification possible to be arresting the reporters over "we want no witnesses" like the cops were stating. Those reporters managed to be released, how many citizens were arrested over "we want no witnesses" that wont get released?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Killer Kong on August 14, 2014, 03:34:26 pm
At this point vandalism is going to be ignored because the general public now sees the greater scope. That being the way Ferguson is trying to mask this up and detain the media lol.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 14, 2014, 03:39:07 pm
I could understand not divulging the name of the cop tha tkilled the guy as he is internally processed to avoid attacks on his family , but  this just looks like a coverup operation now.

http://time.com/3105035/ferguson-faa-no-fly-zone/

they started a no fly zone to avoid news copters to record what they are doing.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Killer Kong on August 14, 2014, 03:47:50 pm
I could understand not divulging the name of the cop tha tkilled the guy as he is internally processed to avoid attacks on his family , but  this just looks like a coverup operation now.

http://time.com/3105035/ferguson-faa-no-fly-zone/

they started a no fly zone to avoid news copters to record what they are doing.

"To provide a safe environment for law enforcement"

I can't believe this, this is looking more and more like...yeah.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on August 14, 2014, 03:48:41 pm
Anonymous to get involved with Ferguson incident -- already leaked personal information
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/14/anonymous-ferguson/ (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/14/anonymous-ferguson/)

Welp, here we go everybody. Internet's involved.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on August 14, 2014, 03:59:14 pm
Quote
"To provide a safe environment for law enforcement"
Yeah maybe to protect them from being exposed.

Anonymous to get involved with Ferguson incident -- already leaked personal information
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/14/anonymous-ferguson/ (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/14/anonymous-ferguson/)

Welp, here we go everybody. Internet's involved.
But you can't hide from everyone (thank you 21st century).
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MightyKombat on August 14, 2014, 04:01:34 pm
Did I miss something or did Ferguson turn into a fucking 3rd world dictatorship overnight?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 14, 2014, 04:08:01 pm
Quote
or a moment, let us consider the consequence. By releasing the personal information, the 911 call, by shutting down the internet, Anonymous has brought the Ferguson leadership something that they had lacked – fear. They were insulated from consequence, so they acted without concern. Now they are facing a very real consequence to their actions, one they were warned of, and one which they foolishly ignored. That phrase Anonymous uses, it is not just words on paper, a hollow motto. That is their creed, their lives breath.

    We Are Anonymous.
    We Are Legion.
    We do not Forgive.
    We do not Forget.
    Expect us.

The next step is obvious for the city government in Ferguson – release the name of the officer who killed Michael Brown and make it clear that he will be held accountable for his actions. Have Mike Brown’s Law drafted and posted on the internet. And let the city mourn for its dead in peace.

The actions of the Ferguson police department can not be tolerated in civil society. The police are public servants, not lords or soldiers. The demilitarization of the United States must begin.

huh.  Usually their methods dont really affect anything, but considering this is about information it turns out to be a effective method.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Orochi Gill on August 14, 2014, 04:24:00 pm
I was glad to not have to hear about anon anymore, personally
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on August 14, 2014, 04:25:36 pm
because of its nature "anonymous" will be around for a very very long time
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bea on August 14, 2014, 04:29:56 pm
http://www.businessinsider.com/police-fire-tear-gas-on-al-jazeera-america-tv-crew-and-then-take-their-equipment-2014-8

... :|
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 14, 2014, 04:31:07 pm
in a way they are a necessity of a internet based society, a wildcard element that people can use as an umbrella for activities governments would rather they were not having.

ofc this makes it so that anyone can claim to belong there, but to portray the groups under that name as being only about internet trolling is a disfavour considering their overall effect in some cases.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: R565 on August 14, 2014, 04:34:28 pm
I have a brother and family in Ferguson and they unfortunately got caught up between everything that been happening.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 14, 2014, 05:13:48 pm
Anonymous released the name of the killer after their demands were not met

now they are listing more demands.

    NEXT RELEASES IF @stlcountypd doesn't respond: 1) PHOTO 2) ADDRESS w/ PHOTO 3) FULL D0X #Anonymous #Ferguson
    — TheAnonMessage (@TheAnonMessage) August 14, 2014

    AT 10:00 AM CT - PHOTO WILL BE RELEASED. (If no response)
    — TheAnonMessage (@TheAnonMessage) August 14, 2014

    AT 12:00PM CT - Address will be released. (If no response)
    — TheAnonMessage (@TheAnonMessage) August 14, 2014

    At 2:00PM CT - FULL D0X will be released (if no response)
    — TheAnonMessage (@TheAnonMessage) August 14, 2014

    We have video of Mike Brown's body being shoved into the back of a PD SUV. No EMS was on the scene at all as we first thought. #Ferguson
    — TheAnonMessage (@TheAnonMessage) August 14, 2014

    WARNING: @stlcountypd by you staying silent, you confirm our name. We're waiting for a response.
    — TheAnonMessage (@TheAnonMessage) August 14, 2014
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on August 14, 2014, 06:16:45 pm
St. Louis County Police to Be Removed From Ferguson
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-14/st-louis-county-police-to-be-removed-from-ferguson-clay.html
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 14, 2014, 10:00:27 pm
This is absolutely despicable.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 14, 2014, 10:18:27 pm
It's pretty unexpected that the federals are stepping in and dismantling the police, isn't that a first, at least in a situation as hot as that ?

Well, they better. No way what happened doesn't fall under that law. It's just that they usually wait until shit dies down on its own.
||
V
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 14, 2014, 10:21:47 pm
they are probably gonna end up court martialing them.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: 【RTC】MelvanaInChains on August 14, 2014, 10:31:33 pm
if said cop's name was said to be 'michael white' then that's not actually his name, that was just a dumb play on words that wasted everyone's time apparently
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 14, 2014, 10:33:18 pm
No, his name was not said to be michael white, he was named photo spread and even his facebook account released.  he had been trying to purge the fact that he was a cop from social media.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: 【RTC】MelvanaInChains on August 14, 2014, 10:47:17 pm
...oh this must've been a breakthrough when i was asleep; i see 'scooby' now, thanks for the clarification
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 14, 2014, 11:11:44 pm
mike white and mike brown would be like a bad joke.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 15, 2014, 01:15:02 pm
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvCT1lrCUAEXe4W.jpg:large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvCsSlsIYAApM1n.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvDK7KzIQAEL55h.jpg:large)
The leader of the new police marching with the protesters.

the fucking difference a night makes,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/14/with-highway-patrol-hugs-and-kisses-replace-tear-gas-in-ferguson/
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: UrbaneVirtuoso on August 15, 2014, 02:13:09 pm
Damn, here's to the moment of amnesty.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Xhominid on August 16, 2014, 08:14:13 am
Reading all of this is just fucking horrifying...

I knew of the black kid getting shot by cops, I DID NOT know of the fact they have literally turned the place into a dictatorship overnight to act like what they have done is justice.

Seriously, do they not understand that they are supposed to protect and serve? Do they not realize that this doesn't just affect them, but affect all police officers in general? And this is why people are growing more and more distrustful of police officers by the day, because of this horrifying shit.

The Right to Bear Arms is sadly becoming even more of a necessity if this continues to happen again and again...
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: TempesT on August 16, 2014, 08:18:42 am
The right to bear arms has nothing to do with this unless people are willing to pull weapons on police and law officials.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 16, 2014, 08:19:30 am
Armed revolt sounds like a great idea, what have non-violent protests gotten anyone?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on August 16, 2014, 08:25:31 am
Actually, there was just a huge vigil in the downtown area that went rather well. Nobody got tear gassed.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Xhominid on August 16, 2014, 09:18:20 am
The right to bear arms has nothing to do with this unless people are willing to pull weapons on police and law officials.

Armed revolt sounds like a great idea, what have non-violent protests gotten anyone?

Thanks for not remembering what the point of what the amendment is for...

I'm not saying it should be a revolt or anything close to that(Hell, I thought it was obvious I was never condoning it as a main go to option at all), I'm saying that the option is sadly seeming more likely because of how this situation has completely spiraled out of control with massive abuse of power till now.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 16, 2014, 09:30:32 am
The situation has already gotten way, way better. And it's gotten better because of peaceful protests and the work of hundreds people dedicated to getting information out there. This is no time to be talking about how maybe we should shoot police officers one day in the future if things get worse, because there's a better path, one that actually works.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on August 16, 2014, 09:33:31 am
oh please explain the point of the second amendment for those not in the know
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Nucka on August 16, 2014, 10:20:54 am
It gives Americans the right to own and carry guns. It was basically put in place as a means to defend against being taken over by the British or the likes of.

Law enforcement is a little more tricky than it seems. It's as corrupt as any organisation but (like slavery) shit would go bananas if they would immediately change everything to people's liking.

This is an unfortunate but necessary incident in the advancement of society.

You guys gotta cut us Americans some slack. It's not easy leading an entire species into the future.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Legendary DeMoNk@I on August 16, 2014, 05:24:00 pm
They still will never learn will they?......Riot situations are always a ticking time bomb. i guess they dont remember what happened the last time with the Rodney king situation and others like that....Hopefully it doesnt come to that because those cities really got fucked up and burned down but police just keep breeding these assholes thinking a community of super pissed off people ready to riot cant happen....again
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Xhominid on August 16, 2014, 06:31:47 pm
The situation has already gotten way, way better. And it's gotten better because of peaceful protests and the work of hundreds people dedicated to getting information out there. This is no time to be talking about how maybe we should shoot police officers one day in the future if things get worse, because there's a better path, one that actually works.

Yes, keep missing the point that I just made in which I wasn't acting like it should be a matter of recourse, but what could easily happen if there's too much of an abuse of power by the police. I know the peaceful protest did it's job and then some, I'm saying that because this HAPPENED, that there will be people far more hostile to cops in general moreso than ever.

oh please explain the point of the second amendment for those not in the know

As Nucka stated, The 2nd Amendment was made with the intent in that if the government becomes too corrupt, we would have the means to overthrow the current government and start over. I also believe that this comes in mind for other government established things like the police as well.

I am not saying that it ever should be an option, but it can easily spiral out of control even with peaceful protests should things like this continue.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on August 16, 2014, 06:32:44 pm
the reason people miss your amazing point is because you do a fucking horrible job at conveying it
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on August 16, 2014, 06:41:55 pm
Generally speaking, civilians just want to live normal lives and be treated fairly. I doubt most people will feel more tempted to "lash at the police" just because of a spontaneous power trip.

If events of this magnitude occurred repetitively (that would be awful btw), hostility towards law enforcement would become more likely.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on August 16, 2014, 06:50:42 pm
I think a more reasonable case for the second amendment is to be able to protect yourself personally against corrupt cops.

If Mike Brown was actually armed he might have lasted long enough to be torn apart by the corrupt court system and spend his life rotting in a jail cell.


...Nope. Still a bad point.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 16, 2014, 07:10:10 pm
If he had been armed... what would have happened ? Would he have pulled his gun, or not ?
Option 1/ he pulls it, they shoot each other. Regardless of the result, the big title in medias would have been about Black people and gun violence and how the streets are not safe - not because of the cops, but because of gun violence. And Brown is either still dead or in a jail for killing a cop. Congratulation, you've achieved nothing !
Option 2/ he doesn't pull it, the cop shoots him anyway (he shot him when he didn't have a gun, don't think he wouldn't have shot if Brown had a gun), and the cop can now claim that Brown threatened him with his gun. Hey, he claimed the same when Brown was unarmed, why would it change ? The cop's claims would actually be more believable.

But yeah, you guys are totally right, put more guns in the streets to end gun violence.

The only point there would be in justifying guns is if it was already a known fact that the police was getting crazy, and that the citizens were already aware that their life was in danger, and they needed to defend themselves. That's what your second amendment was for, back when the citizens already knew that the British army was just out killing them.
But the thing is, if everyone knows that the police is getting insane and murderous, well, just look at what happened : the police got kicked out by the higher authority. This is all the proof you can need that your argument is actually bogus, because the problem you're claiming you're protecting yourself from, that problem already has a solution. It happened right here, just now.
So you're still achieving nothing at all.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Xhominid on August 16, 2014, 08:11:01 pm
If he had been armed... what would have happened ? Would he have pulled his gun, or not ?
Option 1/ he pulls it, they shoot each other. Regardless of the result, the big title in medias would have been about Black people and gun violence and how the streets are not safe - not because of the cops, but because of gun violence. And Brown is either still dead or in a jail for killing a cop. Congratulation, you've achieved nothing !
Option 2/ he doesn't pull it, the cop shoots him anyway (he shot him when he didn't have a gun, don't think he wouldn't have shot if Brown had a gun), and the cop can now claim that Brown threatened him with his gun. Hey, he claimed the same when Brown was unarmed, why would it change ? The cop's claims would actually be more believable.

But yeah, you guys are totally right, put more guns in the streets to end gun violence.

The only point there would be in justifying guns is if it was already a known fact that the police was getting crazy, and that the citizens were already aware that their life was in danger, and they needed to defend themselves. That's what your second amendment was for, back when the citizens already knew that the British army was just out killing them.
But the thing is, if everyone knows that the police is getting insane and murderous, well, just look at what happened : the police got kicked out by the higher authority. This is all the proof you can need that your argument is actually bogus, because the problem you're claiming you're protecting yourself from, that problem already has a solution. It happened right here, just now.
So you're still achieving nothing at all.

For the last time, I'm not some NRA nut that wants guns on the street nor saying he should have had a gun or any sort of that nonsense. Please, actually read what I said completely and not put words in my mouth.

I am saying, word for word, that something like this(which is NOT the first time this happened) that continues to happen only SPURS that people may see the government as corrupt and only helps their cause, whether or not the government stepped in and dismantled the whole force be damned.

People will be arguing why did it happen to BEGIN WITH. Why is there no preventive measures, so on and so forth. The heavy abuse of power will only spur those who already have issues into even bigger issues and could easily lead to bigger problems.

I have never advocated people getting guns just to shoot up cops or anything on that level, I'm saying incidents like this can easily CAUSE those situations to spiral and become exactly what I said could happen.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Mgbenz on August 16, 2014, 08:28:25 pm
The idea of making preventive measures against your own town's police just boggles me.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Xhominid on August 16, 2014, 08:43:52 pm
The idea of making preventive measures against your own town's police just boggles me.

When the forces that are supposed to protect you are doing shit like this, it sadly starts becoming more of a necessary precaution than it ever should be.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Mami on August 16, 2014, 08:46:37 pm
The idea of making preventive measures against your own town's police just boggles me.
you don't live in mexico, do you?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 16, 2014, 08:49:23 pm
Oh, so you're not advocating guns and NRA stuff, but "sadly it becomes a necessity" ? Yeah, it's everyone's fault for missing your point, sure, it's not your fault.

It's not a necessity. Even when shit goes so far south like that, it still gets resolved like it just did, without any necessity like the one you say.

By the way, my previous post was not targeted at you.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Mgbenz on August 16, 2014, 08:55:40 pm
The idea of making preventive measures against your own town's police just boggles me.
you don't live in mexico, do you?


Fortunately yes. I'm aware of Mexico's government.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on August 16, 2014, 09:08:47 pm
By the way, my previous post was not targeted at you.

Well I surely hope it wasn't directed at me, I was being sarcastic.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 16, 2014, 09:09:56 pm
While the Second Amendment is often interpreted as being a measure to ensure citizens could overthrow the government if it became too corrupt, an equally valid interpretation exists that states that the amendment is in fact about establishing the equivalent of an army: instead of a centralized army there would be instead loosely connected militias dedicated towards national defense. There was a lot of indecision about what shape the American government would take in the early days, as the Federalists and the anti-Federalists struggled to hash out a workable system of governance. The anti-Federalists were wary of a strong central government and thus disinclined to want a national army; small militias could've been a compromise between the two sides.

Of course, even if the first interpretation was taken as true, it doesn't have a lot of use in the modern day. The only way an armed revolt of citizens could overthrow the government today was if almost the entire population rose up; modern military technology is simply too advanced. It's not like the founders envisioned people with hunting rifles facing off with jets, or something.

Yes, keep missing the point that I just made in which I wasn't acting like it should be a matter of recourse, but what could easily happen if there's too much of an abuse of power by the police. I know the peaceful protest did it's job and then some, I'm saying that because this HAPPENED, that there will be people far more hostile to cops in general moreso than ever.
Were you, now? Because you're doing an extraordinarily shitty job at communicating that:

The Right to Bear Arms is sadly becoming even more of a necessity if this continues to happen again and again...
When the forces that are supposed to protect you are doing shit like this, it sadly starts becoming more of a necessary precaution than it ever should be.

Of course, it's besides the point, because both your original position and the one you're backtracking to are both completely absurd and disconnected from reality. Incidents like this aren't liable in any way to spur the population towards armed revolt. It's going to take a lot more than incidents like this to lead to that.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 16, 2014, 09:12:58 pm
Well I surely hope it wasn't directed at me, I was being sarcastic.
It was a general statement in response to the subject of the discussion at the moment. That's why I was speaking generally without quoting or naming anyone, and using plural. I don't target anyone unless I'm specifically and explicitly targeting someone.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DesiDesai40 on August 16, 2014, 09:21:33 pm
What kills me is the difference between the reaction to Cliven Bundy and this. Racism is just too obvious to you when you're black and it's almost crazy.

Unfortunately, we're in a bad place and violence would be the answer, but it would amount to suicide. If only the people in the military would encourage true justice and move against our "system;" a system which pays them less than minimum wage for their man hours. Let's be real: Amadou Diallo didn't change anything, Trayvon didn't change anything, Sean Bell didn't change anything, and Michael's murder won't change anything. Being black is just something else; it's almost like Europeans are just naturally inclined to look at you as something sub-human and that's the way it is.

And let's not distort history because peaceful protests did tidbits. Now that most people literally "believe" that all people are "relatively" free, things will remain completely static. It hurts.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 16, 2014, 09:26:07 pm
Who the fuck is Cliven Buncy
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Speedpreacher on August 16, 2014, 09:30:20 pm
Yeah you tell 'em Malcolm, fear of a black planet
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: 【RTC】MelvanaInChains on August 16, 2014, 09:34:24 pm
MEANWHILE

* police have re-militarized and are back with going insane with tear gas. again. despite statements made that their involvement would be removed
* the one cop who ALMOST had things under control for a day seems to now be missing from what i'm gathering, where the hell did he go?
* looters are back, protesters are joining together and keeping them out; revealed that looters are mostly drunkards
* the main cop in question is apparently darren wilson (http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/darren-wilson-identified-as-ferguson-police-officer-who-fatally-shot-michael-brown-1.9067980)

probably missed some things since the developments are whizzing by really fast, but that seems to be the gist of what's going on atm
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 16, 2014, 09:38:39 pm
Who the fuck is Cliven Buncy
He's a racist piece of shit whose cattle were grazing on protected federal land (protecting an endangered species of tortoise) for two decades and recently, literally gathered an armed militia to try and fight off government agents who wanted to impound his cattle. (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/us/politics/rancher-proudly-breaks-the-law-becoming-a-hero-in-the-west.html)

Naturally, you had conservatives across the country praising the shit out of this brave man's stand for state rights... until he had some interesting words about black people:
Quote
“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”
Suddenly no one wanted to talk about him! What gives?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 16, 2014, 09:40:24 pm
I was reading just now that the police released a statement that Brown was suspected in a robbery (just for about $50 worth of cigars) that happened 20 minutes before the shooting. The police did specify that the shooting was not connected, since the policeman had no way of knowing about it (meaning that the shooting was still considered unlawful and all), but Brown's family got enraged, saying that the police was trying to shift the blame on the shooting victim. And then the riots resumed.

edit - ... so yeah, pretty much the same thing was what Melv's link says.

Okay, that's pretty funny.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 16, 2014, 09:44:10 pm
And let's not distort history because peaceful protests did tidbits. Now that most people literally "believe" that all people are "relatively" free, things will remain completely static. It hurts.
I disagree entirely. Things will never stay static; the fight will always continue. It only looks like things are static because we've come so, so far, but we still have a long road ahead!
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on August 16, 2014, 09:50:12 pm
Trayvon didn't change anything
because zimmerman was not guilty
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DesiDesai40 on August 16, 2014, 09:53:00 pm
I don't know Jmorph. Concern with us and "for" us just doesn't seem to be there. With racism so much less "glaring" than it was in the past, I don't think it will inspire or galvanize non-blacks enough to actually do something. For decades we've complained about a system which essentially keeps us poor, literally starves most of us, gives us no ways out, provides lackluster education throughout our areas, then throws many of us in jail with no recourse other than to steal to survive or assure that our children survive in many cases. Of course black-on-black crime tends to be the heaviest so I have to back track from that statement.

Personally I don't think its in anyone's personal interest to defend us, really. That requires time and monetary investments, at known losses, that most people just don't have, especially while the population grows and competition for resources thickens. In my mind the inner cities will remain our homes and people will be able to do with us as they like.

By the way, had no clue you were (likely) black. Are you?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 16, 2014, 09:57:59 pm
I dunno, protests like these still give me hope. The problems that are left are all insidious and systematic, hard to easily get a grip on for sure, but I still believe things will turn around, eventually.

By the way, had no clue you were (likely) black. Are you?
nope, I mean like, the collective we, the entire human race! And from personal experience; as a gay dude, I definitely have felt things improving.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DesiDesai40 on August 16, 2014, 10:01:01 pm
By the way, had no clue you were (likely) black. Are you?
nope, I mean like, the collective we, the entire human race! And from personal experience; as a gay dude, I definitely have felt things improving.
I see. Well you would feel things changing, no? Entire laws have been enacted which legalize practices formerly denied to gays. Thank goodness mentalities are changing too.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DJ_HANNIBALROYCE on August 16, 2014, 10:03:34 pm
yea....gay rights have really come a long way. its good to see us finally get some kind of respect...we are all the same at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Xhominid on August 17, 2014, 02:44:25 am
Oh, so you're not advocating guns and NRA stuff, but "sadly it becomes a necessity" ? Yeah, it's everyone's fault for missing your point, sure, it's not your fault.

It's not a necessity. Even when shit goes so far south like that, it still gets resolved like it just did, without any necessity like the one you say.

By the way, my previous post was not targeted at you.

1. Your first post kinda came off that way, I apologize.

2. Alright, let me finally get this shit under wraps:
I'm not saying that we should be ready and take down the government or whatever nonsense that you guys would stretch from my posts, but I'm saying the possibility should neverbe tossed off the table, I am NOT against peaceful protests if they help the situation(lord knows how many times I've gotten that drilled into my head in life), but if shit truly does go south, then it SHOULD be an option, a last resort.

I'm mainly saying the police should really never have this level of power to begin with. National Guard? CIA? Sure. Normal Police Force? Why would they have all the stuff that happened in Ferguson for? And to abuse it as hugely as they did for the complete dismantling of the force to even be a thing?

While the Second Amendment is often interpreted as being a measure to ensure citizens could overthrow the government if it became too corrupt, an equally valid interpretation exists that states that the amendment is in fact about establishing the equivalent of an army: instead of a centralized army there would be instead loosely connected militias dedicated towards national defense. There was a lot of indecision about what shape the American government would take in the early days, as the Federalists and the anti-Federalists struggled to hash out a workable system of governance. The anti-Federalists were wary of a strong central government and thus disinclined to want a national army; small militias could've been a compromise between the two sides.

Of course, even if the first interpretation was taken as true, it doesn't have a lot of use in the modern day. The only way an armed revolt of citizens could overthrow the government today was if almost the entire population rose up; modern military technology is simply too advanced. It's not like the founders envisioned people with hunting rifles facing off with jets, or something.
Of course we as civilians are screwed considering how powerful the military is, doesn't stop the fact of actually TRYING to overthrow the government if it gets too corrupt anything less than exercising the rights we have been given since the nation's birth.


Quote
Were you, now? Because you're doing an extraordinarily shitty job at communicating that:
Again, you took those quotes out of context. The first one was ONLY if the situation at Ferguson was repeated again and again(NOT the shooting of the person in question, but how the police handled it). The second is pretty much the same as the first. My fuck ups can easily be attributed to the fact that in certain cases I just can't get my point across.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 17, 2014, 02:47:46 am
We can effect change in the government much more effectively than armed revolt, even if it became absurdly corrupt.

Again, you took those quotes out of context. The first one was ONLY if the situation at Ferguson was repeated again and again(NOT the shooting of the person in question, but how the police handled it). The second is pretty much the same as the first. My fuck ups can easily be attributed to the fact that in certain cases I just can't get my point across.
C'mon. Nothing in your first post says anything like what you're describing now, and that other post was quoted in full.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 17, 2014, 03:26:51 am
I'm not saying that we should be ready and take down the government or whatever nonsense that you guys would stretch from my posts, but I'm saying the possibility should neverbe tossed off the table, I am NOT against peaceful protests if they help the situation(lord knows how many times I've gotten that drilled into my head in life), but if shit truly does go south, then it SHOULD be an option, a last resort.

I'm mainly saying the police should really never have this level of power to begin with. National Guard? CIA? Sure. Normal Police Force? Why would they have all the stuff that happened in Ferguson for? And to abuse it as hugely as they did for the complete dismantling of the force to even be a thing?
All of this is kind of self-contradictory, or at least, self-excusive.

If people in charge manage to figure out that the police having this kind of equipment was crazy in the first place, and if someone can make sure that it doesn't happen again, then there's no reason to even discuss armed self-defense against power-crazed police. Because peaceful protest will only be the only logical reaction.

If the police generally manages somehow to keep this kind of army arsenal, and does end up power-crazed tyrants like that again, then the idea of armed self-defense is a joke and doesn't stand a chance. Unless we start going guerilla warfare and act like everywhere is Mexico.

There are only two possibilities here. And one way or the other, armed self-defense is a laughable response.

Not to mention that if things did go so bad that armed self-defense were to become a matter of survival of the citizens, then it sure as hell won't be an issue whether the law allows it or not. Such a dictatorship-oriented situation would remove or trample any such law allowing it anyway, and people who need that to survive wouldn't care if the law allows them to do that or not.

This entire discussion is null and irrelevant. If people need to survive, they'll do what they have to, and if they aren't in immediate danger, then it's not even on the table.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 17, 2014, 10:54:37 am
The KKK is raising money for the cop who shot Brown. (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/14/kkk-raising-money-for-hero-ferguson-cop-who-shot-jewish-controlled-black-thug/)

welp
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: UrbaneVirtuoso on August 17, 2014, 11:01:52 am
Amnesty wept.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on August 17, 2014, 05:00:24 pm
We can effect change in the government much more effectively than armed revolt, even if it became absurdly corrupt.

This is the subject of an upcoming seminar that I suspect was just thrown together this past week.   One of the topics of discussion will be underlying issues, in particular "how did a white administration get elected in an area that's over 70% minority".  And that will probably lead to why there is a mostly white police force. 

I'm starting to feel my sympathies move away from the protesters when I read about continued looting and destruction of private property. 
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on August 17, 2014, 05:14:19 pm
Oh, please do remember that protesters and looters are completely different.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Lord Kain on August 17, 2014, 06:22:49 pm
Looting during a massive protest will always happen no matter what color, black, asian, hispanic or even a large white protest, people will loot or cause violence, its not the main objective but shit eventually happens everytime
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 17, 2014, 06:27:49 pm
Careful, if you declare that looting and violence will happen regardless of the intentions of the protesters, then it's a good excuse to start rejecting any protest. Because hey, even if the protesters are nice people, looting will happen no matter what.
Instead, you should push for security during protests and prevention of looting. That would be... the job of the police - to hit on looters, and not hit on protesters - to protect the protesters.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Lord Kain on August 17, 2014, 07:01:52 pm
Hmmm.... you think that raging protesters that are protesting against the police will feel protected by them? On the other hand a thug's mind on this case as an excuse will be "fuck the police i dont trust them so ill tare the city apart because they shot one of ours for no reason"... unfortunatelly trough history this is what a police officer sees or thinks about an african american during this kind of events in this country, for most of them they are not "good people" other than delinquents saddly... a racial issue that has been passed trough decades...
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 17, 2014, 07:14:21 pm
Quote
unfortunatelly trough history this is what a police officer sees or thinks about an african american during this kind of events in this country, for most of them they are not "good people" other than delinquents saddly... a racial issue that has been passed trough decades...

Im not sure you know any black people.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Lord Kain on August 17, 2014, 07:20:39 pm
Yes I do actually quite a few, and that is why Im saying this, sure not all cops think this way but most of them do, and this is a Southern State... so a bit more complicated for them
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on August 17, 2014, 07:26:46 pm
Hmmm.... you think that raging protesters that are protesting against the police will feel protected by them?
no, but the people and places surrounding the protest should feel protected against looters that are amongst the protesters
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on August 17, 2014, 08:01:11 pm
^ that.

Quote
Just before midnight, some in what had been a large and rowdy but mostly well-behaved crowd broke into that same small store, and began looting it, according to Missouri State Highway Patrol Capt. Ron Johnson. Some in the crowd began throwing rocks and other objects at police, Johnson said. One officer was hurt, but details on the injury were not immediately available. Johnson added that police backed off to try and ease the tension. He believes looting may have spread to a couple of nearby stores. No arrests were made.

  source  (http://mashable.com/2014/08/16/police-protesters-ferguson/)

If I am a small business owner that has invested/risked my resources and time and I'm robbed, bullied, assaulted (allegedly) and a few nights later police allow "protesters" to loot and burn my business, I'd be furious.  Where's MY protection.  You can march and chant and wave signs all you want but the minute you break the law, you are a criminal. If you destroy my property, you are violating my rights.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Lord Kain on August 17, 2014, 08:31:28 pm
I can easily exchange all that, with a cop insted of a thug, a cop can destroy your property sometimes for no reason, can violate your rights, bully you, and sometimes loot you during a warrant search, so this and other tons of  things this guys get away with, so lets call the criminal to protect me from the other criminal
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on August 17, 2014, 08:32:42 pm
i don't know what point you're trying to make right now. we're talking about what's expected from law enforcement
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Lord Kain on August 17, 2014, 08:41:50 pm
Yes we always expect protection from the law enforcement but lets not also forget the illegal actions this guys commit sometimes, we all feel protected by them but at the same time unprotected, some people just dont trust them thats my point
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 17, 2014, 08:49:41 pm
You're going all over the place and keep changing the subject whenever someone asks you for clarification or points out an issue in what you're saying. You're not making any sense, it's like you're just saying some random thing that's on your mind at the time without caring for the discussion that's actually going on.
Stop trying.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on August 17, 2014, 08:51:18 pm
^ epic this
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Lord Kain on August 17, 2014, 09:16:15 pm
Sorry if i did misslead the thread tittle, Im aware of what the main discussion is just though i could add an opinion of what I think of the Police in general since its also a thread that mentions them as well and yes it was a random opinion on my end, my bad and get on with the main subject.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: 【RTC】MelvanaInChains on August 18, 2014, 12:40:04 am
yeah how about we stick with the main subject for the rest of this thread

such as

in an event i don't think any of us expected, buddhist monks from tibet and india have joined the protest (https://twitter.com/TheEyeOfControl/status/501114222756253697)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Toonar12X on August 18, 2014, 01:01:54 am
yeah how about we stick with the main subject for the rest of this thread

such as

in an event i don't think any of us expected, buddhist monks from tibet and india have joined the protest (https://twitter.com/TheEyeOfControl/status/501114222756253697)

could these people try to be any more subtle?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 18, 2014, 01:05:50 am
:gonk: what the fuck are you talking about
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Toonar12X on August 18, 2014, 01:08:56 am
making use of clever methods and direct methods to achieve something
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on August 18, 2014, 01:11:01 am
what
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: 【RTC】MelvanaInChains on August 18, 2014, 01:11:44 am
yeah quit while you're ahead there, get attention somewhere else, aight?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Toonar12X on August 18, 2014, 01:25:05 am
sorry guys forget what I just said...

I got another one for ya...

Federal autopsy ordered for teen shot by police in Ferguson, Missouri
article: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/17/us-usa-missouri-shooting-idUSKBN0GF0LP20140817 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/17/us-usa-missouri-shooting-idUSKBN0GF0LP20140817)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Nucka on August 18, 2014, 01:35:28 am
With racism so much less "glaring" than it was in the past, I don't think it will inspire or galvanize non-blacks enough to actually do something.

Personally I don't think its in anyone's personal interest to defend us, really.
You have a very pessimistic and unrealistic outlook.
We are animals for sure, and racism (aka the fear of something different) is a necessary evolutionary device. But we also have a very special intelligence that gives us a say in our progress. Do you not think it really works like that, that we'll forever be a bunch of dumb animals?

Things might not be as glaring as slavery or hosing people down in the streets but when an 85 year old white billionaire gets caught saying some mildly racist shit and everybody starts jumping up and down like crazy...it makes me think that we still got a pretty good focus on the wrongs of racism. Wrong is wrong, and intelligence will always side with right regardless of the emotionally driven detours along the way.   

We have the power to refine ourselves as a species.....and that's evolution and it's a mystery.



Also, you shouldn't use "personally" and "personal" in the same sentence.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DesiDesai40 on August 18, 2014, 04:10:29 am
You have a very pessimistic and unrealistic outlook.
I should have stopped right there. Hearing people like you, who have no clue what they're talking about, makes me cringe. No offense. I needed to say it.
We are animals for sure, and racism (aka the fear of something different) is a necessary evolutionary device.
That makes - no sense. Do you really expect me to defer to that? I hope that no one accepts this sentence because it's absolutely absurd.
But we also have a very special intelligence that gives us a say in our progress. Do you not think it really works like that, that we'll forever be a bunch of dumb animals?
Things might not be as glaring as slavery or hosing people down in the streets but when an 85 year old white billionaire gets caught saying some mildly racist shit and everybody starts jumping up and down like crazy...it makes me think that we still got a pretty good focus on the wrongs of racism. Wrong is wrong, and intelligence will always side with right regardless of the emotionally driven detours along the way.   
We have the power to refine ourselves as a species.....and that's evolution and it's a mystery.
This part of your post I can actually respond to. The reason why I am so pessimistic is because of revelations highlighted by videos like these:
Bike Thief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qMK-JSXawM
Vandalism: (Part 1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cCQU0jt4cs
(Part 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLXCCcqnY-I
The people in these videos wouldn't deem themselves racists, and likely believe they are egalitarians, but unfortunately cannot recognize their racism because it has been indirectly normalized to them. Anyone can talk about progress, but when you're trying to tackle an issue that runs as deeply as the sub-conscious, you have an issue that's virtually insurmountable. Blacks and whites tend to occupy different neighborhoods and if you can't recognize this sad stratification between our two groups "in particular," and the huge problem it creates, you're simply ignorant. Merging the environments would be the answer and that will not happen because that is truly not in the interest of many to promote.
Also, you shouldn't use "personally" and "personal" in the same sentence.
I had to; I should have put a comma after personally, though. In my original post "personal" was absent. I added personal because I acknowledge that there are members of other races who recognize what regularly happens and would love to help, but helping would ultimately work to their detriment monetarily or otherwise.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on August 18, 2014, 05:16:27 am
dangit get the quote thingies right.  I thought you were arguing with yourself.

:bow:
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Nucka on August 18, 2014, 07:09:31 am
I should have stopped right there. Hearing people like you, who have no clue what they're talking about, makes me cringe. No offense. I needed to say it.
I'm not saying the attitude isn't understandable. It's just not an attitude of advancement, but you don't believe in that anyway. And I'll throw in the classic "you don't know who I am or where I came from". And I don't know you either. But I wouldnt've replied to this if I didn't have the life experience to warrant it.

That makes - no sense. Do you really expect me to defer to that? I hope that no one accepts this sentence because it's absolutely absurd.
It was a completely valid statement. You kinda echoed it at the end of your post.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
From an evolutionary perspective, if things are working and survival is solid, anything different is a threat because it presents uncertainty.
You're saying that there's no hope and we're stuck. But unless we kill ourselves off, eventually racial differences will no longer register as a threat. It's not gonna happen to everyone at once and it's not gonna completely weed itself out for a long time but it's gonna happen....unless some major world altering event occurs to completely fuck us up and send us back 150 years.

This part of your post I can actually respond to. The reason why I am so pessimistic is because of revelations highlighted by videos like these:
Bike Thief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qMK-JSXawM
Vandalism: (Part 1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cCQU0jt4cs
(Part 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLXCCcqnY-I
The people in these videos wouldn't deem themselves racists, and likely believe they are egalitarians, but unfortunately cannot recognize their racism because it has been indirectly normalized to them. Anyone can talk about progress, but when you're trying to tackle an issue that runs as deeply as the sub-conscious, you have an issue that's virtually insurmountable. Blacks and whites tend to occupy different neighborhoods and if you can't recognize this sad stratification between our two groups "in particular," and the huge problem it creates, you're simply ignorant. Merging the environments would be the answer and that will not happen because that is truly not in the interest of many to promote.
20/20 used to be a good show like 20/20 years ago. I think my previous comments cover this.

I had to; I should have put a comma after personally, though. In my original post "personal" was absent. I added personal because I acknowledge that there are members of other races who recognize what regularly happens and would love to help, but helping would ultimately work to their detriment monetarily or otherwise.
It's not wrong. It just doesn't sound good. You could replace "personal interest" with "vested interest". Read it out-loud, it feels better.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Cyanide on August 18, 2014, 09:24:08 am
Racism will mostly be gone in i would say... 60 years, when most of the people who were somewhat involved in actively pursuing it, even covertly like giving jobs to a white over a black, will be dead.

The places it's harder to stamp out are those where it's actively taught. That process is far slower, because these people are fucking dumb in the first place. The only way that aspect breaks is when one of the children being taught has something happen that shows them their parents were wrong and they have no way to deny it. This happens on both sides, on the white side it's about power, on the black it's about resentment. Still taught, still an issue, won't vanish as fast as the mainstream version, despite being less covert.

The actions in missouri are the covert ones, but with social media now it becomes WAY harder to hide that sort of thing as there are almost always people carrying a camera with them now. 20 years ago the cops would have utterly gotten away with it. Now, not a chance, something is going to happen.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DesiDesai40 on August 18, 2014, 11:13:17 am
Racism will mostly be gone in i would say... 60 years, when most of the people who were somewhat involved in actively pursuing it, even covertly like giving jobs to a white over a black, will be dead.
The following provides the context for my opinion. I apologize for its length, but it is very important.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
The places it's harder to stamp out are those where it's actively taught. That process is far slower, because these people are fucking dumb in the first place. The only way that aspect breaks is when one of the children being taught has something happen that shows them their parents were wrong and they have no way to deny it. This happens on both sides, on the white side it's about power, on the black it's about resentment. Still taught, still an issue, won't vanish as fast as the mainstream version, despite being less covert.
Good point.
The actions in missouri are the covert ones, but with social media now it becomes WAY harder to hide that sort of thing as there are almost always people carrying a camera with them now. 20 years ago the cops would have utterly gotten away with it. Now, not a chance, something is going to happen.
Social media is no remedy. Amadou Diallo, Trayvon, Sean Bell, Jordan Davis, were all covered in similar fashions and eventually things died down and the status quo resumed. "They" have the backing of [militarized] police and can keep blacks at bay in any way they wish. If you've heard of the Danziger Bridge Shootings, you definitely understand why I am so pessimistic. Nothing gets done because it's not in their -majority's- interest to truly do something.
I'm not saying the attitude isn't understandable. It's just not an attitude of advancement, but you don't believe in that anyway. And I'll throw in the classic "you don't know who I am or where I came from". And I don't know you either. But I wouldnt've replied to this if I didn't have the life experience to warrant it.
You can talk about isolated experiences you've had, but when you're talking about the majority of people and the "observable" realities of the situations we're dealing with, I can only label you and most others naively hopeful. And my life experiences along with those of "most" other blacks raised across the spectrum would likely, by and large, contradict the positive ones you've been through.

That makes - no sense. Do you really expect me to defer to that? I hope that no one accepts this sentence because it's absolutely absurd.
It was a completely valid statement. You kinda echoed it at the end of your post.
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
Please do not stretch the meaning nor context of my words to fit a false paradigm.
Your quote
We are animals for sure, and racism (aka the fear of something different) is a necessary evolutionary device.
is wrong. First of all, racism is not automatically equated to "fear" and is actually more of a predisposition to view and treat someone negatively which can can stem from something as simple as the way they look. Some people treat others they deem "ugly" with contempt not out of fear, but because they're not physically attracted to them. Some people treat gays with contempt, not because of fear, but because they find their actions abominable. This is not about fear in the context of 'deer running from whatever 'else' approaches them,' this is about a predisposition that causes them to treat us in a particular manner.
From an evolutionary perspective, if things are working and survival is solid, anything different is a threat because it presents uncertainty.
You're saying that there's no hope and we're stuck. But unless we kill ourselves off, eventually racial differences will no longer register as a threat. It's not gonna happen to everyone at once and it's not gonna completely weed itself out for a long time but it's gonna happen....unless some major world altering event occurs to completely fuck us up and send us back 150 years.
Where are you getting this stuff? Besides how wrong you are to bring this discussion down to "fear" and "a threat,"  where did I ever say that the remedy would be [for human or just blacks] to thoroughly kill ourselves off? I 'did' say of blacks that fighting back would be the only answer, but that would ultimately get us all killed and that's obviously counter-intuitive.
If you misunderstood what I meant by "things going south," I mean that some force takes away the power of many more well-off whites to separate themselves from the black community (especially by militarized means) that forces us to unite. If that source doesn't take away that militarized power then events like Danziger will simply happen all over again because they can pay to have the more violent segments of their populace caqrry out violence to move us away. Notice that gentrification still happens with impunity too.
20/20 used to be a good show like 20/20 years ago. I think my previous comments cover this.
They didn't because you completely missed my point and likely will again. I don't mean to be confrontational, but you're frustrating me.
It's not wrong. It just doesn't sound good. You could replace "personal interest" with "vested interest". Read it out-loud, it feels better.
You are correct, sir.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 18, 2014, 11:22:45 am
Did things change immediately after Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King etc. ? No. Is society the same as what it was just before these guys ? Of course not.
What's the conclusion from only that ? The conclusion is that it takes time, but it does work.

You say there was coverage, but then it died down. I say people saw it, and the kids who saw it will make things happen when they grow up. Don't just look at those incidents you list and say "well, things didn't change overnight after them, so it won't change ever". That's just false, history already proved that to be wrong. It will change. That's just how it works.

By the way, you have to be a part of it yourself too. Come out of your closet, tell your friends that you're Black too, and yet they don't feel unsafe with you (hopefully). Then tell them that the difference isn't the color of your skin, but that those they're afraid of are poor. And the obvious solution is to make them not poor, maybe then your friends won't be afraid of them.
Also, your own comments about Europeans vs Blacks (including white Americans in the Europeans) is also pretty racist. If they're not Black, then they're not Americans but Europeans ?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bad News GBK on August 18, 2014, 11:26:37 am
I can not really add anything to the conversation and did not look up the whole thread here, just wanted to mention that the case got some big headlines here in Germany in printed newspapers and the biggest news websites. There was also a quite interesting article here about the differences between racism 60 and 30 years ago and today, the article came to the sad conclusion that the skin tone is still responsible for a lot shit happening, there in the USA and elsewhere too.
In other news, the heaven is still grey, but it sucks that many humans still think like ages ago and other humans have to suffer the negative results of this kind of thinking.

Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Cyanide on August 18, 2014, 11:32:40 am
It may have died down each time, but it also gets BIGGER each time. Look at this one in comparison to trayvon. You had people rioting in the streets over this (not the best thing to do but it happened) and the police escalated in an unjustifiable manner. This time round, something at a higher level will happen than last time. The whole police dept being stood down is a start, that certainly wouldn't have happened even 10 years ago.

The younger generation is going to change things. But the older generation still has their hands on the reins (look at the ages of all your people in senate, yeesh) and young people don't get much of a look in. Heck, america doesn't even seem to like voting for young guys to be president, Obama was some kind of a fluke.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 18, 2014, 04:16:41 pm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/michael-brown-shooting-amnesty-international-sends-team-within-us-for-first-time-as-national-guard-deployed-9675149.html
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 18, 2014, 04:48:14 pm
Quote
Confrontation flared up after an autopsy found that Michael Brown, an unarmed teenager who was fatally shot by an officer on 9 August, had suffered at six bullet wounds including one in the top of his head.

Eye-witnesses report seeing police, with no visible ID badges, hurling tear gas and rubber bullets at protesters and threatening members of the press in another night of demonstrations.
... Okay, two things.

Why are they getting pissed again at the autopsy report ? We know he was shot, more than once, and we already had the police chief say the case would be resolved and everything and place accountability where due. It's a federal autopsy, and it was apparently made public, that's supposed to be a good thing. So why are the riots resuming over the result ?

How the fuck is it that the new police guys are threatening the press and shooting tear gas around again ? Didn't the previous guys get kicked out for doing the same ?

Quote
Officers say they were responding to gunfire, looting, vandalism and the hurling of Molotov cocktails at them, with at least two people wounded.

"Based on the conditions, I had no alternative but to elevate the level of response," said Captain Ron Johnson, from the Missouri Highway Patrol.
Oh really, did the press do that too ?

What the fuck is going on over there, who pissed in the water the whole town is drinking from ?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 18, 2014, 04:57:07 pm
The "new cops" were mostly the old cops but under new management, i guess they thought they wouldnt do anything stupid under new management? Now the actual national guard is coming.

From reports it also seems that several people come from out of state to riot with guns , maybe they would have rioted anyway no matter what happened.

Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 18, 2014, 04:59:46 pm
The "new cops" were mostly the old cops but under new management
.... Oh that's just genius. After some governor or other put on an act of removing the police force that was being racist and power crazy, they actually didn't do anything. Nice waste of time and image.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on August 19, 2014, 01:07:36 pm
Did I miss something or did Ferguson turn into a fucking 3rd world dictatorship overnight?

And here I thought this was hyperbole, shows what I know.

Shit's still going down even after a week and some change, with no end in sight. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/police-fire-tear-gas-protesters-ferguson-missouri/story?id=25032050) Two men were shot, 31 arrested, tear gas used (again) and hit journalists in the scene. Also:

https://twitter.com/iamsakuma/statuses/501595928231698432 said:
Car driver offered to give a ride home to remaining protesters. Police stopped the car, guns drawn

See, now there's a legit reason to say "you're losing faith in humanity." I only pray things get better soon.



I have a brother and family in Ferguson and they unfortunately got caught up between everything that been happening.

Are they alright? Don't need any more innocents being unnecessarily harassed.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 19, 2014, 01:43:42 pm
Shit's still going down even after a week and some change, with no end in sight. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/police-fire-tear-gas-protesters-ferguson-missouri/story?id=25032050)
Quote
Johnson said journalists need to be more mindful of police efforts.
... Yeah, fuck that guy.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MightyKombat on August 19, 2014, 02:17:18 pm
so...is the President actually gonna get on top of this for those guys or what? Or at least is anyone higher up the government food chain gonna try to put a stop to this?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on August 19, 2014, 05:26:46 pm
National Guard is one of the highest-incommand, them not being able to control the situation is worrying.

This will only stop if one of the two sides give in. It would require either protesting to not have any kind of looting/vandalizing/etc whatsoever (not realistic) or the officers not fuckin' overreacting to the few troublemakers that start shit (also not likely to happen).

Also, "journalists need to be more mindful?"
The irony.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MightyKombat on August 19, 2014, 06:04:46 pm
Jesus fucking christ what the hell are the police doing to be able to stop the National Guard from keeping things stable? Or anyone at this rate.

Not ot mention how badly this is gonna end up for white people (especially when Tumblr's on this) and police from elsewhere around the US.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 19, 2014, 06:30:44 pm
Not ot mention how badly this is gonna end up for white people (especially when Tumblr's on this) and police from elsewhere around the US.

Not tumblr!! D:
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MightyKombat on August 19, 2014, 06:31:56 pm
Imagine if all the cops were straight and cisgendered too lol
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on August 19, 2014, 06:37:08 pm
Not tumblr!! D:

I can only imagine.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MightyKombat on August 19, 2014, 06:38:12 pm
"WHITE PEOPLE ARE THE ULTIMATE EVIL"
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on August 19, 2014, 07:29:10 pm
^ pretty much yeah. 

 clicky  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings)  Non peaceful protests and the National Guard, don't always end well.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on August 19, 2014, 07:47:14 pm
And they say learning about history is pointless, heh.

This happened a day after the Kent State shootings:
http://people.cohums.ohio-state.edu/grimsley1/warchild/kent.htm said:
Subsequently the students, enraged, went boiling down the western slope of Blanket Hill to confront the Guard near the ROTC building.  Several KSU faculty marshals, including Frank, tried to negotiate with Gen. Canterbury to prevent more violence, but Canterbury insisted that the students must disperse.  At that point, it looked more than ever as if another shooting would occur, because the students were out of their minds with grief and fury and Canterbury was locked into a very rigid pattern of thought.

Prof. Frank went to the students and, in an emotional plea, said:  "I don't care whether you've never listened to anyone before in your lives.  I am begging you right now.  .  If you don't disperse right now, they're going to move in, and it can only be a slaughter.  Would you please listen to me?  Jesus Christ, I don't want to be a part of this . . . !"

Hopefully this situation doesn't escalate to that level.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Cybaster on August 19, 2014, 11:04:23 pm
http://www.thewire.com/national/2014/08/city-of-ferguson-pledges-to-foster-diverse-police-force-and-vest-cameras/378778/

This could help in the future. Maybe.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bad News GBK on August 19, 2014, 11:16:54 pm
(http://images.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2014-08/fs-ferguson-polizei-usa-bilder/01-ferguson-polizei-usa.jpg)
(http://images.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2014-08/fs-ferguson-polizei-usa-bilder/03-ferguson-polizei-usa.jpg)
(http://images.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2014-08/fs-ferguson-polizei-usa-bilder/08-ferguson-polizei-usa.jpg)
(http://images.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2014-08/fs-ferguson-polizei-usa-bilder/11-ferguson-polizei-usa.jpg)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Lord Kain on August 19, 2014, 11:50:10 pm
And another shooting near by were the main incident just happened hours ago, this time another black dude got shot dead by a cop, things are probably gonna get heat up a bit more
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 20, 2014, 12:16:39 am
Not tumblr!! D:

I can only imagine.
addendun, i was mocking the shock over tumblr in the middle of something so serious.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MightyKombat on August 20, 2014, 12:17:54 am
Yeah, bad call from me, sorry.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 20, 2014, 12:18:53 am
And another shooting near by were the main incident just happened hours ago, this time another black dude got shot dead by a cop, things are probably gonna get heat up a bit more
Goddammit.

Not ot mention how badly this is gonna end up for white people (especially when Tumblr's on this) and police from elsewhere around the US.
You've really got to the real victims of all this: white people! How is this travesty of justice going to affect white people who don't live in Ferguson? Why won't anyone consider the poor, disaffected white people who might read mean things on tumblr! Oh the humanity!

Imagine if all the cops were straight and cisgendered too lol
jesus fucking christ
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MightyKombat on August 20, 2014, 12:26:03 am
uhhh, pretty fucking sure I apologized. :/
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Cybaster on August 20, 2014, 12:27:54 am
Policemen sure are smart in this area ...

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/st-louis-cops-shoot-kill-man-near-ferguson-crowd-gathers-n184216
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 20, 2014, 12:29:27 am
uhhh, pretty fucking sure I apologized. :/
We posted at the same time. :P
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MightyKombat on August 20, 2014, 12:31:00 am
Oh. Well. Fack. But yeah sorry bout that too
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on August 20, 2014, 06:27:38 am
addendun, i was mocking the shock over tumblr in the middle of something so serious.

I kinda figured. Regardless, it's not as if people everywhere aren't going apeshit (justifiably so of course).

Quote
The man in the St. Louis shooting had taken energy drinks and a package of pastries from a nearby convenience store, Police Chief Sam Dotson told reporters. He said that the man was “acting erratically, walking back and forth, up and down the street.”

The chief said that the officers repeatedly ordered the 23-year-old man to drop the knife and drew their weapons after he refused. The chief said the man told the police: “Shoot me now. Kill me now.”

He said the two officers fired after the man moved toward one of them and came within 3 to 4 feet.

So instead of using any other possible method that would result in one less causality (because I'm pretty sure there's at least one), they instead opt to shooting someone to death... smart.

At this point, the original event that triggered all of this is not even the focal point of the problem anymore. That said, it seems the officer that killed the boy suffered an obrital fracture and was fearing for his life during the conflict. (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/08/breaking-report-po-darren-wilson-suffered-orbital-blowout-fracture-to-eye-socket-during-encounter-with-mike-brown/)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Jango Hakamichi on August 20, 2014, 10:16:40 am
You know that the blog you're linking to is a radical right-wing political blog, right
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 20, 2014, 10:35:25 am
He was fearing for his life and that's what made him shoot a fleeing person? Because the officer's own statement said Brown was fleeing.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 20, 2014, 10:45:30 am
if i recall correctly the first official statement was that brown tried to wrestle the gun from him and the gun discharged inside the police car, then brown fleed and he shot him down.

I really doubt a right wing racist blog is a proper place to get any kind of news.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/19/us/ferguson-darren-wilson-support/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
other sources talk nothing about any injuries to the cop.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 20, 2014, 11:08:44 am
Yeah, that's what I read; the officer's version of events had a struggle happen, but Brown was shot while fleeing.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 20, 2014, 11:11:05 am
Yeah, the detail that Brown was "charging" when he was shot is new, it seems to have been made up and added when the autopsy report brought up the head wound. (guess that's why they generally don't release these things publicly !)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 20, 2014, 11:12:33 am
those kind of head wounds however happen a lot when someone shot collapses. if he was shot in the face first he would collapse and at that moment the next bullet would go through the top of the head
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 20, 2014, 11:16:48 am
There's one that went through his eye, his jaw, and into his collarbone, so that's two bullets that were shot after he was collapsing. Probably from the 4 he had in his right arm, which would be up in defense. If he was charging, he'd have both arms up, and wounds on both arms, no one charges with just one arm up - but you totally turn sideways to avoid shots fired at you and leave one arm behind and one in front.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 20, 2014, 01:28:03 pm
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/us/shooting-accounts-differ-as-holder-schedules-visit.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=LedeSum&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

more different accounts of the altercation


Al jazeera piece on the cult of compliance.
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/8/ferguson-police-shootracismcompliance.html
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 20, 2014, 01:33:40 pm
Quote
The fatal confrontation began on Aug. 9 shortly after the police received reports that two men had robbed a convenience store in Ferguson. Officer Wilson, who was not responding to the robbery, had stopped to speak with Mr. Brown and a friend, Dorian Johnson. The Ferguson police chief, Thomas Jackson, said that it was around the time that Officer Wilson started talking to the two that he realized they fit the description of the suspects in the convenience store robbery.
That's new.
Quote
But he said he did see a police officer get out of the patrol car and start walking briskly while firing on Mr. Brown as he fled.
...
According to his account to the Ferguson police, Officer Wilson said that Mr. Brown had lowered his arms and moved toward him, law enforcement officials said. Fearing that the teenager was going to attack him, the officer decided to use deadly force. Some witnesses have backed up that account.
That's... that's just nonsense. He starts to run away, the cop fires, and THEN Brown turns back and attacks ? That's a retarded allegation.

Has no one said anything about the gun and the shot that was fired inside the car ? At first there were claims that Brown tried to grab the gun when the cop was inside the car, but wouldn't the gun be on the cop's right side and him sitting on the left side ? Who the hell would try to grab a gun in that position - unless the gun was already drawn and pointed out the window ?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: D, The Red Cloak on August 20, 2014, 02:29:20 pm
Jesus, This whole thing makes me ashamed of being white.

I mean, why do police departments never seem to do a psychological exam and background check of the people they hire. You know, to know if the one being hired isn't a racist nutcase that became an officer just with the thought, "Hey, now I can shoot a black guy and not get reprimanded for it!"

I say that because apparently almost every white cop in Ferguson is a dick who has the idea that they can pull these kind of stunt and not get in trouble for it.

So why can't the higher ups actually do something, did these cops blackmail the higher ups or does the government actually agree with their views and don't want to say anything that can incriminate themselves.

If this keeps up, we could have a situation like in the movie Maniac Cop, where people get so afraid of law enforcement that they will strike back even if a cop is an actual good guy.

If it's sounds like I'm jumping around and rambling, I apologize, I just have many thoughts on this.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 20, 2014, 02:34:13 pm
Maybe there's no one else in the whole region that's white, who wants to be a cop, and isn't crazy and racist.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 20, 2014, 02:55:12 pm
you couldnt make this shit up
in an effort to explain the situation about how this isnt a power abuse, a lapd cop reveals he is abusive

Quote
Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don't want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don't argue with me, don't call me names, don't tell me that I can't stop you, don't say I'm a racist pig, don't threaten that you'll sue me and take away my badge. Don't scream at me that you pay my salary, and don't even think of aggressively walking towards me. Most field stops are complete in minutes. How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?

Arguing with a cop is not grounds to be shot, calling them names is not ground for being shot, telling them that they are acting illegaly isnt grounds to be shot, calling them racist isnt a reason to be shot, threatening to pursue legal means against the cop isnt grouns to be shot, screaming is not grounds to be shot, aggressively walking at a cop isnt grounds to be shot.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/im-a-cop-if-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 20, 2014, 03:03:56 pm
Quote
One time, for instance, my partner and I faced a belligerent man who had doused his car with gallons of gas and was about to create a firebomb at a busy mall filled with holiday shoppers. The potential for serious harm to the bystanders would have justified deadly force. Instead, I distracted him with a hook about his family and loved ones, and he disengaged without hurting anyone. Every day cops show similar restraint and resolve incidents that could easily end up in serious injuries or worse.
I didn't fire my weapon near a car doused in gasoline, what else do I have to do to earn a damn medal
Whose safety are the Fergusson cops defending when they're beating up, arresting, or just dispersing, the medias

Quote
And you don’t have to submit to an illegal stop or search.
...
don’t challenge a cop during a stop
Oh, okay, that makes sense
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Cybaster on August 20, 2014, 03:15:00 pm
Visas for entering the US have some very nice questions such as "Are you going to the US for any terrorist activity ?"
Makes me think the test to become a policeman in Ferguson goes like that :

Q : Are you a white man ?
A : yes

Q : Is you IQ higher than 100 ?
A : no

Q : Are you racist ?
A : Yes

Q : Do you want to shoot black people ?
A : yes

Congratulations, you've answered correctly all questions, you're now a Ferguson Police Officer. Be proud of your race and go shoot niggers out there. Don't forget to scream "noncompliance !!! noncompliance !!!" in the process.

:gonk:
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on August 20, 2014, 04:53:00 pm
Hunting season.

At least what happened overnight didn't result in tear gas and shootings, that's progress I guess.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/hopes-turning-point-ferguson-clashes/story?id=25047905

You know that the blog you're linking to is a radical right-wing political blog, right

I knew something was off but wanted to put it out there anyway (probably shouldn't have). Wouldn't be surprised if some major outlet ran with it though.

Another article they made grossly changed facts to something unrelated involving a private faith based group buying a hotel to house illegal kid immigrants (saying that the government was involved which wasn't true).
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on August 20, 2014, 07:14:27 pm
Visas for entering the US have some very nice questions such as "Are you going to the US for any terrorist activity ?"
Makes me think the test to become a policeman in Ferguson goes like that :

Q : Are you a white man ?
A : yes

Q : Is you IQ higher than 100 ?
A : no

Q : Are you racist ?
A : Yes

Q : Do you want to shoot black people ?
A : yes

Congratulations, you've answered correctly all questions, you're now a Ferguson Police Officer. Be proud of your race and go shoot niggers out there. Don't forget to scream "noncompliance !!! noncompliance !!!" in the process.

:gonk:

While I realize this post is PROBABLY you being a tiny bit sarcastic,  There is not enough money in any budget that would tempt me to be in law enforcement.  For those of you that think these cops are trigger happy, just remember these statistics:

Quote
The United States owns more guns per resident, at around 0.89, than any other nation in the world. The U.S. has over 50% more firearms per capita than the next two highest nations, Serbia and Yemen at about 0.55 and three times as many as major European countries such as France and Germany.


Yes I believe in the rights of citizens to own guns and I'm also aware that there are a lot of guns in the hands of criminals.  MO ranks 15th out of 50 states in gun ownership.  So if there are 9 guns for every 10 people in the USA and MO is ranked high on the list of number of guns (at least 50% of the people will admit to owning guns...doubt criminals will admit to it) how often do YOU think law enforcement believes the citizens they encounter are armed?  Probably every single time.

Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on August 20, 2014, 07:53:43 pm
Yeah, good argument against guns.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 20, 2014, 08:10:23 pm
Yeah, that's a terrible reason to shoot someone. The police are here to protect and serve citizens, assuming they're all gun-toting criminals is terrible. The police have to be held to a higher standard than that.

John Oliver on Last Week Tonight did a really, really good segment on all this. Well worth watching.

something that ties back into the whole "trigger happy cops" thing, there's a great bit here that points out that a lot of the pictures coming out of this situation show cops aiming their weapons at people, which is a huge, huge no-no: you only point your gun at someone you're ready to shoot at. You don't point them at people to scare them off.

Al jazeera piece on the cult of compliance.
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/8/ferguson-police-shootracismcompliance.html
great article
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Toonar12X on August 21, 2014, 02:39:46 am
for the news on fox today
A Ferguson Police Ofiicer who shot an unarmed 18-year-old has lived quiet, sometimes turbulent life.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/ferguson-police-officer-who-shot-unarmed-18-year-old-has-lived-quiet-sometimes/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/ferguson-police-officer-who-shot-unarmed-18-year-old-has-lived-quiet-sometimes/)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on August 21, 2014, 02:53:01 am
I mean, why do police departments never seem to do a psychological exam and background check of the people they hire. You know, to know if the one being hired isn't a racist nutcase that became an officer just with the thought, "Hey, now I can shoot a black guy and not get reprimanded for it!"
http://criminologycareers.about.com/od/Job_Market/a/Psychological-Screening-For-Police-Officers.htm

that said, it's naive to think psychological exams will always pick up these things. it's not a "hey do you want to shoot the blacks" "FUCK YES" "ok you cant be a cop please leave" situation
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 21, 2014, 04:20:50 am
http://boingboing.net/2014/08/20/officer-go-fuck-yourself-says.html?fk_bb
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: D, The Red Cloak on August 21, 2014, 04:36:28 am
I mean, why do police departments never seem to do a psychological exam and background check of the people they hire. You know, to know if the one being hired isn't a racist nutcase that became an officer just with the thought, "Hey, now I can shoot a black guy and not get reprimanded for it!"
http://criminologycareers.about.com/od/Job_Market/a/Psychological-Screening-For-Police-Officers.htm

that said, it's naive to think psychological exams will always pick up these things. it's not a "hey do you want to shoot the blacks" "FUCK YES" "ok you cant be a cop please leave" situation

Still, they could be a bit more thorough with their process.

http://boingboing.net/2014/08/20/officer-go-fuck-yourself-says.html?fk_bb

And this is what I meant when I said nutcase, here we have a cop, flat out saying that he is willing to KILL someone right there. And in the previous video posted here, we had an officer calling the protesters f**king animals, a picture of fully armored officers aiming their guns at an unarmed person, and a police chief ordering officers to go to a mall and arrest any black person that's inside.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on August 21, 2014, 05:25:16 am
Still, they could be a bit more thorough with their process.
dude, how. no amount of psychological tests can determine exactly how a person will react to situations like these. no amount of psychological tests will determine how much this person will change after becoming a cop and going through shit. i hate it when people bring up MAKE SURE THEYRE NOT CRAZY in cases like this one or in gun control arguments. there's only so much a handful of tests can determine about a person and how they will really react to something
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: D, The Red Cloak on August 21, 2014, 06:18:43 am
Still, they could be a bit more thorough with their process.
dude, how. no amount of psychological tests can determine exactly how a person will react to situations like these. no amount of psychological tests will determine how much this person will change after becoming a cop and going through shit. i hate it when people bring up MAKE SURE THEYRE NOT CRAZY in cases like this one or in gun control arguments. there's only so much a handful of tests can determine about a person and how they will really react to something

Your right... I don't like to admit it, but your right.

Sorry for looking like a fool, I just want this mess over and done with.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Nucka on August 21, 2014, 06:28:14 am
I imagined that the exams would be pretty intensive, I looked it up and from what I can find they're generally basic. But supposedly they fail them easily even if they're not crazy.
If you made them any harder you'd probably have really small police forces.

I do believe (in the spirit of Law & Order detective work) you could suss out a racist before they're hired. They would have to use real detective work that would cost way too much money.
Getting hard evidence or reasonable doubt is difficult but it's always easy to get personality type information about someone...i also have no idea what I'm talking about, but I bet I'm right.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on August 21, 2014, 06:36:10 am
I do believe (in the spirit of Law & Order detective work) you could suss out a racist before they're hired.
Hmm... I'll allow it, but you better be going somewhere with this, counselor.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: UrbaneVirtuoso on August 21, 2014, 04:21:42 pm
As an aside, whatever happened to Anonymous? That video statement sure gleamed of principle~.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on August 21, 2014, 04:29:54 pm
after the police come clean they retreated down, but the guy they had doxed was the wrong guy, they complained it was a single person spreading uncomfirmed information in a dangerous manner.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on August 29, 2014, 08:37:42 pm
Well, it's not a pseudo-warzone there anymore (thank god). No protesting was done on August 25 as per the request of the family who's son was killed. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28924099) Nothing has escalated since.

On to the aftermath, police being sued for actions that violated civil rights. (http://news.msn.com/us/missouri-police-sued-for-dollar40-million-over-actions-in-ferguson-protests?ocid=ansnews11)

Quote
The suit, filed in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri, says law enforcement met a broad public outcry over the Aug. 9 killing of 18-year-old Michael Brown with "militaristic displays of force and weaponry," (and) engaged U.S. citizens "as if they were war combatants."

The lawsuit seeks a total of $40 million on behalf of six plaintiffs, including a 17-year-old boy who was with his mother in a fast-food restaurant when they were arrested. Each of the plaintiffs was caught up in interactions with police over a period from Aug. 11 to 13, the suit allege.

Named as defendants are the city of Ferguson, St. Louis County, Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson, St. Louis County Police Chief Jon Delmar, Ferguson police officer Justin Cosmo, and other unnamed police officers from Ferguson and St. Louis County.

Neither the city, county nor police departments had any immediate comment on the lawsuit.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Xan on September 01, 2014, 10:27:33 pm
Police are now wearing body cameras. (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/01/us-usa-missouri-shooting-idUSKBN0GW13M20140901)
Quote
Police officers in Ferguson, Missouri, have begun wearing body cameras after weeks of unrest over the shooting death of an unarmed black teen by a white officer and sharply differing accounts of the incident, officials said on Sunday.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Jango Hakamichi on September 01, 2014, 10:35:40 pm
I agree cops should be under surveillance since, y'know, they have to represent the law and corruption can ruin all of that. However, I imagine there are many, MANY ways this can backfire.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Cybaster on September 01, 2014, 10:44:27 pm
Well, it's always possible to hack stuff or something, but most cops, if :
- traced with a camera,
- their position on field being localised with a GPS,
- every single move monitored
- and the worst be assumed if they don't have their camera on and a shooting occurs (i.e. if you go on field without your camera and something like the Ferguson shooting occurs, we will assume you are a murderer who killed an innocent in cold blood)
They'll probably think about it twice before going on a gun shooting frenziness.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on October 02, 2014, 02:48:40 pm
New page, new information.

So apparently the police indeed tried to cover up the shooting.
http://www.blackenterprise.com/news/shaun-king-exposes-ferguson-pd-lies-about-michael-brown-case/

Quote
With almost 100K views on Storify, Shaun King details the plan of action by the Ferguson police to cover up the shooting through a series of events that sound straight out of a major motion picture. From police union reps instructing Darren Wilson to not make a statement after the incident occurred to a mapping of the distance from Wilson’s car to Brown’s body, it seems that the Ferguson Police Department will have a lot of explaining to do.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on November 18, 2014, 12:44:05 am
FERGUSON, Mo. — Gov. Jay Nixon declared a state of emergency on Monday, allowing him to activate the Missouri National Guard in preparation for a grand jury decision on whether to indict a white police officer for shooting to death an unarmed black teenager, Michael Brown, three months ago.

 source  (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/us/missouri-governor-calls-out-national-guard-ahead-of-grand-jury-decision.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&_r=0)


Anonymous Takes The Hoods Off The KKK After Threats Of ‘Lethal Force’ On Ferguson Protesters

  source  (http://www.alan.com/2014/11/15/anonymous-takes-the-hoods-off-the-kkk-after-threats-of-lethal-force-on-ferguson-protesters/)

This could get ugly and I hope it doesnt.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Black Hatter on November 18, 2014, 12:50:02 am
^Best expect the worst than. As much as people don't want this to escalate, something bad is definitely on the freaking horizon.
*sigh*
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Legendary DeMoNk@I on November 25, 2014, 03:45:42 am
And yep...Of course the cop didnt get indicted....I figured that shit was going to happen smh

Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on November 25, 2014, 03:55:30 am
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/24/ferguson-grand-jury-deliberations/19474907/

Yeah, not really a surprise. Disappointing none the less.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: TempesT on November 25, 2014, 04:11:50 am
Disappointing is the understatement of the century.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Predictabo on November 25, 2014, 04:21:13 am
And yep...Of course the cop didnt get indicted....I figured that shit was going to happen smh



Fucked up. I knew it, meanwhile, my brother is in jail for being accused of shooting someone in the leg. How does that work?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DJ_HANNIBALROYCE on November 25, 2014, 04:21:26 am
im not surprised about this. smh
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Black Hatter on November 25, 2014, 04:22:43 am
Like I said, expect the worst. :'(
Poor Michael Brown, his family will never get the justice and closure they rightfully deserve. :'(
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on November 25, 2014, 04:35:55 am
Actually being in the city during this nonsense is frustrating. The rich white parts are all blocking up their doors like us blacks are a bunch of rabid animals with no self control.

One of the most prominent pieces of American history were the non-violent African-American movement during its period of segregation. A very similar situation JUST occurred in Florida with the Treyvon Martin case, with minimal damage and a peaceful resolution. The name of the bloody protests are "Hands Up, Don't Shoot". Yet they call the National Guard and declare a state of emergency.

What do us people of color have to do to gain respect in on this fucking planet, make our universal symbol a damn Hello Kitty painting? I can only help but think that if some middle age rich white woman's kid were shot by the police (a very likely scenario), the media wouldn't dare to portray their own people like that. But you know how those negros act when you kill their children. Better tell all those scared petite whites to lock their doors, so that nobody pays attention to the fact that a MOTHER LOST HER SON AND NOBODY IS TO TAKE THE BLAME.

Fuck this. Fuck every single thing about this.

Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DJ_HANNIBALROYCE on November 25, 2014, 04:40:25 am
Better tell all those scared petite whites to lock their doors, so that nobody pays attention to the fact that a MOTHER LOST HER SON AND NOBODY IS TO TAKE THE BLAME.

Fuck this. Fuck every single thing about this.


truth
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on November 25, 2014, 04:45:06 am
What do us people of color have to do to gain respect in on this fucking planet
isn't the reelected president black
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on November 25, 2014, 05:23:50 am
Protests are far beyond Ferguson btw. Just spoke to relatives back in NYC about it too.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/24/us/national-ferguson-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Disappointing is the understatement of the century.

I'll just say that this is one those few times where unfiltered venting is justifed.

Yeah this shit was a complete joke; anybody who can actually defend the police force as a whole, let alone Wilson, should have their head examined.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on November 25, 2014, 06:10:31 am
What do us people of color have to do to gain respect in on this fucking planet
isn't the reelected president black
titln are you serious because obama is often publicly disrespected, including during visits to states (jan brewer), and state of the union (joe wilson) which are the most famous ones i can come up with

furthermore, its plain fact that african americans are viewed negatively by a lot of people. you can go to any internet comment section. its not just trolling, and even if it is, you can tell theres vitriol behind it. nobody goes "haha fucking niggers go back to africa" just for a couple harmless noncommital laughs. they most likely mean it, and even if they didnt, they would not use such rhetoric if they did not hold them in a negative light.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Duos on November 25, 2014, 06:20:52 am
Yeah using the president (one of the most consistently disrespected people alive) was a bad example.

Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on November 25, 2014, 07:08:30 am
the point is that he was elected and re elected. those things happened. there's a large enough amount of americans that think a black person can run the country. people that don't agree with the president ridicule the president all the time. that makes him no different than every president before him. then there's all the people of all races outraged on social media about what just happened. yeah there are still a bunch of racists around but "we get no respect in this fucking planet" seems like a ridiculous stretch
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Duos on November 25, 2014, 09:31:53 am
In case you had any doubts left about this being a racially charged conflict. (https://twitter.com/LogicalHater/status/537108688277094400)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: 【RTC】MelvanaInChains on November 25, 2014, 02:39:08 pm
yeah there are still a bunch of racists around but "we get no respect in this fucking planet" seems like a ridiculous stretch

guess it's easy to forget that when they can't even buy a fucking sandwich without getting killed, under the guise that it looked like a firearm
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DJ_HANNIBALROYCE on November 25, 2014, 03:08:08 pm
furthermore, its plain fact that african americans are viewed negatively by a lot of people. you can go to any internet comment section. its not just trolling, and even if it is, you can tell theres vitriol behind it. nobody goes "haha fucking niggers go back to africa" just for a couple harmless noncommital laughs. they most likely mean it, and even if they didnt, they would not use such rhetoric if they did not hold them in a negative light.

1000% correct.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 25, 2014, 03:17:53 pm
Uh, you can't possibly hope to gain respect from every single person on the planet.
Obviously there will always be a large part of the population who are just plain assholes (that includes racists, casual or not), but it's undeniable that a Black person getting elected president of the US does mean that an important part of the US population also DOES respect him. And that can't be proven wrong just by naming a few people who are insulting him, however many of them there are.
The fact is that he was elected in the first place. Those who insult him are likely to be part of those who didn't vote for him to begin with (or in the case of our own French president, people who realized too late he was a screw up), so they don't somehow count more than those who did vote for him. Unless you want to also start counting the people who sing praises at him and shout I love you or whatever ? Wouldn't that be fair ?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Anti-11 on November 25, 2014, 03:18:56 pm
going to share this quote my cousin stated

"OK people Mike Brown was a tragedy, but we as black people are to blame. We use to fight for equality and rights and against hate and intolerance. We marched and fought for right and as soon as things got tolerable we stop. We kill each other for no reason other than meaningless paper or the fact that someone else wears a different color. We should have continued marches on DC,fighting for equal rights. We stopped asking questions, stopped supporting each other. We as a people are more about holding each other down than helping each other succeed. We used use one's struggle as fuel to force injustice to halt. We look up to Jay-Z who doesn't give a damn about poor black people struggling. Yet he always raps about struggle. All these rappers that our youths listen to talk about holding down the race. Yet kids are too oblivious to the fact these rappers are just puppets. They want you to focus on dreams that are limited success. Injustice thrives when the ignorant will not fight or rebel against it. For us to ask for justice or freedom without fighting is stupid as hell. You don't get justice or freedom without a struggle. If you want justice then We have to hold everyone(even ourselves)accountable for every death. Cops,gangs,drug deals gone bad, and ignorant "Nigga Moments" We as a people have to hold everyone accountable and fight as one in our own neighborhoods and then focus on bigger issues.That's all I have to say, say whatever you want but that is truth."
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on November 25, 2014, 03:22:31 pm
guess it's easy to forget that when they can't even buy a fucking sandwich without getting killed, under the guise that it looked like a firearm
yeah i'm sure that has happened more than once
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: [DKG] on November 25, 2014, 03:33:56 pm
What do us people of color have to do to gain respect in on this fucking planet
Pretty sure white is a color too... kinda hate the fact that people that arent caucasian, always bring that up. I mean everyone is a person of color.

Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 25, 2014, 03:37:01 pm
Someone Google "Dear white fella"

(edit - it's right that everybody, white or black or else, can want respect, and it's a battle everybody goes through, but you can't deny that Black people have always had a shorter leg in that race when compared to White people, come on)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on November 25, 2014, 09:59:26 pm
Actually being in the city during this nonsense is frustrating. The rich white parts are all blocking up their doors like us blacks are a bunch of rabid animals with no self control.

One of the most prominent pieces of American history were the non-violent African-American movement during its period of segregation. A very similar situation JUST occurred in Florida with the Treyvon Martin case, with minimal damage and a peaceful resolution. The name of the bloody protests are "Hands Up, Don't Shoot". Yet they call the National Guard and declare a state of emergency.

What do us people of color have to do to gain respect in on this fucking planet, make our universal symbol a damn Hello Kitty painting? I can only help but think that if some middle age rich white woman's kid were shot by the police (a very likely scenario), the media wouldn't dare to portray their own people like that. But you know how those negros act when you kill their children. Better tell all those scared petite whites to lock their doors, so that nobody pays attention to the fact that a MOTHER LOST HER SON AND NOBODY IS TO TAKE THE BLAME.

Fuck this. Fuck every single thing about this.

Did you post this before or after the rioting?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on November 25, 2014, 10:18:25 pm
im prettu sure.most of the looting isnt done by protestors. the riots are ugly tho
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on November 25, 2014, 10:25:41 pm
Regardless of who it was, immediately after the announcement people started looting and setting cars and buildings on fire. Meanwhile, police immediately started firing teargas and pushing and dispersing the crowds. Why would anyone condemn people for protecting themselves from rioters during a riot?

This police vs civilian shit has to end. All we're doing is hurting and killing ourselves.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: TempesT on November 25, 2014, 10:29:55 pm
guess it's easy to forget that when they can't even buy a fucking sandwich without getting killed, under the guise that it looked like a firearm
yeah i'm sure that has happened more than once
Not that particular but policemen killing black people from excessive use of force, negligence or just plain ignorance isn't a new thing.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/01/justice/new-york-choke-hold-death/
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/05/charges-nixed-in-nypd-shooting-ramarley-graham.html
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/12/kendrec-mcdade-pasadena-police-shooting-justified.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/timothy-russell-malissa-williams-cleveland-shooting_n_2315330.html
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/d/amadou_diallo/index.html
http://ihrlaw.org/2011/08/11/five-new-orleans-police-officers-convicted-in-post-katrina-shooting-deaths-of-civilians-on-danziger-bridge/

And this is the tip of the iceberg. Black people walking down the street doing anything remotely suspicious to the wrong cop are in danger of losing their lives because their lives aren't respected.

In either case, this has to be where policemen across the country are forced to wear cameras. It has to stop at some point.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on November 25, 2014, 10:33:34 pm
And this is the tip of the iceberg. Black people walking down the street doing anything remotely suspicious to the wrong cop are in danger of losing their lives because their lives aren't respected.

In either case, this has to be where policemen across the country are forced to wear cameras. It has to stop at some point.

Agreed. That sounds like the perfect solution.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 25, 2014, 10:34:35 pm
This police vs civilian shit has to end. All we're doing is hurting and killing ourselves.
Okay, let's say the rioting ends. What happens to the ruling of not prosecuting the cop ? What happens to the evidence that he didn't kill the guy in self defense ? Who talks about it ? (I mean right now, even if the camera thing got spread starting now, this is still something in the future, it won't affect this particular ruling)
The thing is that in the end, those riots are all some people can do to tell the government that they don't agree with the court. If the court system isn't enough to do something about the manipulations by the police and the court itself deciding to turn a blind eye, where does the people get represented in this ? How does the people stop the system from defending itself, what third party can step in and sue someone ?
For a lot of people, the only answer that exists is riots. It doesn't really matter if you complain that they're just killing each other.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on November 25, 2014, 10:40:06 pm
You may have a point there. I don't know if the right people will listen but the voice is out there now because of this. The end goal should be the end of a mutual prejudice between each other, though. That's the only way there can ever be peace on this issue.

I doubt it will happen in any of our lifetimes.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on November 26, 2014, 05:15:29 am
Uh, you can't possibly hope to gain respect from every single person on the planet.
Obviously there will always be a large part of the population who are just plain assholes (that includes racists, casual or not), but it's undeniable that a Black person getting elected president of the US does mean that an important part of the US population also DOES respect him. And that can't be proven wrong just by naming a few people who are insulting him, however many of them there are.
The concept of institutionalized racism and a history of racial and ethnic abuse go so far beyond the president that I actually question if titiln was trolling bringing it up. There were 43 white presidents of the united states and one of MIXED descent. It's a step in the right direction, but to say that because one black man is in the office that we're finished and that racism is no longer an issue is borderline retarded.


Regardless of who it was, immediately after the announcement people started looting and setting cars and buildings on fire. Meanwhile, police immediately started firing teargas and pushing and dispersing the crowds. Why would anyone condemn people for protecting themselves from rioters during a riot?

This police vs civilian shit has to end. All we're doing is hurting and killing ourselves.

My post was before the rioting, and I stand by it. I currently reside in Bellfontaine with family friends for schooling, literally a block away from Ferguson. A STARK majority of protests have been peaceful, and there has been minimal damage. The media has chosen to highlight the very small minority of people who violently reacted (against a very militant police force), for obvious reasons. Please question what you see on the news, as they have a very clear agenda 99% of the time. I used to say this without truly understanding it, but watching them skew this situation out of proportion puts things in perspective and damn near makes me sick.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on November 26, 2014, 05:38:05 am
Law enforcement wearing cameras would be a step in the right direction. So would forbidding the police to carry guns but that's being way too hopeful. Just a quick search on the topic, law enforcement in the UK (excluding Northern Ireland) don't carry firearms barring special circumstances.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 06:04:43 am
There were 43 white presidents of the united states and one of MIXED descent.
I would ask if you're trolling bt clearly you're really being stupid here.
And no one anywhere said that we're finished with racism. This is just blatant manipulation when you act like someone did say that.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on November 26, 2014, 02:59:27 pm
Way to illustrate your point. The way you clearly provided a contradicting statement and your reasoning as opposed to just mindlessly calling something stupid really drove it home.

If you disagree with something I've said, then say it. You don't NEED to be volatile every time you disagree with someone. You can, but at least explain your damn point. I feel this discussion is way too important to devolve into a 2-year old screaming match, so if you're going to come at me, try again. Like an adult, please.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 03:20:29 pm
The number of white presidents before Obama is completely irrelevant. If anything, it actually shows that something changed for a Black man to be elected after so many white guys. Especially since you're talking about a list that started more than a couple hundred years ago, when the entire point is that the change is occurring now. As for emphasizing that he's of "mixed descent", that's just plain dumb. He's Black. He's been called a Muslim, he's been called Kenyan, all that because of his skin color, he's totally Black. Your attempt at manipulating facts is completely ridiculous and laughable. And you're just being a complete piece of shit in this last post. And I'm being kind here, keep in mind that you really don't deserve any explanation with this absolutely shitty attitude. I'm doing you a favor.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Walt on November 26, 2014, 03:38:24 pm
You don't NEED to be volatile every time you disagree with someone. You can, but at least explain your damn point. I feel this discussion is way too important to devolve into a 2-year old screaming match, so if you're going to come at me, try again. Like an adult, please.
Ah, you'd never met Byakko before?

Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 03:44:37 pm
Hey walt, why don't you jump in more of the discussions I'm in and throw in snide comments like that more often ?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on November 26, 2014, 03:46:52 pm
the fact that obama was elected doesn't mean racism magically ended (it never will, some people will always hate other people over dumb shit), but it is a very important milestone. you can't say something as hyperbolic as "what do us people of color have to do to gain respect in on this fucking planet" when america's voters decided to put a person of color into office. it means that a huge amount of people in america can overlook race. you can argue that he's not really black, but he sure as fuck isn't white
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Walt on November 26, 2014, 03:49:37 pm
Hey walt, why don't you jump in more of the discussions I'm in and throw in snide comments like that more often ?
I'll bear that in mind. Sometimes I get busy, y'know?

Also, you bring up good points VERY often, and you're a valuable contributor to most discussions you're involved in, in terms of analysis and clarity, but your constant aggression really detracts from people putting the proper value on you. Take that as you will, but you could use slightly less insults all around man.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 03:56:06 pm
I was hoping it was noticeable that I've been working on it in the past couple of years. I still don't feel like I need to give the time of day to people who, for example, manipulate facts and hope that no one will notice. I consider that to be largely more insulting to everyone else's intelligence than I am.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Walt on November 26, 2014, 04:09:02 pm
There's also (and I may be going out on a limb with devil's advocate here) the possibility that the guy truly believe that because he has been manipulated into doing so. He articulates his point rather well, it seems like honestly believes that ... even if you or I disagree, that's how he sees it. Agenda or not, maybe losing your composure and throwing insults and...

... never mind, he started by calling your point retarded in #192. Carry on.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 04:14:29 pm
losing your composure and throwing insults
The latter doesn't mean the former. He's not entitled to anything. Even without the "retarded" part you noticed, he was still calling Titiln a troll for presenting a point that he didn't agree with.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on November 26, 2014, 04:29:00 pm
But you still had yet to actually point out WHAT you disagreed with in my statement, yeah? You said "that's dumb" and essentially walked off. So all I'm getting from this is that you're mad I called your point retarded. I'm a grown man, I apologize for that. But don't waltz in here firing off insults (to someone who's LITERALLY in the thick of the situation at hand) without so much as a "here's why I disagree". I'm not entitled to anything? What are we, in junior high? You opened your mouth, now make your point. Unless you're just garnering attention by reacting without actually reading the posts in the thread. We both know you know better than that.

And if you really want to get technical, I never explicitly called titiln a troll, but it's nice that I'm the one manipulating the conversation here, right? Speaking of...

the fact that obama was elected doesn't mean racism magically ended (it never will, some people will always hate other people over dumb shit), but it is a very important milestone. you can't say something as hyperbolic as "what do us people of color have to do to gain respect in on this fucking planet" when america's voters decided to put a person of color into office. it means that a huge amount of people in america can overlook race. you can argue that he's not really black, but he sure as fuck isn't white
That's a fair point, and I'm definitely NOT arguing the fact that Obama is in office is irrelevant. However being a black man (foreign to the US at that) I've seen and experienced struggles my entire life just for those reasons. We're making progress, to say we haven't would be equally as retarded, given, but my point is that in the grand scheme of things if our children are still being killed without repercussion, then no we are most definitely not respected. Saying we have ZERO respect is obviously not true, and something stated more for effect than to be dissected in particular. What's more important is that my point gets across (which seems like the general consensus anyway) that our system is fucked, and this is unacceptable, to use an understatement.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 04:40:47 pm
http://mugenguild.com/forum/msg.2051264
Why do you even claim I didn't explain what was wrong with your post ?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on November 26, 2014, 04:49:25 pm
Maybe because that wasn't the post I was referring to, an even in that one you're on this spiel about how I "don't deserve your explanation".

I don't respond to that. We're not kids, we're two grown men on the internet. I have no problem having a conversation about a subject, but I'm not throwing blows with you like an idiot. You've said your piece and I believe I've responded to it. I'd be interested in hearing your rebuttal, of course, but you're not doing me any favors, and I don't respond to schoolyard tactics. Make that understood.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 04:57:01 pm
You seem to be under the impression that calling me a school kid makes you a big man. It only makes you laughable, considering you were wrong in the first place. But maybe you're simply trying to belittle me as much as you can just because I dared to point out how flawed and manipulative your argument was, and you're trying to sweep it under the carpet.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on November 26, 2014, 05:03:47 pm
...are you being fucking serious right now dude?


It's blatantly obvious I have nothing but respect for you (it's the only reason I'm maintaining this level of composure, if I thought you were some moron on the internet I wouldn't even give you the time of day)

With that said, before you respond I openly suggest you step back, actually read what I've been posting without getting heated, and make a decision on what you want to say. I understand it's very easy to get offended and start firing stuff off, but as I've said before I don't concern myself with that. Relax.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 05:14:14 pm
It's blatantly obvious I have nothing but respect for you
[...]
With that said, before you respond I openly suggest you step back, actually read what I've been posting without getting heated, and make a decision on what you want to say.
Right...
If you disagree with something I've said, then say it. You don't NEED to be volatile every time you disagree with someone. You can, but at least explain your damn point. I feel this discussion is way too important to devolve into a 2-year old screaming match, so if you're going to come at me, try again. Like an adult, please.
What are we, in junior high? You opened your mouth, now make your point. Unless you're just garnering attention by reacting without actually reading the posts in the thread. We both know you know better than that.
I don't respond to that. We're not kids, we're two grown men on the internet. [...] I don't respond to schoolyard tactics. Make that understood.
All of this is nothing but condescending. Yes, even the "we both know you're better than that" (this has never been a good thing to say, I don't understand why people even say shit like that when they don't mean it as an insult). When you do it so often in a short period of time, it just becomes flat out insulting.
None of that shows that you have "nothing but respect". You're only sounding like some kind of politician covering his ass, trying to sound like an adult talking to kids. If you thought this was respectful, maybe you should try to read your own post and make sure it doesn't sound too warped from what you actually mean. If that's really just a communication issue, then I apologize. I don't know how close to Fergusson you are but I can understand it's affecting you one way or another.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on November 26, 2014, 05:53:08 pm
Hyperbolic statement turned into a point of tension, heh. All things considered, I don't have an issue that particular point. Grits was speaking more on the accounts of the average minority (who indeed doesn't get the same amount of respect as the average white teenager), so Obama isn't exactly the best comparison even if it is a valid counter argument to the statement itself. On the topic of respect,

In case you had any doubts left about this being a racially charged conflict. (https://twitter.com/LogicalHater/status/537108688277094400)

Those are just impulsive ingorants who react off what they see rather than do some research and formulate an opinion that actually matters to any decently educated person (and by educated I mean people who know that basic human respect isn't malleable due to racial background). Fuck gaining their respect cause their good graces mean jack shit to be quite frank. And yeah, anyone with eyes knows it's a racial issue; saying otherwise, and of course there are some who really believe otherwise, is spitting in the face of common sense.

All and all, African American kids aren't as respected as their white counterparts, and that's not something that will change anytime soon. Unfortunate reality of being a minority in white America. Doesn't help that there are no other developed nations (where blacks are the majority) to help shape perceived notions of individuals. Sure people like Obama help, but try convincing the average (read: dumb, beer-guzzling fatass) American that an average black teenager will even have a decently successful profession, much less become a nation leader. Yeah.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on November 26, 2014, 05:55:47 pm
byakko you dont need to go 0 to 100 over something as tame as somebody calling someone else a troll. your aggression was needless and unwarranted until he stooped down and started responding in kind. looking at his posts i honest;ly think he wanst trying to be condescending but miscommunicating his problems with how aggressive you are. when you back someone into a corner they will make lots of mistakes.

your points are good and in most cases you are right, but the aggression always blows stuff up into a bigger problem. if you dont want to give the time of day to bad arguments, you dont insult them down you just present your point and let that do the work imo
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 06:13:40 pm
Yeah, sorry but no.
His post :
The concept of institutionalized racism and a history of racial and ethnic abuse go so far beyond the president that I actually question if titiln was trolling bringing it up. There were 43 white presidents of the united states and one of MIXED descent. It's a step in the right direction, but to say that because one black man is in the office that we're finished and that racism is no longer an issue is borderline retarded.
My response :
I would ask if you're trolling bt clearly you're really being stupid here.
And no one anywhere said that we're finished with racism. This is just blatant manipulation when you act like someone did say that.
My post is really not any more aggressive than his own, plus I'm actually making a point in it ("no one said we're finished with racism"), I'm not just calling him stupid and leaving (despite claims to the contrary). Even my first sentence there is only mirroring his own about titiln trolling. Things went south after that, but you can't say my post is responsible for it, I didn't corner him into "making a mistake" any more than he cornered me into insulting him by being condescending. I'm not taking the blame every time you guys think I've thrown more insults and people don't like curse words.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on November 26, 2014, 06:31:33 pm
nobody cornered you into insulting and nobody said they didnt like curse words. your behavior is in no way conducive to an actual debate because every you time feel someone is wrong you throw accusations at will whereas in gritsmaster case it has happened once. theres no need to insult somebody so harshly for making one general condescending statement. thats all im trying to say. you use any one post as an excuse to be aggressive for the rest of yours. its disproportional and youre also making it hard for gritsmaster not to respond in kind, especially when you construe all of his posts to be malicious- a clear case of miscommunication. he's tried to explain multiple times he is confused by how aggressive you are and wants no part of it, and thats why hes making those "schoolyard" generalizations.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 06:44:16 pm
Yeah, still no.
I started getting insulting after this :
Way to illustrate your point. The way you clearly provided a contradicting statement and your reasoning as opposed to just mindlessly calling something stupid really drove it home.

If you disagree with something I've said, then say it. You don't NEED to be volatile every time you disagree with someone. You can, but at least explain your damn point. I feel this discussion is way too important to devolve into a 2-year old screaming match, so if you're going to come at me, try again. Like an adult, please.
This one wasn't a communication issue. He first changed my argument and then called it retarded, I called him stupid, and then this. This one wasn't a mistake. I can't accept that you say I don't need to insult people so harshly but don't bat an eye to something like that : talking about a "2 year old screaming match" when nothing even started (except him calling other people retarded - walt even pointed that out, why are you not seeing it), going "if you want to come at me, try again", and "try like an adult". You guys need to stop seeing such a difference between this kind of post and mine, and stop blaming me for responding with insults to something like that. If you're going to step in, you shouldn't let provocation like that slide in the first place, or at least admit that this was the starting point, not my response.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on November 26, 2014, 06:52:28 pm
Yeah, I don't really offer any apologies for those statements by the way. I very obviously tried to be civil, apologized for my earlier admittedly impulsive comment and requested multiple times that you meet me as an adult, and you refused. At that point if you find my view on that as childish offensive, I really don't have the energy to argue with you or care.

Bottom line: I'm not interested in arguing fucking semantics with you when a child in my current city has been shot dead to the ground. And I mean that in the most respectful way possible.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 06:55:56 pm
requested multiple times that you meet me as an adult
Okay, then : maybe you should stop thinking that you're being nice or civil when you say something like that. You're not, and it's irritating. And I'm not intending to be anything other than civil when I say that.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on November 26, 2014, 06:59:44 pm
that was one post in reaction to the fact you took a stupid post and insulted him harshly over it. he miscommunicated the idea that he didnt want a fight with you. you are blowing this way out of proportion. youre insane if you think this justifies your behavior. it doesnt. nothing justifies how aggressive you are unless the guy is blatantly insulting you and throwing ad hominems your way about your character, not your argument. instead, you decided to attack his character. the retarded thing was the issue, everything else was him failing to adequately avoid a conflict for that mistake and you misconstruing it as him furthering the argument. he doesnt want to argue with you hence the "try like an adult," he has said he respects you, you just dont wnat to accept the fact that this guy isnt out to insult your intelligence. he entered a debate he wasnt ready for and said some stupid shit, and got called for it. thats fine. it happens. your aggression and character attacks caused him to make that post youve quoted. instead of telling him why its retarded to call that argument retarded, you made a humungously condescending post yourself and now youre incredulous he responded badly.

the retarded post was arguably the starting post but it was just a dumb post, not a malicious post. on the other hand, your posts were definitely malicious. so nobodys not at fault here, but you really need to cool it.

EDIT: shouldve said this earlier, both of you have made charged statements, but its gotten totally offtopic. if you have an issue with eachother, you can hash it out via PM or you can take it to feedback to warnings i suppose. but we need to keep this on arguments, not eachother.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on November 26, 2014, 07:06:02 pm
Umezono, he's not attacking my argument when he keeps calling me a child and asking me to act like an adult. And I'm not attacking his person when I'm saying he manipulated what I (or someone else) said, to then call it retarded.

I do understand what you're saying, I want that to be clear. But you're misled.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on November 26, 2014, 07:08:14 pm
i pmed you so i can get a better handle of your feelings on the issue- so id like to rerail and close this discussion off for now

if anyone else has relevant material on ferguson feel free to post it, but the above issue is closed
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Toonar12X on November 26, 2014, 08:33:07 pm
hmm... so let's talk about obama's speech ehh?

i'll have one of you start off. just let this talk for itself.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bad News GBK on November 26, 2014, 09:54:42 pm
...god bless america ...
(https://33.media.tumblr.com/45f3e987f368665c3001134dc96fcc83/tumblr_nfmdnxHpFC1qzih6bo1_1280.jpg)
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/4f803e936318775f7472085a299cf1cf/tumblr_nfmdnxHpFC1qzih6bo2_1280.jpg)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: GentleOne on November 26, 2014, 10:08:53 pm
First of all, I'd like to note that the violent protestors represent an overwhelming minority.


Secondly, I wonder if those who are saying that the election/reelection of a black President reflects a change in the perception of blacks overall, are serious? IIRC, Obama won somewhere in the range of 35% of the overall white vote, but either way, one black man's perception does not reflect every black man's treatment.


Having lived in New York City, where Obama carried over 80% of the electorate, and apparently like 52% of the white electorate state wide (which is debatable), my average black life was pretty awesome:
- Getting the cops called on me twice for running for a train whose doors were closing - the second incident was with a Latin woman
- Getting told by a fellow resident that a particular side of the doorman's desk was designated only to the building's residents and that I should stand at the other side because he assumed I was a guest
- Getting followed in a store in a Jewish area
- Attempting to ask for directions while in Manhattan like 9 times in one day in broad daylight to literally be run away from!  In one incident a guy cut me off condescendingly saying, "Not interested" before a word even exited my mouth - I had a nice "PENN" shirt on that day
- Nearly getting kicked off a soccer team full of members, and two coaches, who voted for Obama because I "threw up gang symbols"



Once again, these videos, which likely include many people who voted for Obama, reflect an intrinsic subconscious level of racism that is out there:
Bike Thief:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qMK-JSXawM
Vandalism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9odAuzz6kB0

The saving grace for the Ferguson case is that it wasn't as terrible as the decision in the Rodney King beating...


-Edit:-
On another note, poor whites face similar issues and deserve just as much attention. Police irrationality, paranoia, and irresponsibility needs to be characterized in a universal light because this is just sad:
http://downtrend.com/71superb/unarmed-white-man-shot-by-police-no-riots-al-sharpton-silent-obama-keeps-golfing/
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: City_Hunter on November 27, 2014, 07:36:29 pm
dont know if it was post but Darren wilson the cops who shoot Michael Brown gave his version of the story in a interview
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/11/25/in-interview-ferguson-cop-darren-wilson-says-there-was-no-way-michael-brown-had/

Also since this topic is about police brutallity
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/tamir-rice-shooting-officer-shot-12-year-old-boy-within-2-seconds-1.2850452
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Rajaa on November 28, 2014, 01:26:00 am
First of all, I'd like to note that the violent protestors represent an overwhelming minority.


Secondly, I wonder if those who are saying that the election/reelection of a black President reflects a change in the perception of blacks overall, are serious? IIRC, Obama won somewhere in the range of 35% of the overall white vote, but either way, one black man's perception does not reflect every black man's treatment.


Having lived in New York City, where Obama carried over 80% of the electorate, and apparently like 52% of the white electorate state wide (which is debatable), my average black life was pretty awesome:
- Getting the cops called on me twice for running for a train whose doors were closing - the second incident was with a Latin woman
- Getting told by a fellow resident that a particular side of the doorman's desk was designated only to the building's residents and that I should stand at the other side because he assumed I was a guest
- Getting followed in a store in a Jewish area
- Attempting to ask for directions while in Manhattan like 9 times in one day in broad daylight to literally be run away from!  In one incident a guy cut me off condescendingly saying, "Not interested" before a word even exited my mouth - I had a nice "PENN" shirt on that day
- Nearly getting kicked off a soccer team full of members, and two coaches, who voted for Obama because I "threw up gang symbols"
I literally, in my entire life of over 20 years in NYC, have never experienced any direct racism like the incidents you describe above (not at all, actually). And to be fair, if you go up to ANYONE on the street, you will likely get dismissed, depending on what you're wearing and how you're groomed.

But that goes to show that anecdotal experience is just that.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Legendary DeMoNk@I on November 30, 2014, 04:46:18 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/darren-wilson-resigns-from-ferguson-police-force-020341784.html
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Speedpreacher on November 30, 2014, 05:56:32 pm
Yeah, I bet. If he's smart he'll disappear.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Mami on December 01, 2014, 09:05:16 pm
no wonder the cop was judged innocent so to speak.
(http://i.imgur.com/twHcd1b.png)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 02, 2014, 01:37:29 am
How about Brown buckling down and collapsing on his feet when Wilson shot him ? If he's slumped forward rather than charging head first, the scenario works just the same. And at the time, he has four bullet holes in his arm, explaining why he would be dropping on the ground.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Mami on December 02, 2014, 02:29:15 am
that still debunks the whole running away from the cop thing.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: GentleOne on December 02, 2014, 02:38:41 am
no wonder the cop was judged innocent so to speak.
I think a more careful reading of this is in order.

1 Pretty sure several witnesses mentioned that some shots missed which "could" still mean that Wilson fired as Brown was running away

2. It says, "...several witnesses outline that conflict with each other and clearly state brown being shot in the back when no gunshot wounds are in the back or the front of his center mass." The key word here is "center mass." I haven't looked at the autopsies yet and doubt I'll have the time, but if you do, see if any sources state anything about bullets entering his body from the back excluding his center mass

3. When I first saw the picture, I was almost left with the impression that the bullets were fired from somewhere in the range of 6 feet away. When you have the time, look up the distances from where the autopsies say the bullets were likely fired.

4. One of the scenarios (bottom right corner) says that the trajectories shown in the images would match even if Wilson had been firing from the ground. I'd like to know how exactly that's possible?

5. I recall reading one of Johnson's statements which mentioned that, 'Big Mike, was holding one hand higher than the other and kind of stubble-hobbled toward Wilson just before Wilson started firing again.'

6. Falling forward when shot while standing still is possible. I believe the assumption that the body moves in the direction the bullet entered has been discredited if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 02, 2014, 02:47:35 am
that still debunks the whole running away from the cop thing.
But most of the first witness reports said that the first shots were done up close from the car, then Brown ran away, then Wilson came out of the car and told him to stop, then Brown turned around holding his hands up, and then Wilson shot him. The whole issue that came out of those reports was that Wilson shot Brown while brown had his hands up. This is still consistent with this report.
This image only focuses on the 3 fatal shots, while ignoring the shots in the arm. It should be easy to determine if those bullets hit the arm while the arm was raised, with the palm turned toward Wilson. If the first shots hit him while he had his hands up, then it doesn't even matter that the fatal shots hit him from the top.

And, the last few reports about the ruling say "Wilson's version is consistent with witness reports" but this only a half truth : there were witness reports that were saying one things and other reports that were saying the opposite. Saying Wilson's version is consistent with witness reports is only taking into account a part of those reports, and ignoring all the others that disagree. When you do something like that, you can take anything and say "it's consistent with witness reports", as long as you have contradicting reports and you pick only the ones that fit your version.

Quote
3. When I first saw the picture, I was almost left with the impression that the bullets were fired from somewhere in the range of 6 feet away. When you have the time, look up the distances from where the autopsies say the bullets were likely fired.
There was a whole issue about that, the police said Wilson shot while Brown was at so and so distance, and that distance was the limit from which it could be considered self defense, but the pictures of the actual scene showed brown's body was much further away from the police car, far beyond that limit.
Quote
4. One of the scenarios (bottom right corner) says that the trajectories shown in the images would match even if Wilson had been firing from the ground. I'd like to know how exactly that's possible?
That one goes with the drawing of Wilson's body being lying face down on the ground. It's assuming that Brown was lying down and Wilson crouched to shoot. Which is retarded since no one even claimed that Brown was lying down, just that he was tumbling forward because he just got shot in the arm. But that version is completely consistent with the autopsy report, so of course they're... not showing it.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on December 03, 2014, 11:18:41 am
considering that the car and the death happened so far apart if anything this just confirms that at some point brown ran away.

(http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/canfield-map-4-with-witness-locations.jpg)



But fear not, Ferguson cops have decided that since someone was shot while unarmed someone needs to get arrested, they are pressing charges against Brown's stepfather.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/02/police-consider-charging-michael-brown-stepfather/19777847/
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: The Aboriginal One on December 03, 2014, 11:41:09 am
Ah, hello.

Okay, this is ridiculous in my personal opinion. This is Brown's Stepfather. Of course he is going to be angry about the results of the case, and of course he is prone to be irrational about it. If I was this angry about my son not getting retribution of any kind, I would speak out of my mind, as well.

The other hand, however, is that he did say those words. Those words are also recorded. He knows the uproar that surrounds him, and he knows where he lives. By no means would you say a thing like that if you did not actually want to incite a riot.

The city will investigate, but for the sake of civility they drop the case...

However, a man in Ferguson did get charged for bleeding on their uniforms after they beat him, so...
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 03, 2014, 02:58:42 pm
But fear not, Ferguson cops have decided that since someone was shot while unarmed someone needs to get arrested, they are pressing charges against Brown's stepfather.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/02/police-consider-charging-michael-brown-stepfather/19777847/
Quote
CNN reports that police are trying to determine whether Brown's stepfather, Louis Head, was attempting to incite a riot on Nov. 24 when he screamed "Burn this ---- down" to a crowd of protesters after St. Louis County prosecutor Robert McCulloch announced the grand jury's decision.
good, he should be arrested
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on December 03, 2014, 08:15:28 pm
no wonder the cop was judged innocent so to speak.
http://i.imgur.com/twHcd1b.png
Would now be a bad time to say that one of the people assisting in the autopsy and who gave testimony in the hearing about the same is a fraud and a con artist with no medical degree? (http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/health/ferguson-michael-brown-pathologist-credentials/)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: The Aboriginal One on December 04, 2014, 04:19:14 am
This is another case of "If you think you have all the answers, we will change the questions:"

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/protests-erupt-after-cop-eric-garner-chokehold-death-not-indicted-n261136

The cop that choked a person to death on camera, the entire thing filmed, will not be indicted.

Case in note:


This is confusing, the police officer can be identified as performing the chokehold on Garner, it was on camera. And the autopsy reports show that his cause of death is indeed the chokehold.

This... This is outrageous.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on December 04, 2014, 04:30:12 am
motherfuckers
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Alpaca-San on December 04, 2014, 05:07:13 am
What good is rallying for police body cameras when an officer can get away with murdering someone. On camera.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on December 04, 2014, 05:11:13 am
Someone I USED to respect just  told me if the guy had a job and had been at work it never would have happened AND the reason he died was because he was so fat.  Seriously, some of the people here are stuck in the 1950's.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on December 04, 2014, 05:14:17 am
im not sure how anybody could justify eric garners situation.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Alpaca-San on December 04, 2014, 05:24:31 am
It's more outrageous than the Brown case because the evidence wasn't mostly "he said, she said". It was on camera for craps sake!
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: UrbaneVirtuoso on December 04, 2014, 05:26:09 am
Not enough fucking evidence? Wow, this is wrong. Let the protesters come in serious droves.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on December 04, 2014, 05:27:57 am
Meanwhile, in WhiteJuxtaposition-land.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/28/knoxville-cop-fired-immediately-after-photos-show-brutal-choking-of-student/
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: The Aboriginal One on December 04, 2014, 06:18:23 am
The only thing I will say to this is good for them. This is a case of excessive force and the victim didn't deserve it.

I do not know if there's a history of police brutality in that county, and a quick google search is lacking of it, so I say good show.

I am not going to compare this story with similar stories simply because this is another state, let alone another police force. Sure, this is different because the victim is white vice black, it's different because the police stopped his force once physical signs of duress occurred, and this is different because the police officer was punished for his action, but to me those are coincidences because of the change of venue and lack of current history.

tl;dr: I can't and wont say "this is racist" because it's like comparing apples to oranges.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Mami on December 04, 2014, 06:42:48 pm
This is another case of "If you think you have all the answers, we will change the questions:"

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/protests-erupt-after-cop-eric-garner-chokehold-death-not-indicted-n261136

The cop that choked a person to death on camera, the entire thing filmed, will not be indicted.

Case in note:

  • The victim was being detained for allegedly selling loose cigarettes
  • The cause of death was a back chokehold, which is not authorized to do
  • The police performed the move because he was resisting arrest, however, the video posted showed no real signs of physical aggression.
  • Along with the person who performed the chokehold, 3 more people were used to subdue him
  • He repeatedly told the police that he cannot breathe

This is confusing, the police officer can be identified as performing the chokehold on Garner, it was on camera. And the autopsy reports show that his cause of death is indeed the chokehold.

This... This is outrageous.


can't even play devil's advocate on that one.

Someone I USED to respect just  told me if the guy had a job and had been at work it never would have happened AND the reason he died was because he was so fat.  Seriously, some of the people here are stuck in the 1950's.
you should have told him that if the guy had been white maybe that would not have happened either; maybe he would have realized how bigoted eh sounded and gained your respect back.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 04, 2014, 07:31:58 pm
they went to grab his arm and he pulled away. he resisted arrest. i don't think he should've died, but with 31 previous arrests he should've known better. sorry
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DJ_HANNIBALROYCE on December 04, 2014, 07:35:15 pm
they went to grab his arm and he pulled away. he resisted arrest. i don't think he should've died, but with 31 previous arrests he should've known better. sorry

wow. really...smh. this statement is just sad. #blacklivesmatter
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 04, 2014, 07:40:39 pm
can you elaborate instead of posting a fucking hashtag like it matters here
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on December 04, 2014, 08:21:43 pm
they went to grab his arm and he pulled away. he resisted arrest. i don't think he should've died, but with 31 previous arrests he should've known better. sorry
that you could dismiss this as just "well, that silly black criminal didnt learn his lesson for petty crimes, now hes dead. bad luck for him -shrugs-"  is kind of disheartening.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Mami on December 04, 2014, 08:22:25 pm
killing him was overkill.
can you elaborate instead of posting a fucking hashtag like it matters here
the post kind of sounds like "she was wearing a miniskirt on a lonely street, should have known better".
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on December 04, 2014, 08:23:24 pm
more than overkill, more like a heinous cold blooded murder. killing people isnt part of their job description of protecting and serving
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DJ_HANNIBALROYCE on December 04, 2014, 08:25:50 pm
can you elaborate instead of posting a fucking hashtag like it matters here
the post kind of sounds like "she was wearing a miniskirt on a lonely street, should have known better".

what she said. :)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on December 04, 2014, 08:33:07 pm
lol thats a he

also royce you should be ready to defend and explain your point rather than just piggybacking off a quote. it cheapens your argument and credibility to just post a hashtag and call someones argument sad
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on December 04, 2014, 09:11:43 pm
Titiln has a point. It's not what people want to hear and it's the unpopular thing to say given the results. But if you're going to resist arrest, I think police has the right to get physical.

What they did wrong was use an illegal maneuver which resulted in yet another senseless murder. It was repulsive, unnecessary, and the officer involved should be forced to resign and face substantial prison time. But it's already been established that it won't happen, what a joke.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DJ_HANNIBALROYCE on December 04, 2014, 09:17:06 pm
sorry. being African American and in NYC..to read that ...i was just shocked. it was wrong to call it sad tho. my apologizes but, I'm just sensitive about this subject.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 04, 2014, 09:25:33 pm
the post kind of sounds like "she was wearing a miniskirt on a lonely street, should have known better".
"let me resist arrest" isn't anywhere close to "let me wear what i want". one of them is a crime, the other one isn't. that's not really a fair comparison. he had plenty of experience with arrests in the past. he should've known that resisting wasn't going to help matters at all. i really don't think he should've died, it's unfortunate, but i can't side against the police on this one. i don't think they meant to kill him, they wanted to take down someone that was resisting arrest. the garner family does have a huge civil case because medical care was delayed, however

What they did wrong was use an illegal maneuver
i've read the chokehold wasn't illegal, but it is against nypd policy. i don't really know though
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: The Simplistic Fubini on December 04, 2014, 09:33:28 pm
I see it the other way around, if the guy survived being arrested 30 times before you'd think he acted similarly and the cops knew how to handle him.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 04, 2014, 09:40:52 pm
"Resisting arrest"... He wasn't fighting them off, swinging punches or running away. The first officer is trying to grab his arms, Garner pulls his arms out and waves them so the officer can't grab him, but he doesn't even move - meanwhile, the other officer sneaks behind him and strangles him to death where he stands. If Garner had been fighting off and shoving the cops and making big steps to push them away, maybe it would've made sense to use force to restrain him, but not even that, it's like they were simply talking and this guy just comes and murders him. If you're going to sneak up behind him, just directly cuff him, don't strangle him to death.
Not immediately obeying your every order isn't the go sign for you to commit murder. Authority doesn't work that way. You have to justify the use of force, especially if it's something like a chokehold that your department tells you not to use. ESPECIALLY if it leads to death.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on December 04, 2014, 09:43:03 pm
theres like a million better ways to "take someone down" then dogpiling and chokeholding a man screaming he cant breath. i dont see how you can side with the cops on this one.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on December 04, 2014, 09:47:24 pm
And according to his last words moments before he was killed, this cop (or similar cops) had been harassing him before. It's perfectly reasonable to have an instinctual reaction to pull away.

I'm 100% positive if he KNEW pulling his hand away would result in him being strangled to death in the street, he wouldn't have done it.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: The Aboriginal One on December 04, 2014, 10:38:34 pm
i've read the chokehold wasn't illegal, but it is against nypd policy. i don't really know though

What's the difference between illegality and going against policies pertaining to law enforcement?

Now, this is my mentality on the subject. I agree, he should have complied with the authority, especially with his history with them, especially with his claims that all they want to do is harass him, again his words, not mine.

But your post kinda implies that he deserved to die because he resisted arrest after mouthing off despite the fact that you thought he shouldn't have died, because we all know that dying while being subdued is a low-occurring case..

I am not saying that I believe you meant it, but it can get spun that way.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Mami on December 05, 2014, 12:51:16 am
"Resisting arrest"... He wasn't fighting them off, swinging punches or running away. The first officer is trying to grab his arms, Garner pulls his arms out and waves them so the officer can't grab him, but he doesn't even move - meanwhile, the other officer sneaks behind him and strangles him to death where he stands. If Garner had been fighting off and shoving the cops and making big steps to push them away, maybe it would've made sense to use force to restrain him, but not even that, it's like they were simply talking and this guy just comes and murders him. If you're going to sneak up behind him, just directly cuff him, don't strangle him to death.
Not immediately obeying your every order isn't the go sign for you to commit murder. Authority doesn't work that way. You have to justify the use of force, especially if it's something like a chokehold that your department tells you not to use. ESPECIALLY if it leads to death.
I am envious pf your country because in mine doing something like saying "fuck! why am I getting arrested" is considered resisting arrest becasue you used the word fuck... and yeah, one person in my country recently got beat up by a cop because of that.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 05, 2014, 01:43:59 am
i don't think he deserved death over selling loose cigarrettes, but if he didn't resist arrest he'd probably be alive now. that's how it is

"Resisting arrest"
he was technically resisting arrest. not at the level in which he was attacking the cops or flat out escaping, but he was resisting arrest, enough to make it count as such. police in some countries are extremely sensitive about this.
I'm 100% positive if he KNEW pulling his hand away would result in him being strangled to death in the street, he wouldn't have done it.
i'm pretty sure he knew (like most people do) that resisting from arrest in any shape or form is not going to improve the situation at all. it's not going to make the cops go "oh you know what you're right, we shouldn't arrest you, honestly we're being ridiculous. sorry for the trouble". complain in the courtroom. complaining as it's happening is not going to help at all, it's only going to make it worse for you
What's the difference between illegality and going against policies pertaining to law enforcement?
as far as i can tell one is punishable in court and the other will get you reprimanded or fired. it's still something he shouldn't have done according to the rules he's supposed to follow, but saying it's an illegal chokehold is wrong if what i read is right. i've also read some people say it wasn't a choke hold, it was a "submission hold" but fuck if i know what it really is
http://nypost.com/2014/07/22/bratton-all-cops-will-be-re-trained-in-use-of-force/ said:
NYPD probers “are trying to determine whether it was technically “a chokehold or a submission hold,” an important distinction, because chokeholds are specifically barred under department guidelines, a source said.
NYPD probers “are trying to determine whether it was technically “a chokehold or a submission hold” put on Garner — an important distinction, because chokeholds are specifically barred under department guidelines, a source said.
The rules don’t refer to “submission holds,” which include headlocks, a common practice by city cops.
“That’s something that’s in play,’’ the source said. “If you look at the video, the officer has one arm around his neck and the other arm is hooked underneath Garner’s arm. Does this meet the criteria of a chokehold?”

i think it's bullshit that what he was doing is illegal in the first place.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/12/mcquillan-the-real-lesson-from-eric-garners-death/
Quote
In January 2014, tough new penalties for selling untaxed cigarettes took effect in New York City. In July, emboldened by the new law, the city’s highest-ranking uniformed cop, Philip Banks, issued an order to crack down on loosie sales days before Garner died.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 05, 2014, 02:00:28 am
i'm pretty sure he knew (like most people do) that resisting from arrest in any shape or form is not going to improve the situation at all. it's not going to make the cops go "oh you know what you're right, we shouldn't arrest you, honestly we're being ridiculous. sorry for the trouble". complain in the courtroom. complaining as it's happening is not going to help at all, it's only going to make it worse for you
But at the same time, no one naturally just lets their freedom of movement taken away, it's mostly "permanent victims" or people who have extensive knowledge on rights, police forces and legal stuff who will know to let it go. If you get your hands grabbed, of course you'll pull out at least by reflex unless you can fully rationalize it and think through your options. That's why it shouldn't be considered resisting arrest when it's a very soft reaction like that.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on December 05, 2014, 02:00:54 am
They murdered him. They took a guy who wasn't doing anything worth arresting him for, put him in a fucking headlock, ignored that he was saying "I can't breath" over and over again, killed him, handcuffed his corpse, and then kept talking to his body for 7 minutes to try to trick the people who were filming it into thinking that they didn't just murder him in front of witnesses. People should be fired and charged for this.

With Michael Brown, he attacked a police officer. Legally, they can shoot and kill you for that. There was doubt in that case. This was just disgusting.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 05, 2014, 02:02:20 am
With Michael Brown, he attacked a police officer.
He said, she said.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on December 05, 2014, 02:04:11 am
Evidence said.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 05, 2014, 02:05:33 am
Evidence presented by the police, contradicting other evidence, following blatant lies in public police reports. So he said, she said.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on December 05, 2014, 02:06:44 am
What evidence that Michael Brown attacked Darren Wilson contradicted with other evidence?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 05, 2014, 02:10:57 am
The distance between the car and the body that was like three times that given in the public announcement by the police, where the latter just happened to be the maximum distance where a cop could start considering that he was in danger (not counting firearms of course) and defend himself with force.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: GentleOne on December 05, 2014, 02:21:02 am
Thought I'd mention that it's illegal to choke someone in Brooklyn, and I wouldn't doubt that it is in Staten Island, NYC in general, and across the U.S.
Not sure what the policy is regarding the maneuver when making an arrest, but about resisting and Garner mentioning harassment, the NYPD has a pretty bad reputation for that which brings me back to this pretty famous video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rWtDMPaRD8

Potential harassment and subsequent frustration can definitely lead to someone resisting.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on December 05, 2014, 02:24:41 am
What evidence that Michael Brown attacked Darren Wilson contradicted with other evidence?

(http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/canfield-map-4-with-witness-locations.jpg)

Hes not running at the car if he is at the end of the street.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on December 05, 2014, 02:25:00 am
The distance between the car and the body that was like three times that given in the public announcement by the police, where the latter just happened to be the maximum distance where a cop could start considering that he was in danger (not counting firearms of course) and defend himself with force.

That was after Michael Brown attacked him. Michael Brown attacked Wilson while he was in the car, there was a struggle with Wilson's gun where Michael Brown got shot but not fatally. There is evidence that proved that happened.

What is in doubt is what happened after that. Where Michael Brown walked away from the car and then turned back around. Wilson says he was rushing back towards the car and ignoring his orders to stop. Some witnesses said that Brown was putting his hands up in surrender. Legally though, it doesn't matter after the initial attack. A police officer can legally justify murder after being attacked in most cases. Even if he shot him in the back, which he didn't. If anything, the law and the power of our police force should be questioned after these cases.

Lemme clarify how I feel a bit though. I'll use some major cases as examples. Morally...

Casey Anthony should be in jail. She at worst murdered her child and at best neglected her on a criminal level. And then either she, or she and her dad, tried to cover up the childs death and "move on". Legally, because of the case the prosecutors put on, and because of how the defense handled it, the not guilty was justified. Because they put doubt on how Caylee Anthony died and whether her father was involved. The prosecution couldn't prove anything.

Trayvon Martin should be alive or George Zimmerman should be in jail. There was no need for Zimmerman to approach Trayvon and for it to escalate to that. During the trial though, as soon as they had a witness say that Trayvon was ontop of Zimmerman, the case was over. Since there was no evidence of who physically started the fight. That's how our self defense laws work. Because of that, the outcome of the trial makes sense.

It is hard to emotionally take a side on these things. Michael Brown shouldn't be dead. Darren Wilson shouldn't have been allowed to shoot him to death over something so insignificant and not be charged. Legally, he is allowed to.

Edit: Made a HUGE change in one of my statements, Michael Brown should still be alive and it's an injustice that he's dead regardless of the reason why he was shot dead. I made a typo.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 05, 2014, 03:01:04 am
Welcome to a country where the law violates basic human rights. That's the whole point of the "hands up, don't shoot" protests. Just because the law says it doesn't make it okay, and normally when the jury sees shit like that they can always use their better judgement anyway. It's when they don't that no one gets the message that the law is due for an update. And it's only when they do it that people notice that the law simply evolves naturally. You know that there are retarded laws from over a century ago in random states that say the weirdest shit, and no one cares about them until someone finally remembers to give it the boot. It wouldn't be okay if some cop decided to apply them just because the law says so.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on December 05, 2014, 03:08:37 am
I agree.

Also that's the entire point of my first post here. It's so different from the other cases in that I thought it was legally unjustifiable. Yet they still got away with murdering Eric Garner with no consequences. With video evidence of it. With the justification being "there's not enough evidence to charge".
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: GentleOne on December 05, 2014, 03:21:09 am
Trayvon Martin should be alive or George Zimmerman should be in jail. There was no need for Zimmerman to approach Trayvon and for it to escalate to that. During the trial though, as soon as they had a witness say that Trayvon was ontop of Zimmerman, the case was over. Since there was no evidence of who physically started the fight. That's how our self defense laws work. Because of that, the outcome of the trial makes sense.
If you were to poll black forumgoers or black people(men) in general, I'd wager that 100% have been told something akin to, 'being violent toward cops, especially as a colored person, is tantamount to committing suicide.' A method that seems all too suspicious to me whenever a black person gets killed, is the allegation that, 'He threatened me; he was violent toward me; etcetra,' when blacks from all walks of life tend to be advised to try to deal with officers with an err of extreme caution, especially considering how numerous these killings - then acquittals - tend to be. 'He threatened me; he was violent toward me,' always seems to pop up when the black can never live to tell the tale.



Trayvon Case:
Trayvon Martin should be alive or George Zimmerman should be in jail. There was no need for Zimmerman to approach Trayvon and for it to escalate to that. During the trial though, as soon as they had a witness say that Trayvon was ontop of Zimmerman, the case was over. Since there was no evidence of who physically started the fight. That's how our self defense laws work. Because of that, the outcome of the trial makes sense.
Regarding Trayvon, let me outline what likely happened given that Trayvon had been to that neighborhood many times before and was on his way to his step-dad's house.
- During the 911 call Zimmerman said that he had been following Trayvon and that Trayvon had been ducking behind houses.
- That doesn't add up because Trayvon had been to that neighborhood many times before and his stepdad, whom he intended to visit, lived there.
- It's far more likely that Trayvon had realized Zimmerman was following him, feared for his life/got scared then started ducking behind houses to escape Zimmerman's view or else to confirm that he was indeed being followed - That's what I would have done
- After confirming that he was indeed being followed Trayvon would have panicked
- He was in a neighborhood he belonged in and intended to visit his stepdad mind you, and was now being followed by someone he didn't know
- Trayvon wouldn't have known whether this stalker meant to kill him or harm him in some way.
- A common tactic amongst serial killers is to stalk their prey, if you will.
- The dispatcher already told Zimmerman to stop following the 17 year old boy and not to approach
- When Zimmerman approached, Trayvon would not have known what his intentions were
- again, Trayvon belonged in that neighborhood - When an unfamiliar face comes at you, after following you, especially when you're 17 and not a fully realized man, you don't know whether or not this person intends to kill/harm you and you may likely not want to take the chance. Again, some serial killers stalk you then kill you. You never KNOW!
- Trayvon already tried to hide and flee from Zimmerman and likely then attacked him in self defense. If someone followed me in my own neighborhood, I might have done the same. I'm not gonna wait on someone to harm me in my own neighborhood, again, where I belong!
- The onus is on Zimmerman for following him when told not to. He should have gotten manslaughter. At the very least, after an ass kicking, he would have been alive.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 05, 2014, 03:32:26 am
- The dispatcher already told Zimmerman to stop following the 17 year old boy and not to approach
- The onus is on Zimmerman for following him when told not to.
Quote
When the dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following the teen, he replies, "Yeah."

"We don't need you to do that," the dispatcher says. Zimmerman replies, "OK."
doesn't sound like STOP FOLLOWING HIM THIS IS AN ORDER
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: GentleOne on December 05, 2014, 03:39:29 am
You're right, it isn't explicit.

But that still does not rebut the rest of the outline. Zimmerman deserved manslaughter. I'm still sickened by what happened given the details of the case. When I have a free weekend, I'm sitting down to watch that trial because the only way I think Zimmerman got off with zero convictions is because the prosecution must have handled it poorly. The driving point is precisely that Trayvon's step-dad lived there, Trayvon intended to visit him on that day, and that Trayvon after realizing he was being followed as mentioned by his phone call to his friend, feared for his life.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on December 05, 2014, 03:45:08 am
I guarantee you the reason he's free is because of the witness that claimed Trayvon was ontop of Zimmerman.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 05, 2014, 03:55:58 am
You're right, it isn't explicit.
it wasn't an order at all
Quote
“Are you following him?” the operator for the Sanford police’s non-emergency line asks Zimmerman. “Yeah,” he says. The dispatcher on the phone tells him: “We don’t need you to do that.”

Who the aggressor was that fateful night is the central — and most unanswerable — question of the case. Those who fault Zimmerman have latched on to this back-and-forth with Sean Noffke, the operator, as proof that Zimmerman defied a direct police order.

Not so. Noffke testified on the first day of the jury trial that it is dispatchers’ policy not to give orders to callers. “We’re directly liable if we give a direct order,” he explained. “We always try to give general basic . . . not commands, just suggestions.” So, “We don’t need you to do that” is different than a more direct “Don’t do that.”

Under cross-examination, Noffke added more context to his “suggestion” when asked whether his requests for updates on what Martin was doing encouraged Zimmerman to follow the unarmed 17-year-old. “It’s best to avoid any kind of confrontation, to just get away from the situation,” Noffke said.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: GentleOne on December 05, 2014, 03:56:51 am
I guarantee you the reason he's free is because of the witness that claimed Trayvon was ontop of Zimmerman.
I understand that, but the prosecution should have been able to drive home the point that even if Trayvon had been on top of him, Trayvon would reasonably have done so while intending to defend himself because Zimmerman was clearly following him as Trayvon mentioned in the phone call to his friend.

Take these scenarios:
- A person follows you in a city for about half an hour and you know they're following you. You duck behind buildings and that person keeps tailing you. You shoot that stranger precisely because you fear for your life and have no idea why that person has been following you. A jury could reasonably find you not guilty precisely because that person was following you making you fear for your life.

- A person follows you for 20 minutes and you know they're following you. You hide behind a pillar and the pursuit continues. You eventually stand off with then fight the the person following you. If you're arrested and charged with assault you could reasonably be acquitted because the person was following you making you fear for your life.

The added element that makes Trayvon's case so bad is that, He was visiting his step-dad who lived there, Trayvon was extremely familiar with the neighborhood and had been there many times before, to which I'm like come on!
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on December 05, 2014, 05:39:46 am
Protests continue nationwide (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/outrage-second-day-protests-continues-over-eric-garner-decision-n262011); the Brooklyn Bridge was completely shut down at one point. Here are some pics (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/04/protesters-nyc-chokehold_n_6273174.html).
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Mami on December 05, 2014, 05:43:28 am
I guarantee you the reason he's free is because of the witness that claimed Trayvon was ontop of Zimmerman.
I understand that, but the prosecution should have been able to drive home the point that even if Trayvon had been on top of him, Trayvon would reasonably have done so while intending to defend himself because Zimmerman was clearly following him as Trayvon mentioned in the phone call to his friend.

Take these scenarios:
- A person follows you in a city for about half an hour and you know they're following you. You duck behind buildings and that person keeps tailing you. You shoot that stranger precisely because you fear for your life and have no idea why that person has been following you. A jury could reasonably find you not guilty precisely because that person was following you making you fear for your life.

- A person follows you for 20 minutes and you know they're following you. You hide behind a pillar and the pursuit continues. You eventually stand off with then fight the the person following you. If you're arrested and charged with assault you could reasonably be acquitted because the person was following you making you fear for your life.

The added element that makes Trayvon's case so bad is that, He was visiting his step-dad who lived there, Trayvon was extremely familiar with the neighborhood and had been there many times before, to which I'm like come on!

you know I live in a country where that is very likely to happen/has already happened to me and I run the fuck out if I suspect someone is following me; first step is just to cahgne from my suual walk routes, if the person is still following me I run fast, that either makes it really obvious that the other person is following me or the person is just  left behind.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on December 05, 2014, 09:48:50 pm
This happened in 2013, but has been making the rounds of social media lately

"Ethan, who had Down syndrome, enjoyed the film so much that he decided to go back to his seat for a second showing while his aide went to get the car to take them home. When he refused to buy another $12 ticket, off-duty police moonlighting as security guards allegedly tackled him in an attempt to eject him from his seat.

An hour later, the young man was dead from "asphyxiation by homicide," according to the medical examiner's report.

The case went to a grand jury, which declined to indict the three sheriff's officers involved in the Jan. 12 incident, according to the Washington Post.

Saylor said when the mall officers pulled Ethan from his seat he panicked and then screamed for his mother.

When the aide, whom Saylor would not identify, returned to witness the police asking Ethan to buy a ticket or leave, she told them he didn't like to be touched and would "freak out." The family alleges officers ignored her pleas as Ethan was handcuffed and dropped to the floor, then stopped breathing."

 source  (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/syndrome-man-movies-ends-morgue/story?id=20046376)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Pre-Teen Music Maker on December 05, 2014, 11:29:51 pm
more than overkill, more like a heinous cold blooded murder. killing people isnt part of their job description of protecting and serving

Police nowadays don't protect and serve, they neglect and swerve.

They enforce laws--that's it.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: RyoSazaki on December 07, 2014, 06:51:22 pm
To put this in perspective for anyone who thinks that officers automatically act rationally, understand that most police forces are made up of people who didn't necessarily do very well in school. When you actually go into police stations, especially in densely populated areas, this fact becomes all the more clear, minus the fact that those stations and the conditions officers have to work in while there tend to be ridiculously shitty.

Anyway, I guess that some people assume that officers are automatically right because they're a group? Tea Partiers are also a widespread group and in Nazi Germany people were educated about what to believe was good and were told that the people getting arrested by their officers were detained on the basis of their crimes when that wasn't true. Much of the time American police forces are made up of people who, when given an ounce of power, go way overboard.

Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Pre-Teen Music Maker on December 08, 2014, 12:19:57 am
To put this in perspective for anyone who thinks that officers automatically act rationally, understand that most police forces are made up of people who didn't necessarily do very well in school.

 Much of the time American police forces are made up of people who, when given an ounce of power, go way overboard.



+1
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Jango Hakamichi on December 08, 2014, 12:28:13 am
I like how you only +1'ed part of the post and left out the part about cops being comparable to Nazis.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go practice my Hitler walk.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: RyoSazaki on December 08, 2014, 01:21:55 am
and left out the part about cops being comparable to Nazis.
Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go practice my Hitler walk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPxBjIuNIto
Not sure whether this is an innocent misinterpretation or a deliberate misrepresentation.
Just to clarify, I was providing examples for why those who presume that police officers are innocent, or believe that people in groups are always right, need to understand that the same thought process was applied by those who "innocently" believed that Nazi officers were arresting people because they had broken laws. Before you argue, know that in the initial phases of the Final Solution some Jews surrendered their own kind presuming that the authorities were detaining and "questioning" them for having committed crimes. Long story short, don't presume that the officers are automatically right to use such overwhelming/deadly force.

V
Amen Xan. I agree.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Xan on December 08, 2014, 01:28:26 am
Much of the time American police forces are made up of people who, when given an ounce of power, go way overboard.
The same applies to nearly anybody in any position of power. Power goes to peoples' heads, whether they were reasonable beforehand or not. It's human nature, and it's far more broad than is being stated here.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on December 09, 2014, 06:31:53 pm
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-florida-police-shooting-20141208-story.html

hands up and surrounded by religious leaders

shot because he was acting furtive
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Alpaca-San on December 09, 2014, 07:56:33 pm
I actually did not know what furtive meant so upon looking it up
* done in a quiet and secret way to avoid being noticed
* done by stealth
* obtained underhandedly
....You know what forget it the guy ain't getting charged anyways
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on December 09, 2014, 08:14:17 pm
hands up and surrounded by religious leaders

shot because he was acting furtive

You misread the article. The sheriff holding the press conference was surrounded by religious leaders. The guy who was shot was in a stolen vehicle and is still alive.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 09, 2014, 11:24:21 pm
don't let the facts get in the way of my outrage
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on December 10, 2014, 01:03:20 am
hands up and surrounded by religious leaders

shot because he was acting furtive

You misread the article. The sheriff holding the press conference was surrounded by religious leaders. The guy who was shot was in a stolen vehicle and is still alive.
you are right, my bad!
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on December 15, 2014, 06:56:48 pm
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/12/police-aggressively-questioned-girlfriend-of-african-american-man-gunned-down-by-cop-in-walmart/


Gunned down for carrying a Toy gun.
In a walmart.
While carrying it to the checkout to buy it.
In an open carry state.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on December 15, 2014, 07:22:08 pm
And it was protested soon after:


“We came here armed. We are proponents of open-carry. This case is clearly a case related to open carry. Maybe John Crawford wasn’t carrying a real firearm but he was carrying what seemed to be a real firearm, and the over-reaction of the police in this instance is completely outrageous,” Virgil Vadura told WDTN.

Source  (http://rt.com/usa/193656-guns-walmart-crawford-shooting/)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Walt on December 15, 2014, 07:53:03 pm
America's "how much shooting another human being can we get away with" social experiment sure is delivering some interesting results.

I, for one, am absolutely stoked not being a part of it.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 15, 2014, 07:55:15 pm
Yeah, you're not Black, no worry.
Oh ? If the gun lobby actually joins in this fight, maybe some surprises will happen...
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Mami on December 15, 2014, 08:39:27 pm
Yeah, you're not Black, no worry.

Quote
a cop just killed my GTA5 character even though he's white. anyone else experiencing this bug?

Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 15, 2014, 08:43:44 pm
making this issue about race guarantees it will get nowhere
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: UrbaneVirtuoso on December 15, 2014, 08:54:45 pm
I'm not even surprised anymore -- what a way to speak boundaries at this point.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Umezono on December 15, 2014, 09:05:13 pm
making this issue about race guarantees it will get nowhere
can you explain to me how this is not a race issue. im being totally sincere.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 15, 2014, 09:27:08 pm
It may be one, but talking about it as one is guaranteed to get nowhere. If you want to solve the issue, you have to address the underlying problem - that the cops can kill people just because they're afraid, then it turns out they were wrong and the guy really wasn't a threat at all, and yet they get away with murder. Focusing on the race issue is a sure fire way for this to never get anywhere. It's happened before, several times.

I myself don't think it's some open racism, they didn't necessarily think "he's Black, I can shoot him", but it's a social thing, they were more scared of the guy because he was Black, than they would have been if he had been white. Expectations built by social habits. Even without being racist, there's a big chance you're going to react to a random Black guy differently than you would to a random white guy.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Astro! on December 17, 2014, 02:52:27 am
But all of the victims in these news stories have been black?

How is this not a race issue?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on December 17, 2014, 03:07:50 am
Nope, it's a race issue. In an oppressive country where these atrocities continuously happen to minorities being profiled with such consistency and regularity that it becomes a stereotype of american law enforcement, it absolutely is a race issue. Attempting to ignore the factor of race in situations where cops think less of an individual and thus feel it acceptable to murder him/her in cold blood is how we get nowhere. Progression reaches a screeching halt when people are okay with being willfully naive. Of course there are other factors but I fail to see how anyone could rationally argue that any (or at the very least a majority) of these issues are not "race issues".

It's very easy to try to write off the "race issue" because it's uncomfortable to talk about. Even to Byakko's point, if there are different social stigma surrounding those of different races due to a society's expectations that are leading to their deaths, that's about the definition of a race issue. I personally think it is very important for people of all races to become more comfortable incorporating the issue of race into the conversations where it applies, as running from it or acting as if it doesn't exist makes progressing as a society impossible.

Tl;dr: It is a race issue. Deal with it.
No I mean LITERALLY help us deal with it. We need support, not apathy.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bizarro Santamorphman on December 17, 2014, 03:43:50 am
So uh it turns out the key witness in the trial has a history of mental illness, racism, and lying to the police, (http://www.mediaite.com/online/report-key-witness-in-darren-wilson-case-has-history-of-lying-to-police/) and federal investigators were suspicious of her account.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 17, 2014, 04:17:26 am
black people aren't the only ones on the receiving end of police brutality. go look up some other cases. these took me a couple minutes on google
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/28/james-boyd-shooting_n_5052370.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/us/california-homeless-beating-verdict/
http://abcnews.go.com/US/chicago-police-found-guilty-covering-bartender-beating/story?id=17716840
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/nypd-kevin-maloney-testifies-officer-richard-kern-baton-michael-mineo-article-1.193731

making this an issue about race only divides efforts to bring some kind of solution to the problem. saying this is just cops being racist is misguided and disregards victims of other races
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on December 17, 2014, 04:35:20 am
So if a klansmen stabs a black guy its all good because people of all races get stabbed

coo
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Just No Point on December 17, 2014, 04:36:55 am
cops are hate groups now?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on December 17, 2014, 04:40:57 am
Nope.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: GentleOne on December 17, 2014, 05:08:20 am
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty
cops are hate groups now?
While I totally understand how making this a racial issue may ultimately turn people off, I want to expand on Gritsmaster's point because I'm not sure many of us are grasping the seriousness of the issue. What Grits is saying, just as Byakko said, is that people are inclined to react to blacks differently from the way they would react to whites. You can find examples of similar cases that happen to whites, that doesn't change the fact that by and large these incidents happen predominantly to blacks to the point where our communities have come to view it as a regularity; are you trying to suggest that all of these people are just being illogical and biased?
For me, I've had to face a myriad of stereotypes because I'm black (as I mentioned in my examples before) without even posting about the amount of times persons whom I've spoken to have condescended to me and superimposed beliefs onto me stemming only from the fact that I'm black. Being presumed to be committing a crime, being presumed to be inclined toward violence, etc. gets annoying very fast, and constantly having to guard against certain actions because, "someone will think I have a gun" (that's a hypothetical), is crazy. For me, what really gets at me was having the cops called on me twice as I ran for trains because someone assumed I stole something; I can only imagine what could have happened to me if I had been shot simply because someone assumed I had committed a crime. Then I have to associate that with: "I shot this black guy because he threatened me; I shot this black guy because he was violent toward me; I shot this black guy because I thought he had a gun" -- with no indictments handed down. Then there's the Rodney King beating which.... I don't even want to talk about how fucking crazy that crap was and how racially charged it definitely was..
Again these videos really attest to the problem.
Bike Thief:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qMK-JSXawM
Vandalism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9odAuzz6kB0

Edit:
Personally, I find the Mike Brown shooting extremely disturbing. I personally cannot justify shooting at someone who punched me then ran off, even if that person did turn around and start at me. A gun is a lethal fucking weapon; that kid who punched me, --"punched me"--  didn't shoot me, didn't try to kill me, he "punched" me.... Really? I need to apply deadly force for something as silly as that?


@Titiln:
I was shocked that you said that Garner should not have resisted the cops, "especially" if he had been arrested several times before. I took it as though you meant to level a certain amount of blame on him. You need to understand that cops often harass people especially in NYC and LA; they have terrible reputations. Stop and Frisk became a humongous issue pertaining to harassment in NYC and one that divided communities (and boroughs) along racial lines. And just to let you know, you can be arrested simply for fitting a description.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on December 17, 2014, 05:11:06 am
Solving police brutality is a more realistic goal than solving racism, not that the latter should be ignored. One is an issue of preventing cops from becoming dangerously aggressive (possible given the right course of action); the other involves changing the psychology and mindstate of thousands upon thousands (you know what they say about old dogs and new tricks).

Though the two intertwine in this issue, treating people differently because of race is separate from the police being able to do whatever the fuck they please without suffering notable consequences. I'd like to lessen the threat of a cop being a potential murderer to all people.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 17, 2014, 05:38:20 am
So if a klansmen stabs a black guy its all good because people of all races get stabbed

coo
can you explain this fucking trainwreck of an analogy please

I took as though you meant to level a certain amount of blame on him.
but i was. what he was doing is illegal (which is bullshit, but that's another subject) and he resisted arrest. if he did neither of those things he'd be alive. of course it was the cops' actions that led to his death (be it because of the choking or because of his poor health), but it's silly to think he has zero amount of blame
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: GentleOne on December 17, 2014, 05:41:43 am
Ah. Okay. I understand where you're coming from a bit more now. I thought that you were excusing the cops' behaviour(on some level) for a second there.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on December 17, 2014, 06:03:41 am
So if a klansmen stabs a black guy its all good because people of all races get stabbed

coo
can you explain this fucking trainwreck of an analogy please

...do I really have to? While cops as a whole don't directly relate to hate groups (obviously), the concept of "it happens to everyone therefore it's not racist" is a rather obnoxious stance that gets taken a bit too frequently to avoid talking about it.

Niitris has it spot on, I think. Police brutality is definitely the bigger picture, but to pretend racism in non-existent in these instances is silly.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Xhominid on December 17, 2014, 09:08:37 am
black people aren't the only ones on the receiving end of police brutality. go look up some other cases. these took me a couple minutes on google
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/28/james-boyd-shooting_n_5052370.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/13/us/california-homeless-beating-verdict/
http://abcnews.go.com/US/chicago-police-found-guilty-covering-bartender-beating/story?id=17716840
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/nypd-kevin-maloney-testifies-officer-richard-kern-baton-michael-mineo-article-1.193731

making this an issue about race only divides efforts to bring some kind of solution to the problem. saying this is just cops being racist is misguided and disregards victims of other races

This. Reminds me of a story about how I got profiled because I looked like the perp. Just when I was gonna walk home because of that nonsense pissed off, A white guy who was at the playground I was at then told me about how he was profiled the same way.

These types of problems SEEM like race issues, but more of cops becoming over-suspicious and then immediately going with a "Shoot first, ask questions never" mentality.
Hell, I knew this was somewhat coming over how many times I've read and heard stories of cops shooting family pets just because, not even assessing if they are dangerous or not. It's only a matter of time before they disregard assessment with people.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: GentleOne on December 17, 2014, 10:13:56 am
This. Reminds me of a story about how I got profiled because I looked like the perp. Just when I was gonna walk home because of that nonsense pissed off, A white guy who was at the playground I was at then told me about how he was profiled the same way.
These types of problems SEEM like race issues, but more of cops becoming over-suspicious and then immediately going with a "Shoot first, ask questions never" mentality.
You are missing the point. Where incidents of that nature do occur outside of the black race they are FAR more common concerning the black race! Add to that getting shot when unarmed to have the defendant say, "He threatened me, he was violent toward me, etc." then being acquitted or going un-indicted specifically because of literal racial biases stemming from stereotypes, coupled with the [unarmed] black person not being alive to defend themselves.
In America people have a subconscious belief that "blacks commit crimes/blacks are violent/blacks steal/blacks are illogical/etc."

I've posted these videos and I'll post them again because they are very important. They highlight the veracity of the stereotypes blacks face by and large and the nature of the issue that innocent blacks have to face when they get profiled undeservedly. Pay attention to the differences between their reactions.
Bike Thief:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qMK-JSXawM
Vandalism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9odAuzz6kB0
And please, it really seems like you're selectively reading posts without considering the statistics that rebut your point.




Edit:
Some people tend to mention debatable statistics regarding the predominance of crimes being committed by blacks and often use that to explain(rationalize) their treatment and the reactions to them by police. Whether or not that is true these commenters fail to recognize that each black person is an individual and should be seen as such. If I have not committed a crime, I don't want to be presumed to be committing a crime and I don't want to be shot because certain very limited segments of my race carry guns, and where the person who eventually shoots me saying, 'I thought he had one... [a gun that is...].'
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on December 17, 2014, 11:12:42 am
http://www.pe.com/articles/ill-756475-fatally-appeared.html

Cops shot a subdued retarded man for breaking and entering even as the family that owned the house pleaded with them not to.

Bonus, a 69 year old man was able to calm him down and put him to sleep before the cops arrived and shot him for refusing to comply.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 17, 2014, 11:32:01 am
But was he Black ?? Man, you and your clickbaits !
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on December 17, 2014, 12:07:32 pm
I dont think race matters in police violence, its more easily seen in black people because cops are more often sure to think of them as a threat, but the main issue is that the cops seem to think its justifiable to shoot anyone that might become a threat.

This has also led to a lot of cops shooting puppies and dogs because "they might be a threat".

A man with mental issues that a 69 year old can calm down just by talking to is not exactly a threat that can only be stopped by shooting him several times until he dies.

( to clarify im not saying racism isnt an issue, im saying its a broader issue than just racism )

ALSO they didnt say in the article if he was black or white(or i missed it if they did )
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 17, 2014, 12:20:49 pm
Yeah, I'm just pulling your leg.
This shooting wasn't even because they thought he was a threat but likely because he refused to comply (since he was mentally retarded and the 69 y.o. guy could talk him to sleep, that's pretty obvious). There isn't even any mention of aggressive behavior, he just didn't obey the cop's every order so the cop killed him - enough to leave the front door riddled with bullet holes, too !
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 17, 2014, 03:43:06 pm
the concept of "it happens to everyone therefore it's not racist" is a rather obnoxious stance that gets taken a bit too frequently to avoid talking about it.
but that's the definition of something not being racist. if it happens to everybody regardless of their color it's not racist. if race wasn't a factor then it's not racist. if a klansman stabs a black dude it's because that's the point of the kkk so of course it's racist. if the kkk stabbed people regardless of color they wouldn't be racist. not that it would be right obviously, but it's not racist. bringing up the kkk makes your analogy dogshit

i don't know what the point of making this about race is, other than increasing racial tension and dividing everybody
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2L1zcRwPSg
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/canadian-pro-ferguson-rally-organizers-ask-whites-to-stay-in-background/article21781408/

how does any of this shit help. what's the endgame here. a law that says black people can't be shot by cops? ask potential cops "Do you hate the blacks" before they join the force, like that's going to do shit? the right approach is ending excessive police brutality as a whole, ignoring potential racism
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on December 17, 2014, 06:05:45 pm
Sorry, let me amend my quote:
the concept of "it happens to everyone therefore this specific incident is not racist" is a rather obnoxious stance that gets taken a bit too frequently to avoid talking about it.

I get what you're saying, I just adamantly disagree with a lot of it. The bigger, more fixable issue IS police brutality. However, the ongoing struggle for black people (or minorities in general) to be seen as equal is one that has been simultaneously being fought for hundreds of years. Although legally there's a limited amount you can do, bringing awareness to racial injustice is beyond important. When something like this happens and you just walk away like "nope, not racist", it's made worse.

It's possible to point out the injustices of racial profiling/violence and police brutality at the same time. Being opposed to talking about it doesn't help the issue at all. It never has.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Mami on December 17, 2014, 06:15:34 pm
if you fix all the little problems, eventualyl the big problems with dissapear as well.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 17, 2014, 06:59:21 pm
Addendum : if you try to fix the big problems and ignore the small problems that make up the big problems, you will fail and you'll get laughed at.

edit
... You know what, scratch that. Authorities killing whoever the fuck they want just because they didn't obey their every order or "resisted arrest" or because the police didn't understand what was going on, and then protecting itself because they're the authorities and they're the ones who decide, is a bigger problem than racism. I'm sorry but that's just how it is and nobody wants to admit it.
Although it's true that racism is much more "common ground" and much more ingrained in society. But people whose power and authority got to their head and won't admit it, that's a problem much more ancient and much stronger than racism.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on December 18, 2014, 12:15:40 am
"It is important for you to convey to the public that police officers pursue criminality, not color. Officers must have a reason to make contact with an individual. They must be able to explain later in court that they had either a reasonable suspicion or probable cause to believe the individual had committed or was about to commit an offense.

The fact is that more than 95 percent of police contacts are handled without rising above the level of dialog. This is because most people are cooperative and compliant. This is the way it should be, because it is unlawful to resist and or obstruct an officer, while in the performance of his/her duty.

If a person disagrees with a stop or an arrest, the place to argue the case vigorously is in a court of law, not on the street."

 source  (http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/articles/7526699-How-cops-can-help-citizens-better-understand-police-use-of-force/)

And

"The Lakota People’s Law Project strongly disagrees with Police Chief Karl Jegeris’s decision to deny the permit for Lakota people to participate in an Anti-Police Brutality March and Rally in Rapid City. The march, which is being organized by LPLP Attorney Chase Iron Eyes, Cody Hall and James Swan was slated for Friday at the Rushmore Plaza Civic Center, the same site where the Lakota Nation Invitational is being held."

"Police Chief Jegeris sent a letter to Hall, Swan, and Iron Eyes, stating that Hall’s permit request had been denied for “public safety reasons,” yet another unsubtle irony given that Jegeris will effectively disallow a protest that calls into question the tactics of his own department."

 Source  (http://lakotalawproject.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/rapid-city-police-deny-lakotas-right-to-peacefully-assemble/)


My opinion is that while real police brutality does exist and minorities are typically treated with more suspicion, police training shouldn't change.  I would hope that wearing a body camera wouldnt make any officer try to second guess or over analyze his training.  Going back to the Ohio WalMart case:

"When Ronald Ritchie called 911 from the aisles of a Walmart in western Ohio last month to report that a black man was “walking around with a gun in the store”, he said that shoppers were coming under direct threat.

“He’s, like, pointing it at people,” Ritchie told the dispatcher. Later that evening, after John Crawford III had been shot dead by one of the police officers who hurried to the scene in Beavercreek, Ritchie repeated to reporters: “He was pointing at people. Children walking by.”

 "Crawford, 22, turned out to be holding an unloaded BB air rifle that he had picked up from a store shelf. After Ritchie said Crawford appeared to be “trying to load” the gun, the 911 dispatcher relayed to an officer that it was believed the gunman “just put some bullets inside”.

 source  (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/07/ohio-black-man-killed-by-police-walmart-doubts-cast-witnesss-account)

 another source  (http://www.inquisitr.com/1464363/walmart-shooting-john-crawford-911/)

It seems to me the person calling in the false 911 call is the one accountable.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 18, 2014, 12:41:30 am
"It is important for you to convey to the public that police officers pursue criminality, not color. Officers must have a reason to make contact with an individual. They must be able to explain later in court that they had either a reasonable suspicion or probable cause to believe the individual had committed or was about to commit an offense.

The fact is that more than 95 percent of police contacts are handled without rising above the level of dialog. This is because most people are cooperative and compliant. This is the way it should be, because it is unlawful to resist and or obstruct an officer, while in the performance of his/her duty.

If a person disagrees with a stop or an arrest, the place to argue the case vigorously is in a court of law, not on the street."
Counter argument : stop and frisk. Instantly renders the above quote null and void since it's a lie. (yes, I know, stop and frisk is only in some particular place, but that changes nothing)
The onus isn't on the citizens, it's on the cops. The cops don't have to make citizens understand cops better, cops have to be the ones to understand citizens. Their authority doesn't mean they can become tyrants murdering anyone who doesn't listen to them.
Quote
It seems to me the person calling in the false 911 call is the one accountable.
The 911 calls are indeed often bullshit in those cases, but the cops still have to assess the situation by themselves without such massive prejudice. Was the BB gun visually recognizable as fake ? If not, the company that makes them should get sued for being criminally dangerous. If yes, then the cop should be sued for being a fucking moron and a murderer.
There's probably tons of 911 calls all the time in a single day, it's the police's job to filter them out and figure out which ones are legit and which ones are full of shit.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on December 18, 2014, 03:16:51 am
There's probably tons of 911 calls all the time in a single day, it's the police's job to filter them out and figure out which ones are legit and which ones are full of shit.

OK, you made me laugh.

:bow:
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: RyoSazaki on December 18, 2014, 05:46:14 am
I guess that sometimes you just don't know how someone will react to very simple actions



I think this video also adds a bit more perspective to the issue:



And in this case, imagine what would have happened if the Defendant had died and couldn't subsequently defend himself. I think it's dangerous to assume that one side will always be honest and aims to uphold justice:
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on December 18, 2014, 03:33:27 pm

"CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Heartless Felons gang gave its members orders to kill white police officers to avenge black lives taken by white police officers, including the Nov. 21 Tamir Rice shooting, officials said."


 yeah this will really help  (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_heartless_felons_gan.html)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: The Aboriginal One on December 18, 2014, 05:43:33 pm
It may be one, but talking about it as one is guaranteed to get nowhere. If you want to solve the issue, you have to address the underlying problem - that the cops can kill people just because they're afraid, then it turns out they were wrong and the guy really wasn't a threat at all, and yet they get away with murder. Focusing on the race issue is a sure fire way for this to never get anywhere. It's happened before, several times.

black people aren't the only ones on the receiving end of police brutality. go look up some other cases. these took me a couple minutes on google

So if a klansmen stabs a black guy its all good because people of all races get stabbed

coo

Sadly, the same can be said about not making it a race issue when people believe it is.

I agree with the tiger, if won't help if we make it a race issue. People will actively try to dismiss it for various reasons:


We as Americans need to make it an American issue if we want to stop this.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on December 18, 2014, 09:56:43 pm

"CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Heartless Felons gang gave its members orders to kill white police officers to avenge black lives taken by white police officers, including the Nov. 21 Tamir Rice shooting, officials said."


 yeah this will really help  (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/12/cleveland_heartless_felons_gan.html)
I don't really see the relevancy in pertinence to the discussion. Any protest movement has at least one faction of ignorant dickheads but they neither take away from peaceful protests, nor excuse cop behaviour. You might as well have posted black panther stuff.

What exactly are you trying to say here, I'm genuinely confused.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on December 18, 2014, 11:54:10 pm
The police in Cleveland are being warned they are targets for revenge killings.  This is probably going to make them even more apt to shoot first and possibly cause more innocents to die.  East Cleveland is ugly during the best of times.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Gritsmaster on December 19, 2014, 12:13:40 am
Ah, now I got you. God, this is all fucked.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on December 19, 2014, 03:44:25 pm
nypd cops caught on camera beating up already cuffed 12 year old.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nypd-plainclothes-officer-hits-youth-cuffed-article-1.2050762
See its improving, no one shot him. Crisis averted, everyone go home.



There's probably tons of 911 calls all the time in a single day, it's the police's job to filter them out and figure out which ones are legit and which ones are full of shit.

OK, you made me laugh.

:bow:


why are you being so patronizing about that. he's right, the Cop's job includes assessing threats, otherwise we would just send out drones to nuke out any area where people were reported to be threatening.

If I call the cops on your house for threatening to shoot out your neighbours they arent supposed to go in there and just put you down without fact checking.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Bastard Mami on December 19, 2014, 10:24:49 pm
they are not !?
/me cancels plans

until next time bob.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: MissB on December 20, 2014, 03:23:33 am

why are you being so patronizing about that. he's right, the Cop's job includes assessing threats, otherwise we would just send out drones to nuke out any area where people were reported to be threatening.

If I call the cops on your house for threatening to shoot out your neighbours they arent supposed to go in there and just put you down without fact checking.

It doesnt work that way here.  There are 300,000,000+ firearms in this country and an emergency report that someone is loading an AK-47 in a public place and waving it at children is going to be acted on. 
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 20, 2014, 10:11:02 am
Acted on, sure, you can even send the SWAT. But CHECK IF THE GUN ISN'T A GODDAMN TOY BEFORE YOU FUCKING SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE FACE. If you don't, you're a murderer, flat out. THAT is how it works : you look where you go, who you're dealing with, and you assess the threat by your own eyes BEFORE committing murder. Like Iced said, if someone calls the cops on you making false claims of that exact same nature, they're not supposed to burst in and shoot you without looking.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the whole reason they send only on pair of cops to check it out, and not directly the SWAT when they get a call about someone with a gun in a store. Because I'm pretty sure that a shoot-out at a store would warrant a bigger intervention than just a pair of cops. They're here to assess the situation, and then say if it needs more or not.
Apparently you somehow thought I meant "try and guess if it's serious before even sending someone in". That's retarded.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on December 20, 2014, 09:44:41 pm
It doesnt work that way here.  There are 300,000,000+ firearms in this country and an emergency report that someone is loading an AK-47 in a public place and waving it at children is going to be acted on.
Sorry b but that notion is ridiculous.

Its an open carry state, no matter what police gets as a report might always be a lie or a false flag.
No cop in the civilized world would go in and shoot someone down because there was a call claiming he was being a threat. Thats why you assess threats.
If there wasnt open carry you could say that there was no reason to assume a man with a gun was not a threat, but like you said, there are 300,000,000+  firearms in the coutnry, are the cops supposed to shoot everyone that carries one?

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/27645689/ft-bend-police-prosecutors-accused-of-abuse-in-swat-incident
here another instance, this one went to court, white guy taking a shower , they swatted him beat him up, tazed him, and then tried to prosecute him for resisting arrest.
He was found not guilty but had to go into bankruptcy to defend himself.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Megabyt2k2 on December 20, 2014, 11:30:18 pm
While I am going to make this a somewhat racial comment, I truly mean to make it more for it's irony and as an observation. I find it funny (read: tragically ironic) that all this police brutality is going on in the country, predominantly against black men and especially in open areas, where the suspect is 'carrying a weapon and may be a danger to others' and is then shot, or manhandled, or killed because of probable social discrimination (read: handled differently because of race, not be JUST because of race), yet every time there is a school shooting, EVERY TIME used figuratively not factually, the suspect is USUALLY a white male. And they always manage to come into the schools with guns and no one is the wiser or has any inclination that the suspect 'would ever do something like this'. But it's always the rowdy black students that are always under the watchful eyes in the schools. Mind you, usually there is a police standoff with these school shooting suspects, and they usually end up taking their own lives, but I can't help but wonder if the same would happen in a situation where the suspect WAS actually a black student?

I know this doesn't particularly pertain to the police brutality issue, but I feel it's more observation on the social discrimination that surrounds us.

I expect SOME backlash for this comment, as I'm sure that some will take this comment out of context. If need be, just ask what my point is if it wasn't clear, and I shall try to clarify.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 21, 2014, 01:44:39 am
there's no point in making this shit about race. i have no reason whatsoever to believe the cases that caused the most outrage (garner, brown) had race as a factor. they were people disobeying police. that's what led to their deaths. you could be the palest motherfucker on earth, walk the middle of the street, disobey a cop and get in a fight with him and shit would get bad really fucking fast. same with garner. the store owners called the cops because garner was selling loose cigarrettes. this wasn't a case of a cop going up to them just because they were black and suspicious. when you make anything that happens to someone of color a racist issue you're basically crying wolf. it's the same "oh you're criticizing obama well you must be a racist" logic. maybe the reason was something else. the issues here are excessive use of force from police and the legal system possibly being too biased to defend police. these are things that can be realistically worked out in a relatively short period of time. racism is a different beast. you can't police thoughtcrime. making this about race right now is not helping. everybody should be united because excessive use of force from police has an effect on everybody

http://nypost.com/2014/12/20/2-nypd-cops-shot-execution-style-in-brooklyn/
nah nevermind let's keep making this about race
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: The Aboriginal One on December 21, 2014, 08:51:41 am
Do you want me to respond to this story, friend?
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Titiln on December 21, 2014, 03:45:00 pm
sure, but i don't think there's a lot to say or debate here. i don't think the murderer represents everybody that believes police are mostly racist. i don't think the murderer saw some shit like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj4ARsxrZh8) and decided "cool, theyre right, im going to kill some fucking cops". all the people that are making this about race and generalizing how cops behave are not helping, but to be honest extremists like this one had their mind made up a long time ago
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: The Aboriginal One on December 21, 2014, 11:01:56 pm
Oh, you said what I would have.

I would debate that even though he had his mind set on it a long time ago, he did saw something like that and thought "Yeah, I should do this."

All I know about him is that he is from Baltimore, had a history of arrests involving firearms and alleged harassment, he shot his girlfriend prior to trekking to New York City, killed two cops execution style, and stood and looked at what he'd done prior to the chase and his eventual demise.

I am led to believe that he had a history of anger issues, resorting in submitting to a culture, a system, of guns, violence, and cop-hating. He might tried to escape using this culture, and eventually decided to appease those as a means of attention, to belong somewhere. This is apparent by the social media posts he'd made prior to the trip to New York. I would claim that he stood there waiting for someone to notice what he'd done.

His fight or flight response kicked in right when he heard the sirens. Instead of targeting the same group of people he had just killed, he ran, reality setting in that he is, lightly speaking, fucked. The theme of escapism continues, in this case, he physically attempts to escape.

When and only when he couldn't escape, he killed himself. Finally escaping reality, which he's been probably trying to do a good chunk of his life, if not his whole life.
---

I would make this a race issue because not because the color of the killer or the victims, but because of the color of the people who condones this.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Caddie on December 22, 2014, 06:23:50 am
I am led to believe that he had a history of anger issues, resorting in submitting to a culture, a system, of guns, violence, and cop-hating. He might tried to escape using this culture, and eventually decided to appease those as a means of attention, to belong somewhere. This is apparent by the social media posts he'd made prior to the trip to New York. I would claim that he stood there waiting for someone to notice what he'd done.

...

I would make this a race issue because not because the color of the killer or the victims, but because of the color of the people who condones this.

Completely agree. Great words, you speak the truth. You "get it". That's what I like about you.

The system is continuing. I believe it's completely intentional, too. Not to be too conspiracy theorist but I believe race is being driven and marketed the way it is, and the way it has been, intentionally by a large group of people with the goal being their own personal benefit.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Legendary DeMoNk@I on December 23, 2014, 02:17:41 am
Its unfortunate, but I knew one of the cops who got killed here in BK. The Latino cop used to work for airborne express here in NYC years back. When I used to work in the mailroom for Bank of America. He used to come make his drop offs and chat with us for a bit. He was a cool dude. It didn't really dawn on me who he was till today when a old friend who worked with me hit me on FB out of the blue today about it......Days ago when the news hit I said to my lady "Yo why that cop look so damn familiar??".....I was wondering if it was BOA but i wasnt sure ...and I be damned I was right...

Anyway im sure he was one of the good cops. But its just fucked up how things go. Im not too fond of cops because of my history with them as a teen but its a sad deal that guy got murdered for being a cop..smdh crazy small world
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Black Hatter on December 23, 2014, 02:22:04 am
Just read about this, and damn this is sad...
I am led to believe that he had a history of anger issues, resorting in submitting to a culture, a system, of guns, violence, and cop-hating. He might tried to escape using this culture, and eventually decided to appease those as a means of attention, to belong somewhere. This is apparent by the social media posts he'd made prior to the trip to New York. I would claim that he stood there waiting for someone to notice what he'd done.

...

I would make this a race issue because not because the color of the killer or the victims, but because of the color of the people who condones this.

Completely agree. Great words, you speak the truth. You "get it". That's what I like about you.

The system is continuing. I believe it's completely intentional, too. Not to be too conspiracy theorist but I believe race is being driven and marketed the way it is, and the way it has been, intentionally by a large group of people with the goal being their own personal benefit.

That actually makes sense if you look at how the issue in Ferguson is being made about race, when it should be about the police abusing the use of force. (Sorry if this sounds like a trainwreck, I haven't kept up in a while..)
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Niitris on December 25, 2014, 12:42:45 am
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fatal-cop-shooting-teen-berkeley-missouri-sparks-clashes-n274181

Quote
A white police officer shot a black teenager to death at a gas station in the city next door to Ferguson, Missouri, touching off clashes early Wednesday between demonstrators and law enforcement.

The mayor said that video from the confrontation, in the city of Berkeley, appeared to show the teenager pointing a gun at the officer, and police said a handgun was recovered at the scene. Police said the officer feared for his life.

He took pains to say that the shooting could not be compared to the police killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson or to the chokehold death of Eric Garner in New York. The mayor, who is black, pointed out that the Berkeley police department is majority-black.

An angry crowd of about 200 gathered at near the scene of the shooting, and there were angry clashes with police. A small fire broke out at a QuikTrip across the street from the Mobil but quickly went out, said John Henry, reporter with NBC affiliate KDSK. "I can see about 50 cop cars," said Bradley Rayford, a photographer at the scene. "They're fighting and scuffling, the highway is blocked with cars, people are being arrested. Trash cans are on fire."

The protesting, so much tension.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Ricepigeon on December 26, 2014, 09:08:40 pm
Quote
The mayor said that video from the confrontation, in the city of Berkeley, appeared to show the teenager pointing a gun at the officer, and police said a handgun was recovered at the scene.

This alone makes this situation completely different than what happened with Michael Brown and Eric Garner. The unfortunate thing about this was the location and timing, so I'm really not surprised that there's protesting about this, despite the protestors overlooking the glaringly obvious. I hate to say it but this time the cop was in the right.

Now THIS (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/caged-rat-man-shoots-kills-runs-over-florida-police-officer-n272566), on the other hand...
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 26, 2014, 11:08:29 pm
I'm really not surprised that there's protesting about this, despite the protestors overlooking the glaringly obvious.
From what I've seen, the protest happened very quickly after the event, long before the police released any information. The shooting was reported, the guy's friend claimed the cop was violent and shot his friend when he was running away while the police dept said the cop reacted to a gun threat, then the protest happened because of that "he said, she said", then it was reported that there was a security camera, then the mayor said the video showed the guy pull a gun, and just recently the video was made public as seen in Niitris' link (it does show the guy pulling what appears to be a gun).
The protesters must have reacted out of habit because of the general situation, the current conjunction. But it was over after before night time.

Incidentally, the friend definitely said what he said thinking it would trigger some more shit, not realizing there was a security camera. Hopefully he's in a lot of trouble now because of that.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Legendary DeMoNk@I on December 27, 2014, 12:32:03 am
I cant support that other kid who actually had a gun that time....I read about that some time ago when it first hit the news and I just SMH.....just stupid....Im all for protesting of justice but what happened to THAT kid was Justified and he asked for it^^ The Cop did his job and seriously had no other choice....

I hope folks out there don't start getting all fart headed and falling off course consciously about what they are fighting for and forget there are actually other brothas out there with bad intentions really doing crime and nonsense that put themselves in situations they don't care about...
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Iced on December 28, 2014, 05:23:00 am

Incidentally, the friend definitely said what he said thinking it would trigger some more shit, not realizing there was a security camera. Hopefully he's in a lot of trouble now because of that.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2886114/Furious-Twitter-backlash-against-prankster-pretended-best-friends-latest-police-shooting-victim-Antonio-Martin-watched-die-plugged-mixtape.html


the friend didnt even know him and fabricated the whole thing to try to plug his mixtapes.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: Legendary DeMoNk@I on December 28, 2014, 09:08:20 am
smdh
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: DKDC on December 28, 2014, 02:46:43 pm
... Okay, I hope 4chan handles this guy properly then.
Title: Re: Fergurson-missouri
Post by: The Simplistic Fubini on December 28, 2014, 03:15:14 pm
Yep, anon jumped on his ass

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2886445/Hackers-publish-personal-details-sick-Twitter-prankster-pretended-best-friends-latest-police-shooting-black-teen.html