The Mugen Fighters Guild

M.U.G.E.N Central => Your Releases, 1.0+ => Topic started by: Cruz on June 11, 2018, 09:15:46 am

Title: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 27.06.18
Post by: Cruz on June 11, 2018, 09:15:46 am
Applied various changes including the ones that Divinewolf recently added to his characters.

ALL CHARACTERS:
 - Updated to match Divinewolf's updates
 - "Tiny Buffering" System
 - Adjusted jumps
 - Few extra system fixes

CHARACTER SPECIFIC UPDATES:

Clark: <25.06.18>
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Heart: <27.06.18>
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Saki: <25.06.18>
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Shermie: <25.06.18>
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Yoko: <25.06.18>
Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

Characters with charge motions (Clark and Saki) are using an SNK charge system similar to that of Jmorphman's characters

Download (https://www.mediafire.com/folder/b8lnj5ls7ks87/Characters)
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf]
Post by: DivineWolf on June 12, 2018, 03:59:47 pm
In regards to charge commands: Haven't implemented them myself just yet, though when asking JZ about them, he told me to reference his Balrog(Bison) as he hadn't updated him to use Step 2 yet. Balrog's charge commands feel fine for his punches and headbutt special(which is a D,U charge command). So yeah, look over how JZ did it with Balrog. I'll test these and get back with you....whenever. :P
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf]
Post by: Jesuszilla on June 12, 2018, 04:28:50 pm
I’d also check your jump start time. If it’s anything less than 3 frames, charge moves will generally be hard to pull off consistently.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf]
Post by: DivineWolf on June 12, 2018, 04:37:53 pm
I’d also check your jump start time. If it’s anything less than 3 frames, charge moves will generally be hard to pull off consistently.

I'll keep this in mind myself. :P Thanks.



For the Alpha Counter high/low detection, change it to this:

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

I initially goof'd with this. Having it read var 4-5-6, instead of 3-4-5. Also, I don't use the brackets buffering anymore, because that was also a cause for larger window inputs.

Also for the Camera KO Focus, your char must also have this in their State - 2:

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

This is so the camera will be able to scroll off your defeated char.



**EDIT:

I've only DL'd Shermie currently. A few things I've noticed/suggestions:

-Busty Suplex. I suggest having p2 stay on the ground longer when slammed. They recover too fast for this to be viable most times.

-Still on Busty Suplex, she can special(maybe super?) cancel out of it when hitting p2 with it. You have safeguards in place, so luckily p2 doesn't freeze, but still. That shouldn't be a thing.

-For her Lv3, p2 recovers before she does. A simple fix would be just to have p2 go a bit higher when hit with her knee, then fall to the ground a bit slower(y.accel). Or just the latter is cool. Using the Diagup hit parameter for it would look nicer as well.

-For Diamond Dust(not EX)... The bindings look really weird on some chars, though alright on others... I know this varies from char to char, but I feel it's more the frame choices you made, rather than varying chars/the binding values themselves. I'd suggest referencing Anjel's Shermie that's hosted here. The frames used on her look a lot smoother for every char I used it on when comparing.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf]
Post by: PeXXeR on June 12, 2018, 06:49:42 pm
I second these for Shermie I tested them myself as for angel Shermie its a good Shermie  it is worth a look. I'll report if I find anything funny. Thanks for the updates.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf]
Post by: Cruz on June 13, 2018, 06:10:52 pm

- Felt like that could have been the issue since the jump start time on Divinewolf's characters is 3 frames.
After trying Balrog which did have a short and long jump start based on groove, I can say that the issue was coming from the 3 frame jump start. Saki's jump start will be 5 frames for now.


- Fixed
Would brackets buffering even be different though?
- Added that now

- Increased the frame advantage
- Should be fixed now
- The opponent goes higher now and will go into DiagUp should the animation exist
- Took a look at it and It does look overall better but I didn't like how it looked when the character is about to get launched. Also looked back at the source game and tried binding it again. Do the bindings look better now?

All character updated. Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 13.06.18
Post by: DivineWolf on June 13, 2018, 06:19:56 pm
Just to clear any confusion, for anyone who may be chiming in, you guys mean ticks not frames. He did say anything less than 3, and I default to 3. :P Though if that's too little time you feel, 5 should be good I suppose.

Would brackets buffering even be different though?

Not 100% on that. Though when I removed them, it felt better, so I'll assume it does. Why even have it, if it doesn't make a difference?

- Took a look at it and It does look overall better but I didn't like how it looked when the character is about to get launched. Also looked back at the source game and tried binding it again. Do the bindings look better now?

I'll get back with you soon.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 13.06.18
Post by: BahamianKing Gaming on June 14, 2018, 12:00:49 am
awesome! but the files giving me error when i try open them
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 13.06.18
Post by: Cruz on June 14, 2018, 04:49:38 am
NOTE: The .rar files are in RAR5 compression so if you have issues extracting, please check if you have the latest version of WinRAR.
Maybe I should add this every time I release something.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 13.06.18
Post by: BahamianKing Gaming on June 14, 2018, 07:31:37 pm
oh first time i saw this message. yea i guess i need to update my winrar. any chance you could link me to it?
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 13.06.18
Post by: DivineWolf on June 15, 2018, 03:42:42 am
awesome! but the files giving me error when i try open them

You only need Google it sir.

- Took a look at it and It does look overall better but I didn't like how it looked when the character is about to get launched. Also looked back at the source game and tried binding it again. Do the bindings look better now?

Yeah... For the most part. I'm not going to be nit-picky. It's as good as it needs to be.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 13.06.18
Post by: PeXXeR on June 18, 2018, 08:21:23 am
im having issues doing shermie's grabs like its like they have a small charge to them also on the left side (this maybe me though)
I can barely do any of the special grabs.
I can hit the same commands with Vans's Rugal or Jman's king with ease, again maybe its something on my end but I felt its worth reporting.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 13.06.18
Post by: Cruz on June 18, 2018, 05:02:08 pm
I've updated the characters to match the buffer window that Divinewolf's characters have for half circle motions. It should make command grabs easier to do.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: PeXXeR on June 18, 2018, 05:52:07 pm
With the latest update, it seems at random when her grabs come out. Vans's rugal is in the video too,because its the same buffering system right ? also just to make sure its not me being an idiot, I also checked it in KOF 2002UM steam edition and I can nail Shermie's grabs everytime. I apologize if its something on my end.

Video of Shermie and Rugal.
https://streamable.com/loo2q
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: Cruz on June 19, 2018, 03:30:09 pm
Vans's Rugal looks like it's using Step 2 of Tiny Buffering? Also it's overall structure for half circle motions is more forgiving than that of Divinewolf's version.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: Jesuszilla on June 19, 2018, 03:34:22 pm
Unless he updated Rugal after I released Alex, I doubt it uses Step 2 since that was something I came up with between Sagat and Alex.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: Niitris on June 19, 2018, 04:07:36 pm
Can confirm that Rugal doesn't, I was just messing around with those characters trying to learn how bitwise works.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: DivineWolf on June 19, 2018, 05:18:39 pm
@PeXXer:

Are you having any trouble with my Akuma's Shankunetsu fireball or Athena's reflect/command grab?



@Cruz:

I'm looking at Shermie's CMD, and you might want to try rearranging the placement of her HCB/HCF moves. Put the most difficult to use moves higher up as Mugen prioritizes code from top to bottom. I would personally put it like this:

*F.Captured(This is the hardest/has the most inputs)
*Shermie Spiral
*Diamond Dust
*Dragon Punch moves
*QCF/QCB moves

The only moves that should be above F.Captured/S.Spiral/D.Dust should be their EX variants and Supers. Lightning Lariat(doesn't matter if it's her Lv3) should be below S.Carnival and S.Flash. The buffering system takes this into account a LOT. Even more so than Mugen default buffering.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: PeXXeR on June 19, 2018, 05:47:24 pm
DW, take this with a pinch of salt  cause Im pretty bad with Athena and ive played with her twice in CVS2.
I have to double tap forward to get it to work but if I do it works everytime. Combo-wise I can hit a bunch of really fun stuff so its fine there too.

As for Shermie, if its only me having this issue, its all good.
Would be nice for more people to post what their results are.

I would love if @Vans pops in to shed some light on this too.

Edit Dunno how to tag someone.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: DivineWolf on June 19, 2018, 05:58:12 pm
You have to double tap forward to get reflect to work? Honestly, I wouldn't be able to do any of these moves on a keyboard, if that's what you're using. I play with a PS3 controller. Shermie feels OK for the most part, but rearranging the CMD would definitely help, and it's a good rule of thumb in general.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: PeXXeR on June 19, 2018, 06:08:57 pm
I really dont know what to say. Here's KoopaKoot's Terry I can hit anything with him be it on a pad or a keyboard.
https://streamable.com/ilfp3

Edit: Let me get my arcade stick unpacked and test Shermie there.
 will edit this post with results after 5 mins.

Edit again, just tested shermie with a madcatz arcade stick, its the same for me, it feels like random, tried it in kof2002um/mugen/USF4/Old school fighters like 3rd strike and the arcade stick is fine.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: DivineWolf on June 19, 2018, 06:47:14 pm
Does Koop use the buffering system? IDK, at any rate, I would like to get Vans input on this.

@Vans:

Please grace us with your presence.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: tehdevil on June 19, 2018, 06:56:48 pm

Edit Dunno how to tag someone.
here is the guide: http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/tagging-members-thread-178813.0.html

p.s. sorry for offtopic
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: Jesuszilla on June 19, 2018, 07:00:35 pm
What’s the command time in the .cmd for that particular command set to? Post the entire command here.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: DivineWolf on June 19, 2018, 07:14:35 pm
It may need more time, idk:

Spoiler, click to toggle visibilty

8 frames for the buffer itself.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: Jesuszilla on June 19, 2018, 07:16:42 pm
20 should be plenty for that, though why the release on the first direction? Capcom always has that as a hold.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: PeXXeR on June 19, 2018, 07:39:22 pm
Does Koop use the buffering system? IDK, at any rate, I would like to get Vans input on this.

@Vans:

Please grace us with your presence.

I think it  does, it has that buffering kofy file like all of Vans's chars
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: DivineWolf on June 19, 2018, 08:31:23 pm
Not sure really. How do you suggest I express it?
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: Vans on June 23, 2018, 09:16:37 am
Hello! I am sorry for being so late to reply, I was a bit swamped with work.

Actually there are two things that might be making that command more difficult to do.

- The first is that in KOF there is plenty of time to perform the joystick movements. For half circle motions this is usually between 21 and 24 frames. This can be measured using an emulator with a step framing function as follows:

Perform the HCB command by doing f (3), df(3), d(3), db(3), b(3), button  The (3) denotes that the direction should be held for 3 frames. If it works, this means that you have at least 18 frames to input a half circle motion. Increase the time spent holding one direction by one frame, and test it by doing:

Code:
f (4), df(3), d(3), db(3), b(3),
f (4), df(4), d(3), db(3), b(3),
f (4), df(4), d(4), db(3), b(3),
f (4), df(4), d(4), db(4), b(3),
f (4), df(4), d(4), db(4), b(4),
f (5), df(4), d(4), db(4), b(4)...

And so on, until the move fails. The last pattern you obtain will let you know how much time the game allows for the player to enter the command and still get the special move.

This is the time you should be using in the "time" parameter when you define them in the .CMD. Remember, changes in this parameter define how long the player has to input the directions on the joystick, so this will have a direct impact on how strict they feel.

- The second and very important thing is that in KOF it is possible to "cheat" diagonals because the official NeoGeo hardware utilized an 8-way joystick. (http://mugenguild.com/forum/msg.2344302) In general most SNK joystick motions will feel "lighter" and easier to perform due to this design difference.

In modern fighting games the diagonals are seldom required to be 100% strict, even in Capcom games. So one possibility would be to redesign the command to be a little more lenient in this direction.

One compromise could be turning the command into a "power geyser" style half circle. That is, something like

Code:
 ~F, DF,$D,B 

This retains the strictness of the first diagonal (which is usually input by the player) but becomes forgiving in the second. Not too strict and not too easy.

I hope this helps.


Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 18.06.18
Post by: DivineWolf on June 24, 2018, 10:11:44 pm
Yes, it does help. Thank you. I'm going to go with the "half cheat" method you gave there. It is a good middle for not being too easy, though less strict as well.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 25.06.18
Post by: Cruz on June 25, 2018, 04:50:35 pm
Thanks Vans for this information!
The buffering system has been updated.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 25.06.18
Post by: PeXXeR on June 26, 2018, 03:04:11 pm
Thanks Cruz, Vans and DW everything works correctly now, good job !
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 25.06.18
Post by: WumpaFruit96 on June 27, 2018, 12:15:26 pm
I think you need to fix your palette problem, Cruz...
(https://i.imgur.com/m1GhfeC.png)
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 27.06.18
Post by: Cruz on June 27, 2018, 05:27:52 pm
- Should be fixed now. Thanks!

Are there any other issues?
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 27.06.18
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 03, 2018, 03:00:27 am
Oh right, one more thing, guys:

Hope you implemented AI in your updated characters, otherwise they're going to stand there and do nothing due to how buffering works. That's just how the cookie crumbles. You absolutely must implement AI if you use this buffering system.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 27.06.18
Post by: DivineWolf on July 03, 2018, 03:43:58 pm
I knew that from the beginning. Once I implement it into everyone I might do something. Though it'll just be literally Mugen's default "AI". AI is an outsource thing for me.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 27.06.18
Post by: K4thos on July 03, 2018, 03:59:55 pm
Quote
AI is an outsource thing for me.
Not sure if I understand this sentence. If by outsource you mean something that you prefer others to provide, why exactly you never internalize those AI patches? Each your update likely breaks all external patches created for your characters, so we're at situation that people who are not actively playing as your characters, but against them, are better suited sticking with char versions that are several years old. Don't get your approach to AI, really.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 27.06.18
Post by: Jesuszilla on July 03, 2018, 05:08:05 pm
Not necessarily. The buffering update alone would not affect AI behavior. Only things such as move property changes would.

Besides, I’m sure he still knows how to update anything in AI that looks suspect.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 27.06.18
Post by: DivineWolf on July 03, 2018, 05:09:13 pm
I don't have a approach to it, because I don't care about it. Though by outsource, I mean someone I choose, not just anyone. Then it would be apart of the char. Though more than likely, I'll have to do it myself, to keep them Win compatible.
Title: Re: "Tiny Buffering" Update [Divinewolf] UPDATE: 27.06.18
Post by: Cruz on July 03, 2018, 06:10:08 pm
Haven't really looked into AI since my characters doesn't have it. I was thinking if I did do AI, I'd use a helper if that was a viable approach.