The Mugen Fighters Guild

M.U.G.E.N Central => M.U.G.E.N Discussion => Topic started by: Marshall on September 24, 2019, 10:33:15 am

Title: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: Marshall on September 24, 2019, 10:33:15 am
As the title describes, does anyone know/accept/heard of the tier list system in MUGEN?

I saw Mugen chinese&japanese&korean players using this system for a long period of time, however when I asked same question to english-speaking players, most of them said that they do not really accept/heard of this system before.

Most of the characters now are only defined by 'normal' or 'cheap'

Is it neseccary to make different level characters into more small segments?

Maybe it will be more convinence to identify which character is best to battle with another similar levels, just like the rule of Weight class in Boxing and other Sport competitions...

I am sorry if there is any offensive sentences!
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: Marshall on September 24, 2019, 10:41:47 am
I've also seen other post and replies by other players
http://mugenguild.com/forum/topics/m-u-g-e-n-tier-list-169327.0.html

Most of their opinion is about 'it is pointless/useless/not worth to make a tier due to there are so many new characters & characters can be updated at anytime'

I think this sounds right but there still are more advantages to make a tier to tidy up all the stuff, like a summary...
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: Kolossoni on September 24, 2019, 10:44:46 am
Personally, I find this almost impossible due to 2 main reasons:

1) Too many edits

2) AI differences

problem is, that MUGEN allows direct editing of damage values and AI's which ultimately makes this tier list thing obsolete.

Why give them a tier when someone can change it right away?
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: Marshall on September 24, 2019, 10:49:03 am
Personally, I find this almost impossible due to 2 main reasons:

1) Too many edits

2) AI differences

problem is, that MUGEN allows direct editing of damage values and AI's which ultimately makes this tier list thing obsolete.

Why give them a tier when someone can change it right away?

I think you are right, but have you seen this?( I found from a youtuber)
https://ibb.co/Vj3jQMM

If i did not guess it wrong, this is the tier list in korean... Why did people accept this then? That makes me always feel really confused..
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: Kolossoni on September 24, 2019, 11:37:51 am
Personally, I find this almost impossible due to 2 main reasons:

1) Too many edits

2) AI differences

problem is, that MUGEN allows direct editing of damage values and AI's which ultimately makes this tier list thing obsolete.

Why give them a tier when someone can change it right away?

I think you are right, but have you seen this?( I found from a youtuber)
https://ibb.co/Vj3jQMM

If i did not guess it wrong, this is the tier list in korean... Why did people accept this then? That makes me always feel really confused..

After reading the texts on the image you uploaded, it clearly shows that the person (or perhaps the community) who decided to come up with something so... well... crude had no standards whatsoever when this was created.

All the text reads is how simultaneously a rank gets "higher" as more difficult an AI becomes.

So basically it reads:

(NORMAL) = Standard + fair AI with weaker stats.
(STRONG) = Standard + weaker stats, but with strong AI.
(UGLY) = Stronger AI than the previous two.
(CRAZY) = Literally crazy AI + stats.
(GOD) = Uses codes that undirectly buffs the character.
(Exception) = OPAF. Outside of this rank/world.

You see, even this tier list makes no sense whatsoever.
I find it childish to make a tier list for something anybody can regulate simply by changing the numbers in a value.
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: Marshall on September 24, 2019, 12:13:47 pm
Personally, I find this almost impossible due to 2 main reasons:

1) Too many edits

2) AI differences

problem is, that MUGEN allows direct editing of damage values and AI's which ultimately makes this tier list thing obsolete.

Why give them a tier when someone can change it right away?

I think you are right, but have you seen this?( I found from a youtuber)
https://ibb.co/Vj3jQMM

If i did not guess it wrong, this is the tier list in korean... Why did people accept this then? That makes me always feel really confused..

After reading the texts on the image you uploaded, it clearly shows that the person (or perhaps the community) who decided to come up with something so... well... crude had no standards whatsoever when this was created.

All the text reads is how simultaneously a rank gets "higher" as more difficult an AI becomes.

So basically it reads:

(NORMAL) = Standard + fair AI with weaker stats.
(STRONG) = Standard + weaker stats, but with strong AI.
(UGLY) = Stronger AI than the previous two.
(CRAZY) = Literally crazy AI + stats.
(GOD) = Uses codes that undirectly buffs the character.
(Exception) = OPAF. Outside of this rank/world.

You see, even this tier list makes no sense whatsoever.
I find it childish to make a tier list for something anybody can regulate simply by changing the numbers in a value.

Oh, thanks for your translation, that is helpful for understanding
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: Umezono on September 24, 2019, 12:42:49 pm
Yeah there’s no point of this outside a full game environment or a closed roster. Otherwise it’s impossible.
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: PlasmoidThunder on September 24, 2019, 12:47:56 pm
It only makes sense to form a tier list for enclosed games. MUGEN is far too global of an environment to feasibly tier every single character, especially when you'd need to keep updating the tier list when new characters are released and when existing characters are updated. Tier lists are often based on matchups, so to get even remotely accurate data, you'd need to have pro players use every single character against everyone else over the course of several matches.
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: Umezono on September 24, 2019, 12:52:35 pm
If you look at Saltybet they’ve probably built the closest approximation to what you’re looking for. They maintain a closed roster and have archived the results of probably hundreds of thousands of matches though it would be based on AI.
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: Nep Heart on September 24, 2019, 01:50:46 pm
MUGEN tier lists don't work because it misses the whole point of how tier lists work on actial fighting games; match-up spread. At least in a closed environment such as a full game, match-up spreads do exist. Also, AI is a terrible way to determine tiers because you can have an underpowered character wipe the floor with a broken character simply because the former's AI is more competent.
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: beterhans on September 24, 2019, 07:46:01 pm
As the title describes, does anyone know/accept/heard of the tier list system in MUGEN?

I saw Mugen chinese&japanese&korean players using this system for a long period of time, however when I asked same question to english-speaking players, most of them said that they do not really accept/heard of this system before.

Most of the characters now are only defined by 'normal' or 'cheap'

Is it neseccary to make different level characters into more small segments?

Maybe it will be more convinence to identify which character is best to battle with another similar levels, just like the rule of Weight class in Boxing and other Sport competitions...

I am sorry if there is any offensive sentences!

The Tier list does NOT reflect how good a character is.

How strong a character is determined by 2 factors
1. the body / like a car (move that the char can do,  invensible time?, how hard how fast can the char hit others, how many combo can the char do)
2. the AI / like the driver (when to do what)

for example
Now you have
a stupid driver(AI) with a rocket(cheap character) which he can just push a button and win the race. (the top tier)
an ok driver(AI) with a F1 race car(boss character)
an amateur(AI) with a Lamborghini (normal character)
a Pro driver(AI) with a normal family car(weak character)
and
the Best driver(AI) with a bike (kfm)

under current tier system the stupid driver(AI) will be at the top.

For me
the ideal ranking for character (body) is
how balance it can be. how many feature it have. less bug, reasonable damage. and you should able to enjoy it.

the ideal ranking for AI is
drive a reasonable body and act like a Pro human player.
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: President Devon on September 25, 2019, 01:36:35 am
The Tier list does NOT reflect how good a character is.
A tier list is about which characters have the best tools to win, as a guideline for new players to pick up so it should 100% reflect how good a character is.

No other tier list i've seen in any other part of the FGC has AI as any kind of component of it.
Title: Re: MUGEN character tier list
Post by: Mirage Jester on September 28, 2019, 03:28:24 pm
The only tier list for mugen that makes a lick of sense is the Saltybet one which is for AI. You have X, S, A , B & P levels.

X is for broken, uber charcters that don't lose ever e.g Rare Akuma
S to B Have some AI or moves that make them competant, S being on the verge of being super cheap while B is more your standard AI.
P + Potato, no AI or don't put up much of fight.

The S to B tiers fluctuate as if they win or lose 15 fights they get upgraded or downgraded.